Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)

[Guest Bloody Freak]

Heh, my apologies. I meant "just saying" as "here's my opinion that I don't feel like putting any logic behind." I suppose that's a cop out, eh?

 

Well, I've been in debates with you before... and it sucks. I already feel like I lost before it started...

 

But anyway, I feel it's like this... Elites would win in a war like setting, a predator in a one-on-one like setting. This is strictly because we haven't seen the predators in the former. I don't know if they have different tactics or technology suited for warfare. Their current arsenal is meant for hunting and wouldn't help much on a full-scale battlefield.

 

The predators aren't dependent on cloaks, in fact, they disable them in order to achieve greater honor in battle... And, I wouldn't call the cloak a crutch, unless you mean it in the same sense as a man with a broken leg becomes more effective when he's given a crutch. Predator + cloak = Raised effectiveness, yes. You take away the cloak and he's still a very capable hunter. It sounds like your just saying it's unfair...

 

That's almost like saying "At least they don't use plasma casters that blow up towers and smart discs that cut through anything." That would basically be conceding that the predator would win and instead of saying it you cross your arms, stomp your feet, and whine "it's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair!"

 

But yes, the shields of the elites seem to give them a distinctive edge in a war setting. In a setting that favors a hunter not a soldier, the predator would have that edge. The elites have faced invisible enemies before, yes, but that doesn't mean the threat is not still there. Steve Irwin handled stingrays before so obviously nothing could go wrong, right?

[Skirmisher]

Any one who uses low kilojoule plasma weapons won't be killing a Yautja anytime soon.

Actually you are correct in stating it's low Kilojoule for the whole magnitude of Kilo that is... But based on Weapons Displayed in the Field of Combat, that's much more like Moderate Tens of Kilojoules. Which leads me to think that the Output stated for their weapons is Per shot, rather than per second. Even though conventional Math dictates that it should be how you say it is, based on Observation of the Weapon in the field it seems that Bungie isn't really good at conventional math that much...

 

Besides, Rice... All you have are numbers, I have a Feat... What actually happens generates more accurate numbers then random statements.

 

So that's 20,000 joules MINIMUM, to 45,000 joules MAXIMUM per shot. And that makes sense. It fits with all the data, and actually makes a Heat Based weapon usable in the field of battle against armour that are designed against Heat Based Weapons.

 

I believe that Bungies "output" is per shot rather than the standard "per second" for the gun, Observation has backed this up.

 

Not only that, but by your reasoning, the faster the gun shoots the less damage it will deal, however this has Never been demonstrated, nor has anyone ever talked about this "fact"... leading further credence to my theory that Bungie just screwed up that last part of their numbers.

[Skirmisher]

Heh, my apologies. I meant "just saying" as "here's my opinion that I don't feel like putting any logic behind." I suppose that's a cop out, eh?

 

Well, I've been in debates with you before... and it sucks. I already feel like I lost before it started...

 

But anyway, I feel it's like this... Elites would win in a war like setting, a predator in a one-on-one like setting. This is strictly because we haven't seen the predators in the former. I don't know if they have different tactics or technology suited for warfare. Their current arsenal is meant for hunting and wouldn't help much on a full-scale battlefield.

 

The predators aren't dependent on cloaks, in fact, they disable them in order to achieve greater honor in battle... And, I wouldn't call the cloak a crutch, unless you mean it in the same sense as a man with a broken leg becomes more effective when he's given a crutch. Predator + cloak = Raised effectiveness, yes. You take away the cloak and he's still a very capable hunter. It sounds like your just saying it's unfair...

 

That's almost like saying "At least they don't use plasma casters that blow up towers and smart discs that cut through anything." That would basically be conceding that the predator would win and instead of saying it you cross your arms, stomp your feet, and whine "it's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair!"

 

But yes, the shields of the elites seem to give them a distinctive edge in a war setting. In a setting that favors a hunter not a soldier, the predator would have that edge. The elites have faced invisible enemies before, yes, but that doesn't mean the threat is not still there. Steve Irwin handled stingrays before so obviously nothing could go wrong, right?

True, but the fact remains... Elites could take several hits from a Plasma Caster, multiple times, and keep on fighting at peak effectiveness.

 

A Predator even cloaked can still be hit by massed fire, and Elites have weapons that are as Damaging as a Plasma Caster, but with a higher rate of fire. They can achieve that massed fire.

 

If the Preds use Hit and Run Tactics, then they will give their position away with their first shot, allowing the Elites to Suppress the area with mass fire. Not only that but if the Predator fires from within at least 30m, the Elites will see them on their motion radar, and if the Predators fire from beyond 30m the Elite still has a good chance of Evading the attack if they see it.

 

During the Hit and Run attack the likelihood of a Predator Casualty is relatively high compared to an Elite Casualty. With a Pred going down from at least one Plasma Rifle hit, or at least being significantly wounded, their numbers and effectiveness will diminish. However Elites with their shields could just seek cover for a mere handful of Seconds to Fully Recharge their Shields, as if they never had taken a hit.

 

These facts give Elites a MAJOR advantage over the Predators in Any setting.

[Guest force_echo]

During the Hit and Run attack the likelihood of a Predator Casualty is relatively high compared to an Elite Casualty. With a Pred going down from at least one Plasma Rifle hit, or at least being significantly wounded, their numbers and effectiveness will diminish. However Elites with their shields could just seek cover for a mere handful of Seconds to Fully Recharge their Shields, as if they never had taken a hit.

I used this argument in the 501st vs. Predators match and you didn't believe me.

