X-men vs avengers

[Stranglehold-prime]

Just look at what Magneto can do.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/24155...super_super.png

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/24155...npjk8_super.png

[Guest sirmethos]

I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds like an alternate future or something. And if it is, then you can't really use that as a feat for 616 Magneto.

 

since Marvel has stated that he has the same powers as the 'standard' Magneto, the feat should still be applicable, since it was a feat of his Powers.

 

if he had taken wolverine down in a hand to hand fight, or built some kind of uber machine, then we could start talking about the feat being invalid, since those are feats of skills, and those change over the years.

 

 

 

for example, Magneto-AoA, has the exact same powers as Magneto-616, he is just weaker. thus, anything Mag-AoA can do with his powers, Mag-616 can do as well.

 

when the powers are Identical, the feat still works. as long as it is a feat that shows off his powers.

[Guest force_echo]

not insults. i was actually trying to help you.

 

once you actually sit down with a physics teacher and have him/her explain some things to you, you'll have a better understanding of how things work, and you will be a better debater.

 

everyone can look at wiki or other websites, but reading them is not the same as understanding them.

 

 

my brother has some bookmarks to sites with quantum physics that i can't even begin to understand, but i can Read them just fine.

 

 

there's nothing wrong with understanding your own limitations, and trying to fix them. but if you want to continue making yourself look ignorant, then that's your choice -shrug-

 

 

 

since you ask for information, here it is:

 

Electro-Magnetism is the force that keeps Protons and Electrons together.

 

the Electro-Magnetic bonds holding the Electrons to the Protons switch to allow Electrons to move to other atoms when atoms are put together in molecules.

 

the strength of the Electro-Magnetic bonds remain the same, even when the bond is switched to allow Electrons to move to other atoms.

 

 

 

Iron Man is protected from direct, large scale, magnetic manipulation of his armor.

 

 

 

according to the scan the armor is has simply been De-magnetized. this is not "an antimagnetic field", it is a small change in the atomic structure of the armor. this, in no way, changes the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Electons and Protons together. nor does it in any way, prevent manipulation other than large scale magnetic manipulation.

 

 

Magneto controls not just Magnetism(which the armor is protected against) but Electro-Magnetism, and all forms of electro-magnetic radiation, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. he has also been shown to manipulate gravity to a certain point. and it has been stated that as long as Magneto is in good physical condition, his powers are "for all practical purposes, limitless." - Marvel.com

 

 

 

all this, put together with Magneto's skills and intellect, shows that. 1. Iron Mans armor is not protected against sub-atomic manipulation, like removing the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Protons and Electrons together. 2. Magneto is more than capable of doing it in terms of both power and skills.

 

 

to repeat my bottom line: Magneto, with little more than a thought, removes the electro-magnetic bonds in Iron Mans armor, and the armor dissolves around him, leaving Tony Stark, a slightly enhanced normal human, who is little more than an annoyance in this fight.

So you don't believe the fact that metals have electron flow moving between them. OK, well than take it up with whoever wrote my science book, and take it up with a teacher who studied physics at Cambrige university. I'm more inclined to believe those two sources than you, no offense. Its a fact that a metal has tightly grouped atoms with a constant interflow of electrons which give it its conductivity and strength, and that do to this, disengaging inherent charges of an atom is not as easy. You have one feat of Magneto dissoving subatomic charges, and thats far in some alternate future. The wiki nor marvel.com lists this as an inherent power, what makes you think that he could alter charges on such a minute, fine scale, and disengage everyone of the trillion upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of electrostatic atomic bonds that make up Iron Man's armor? Its obviously not that easy, as no matter what kind of magnetic force (and due to magnets located in particle accelerators we can muster up quite a bit of magnetic force) that real worl d scientists have applied to atoms today, to my knowledge we've never been able to actually disengage an electron from an atom. The only thing that will do this is a greater proclivity of atoms, as shown by chemical reactions. If we could actually do that, there would be no need for chemists as we can restructure compounds by ourselves with supermagnets. But alas, we have not been able to do this.