[Guest Bloody Freak]

I was actually wondering about that, do the elites have radar? I've crept up behind a fair few in game. Is that just game mechanics?

 

Spray and pray isn't as useful as a lot of people are making it out to be... A predator is capable of dodging fire while not cloaked, whether that be do to bullet timing or aim dodging is debatable, but nevertheless, a cloaked predator is even harder to hit. Not impossible though. Another problem is overheating - which occurs rather quickly. If the elite sprays he better hope he hits...

 

This is pure speculation, but wouldn't the force of the shot behind the plasma caster cause the Elite to be at least thrown off his feet? I see the plasma caster as comparable to the fuel rod cannon, is this a fair assessment? Why are we assuming the plasma caster wouldn't just blow through the shielding like the fuel rod cannon? It's certainly more powerful than the plasma rifle's fire...

 

"Elites could take several hits from a Plasma Caster, multiple times, and keep on fighting at peak effectiveness." Not fact, speculation.

[Indolent]

Movements that are basically like a crawl, in terms of pace, don't appear on their radar.

[Guest force_echo]

I was actually wondering about that, do the elites have radar? I've crept up behind a fair few in game. Is that just game mechanics?

 

Spray and pray isn't as useful as a lot of people are making it out to be... A predator is capable of dodging fire while not cloaked, whether that be do to bullet timing or aim dodging is debatable, but nevertheless, a cloaked predator is even harder to hit. Not impossible though. Another problem is overheating - which occurs rather quickly. If the elite sprays he better hope he hits...

 

This is pure speculation, but wouldn't the force of the shot behind the plasma caster cause the Elite to be at least thrown off his feet? I see the plasma caster as comparable to the fuel rod cannon, is this a fair assessment? Why are we assuming the plasma caster wouldn't just blow through the shielding like the fuel rod cannon? It's certainly more powerful than the plasma rifle's fire...

 

"Elites could take several hits from a Plasma Caster, multiple times, and keep on fighting at peak effectiveness." Not fact, speculation.

Skir is saying that if a Predator were to use the hit and run tactic, they would give away there position. Elites can not only spray, they have gernades and fuel rods too. Plus the elites can cloak themselves. These guys aren't newborns, they have more experience than Preds. Elites go on continous war fighting from the day they are born. Preds also hunt form the day they are born, but its not continous, its just an occasional hunt, and hunts don't provide you with as much experience as a solid war will. They have seen what the predators have to offer before, its nothing new, both with humans and the Covenant civil war. Predators however, they've never fought someone like this.

[Guest ricrery]

Besides, Rice... All you have are numbers, I have a Feat... What actually happens generates more accurate numbers then random statements.

 

Well, those numbers are from Bungie themselves. Not only were they the original owners of Halo, but they never agreed with EU statements. They believed that the Covenant used nuclear fusion. The EU believed they used M/AM. According to Bungie, ships fire MACs at tens of kilometers, according to the EU, they fire them at C fractional velocities.

 

So that's 20,000 joules MINIMUM, to 45,000 joules MAXIMUM per shot. And that makes sense. It fits with all the data, and actually makes a Heat Based weapon usable in the field of battle against armour that are designed against Heat Based Weapons.

 

That's taking a very old EU instance over Bungie's own word. In SW canon, the former would be C canon, and the latter would be T canon. Also, Halo Wars completely demolishes double digit kJ bolts when one bolt hits a marine, yet he isn't harmed as he would be from a head popping blast.

 

I believe that Bungies "output" is per shot rather than the standard "per second" for the gun, Observation has backed this up.

 

Observation from a book Bungie outright contradicted and hugely changed in their game.

[Skirmisher]

I was actually wondering about that, do the elites have radar? I've crept up behind a fair few in game. Is that just game mechanics?

It depends on a couple of things.

 

First, Heroic is claimed to be the most accurate they can get to real in Halo according to Bungie. In that setting it's harder for you to sneak around at a full run.

 

Another thing is in Stealthing missions where the enemy isn't aware of you at first. It could be that they're to relaxed in their patrols to check, and besides, more often than not you're still going to be crouched and moving too slow to appear on radar anyway.

 

But mostly it is generally game mechanics. It would make the AI too bulky if it had the intelligence to check it's own motion radar in game. However we know they have Radar due to being able to play multiple Elites during the games, who have Radar.

 

 

Spray and pray isn't as useful as a lot of people are making it out to be... A predator is capable of dodging fire while not cloaked, whether that be do to bullet timing or aim dodging is debatable, but nevertheless, a cloaked predator is even harder to hit. Not impossible though. Another problem is overheating - which occurs rather quickly. If the elite sprays he better hope he hits...

Try dodging Plasma fire in game... you'll notice that it is possible, but eventually you will get hit at least once, and that's just from one Elite.

 

And the thing is, at 30m a Predator will be dodging on a combination of luck and skill from just one Elite firing, and their Radar will negate the effectiveness of Cloaking significantly. Enough to narrow down the arc they need to spray with Fire.

 

This means that the Elites can literally Stand there taking fire and returning it with impunity. This will allow them to Stand against Hit and Run attacks which rely on the confusion of killing in the first couple hits.

 

Against someone without Shields would get killed or significantly wounded by a hit and run attack, they wouldn't be able to return fire, and by the time their allies understand the situation the Predator would have fled. This is how the Predator in #1 got away after taking out the Mini-gunner, and Even then he took a hit and needed Medical Attention.

 

This wouldn't be the case with Sangheili and their energy shields. The Sangheili would take a hit, turn to his attacker and spray the area with Fire, his comrades will then see where he's firing and join in. Their response to the Attack would be Substantially Higher, and would render a Hit and Run impotent.

 

 

This is pure speculation, but wouldn't the force of the shot behind the plasma caster cause the Elite to be at least thrown off his feet? I see the plasma caster as comparable to the fuel rod cannon, is this a fair assessment? Why are we assuming the plasma caster wouldn't just blow through the shielding like the fuel rod cannon? It's certainly more powerful than the plasma rifle's fire...

1) No, an Elite would not be thrown off his feet... Their battle stance lowers their center of gravity quite a bit, and they are on average about as heavy as a well developed Predator.

 

2) Plasma Casters based on what has been shown are about as powerful as a Plasma Rifle or Pistol in halo. That is unless they Charge it up apparently, even I believe the Plasma flare would give away their position while charging, based on the fact that their Plasma should disrupt the area around the gun and the noise of it charging. As well, I believe that only their Omni-Casters can actually achieve Fuel Rod levels of destructive potential

 

3) What you have seen is the Plasma Rifle in game, Bungie has stated themselves that Plasma Weapons are alot more powerful than they can show in their games. The power of the weapons has actually been reduced to balance the Game Mechanics.

 

 

"Elites could take several hits from a Plasma Caster, multiple times, and keep on fighting at peak effectiveness." Not fact, speculation.

No, there is Fact behind this.

 

The Plasma Pistol with a single uncharged shot has been shown to fully melt an Elites head off. This is similar to the Plasma Casters Maximum Showing as seen in AvP:R. This would mean that in terms of Power Output the Plasma Caster = Plasma Pistol... Stats given indecate that the Plasma Pistol and the Plasma Rifle have the same power output, with the only difference being the Pistols Overcharge feature, and the Rifles Automatic fire feature.

 

This would mean that the Plasma Pistol/Rifle = Plasma Caster in Damage per Shot. Except that the Rifle/Pistols actually have a higher rate of fire than the Caster.

 

Seeing as how the Pistol/Rifle takes Several shots to down Elite Shields (Minor Elite _{(Elite shield strength gets higher with Rank)}) then that would mean that an Elites Energy Shields should be able to take Several hits from a Plasma Caster at Standard/High powered setting. Even then with the Maximum setting available on Omni-Casters, I would think them only capable of perhaps only downing an Elite Minors shields.

 

I would think that an Ultra could literally Stand in the open and tank Multiple Omni-Caster shots.

 

 

 

Basically, Predators are good at their Hit and Run attacks, they're good at Ambushes... the thing is, those two strategies need to Kill their opponents before their Stealth Advantage wears off... Energy Shields keep the Sangheili alive easily long enough to render a Hit and Run, or Ambush attack impotent.

[Skirmisher]

Well, those numbers are from Bungie themselves. Not only were they the original owners of Halo, but they never agreed with EU statements. They believed that the Covenant used nuclear fusion. The EU believed they used M/AM. According to Bungie, ships fire MACs at tens of kilometers, according to the EU, they fire them at C fractional velocities.

Ok your arguments are starting to break apart... make sense.

 

If I understand you properly then...

 

1) The Games are just as high a Canon as the Books since Games and Books are on the same Level of Canon in SW and that's the system they've adopted.

 

2) Bungie themselves have stated during talks about their Movie that "they can finally show how destructive their weapons actually are" which means that the Games Don't Get it Right. This is mostly due to GAME MECHANICS.

 

3) Where is your Proof that MAC's fire in the tens of Kilometers? Oh wait! You're basing it off of the Reach Cutscenes? The same cutscenes that use Game Mechanics to run them? The Same Game Mechanics that can't actually show the speed and power of MACs!

 

 

That's taking a very old EU instance over Bungie's own word. In SW canon, the former would be C canon, and the latter would be T canon. Also, Halo Wars completely demolishes double digit kJ bolts when one bolt hits a marine, yet he isn't harmed as he would be from a head popping blast.

T Canon is Telivision Canon, that's the CGI and Live Action TV shows that Star Wars is making.

 

The Books which were produced AFTER the game Manual. Not only that, but I have ALREADY proven how you are Wrong about their numbers!

 

Normally, yes you would be right. That's how the math works it... but in actual Practice it doesn't work how you say it does, the only way it fits is if you take that power and put it as "Per Shot" and not "Per Second".

 

Not only that but Origional Bungie showings > non-Bungie showings. Bungie didn't have their hands on Halo Wars, they didn't have Creative Control, Halo Wars is lower Canon than the other Halo Games and even the Books. The Authors of the Books were given access to the Halo Bible, which explained exactly what they needed about the Halo Universe.

 

Apparently they didn't have a copy of that when developing Halo Wars.

 

Not only THAT, but that Marine that was hit was hit in the Rather Thick Ceramic Armour he was wearing. AND IT STILL WOUNDED HIM. A Single Plasma Round burned through what looked to be 1in of Highly Heat Resistant Material and had enough energy left to burn the soldier underneath.

[Guest ricrery]

Ok your arguments are starting to break apart... make sense.

 

If I understand you properly then...

 

1) The Games are just as high a Canon as the Books since Games and Books are on the same Level of Canon in SW and that's the system they've adopted.

 

2) Bungie themselves have stated during talks about their Movie that "they can finally show how destructive their weapons actually are" which means that the Games Don't Get it Right. This is mostly due to GAME MECHANICS.

 

3) Where is your Proof that MAC's fire in the tens of Kilometers? Oh wait! You're basing it off of the Reach Cutscenes? The same cutscenes that use Game Mechanics to run them? The Same Game Mechanics that can't actually show the speed and power of MACs!