[Guest sirmethos]

So you don't believe the fact that metals have electron flow moving between them. OK, well than take it up with whoever wrote my science book, and take it up with a teacher who studied physics at Cambrige university. I'm more inclined to believe those two sources than you, no offense. Its a fact that a metal has tightly grouped atoms with a constant interflow of electrons which give it its conductivity and strength, and that do to this, disengaging inherent charges of an atom is not as easy. You have one feat of Magneto dissoving subatomic charges, and thats far in some alternate future. The wiki nor marvel.com lists this as an inherent power, what makes you think that he could alter charges on such a minute, fine scale, and disengage everyone of the trillion upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of electrostatic atomic bonds that make up Iron Man's armor? Its obviously not that easy, as no matter what kind of magnetic force (and due to magnets located in particle accelerators we can muster up quite a bit of magnetic force) that real worl d scientists have applied to atoms today, to my knowledge we've never been able to actually disengage an electron from an atom. The only thing that will do this is a greater proclivity of atoms, as shown by chemical reactions. If we could actually do that, there would be no need for chemists as we can restructure compounds by ourselves with supermagnets. But alas, we have not been able to do this.

 

 

try actually Reading, what i posted:

 

Electro-Magnetism is the force that keeps Protons and Electrons together.

 

the Electro-Magnetic bonds holding the Electrons to the Protons switch to allow Electrons to move to other atoms when atoms are put together in molecules.

 

the strength of the Electro-Magnetic bonds remain the same, even when the bond is switched to allow Electrons to move to other atoms.

 

 

yes, i am fully aware that electrons flow from atom to atom in metals, i even addressed that in my post.

 

 

if you don't understand what i post, just ask and i'll explain it in more simple terms with shorter words if that is what it takes.

 

 

 

as for your point about magnetic force in modern science, what we have done is provide MORE magnetic force. what magneto does is REMOVE the electro-magnetic bonds.

 

 

 

i'd like to repeat and underline my earlier point about the difference in Reading, and Understanding scientific material. and once again advice that you sit down with a physics teacher if you intent to continue getting into debates around this topic(or similar ones for that matter).

[Guest Omega11]

since Marvel has stated that he has the same powers as the 'standard' Magneto, the feat should still be applicable, since it was a feat of his Powers.

 

if he had taken wolverine down in a hand to hand fight, or built some kind of uber machine, then we could start talking about the feat being invalid, since those are feats of skills, and those change over the years.

 

 

 

for example, Magneto-AoA, has the exact same powers as Magneto-616, he is just weaker. thus, anything Mag-AoA can do with his powers, Mag-616 can do as well.

 

when the powers are Identical, the feat still works. as long as it is a feat that shows off his powers.

 

1. As you yourself just stated, an alternate version of Magneto(while possessing the same type of powers) does not necessarily possess the same level of power that 616 Magneto does. This alternate Magneto could have had his powers boosted(even slightly) by some event that occured in his universe but not in Marvel 616(or the lack of an event that occured in Marvel 616).

 

2. Different universes typically produce different experiences for the people in them, this usually leads to a different outlook on many things. For example, if in an alternate universe, my family was brutally murdered before my very eyes when I was 6 years old, I would probably have grown up to be a very different person than I am today. Obviously this example is extreme, but even everyday experiences can mold how we feel and think about things. So Malterneto(yeah, that was lame...curse you Fringe!) may have had differing experiences from 616 Magneto which causes him to not only think of using his powers in that manner, but also causes him to be okay with doing it and perhaps using it as a first strike maneuver instead of a last resort, etc.

 

Bottom line: alternate universe feats rely on too many assumptions to be realistically applied to their mainstream counterparts.

[Guest sirmethos]

1. As you yourself just stated, an alternate version of Magneto(while possessing the same type of powers) does not necessarily possess the same level of power that 616 Magneto does. This alternate Magneto could have had his powers boosted(even slightly) by some event that occured in his universe but not in Marvel 616(or the lack of an event that occured in Marvel 616).