 

1) No, according to me games override books and other EU material.

 

2) What? 20 kilowatts to 450 kilojoules is nothing to scoff at. Even 5 kilojoules is equal to 1 and 1/2 7.62x51mm NATO rounds. Also, remember this. Games can limit their destructiveness, words can't. They put the output of the weapons in words, and those came out to 20-45 kW pistols and rifles. They are not restricted there, so we have no reason to believe this is not what they consider of the Covenant's firepower. They just want to show how powerful 20-45 kW really is, which is obviously destructive.

 

3) No, Halo 2 where you see MACs firing while on the Cairo Station. You even see the station itself fire a SMAC round.

 

1) T Canon is Telivision Canon, that's the CGI and Live Action TV shows that Star Wars is making.

 

 

1) The Books which were produced AFTER the game Manual. Not only that, but I have ALREADY proven how you are Wrong about their numbers!

 

1) Normally, yes you would be right. That's how the math works it... but in actual Practice it doesn't work how you say it does, the only way it fits is if you take that power and put it as "Per Shot" and not "Per Second".

 

1) No, I mean its equivalent to T Canon. T Canon here is basically Bungie's statements. G Canon is game canon and what happens there. C Canon is the EU material.

 

1) Not only that but Origional Bungie showings > non-Bungie showings. Bungie didn't have their hands on Halo Wars, they didn't have Creative Control, Halo Wars is lower Canon than the other Halo Games and even the Books. The Authors of the Books were given access to the Halo Bible, which explained exactly what they needed about the Halo Universe.

 

2) Apparently they didn't have a copy of that when developing Halo Wars.

 

3) Not only THAT, but that Marine that was hit was hit in the Rather Thick Ceramic Armour he was wearing. AND IT STILL WOUNDED HIM. A Single Plasma Round burned through what looked to be 1in of Highly Heat Resistant Material and had enough energy left to burn the soldier underneath.

 

1) Untrue. Halo's canon system is Games > Licensed material > Propaganda > Unlicensed material and that new > old.

 

Halo Wars would be higher canon than the other games but Halo ODST and Reach because it's newer. Therefor, anytime Halo 3, 2, and 1 ever contradict it, they are wrong. This goes for the books as well.

 

2) Funny, there was no Halo Bible during TFoR. TFoR was what contributed to a lot of Halo canon, under certain limitations of course.

 

3) Do you have a link to the video? Can't find it anywhere.

[Skirmisher]

1) No, according to me games override books and other EU material.

 

2) What? 20 kilowatts to 450 kilojoules is nothing to scoff at. Even 5 kilojoules is equal to 1 and 1/2 7.62x51mm NATO rounds. Also, remember this. Games can limit their destructiveness, words can't. They put the output of the weapons in words, and those came out to 20-45 kW pistols and rifles. They are not restricted there, so we have no reason to believe this is not what they consider of the Covenant's firepower. They just want to show how powerful 20-45 kW really is, which is obviously destructive.

 

3) No, Halo 2 where you see MACs firing while on the Cairo Station. You even see the station itself fire a SMAC round.

1) You are not a representative of Bungie. What you say does not even matter in the Slightest to what is or is not Canon.

 

2) So you are agreeing with me? That's nice, 20-45 Kilojoules per shot then.

 

3) Yes, and BOTH of those scenes are Game Mechanics. They couldn't actually make the rounds move as fast as they say they can, which is why you end up with relatively slow moving rounds form the MACs.

 

 

1) No, I mean its equivalent to T Canon. T Canon here is basically Bungie's statements. G Canon is game canon and what happens there. C Canon is the EU material.

No,

 

G = Movies

T = Television

C = Games, Manuals, Books

 

Ergo, the Games and the Books are of the Same Tier of Canon, except the Books are not hindered by Game Mechanics, and are therefore much more suitable to what is Canon.

 

Actually seeing as how most of the Halo Games are in Game Mechanics, all of their Feats are Non-Canon, and only story elements are Canon. That means that Yes, in Halo 2 the Chief did defend the station, and did return that bomb, and did then go down to fight the covenant on Earth. But you can't look at the ships and gather numbers based on what you see, because it's Inherently Inaccurate.

 

 

1) Untrue. Halo's canon system is Games > Licensed material > Propaganda > Unlicensed material and that new > old.

 

Halo Wars would be higher canon than the other games but Halo ODST and Reach because it's newer. Therefor, anytime Halo 3, 2, and 1 ever contradict it, they are wrong. This goes for the books as well.

 

2) Funny, there was no Halo Bible during TFoR. TFoR was what contributed to a lot of Halo canon, under certain limitations of course.

 

3) Do you have a link to the video? Can't find it anywhere.

1) Bungie has said that they are using the Star Wars method of Canon. That means that:

 

G = Movies

T = Television

C = Games, Manuals, Books

 

As well, most of the numbers that you seem to be getting are from Non-Canon sources... Meaning that you are wrong.

 

 

2) Actually I believe that TFoR was the closest to Canon due to the fact that he had the Bible when he was writing it. After that, he didn't have the book... Besides, the Melty Head Shot came from First Strike. Not only that but Newer Material has yet to demonstrate Lower Yields.

 

3)

 

First soldier, get's hit ONCE, Dead

Second Soldier, get's hit ONCE, Critically Wounded.

[Guest ricrery]

1) You are not a representative of Bungie. What you say does not even matter in the Slightest to what is or is not Canon.

 

2) So you are agreeing with me? That's nice, 20-45 Kilojoules per shot then.

 

3) Yes, and BOTH of those scenes are Game Mechanics. They couldn't actually make the rounds move as fast as they say they can, which is why you end up with relatively slow moving rounds form the MACs.

 

1) When did I ever say I was a representative of Bungie? No, I said that Bungie's own word (read, their own word, which seems to consistently contradict the upper limits of the EU) states single digit kilojoules.

 

2) 2.22-7.5 kilojoules per shot.

 

3) And both of those STILL override ANYTHING from the EU.

 

No,

 

G = Movies

T = Television

C = Games, Manuals, Books

 

Ergo, the Games and the Books are of the Same Tier of Canon, except the Books are not hindered by Game Mechanics, and are therefore much more suitable to what is Canon.

 

Actually seeing as how most of the Halo Games are in Game Mechanics, all of their Feats are Non-Canon, and only story elements are Canon. That means that Yes, in Halo 2 the Chief did defend the station, and did return that bomb, and did then go down to fight the covenant on Earth. But you can't look at the ships and gather numbers based on what you see, because it's Inherently Inaccurate.

 

... Did I not just say the equivalent of G Canon in Bungie was the games? Read, equivalent. SW canon and Halo canon are not the same (obviously).

 

1) Bungie has said that they are using the Star Wars method of Canon. That means that:

 

G = Movies

T = Television

C = Games, Manuals, Books

 

As well, most of the numbers that you seem to be getting are from Non-Canon sources... Meaning that you are wrong.

 

 

2) Actually I believe that TFoR was the closest to Canon due to the fact that he had the Bible when he was writing it. After that, he didn't have the book... Besides, the Melty Head Shot came from First Strike. Not only that but Newer Material has yet to demonstrate Lower Yields.

 

3)

 

First soldier, get's hit ONCE, Dead

Second Soldier, get's hit ONCE, Critically Wounded.

 

 

1) No, they NEVER stated such a claim. Here's the actual statement.

 

"Hey Folks,

 

Bry has hit the nail on the head:

 

: Halo 'canon' can quite easily be viewed in a similar way as the kind of canon

: system in place with Star Wars.

: A certain hierarchy of priority.

: In other words, different levels of canon where the higher levels will

: override the lower ones whenever there is a contradiction.

 

Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:

 

- The games rank first

- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second

- Marketing and PR materials third

 

And there's one codicil: the more recent items trump the older ones. So, for example, if some aspect of Halo 3's fiction contradicted Halo 2's, Halo 3's would be the gold standard.

 

Bungie doesn't like to retcon (i.e., deliberately change previously established facts), but sometimes it's necessary. Take for example the issue of the number of human worlds. The truth about the "800+" number? That was made up by a non-Bungie employee and never approved by us before the Halo: CE promotional website went live.

 

As for some of the other issues raised, chiefly Jenkins' age and UNSC foot-dragging on fielding the BR55? I will only say that some marines have spent a very long time in cryo-sleep and that putting an entirely new weapon into service during a war -- especially a war that spans multiple star systems -- is no small order.

 

That being said, I'm constantly impressed by how close attention you all pay to the details. Don't ever stop keeping us honest! And we'll do our best to keep you reliably entertained :-)

 

- Joseph"

 

Games overrule the EU. Simple, really.

 

2) TFoR created most of Halo, so no, it had no Bible behind it, and it was consistently contradicting itself to boot.

 

3) Except we clearly see no damage to his suit. That doesn't speak well for plasma rifles. If it can't damage that armor, it won't do any better against an alien who's laughed at lightning impacting him. The guy falling down was probably just knocked out instead of actually killed.

[Guest Red Blue Blur]

For the umptenth time the Elites WOULD win if this was an all out war. This battle takes place in the jungle. The fighters arent stated to be squared off in sight of each other. The Preds would simply wait until the Elites were in range. The setup states they know about each others tech. Therefore the preds stay hidden until within striking distance of the Elites.

 

Also while hidden in the trees two preds could target a single Elite. One fires to blow away the shield and the second connects with a full on blast. The preds would essentially be hunting the Elites as the walked through the jungle looking for the preds.

 

Also the Plasma Caster can completely disentigrate multiple stone towers large enough for multiple humans to be occupying, in just a moments time. They would equal approximetaly the same firepower as the fuel rod. The wrist rocket would equal the fire power of a covenant blaster.

 

The Preds WILL win is this particular setting.

[Guest force_echo]

For the umptenth time the Elites WOULD win if this was an all out war. This battle takes place in the jungle. The fighters arent stated to be squared off in sight of each other. The Preds would simply wait until the Elites were in range. The setup states they know about each others tech. Therefore the preds stay hidden until within striking distance of the Elites.

 

Also while hidden in the trees two preds could target a single Elite. One fires to blow away the shield and the second connects with a full on blast. The preds would essentially be hunting the Elites as the walked through the jungle looking for the preds.

 

Also the Plasma Caster can completely disentigrate multiple stone towers large enough for multiple humans to be occupying, in just a moments time. They would equal approximetaly the same firepower as the fuel rod. The wrist rocket would equal the fire power of a covenant blaster.

 

The Preds WILL win is this particular setting.

That was an omnicaster that had to be charged. Not a plasma caster.

[Skirmisher]

1) When did I ever say I was a representative of Bungie? No, I said that Bungie's own word (read, their own word, which seems to consistently contradict the upper limits of the EU) states single digit kilojoules.

 

2) 2.22-7.5 kilojoules per shot.

 

3) And both of those STILL override ANYTHING from the EU.

1) No, the understanding on the math is sketchy. Based on all further evidance given, even by Statements from Bungie themselves, their weapons cannot be in the 2.22-7.5 kilojoule range.