 

2. Different universes typically produce different experiences for the people in them, this usually leads to a different outlook on many things. For example, if in an alternate universe, my family was brutally murdered before my very eyes when I was 6 years old, I would probably have grown up to be a very different person than I am today. Obviously this example is extreme, but even everyday experiences can mold how we feel and think about things. So Malterneto(yeah, that was lame...curse you Fringe!) may have had differing experiences from 616 Magneto which causes him to not only think of using his powers in that manner, but also causes him to be okay with doing it and perhaps using it as a first strike maneuver instead of a last resort, etc.

 

Bottom line: alternate universe feats rely on too many assumptions to be realistically applied to their mainstream counterparts.

 

 

the Magneto of Wolverine: Future Imperfect, has the same power level as the 616 version. infact a character in the comics comments that he(magneto) is getting old, as a reference to a drop in his powers. the same thing happened before Magneto was rejuvenated in the 616 reality, he was getting older, and weaker, then got rejuvenated and regained his full power.

 

 

while you make some good points, the main person i'm debating with is Force_Echo, who has on earlier occasions stated that he agrees with my point about alternate versions. "when the powers are Identical, the feat still works."

 

thus, it is a perfectly acceptable feat for showing his capabilities in this debate.

 

 

 

if you would like to enter the debate yourself, and say that Magneto is incapable of taking Iron Man down, then i would use other feats, but for now, i have no reason to.

[Guest force_echo]

try actually Reading, what i posted:

 

 

 

 

yes, i am fully aware that electrons flow from atom to atom in metals, i even addressed that in my post.

 

 

if you don't understand what i post, just ask and i'll explain it in more simple terms with shorter words if that is what it takes.

 

 

 

as for your point about magnetic force in modern science, what we have done is provide MORE magnetic force. what magneto does is REMOVE the electro-magnetic bonds.

 

 

 

i'd like to repeat and underline my earlier point about the difference in Reading, and Understanding scientific material. and once again advice that you sit down with a physics teacher if you intent to continue getting into debates around this topic(or similar ones for that matter).

You don't understand ANYTHING. Its like debating with a *vulgarity*ing two year old. You were reffering to atom transfer in making molecules in your post, thats not nearly what I mean AT ALL. Ex. if you have a black of gold, its not a compund or molecule its just plain gold atoms. The atoms, because it is a metal are bound tightly together and the electrons consistently move between fields freely, how is Magneto going to pinpoint individual electrostatic charges when electrons are constantly flowing? More proof that you nothing about physics. Magneto can't just make electric bonds magically dissapear, there needs to be a greater electrical charge to disengage electric bonds, energy cannot be destroyed, one of the basic principles of physics. Magneto needs to apply a greater magnetic charge to disengage the magnetic charge already present, even he has to follow the laws of physics. How do you think molecules are formed? You think the bonds magically dissapear and the electrons wander over to a new atom or some shit? There is a greater charge on another atom than that on the first, so the atoms resolve it by either sharing an atom (covalent) or giving an atom (ionic). Magneto can't just dissapeate electromagnetic energy. He's not God.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Cyclops was his most powerful when he could level a mountain. He can take a Sentinel? that was child's play.

 

Wolverine at his most destructive to earth would be when he has his metal claws and is his prime, (age, speed, etc.)

Wolverine at his most durable is when he has no metal. His healing was super powered, made Sabretooth's seem like Spiderman's healing is to his.

 

Gambit-would solo everyone including Thor imo

 

Rogue at her most powerful is when all her past powers come out. She would be awesome, or has it happened?

 

Namor is powerful, but he seems to be the Vegeta of Marvel, the tough guy who gets beat up when it counts, but still has a big mouth.

Still strong though lol

 

Thor should be when he is classic for said reasons by Marvel and etc.

 

Storm is cool if she ever did anything,

 

Captain would own Wolverine

 

Strange should not be here, he can solo everyone, but if this is recent, Cable at his medium level could send him home as a woman

 

Ironman is powerful/tech is great. however, even his armor has limits and that being said Storm would prove him his bane. She could fog his suit up from the inside, take his oxygen away from his lungs, and if he shoots energy she could sit there and take it hahahaha then fall and die.