 

2) 20kj to 45kj

 

3) Actually not they don't, not in the slightest. They are GAME MECHANICS, and are NON-CANON.

 

 

1) No, they NEVER stated such a claim. Here's the actual statement.

 

"-Snip"

 

Games overrule the EU. Simple, really.

 

2) TFoR created most of Halo, so no, it had no Bible behind it, and it was consistently contradicting itself to boot.

 

3) Except we clearly see no damage to his suit. That doesn't speak well for plasma rifles. If it can't damage that armor, it won't do any better against an alien who's laughed at lightning impacting him. The guy falling down was probably just knocked out instead of actually killed.

1) Yes, I have NEVER said the Games aren't counted. The Storyline in the Games is Top Canon, what happens in the Games story is top canon. BUT GAME MECHANICS ARE NOT CANON. If they are Canon then Spartans have a Telekinetic Strength of 205 Tons, since they can lift, and flip into the Air well over their heads an Elephant. Same with Elites too, since you can pick your characters to be either Elite or Spartan. To me that Instantly puts them into high Super Powered characters and makes their shields resistant to at least 200 ton Punches, due to the fact that they can put that TK force behind their Melee Attacks. BUT WAIT, GAME MECHANICS AREN'T CANON!

 

2) Actually, no, Bungie had a Halo Bible Well before they asked Nylund to write a book. Halo 2 the Game didn't exist before TFoR, Nylund helped move it along with his book. Even then, you say there's contradictions on Every Page, when there isn't. There isn't as many contradictions as you are Spouting, and I would think that most contradictions are from Idiot writers like Dietz and Staten. Really! 25 years to distribute a simple gun... IDC if soldiers are in cryo for a long time, and there are many worlds... the only excuse you have is that UNSC space HAS TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF SYSTEMS THEN for it to make any sense.

 

3) Did you see that big black scorch mark all across his back? Do you even know the mechanics behind how Heat Based Weapons would penetrate armour? No, you don't.

 

As well, NO PRED HAS EVER TANKED A LIGHTNING HIT WITHOUT HIS ARMOUR GROUNDING HIM, EFFECTIVELY MAKING THE LIGHTNING STRIKE IMPOTENT.

 

Not only that, but if Soldier 1 was only KOed, then why didn't the Elite kill him while walking over to Soldier 2? A Simple Coup De Grace would be all that was needed to kill him, he's not fighting back... Because he's already Dead.

[Guest ricrery]

1) No, the understanding on the math is sketchy. Based on all further evidance given, even by Statements from Bungie themselves, their weapons cannot be in the 2.22-7.5 kilojoule range.

 

2) 20kj to 45kj

 

3) Actually not they don't, not in the slightest. They are GAME MECHANICS, and are NON-CANON.

 

1) WHAT evidence? Your saying so? An old book EU book?

 

2) No, a tenth of that.

 

3) Lol, they are not game mechanics in any way.

 

3) Did you see that big black scorch mark all across his back? Do you even know the mechanics behind how Heat Based Weapons would penetrate armour? No, you don't.

 

3) And does that sound anything like

 

"The Master Chief went to Linda and knelt by her side. Sections of her armour had melted and adhered to her. Underneath, in patches, bits of carbonised bone showed. He accessed her vital signs, they were dangerously low"

page 328

 

And opposed to the needle fire in Halo Wars, we have this

 

"Cochran's insides were meat. Walker and Fincher had filled him up with biofoam and taped him up-they even managed to stop the bleeding-but if the man didn't get to a medic soon, he was a goner."

 

page 165

 

Also, you somehow think it makes ANY sense that their bolts are 30 kJ when the UNSC use 7.62 NATO rounds? Hell, in Halo 2, Miranda takes down Arbiter's shields and actually wounds him, WITH SMGS. Seriously, 20-45 kJ per bolt is not only non-canon, but completely stupid.

 

As well, NO PRED HAS EVER TANKED A LIGHTNING HIT WITHOUT HIS ARMOUR GROUNDING HIM, EFFECTIVELY MAKING THE LIGHTNING STRIKE IMPOTENT.

 

Prove it.

 

Not only that, but if Soldier 1 was only KOed, then why didn't the Elite kill him while walking over to Soldier 2? A Simple Coup De Grace would be all that was needed to kill him, he's not fighting back... Because he's already Dead.

 

Simple, it happened off screen.

[RakaiThwei]

As well, NO PRED HAS EVER TANKED A LIGHTNING HIT WITHOUT HIS ARMOUR GROUNDING HIM, EFFECTIVELY MAKING THE LIGHTNING STRIKE IMPOTENT.

 

You made this arguement in the Wolf Predator vs Sailor Jupiter fight... You also made the same argument concerning the netting mesh suit.

 

There are three problems with this...

 

For one, Dlex is a highly conductive metal, as evidenced in PREDATOR, when Diablo was heating his blades up with his targeting laser, and in a few seconds, the wristblades are already glowing red hot. In PREDATOR 2, we see Ghost Predator raising his spear high up into the air and get struck twice by lightning bolts, the bolt strikes the combi-staff which is more than likely made form Dlex, and the energy is conducted through ghost.

 

Two, the armor doesn't cover that much of Ghost's body. I am telling you this from looking at a MacFarlane Ghost Predator action figure as well as a screenshot. The shoulders, chest, knees and shins are all that are armored. So we can assume the armor is also made from Dlex as well.