 

he is the wild card, because Tony is a cheap tactical guy, he would send his dumb SHIELD dudes and take it over, or he would get some PIS and render everone cuffed and locked up.

 

Avengers lack numbers, those numbers are powerful, but if picked apart, they win.

 

As a leader I would see that each strategy is a timed event. So Wolverine is to be used to take out the weak ones, Hawkeye etc.. Hawkeye better take out Storm and whoever he can quick.

 

Magneto could just use Captain A's shield and shape it into cuffs to cuff everyone then they cannot break out. Anti gravity suit does not mean that it is not proned to reshaping due to gravity. He could just make gravity around ironman's chest be 500 times earths or something

 

Mag and Namor make this a great fight that will drag for 4-20 mins

[Guest Omega11]

the Magneto of Wolverine: Future Imperfect, has the same power level as the 616 version.

 

Is there an actual quote or statement somewhere which specifically says that?

 

infact a character in the comics comments that he(magneto) is getting old, as a reference to a drop in his powers. the same thing happened before Magneto was rejuvenated in the 616 reality, he was getting older, and weaker, then got rejuvenated and regained his full power.

 

All this proves is that this alternate Magneto may not be as strong as he used to be. But that Magneto could have originally been at 200% power level of 616 Magneto, and is now only at 150%. You can't take anything for granted.

[Guest force_echo]

Plus, noones refuted my analysis on how Avengers would win.

[Guest force_echo]

Cyclops was his most powerful when he could level a mountain. He can take a Sentinel? that was child's play.

 

He can punch through a mountain, not level the entire thing, huge difference, its still an amazing feat though.

 

Wolverine at his most destructive to earth would be when he has his metal claws and is his prime, (age, speed, etc.)

Wolverine at his most durable is when he has no metal. His healing was super powered, made Sabretooth's seem like Spiderman's healing is to his.

 

Gambit-would solo everyone including Thor imo

 

What the hell?

 

Rogue at her most powerful is when all her past powers come out. She would be awesome, or has it happened?

 

Namor is powerful, but he seems to be the Vegeta of Marvel, the tough guy who gets beat up when it counts, but still has a big mouth.

Still strong though lol

 

Thor should be when he is classic for said reasons by Marvel and etc.

 

Storm is cool if she ever did anything,

 

Captain would own Wolverine

 

In a comic book yes, but not on CBUB.

 

Strange should not be here, he can solo everyone, but if this is recent, Cable at his medium level could send him home as a woman

 

You're overstating Cable's powers, to my knowledge, I don't think he has the ability to change someone's gender.

 

Ironman is powerful/tech is great. however, even his armor has limits and that being said Storm would prove him his bane. She could fog his suit up from the inside, take his oxygen away from his lungs, and if he shoots energy she could sit there and take it hahahaha then fall and die.

 

he is the wild card, because Tony is a cheap tactical guy, he would send his dumb SHIELD dudes and take it over, or he would get some PIS and render everone cuffed and locked up.

 

By "cheap tactical guy" you mean one of the greatest battle strategists ever, on par with spiderman, than yes. Iron Man's armor is pressurized, and Storm's lightning will be nothing to his shields. Conversly, Storm has no defense against Iron Man's repulsors.

 

Avengers lack numbers, those numbers are powerful, but if picked apart, they win.

 

As a leader I would see that each strategy is a timed event. So Wolverine is to be used to take out the weak ones, Hawkeye etc.. Hawkeye better take out Storm and whoever he can quick.

 

Magneto could just use Captain A's shield and shape it into cuffs to cuff everyone then they cannot break out. Anti gravity suit does not mean that it is not proned to reshaping due to gravity. He could just make gravity around ironman's chest be 500 times earths or something

 

You can't mold Cap's shield....