 

Three, the netting mesh suit doesn't cover over the entire body at all whatsoever. The left arm, head, and feet are not covered by the mesh. So, this would make the mesh suit ineffective if your argument does hold water. If it were to be effective, it'd have to cover the left arm, head, and feet.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Skirmisher]

1) WHAT evidence? Your saying so? An old book EU book?

 

2) No, a tenth of that.

 

3) Lol, they are not game mechanics in any way.

1) No, I'm talking about the talk from the Discussions on the Halo Movie. While they were talking about it, there was much talk about how they could finally demonstrate how powerful Covenant weaponry would actually be. And the Movie would > Games if it were made.

 

2) Only by your reasoning.

 

3) Yes, that is GAME MECHANICS. Not only that but it also happened not in a cutscene so even That isn't a usable defense. The thing is, the those shots used the Game Engine, and the Game Engine could not actually show the shots moving at the right speed. Just how the Gauss Hog is said by Bungie themselves to have a muzzle velocity of Mach 40, yet play the game, and notice how it's not even a tenth of that. Hell at a few hundred meters I can dodge a Gauss shell, I've done it multiple times.

 

What does this mean? GAME MECHANICS and therefore pretty much ALL of the GAME SCENES are Non-Canon except for the Story. You cannot look at a Ship and say, "it's MAC fires at X kph" but you can say that "The master chief saw UNSC warships firing their MAC's at the approaching Covenant armada." That's It.

 

 

3) And does that sound anything like

 

"The Master Chief went to Linda and knelt by her side. Sections of her armour had melted and adhered to her. Underneath, in patches, bits of carbonised bone showed. He accessed her vital signs, they were dangerously low"

page 328

 

And opposed to the needle fire in Halo Wars, we have this

 

"Cochran's insides were meat. Walker and Fincher had filled him up with biofoam and taped him up-they even managed to stop the bleeding-but if the man didn't get to a medic soon, he was a goner."

 

page 165

 

Also, you somehow think it makes ANY sense that their bolts are 30 kJ when the UNSC use 7.62 NATO rounds? Hell, in Halo 2, Miranda takes down Arbiter's shields and actually wounds him, WITH SMGS. Seriously, 20-45 kJ per bolt is not only non-canon, but completely stupid.

1) She had Duel SMG

 

2) We don't know how much better their propellant is than ours today, not only that but the FMJ of the Bullets could be using Titanium-A, to increase it's penetration capabilities.

 

3) The Arbiters armour is EXTREMELY OLD. When he was given the armour he was told that it was old, yet he is the Next arbiter to actually get the Armour after the previous Arbiter was lost when the Shield World was Destroyed. His armour was old too... so Presumably the New Arbiter had extremely ineffective armour, and that the character compensated for this by being Badass.

 

 

Simple, it happened off screen.

Yet there wasn't time for that to happen. Soldier goes down, Elite steps over his corpse and advances on the Crawling away soldier. He then Coup De Graces said soldier.

 

If soldier 1 wasn't already dead then he would have been goup de graced as the soldier 2 was.

 

 

Three, the netting mesh suit doesn't cover over the entire body at all whatsoever. The left arm, head, and feet are not covered by the mesh. So, this would make the mesh suit ineffective if your argument does hold water. If it were to be effective, it'd have to cover the left arm, head, and feet.

 

 

Note how the Mesh covers his ENTIRE BODY UNDER THE ARMOUR...

 

Make note of that... All that crisscrossing lines, the Mesh that is...

 

Also, note that such a system of his FULL BODY MESH is tied into his Cloaking system, meaning that that FULL BODY MESH is technological, and therefore Metal, and therefore More Conductive then Flesh.

 

Ergo, the Lightning hit the Predators upraised Spear, conducted down it, across his armour, then across his FULL BODY MESH, and then grounded into the Building.

[RakaiThwei]

Note how the Mesh covers his ENTIRE BODY UNDER THE ARMOUR...

 

Make note of that... All that crisscrossing lines, the Mesh that is...

 

Looking at the MacFarlane and Kotobukiya action figure and statues of Ghost Predator in front of me right now. They are pretty damn screen accurate and the left arm, feet, and head aren't covered.

 

So no, the entire body is not, covered by mesh.

 

Also, note that such a system of his FULL BODY MESH is tied into his Cloaking system, meaning that that FULL BODY MESH is technological, and therefore Metal, and therefore More Conductive then Flesh.

 

The body mesh isn't really used for cloaking. If anything it's a jump suit which regulates cooling and heating for environments. Has nothing to do with the cloaking function.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Skirmisher]

Looking at the MacFarlane and Kotobukiya action figure and statues of Ghost Predator in front of me right now. They are pretty damn screen accurate and the left arm, feet, and head aren't covered.

 

So no, the entire body is not, covered by mesh.

So... you're going to take a TOY over an ACTUAL SCENE FROM THE MOVIE....

 

Ok here's more proof.

 

 

 

NOTICE THE MESH, HOW IT COVERS ALL OF HIM UNDER HIS ARMOUR.

 

 

The body mesh isn't really used for cloaking. If anything it's a jump suit which regulates cooling and heating for environments. Has nothing to do with the cloaking function.

Still a moot point, it's technological, and has a Function other than being the Predator equivalent to fishnet stalkings... Said net would presumably be made of Metal or a Conductive material as according to you it's meant to Regulate their Temperature.

[RakaiThwei]

So... you're going to take a TOY over an ACTUAL SCENE FROM THE MOVIE....

 

Actually.... I completely forgot about the fact that I mostly added images for Ghost on his gallery.

 

 

 

 

The netting only extends to the torso, lower torso, legs and right arm. The left arm, head and feet are still exposed.