 

Mag and Namor make this a great fight that will drag for 4-20 mins

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

I mean Gambit being able to blow anything up by seeing it equals solo'ing everyone.

 

 

Cable could not change genders but could make Strange think he is a woman.

 

and Ironman being a strategists has no bearing on sending soldiers in. Captain could use that too, but he rather use his wits in battle and not a spectator with an armor suit.

[Guest force_echo]

I mean Gambit being able to blow anything up by seeing it equals solo'ing everyone.

 

 

Cable could not change genders but could make Strange think he is a woman.

 

and Ironman being a strategists has no bearing on sending soldiers in. Captain could use that too, but he rather use his wits in battle and not a spectator with an armor suit.

No he can't? Why are we using the most powerful versions? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the most recent versions?

[kainboa]

No he can't? Why are we using the most powerful versions? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the most recent versions?

 

well within the first 5 posts of this thread, it was established to use the most powerful versions of each character, and nobody argued that they shouldn't until now.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

No he can't? Why are we using the most powerful versions? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the most recent versions?

 

 

Oh i thought we were. In that case Avengers win lol

[Guest Omega11]

well within the first 5 posts of this thread, it was established to use the most powerful versions of each character, and nobody argued that they shouldn't until now.

 

As I've been saying, the line-ups indicate current(or at least, very recent) versions of the characters.

 

But apparently everyone is more interested in discussing their most powerful versions.

 

Most powerful versions I'd say Avengers easily, as Rune Force Thor or Dr. Plot Device could solo.

 

Current versions I'm not completely up to date on everyone's abilities, but I think I'd give the Avengers the edge.

[Guest xman4life]

Dr. Strange and Thor?

 

Cable's gonna have to be at his "Hold Silver Surfer & a city" level just to keep up. Still, Avengers take it in the end.

 

I am willing to say tie because cyclops NOW is as big of a strategist as cap! Check second coming and when osborn tried to take over utopia or even curse of the mutants)

Namor has damn near beaten the avengers by his self

Magneto has beaten thor in the ultimate universe already

And also how bad ass cable is he can take on almost anyone. And cable in the match has all his abilities.

 

So tie or a looooooooooooong drawn out fight either way with a lot of casualties and collateral damage

[Guest xman4life]

Plus, noones refuted my analysis on how Avengers would win.

Why do people think rouge is less powerful now? She can absorb MULTIPLE powers at once up to like 8 so..... That already makes it an interesting fight! Magneto has beaten the avengers in the ultimate universe and the regular one! Namor already beat the avengers already WITh thor. Cable is a wrecking ball already and wolverine could kill half of them singlehandly.

[Guest Bladephyre]

Why are people arguing about Iron Man and Magneto. Magneto will not waste time with Iron Man he will be occupied with Thor. Iron Man gets dropped like a stone anyway, Cable has telekenisis and simply uses it to crush the man INSIDE the armor. Who cares how tough the armor is when you can just ignore it.

 

Also Thor will have major issues when Magneto take his hammer and beats most of the avengers to death with it.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Why are people arguing about Iron Man and Magneto. Magneto will not waste time with Iron Man he will be occupied with Thor. Iron Man gets dropped like a stone anyway, Cable has telekenisis and simply uses it to crush the man INSIDE the armor. Who cares how tough the armor is when you can just ignore it.

 

Also Thor will have major issues when Magneto take his hammer and beats most of the avengers to death with it.

 

 

 

Are we going by the most powerful versions? In that case Magneto would have used his armor to take out Vision, Quicksilver, and Pym, etc.. Thor Odin Force would kill everyone. But Classic Thor would lose to classic Magneto

[Guest LoneWolf]

Are we going by the most powerful versions? In that case Magneto would have used his armor to take out Vision, Quicksilver, and Pym, etc.. Thor Odin Force would kill everyone. But Classic Thor would lose to classic Magneto

 

Yes. If most powerful versions are being used, Thor wins it for his team.

 

Also Wolverine:Enemy of the State was ridiculous... Wolverine taking on the F4 and beating most of them. Gorgon was cool though.