 

For something to effectively work against something like electricity, it'd have to be woven across the entire form, feet, left arm and head.

 

NOTE: Third image has been inverted horizontally, so viewing it is incorrect unless looked through a mirror.

 

 

Still a moot point, it's technological, and has a Function other than being the Predator equivalent to fishnet stalkings... Said net would presumably be made of Metal or a Conductive material as according to you it's meant to Regulate their Temperature.

 

Not necessarily true.

 

I'm sure you've heard of thermal underwear which keeps body heat in and works to keep the cold out, it's kind of the same principal with the mesh netting suit. It doesn't appear to be made of metal, but rather some sort of unknown alien fabric,.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Skirmisher]

Actually.... I completely forgot about the fact that I mostly added images for Ghost on his gallery.

 

Snip snip snip

 

The netting only extends to the torso, lower torso, legs and right arm. The left arm, head and feet are still exposed.

 

For something to effectively work against something like electricity, it'd have to be woven across the entire form, feet, left arm and head.

 

NOTE: Third image has been inverted horizontally, so viewing it is incorrect unless looked through a mirror.

Bolded the nessisary parts and blew up the Pic that I used before to confirm it

 

 

Lightning hits spear, Travels down Spear

Lightning hits Gauntlet, Travels down Gauntlet

Lightning hits Mesh, Travels down Mesh

Lightning hits Building, Lightning Grounds on Building.

 

 

Not necessarily true.

 

I'm sure you've heard of thermal underwear which keeps body heat in and works to keep the cold out, it's kind of the same principal with the mesh netting suit. It doesn't appear to be made of metal, but rather some sort of unknown alien fabric,.

Except that an Unknown Alien Fabric, that looks like that COULD NOT FUNCTION as you think.

 

What would make a Better system is if that material were something like thin metal wires which act like a Heating element. Energy is put through it, and they heat up, mimicking the Predators natural Climate. Presumably the Pred shut it down so that he could recharge off of Lightning. Siphoning some of the electricity as it passed Harmlessly over his armour and mesh netting.

[Guest ricrery]

1) No, I'm talking about the talk from the Discussions on the Halo Movie. While they were talking about it, there was much talk about how they could finally demonstrate how powerful Covenant weaponry would actually be. And the Movie would > Games if it were made.

 

2) Only by your reasoning.

 

3) Yes, that is GAME MECHANICS. Not only that but it also happened not in a cutscene so even That isn't a usable defense. The thing is, the those shots used the Game Engine, and the Game Engine could not actually show the shots moving at the right speed. Just how the Gauss Hog is said by Bungie themselves to have a muzzle velocity of Mach 40, yet play the game, and notice how it's not even a tenth of that. Hell at a few hundred meters I can dodge a Gauss shell, I've done it multiple times.

 

What does this mean? GAME MECHANICS and therefore pretty much ALL of the GAME SCENES are Non-Canon except for the Story. You cannot look at a Ship and say, "it's MAC fires at X kph" but you can say that "The master chief saw UNSC warships firing their MAC's at the approaching Covenant armada." That's It.

 

1) Which can MEAN ANYTHING. Jesus, it can even mean that they aren't even as destructive as they make them out to be with their own specs. Also, you'd best provide actual evidence the movie would be higher canon. All of this is pure speculation and unusable at best.

 

2) No, only by Bungie's word, common sense, and game visuals

 

3) Yes, and an even slower velocity is seen in Halo Reach. It's also hypocritical of you to claim game mechanics are not canon. Just before in this thread, you used the game mechanics of a Hunter's fuel rod gun, and before that, you've used the game mechanics of a Starcraft nuke to figure out its power to intentionally lowball it. So... why the *vulgarity* can't I use game mechanics?

 

1) She had Duel SMG

 

2) We don't know how much better their propellant is than ours today, not only that but the FMJ of the Bullets could be using Titanium-A, to increase it's penetration capabilities.

 

3) The Arbiters armour is EXTREMELY OLD. When he was given the armour he was told that it was old, yet he is the Next arbiter to actually get the Armour after the previous Arbiter was lost when the Shield World was Destroyed. His armour was old too... so Presumably the New Arbiter had extremely ineffective armour, and that the character compensated for this by being Badass.

 

1) Doesn't really change much.

 

2) Actually, we do know the specs of their guns. It has 1.3 kg unloaded, and 2.88 kg loaded (240 bullets). Each bullet should have a mass of 6.583 grams and be fired at 427 m/s. With a KE of 600 J per bullet, that means it fires 9,002 J per second. In the scene, Miranda fires for about 4 seconds, or 72,000 J total. That would require 18 MA5 rounds, or under 2 45,000 J plasma bolts. Do you still want to argue that double digit Covenant plasma rifles is not complete nonsense?

 

1) Yet there wasn't time for that to happen. Soldier goes down, Elite steps over his corpse and advances on the Crawling away soldier. He then Coup De Graces said soldier.

 

2) If soldier 1 wasn't already dead then he would have been goup de graced as the soldier 2 was.

 

1) Yes there was. All the Elite had to do was fire on the marine even more while the camera was not on him. Simple as that.

 

2) Who says he wasn't before Soldier 2 was?

[RakaiThwei]

Lightning hits spear, Travels down Spear

Lightning hits Gauntlet, Travels down Gauntlet

Lightning hits Mesh, Travels down Mesh

Lightning hits Building, Lightning Grounds on Building.

 

I know, I saw the movie thousands, and thousands of times...

 

The entire form, including the left arm was also surged with electricity. Therefore, Ghost's body would've been coursed through such power.

 

But then, there is the skin... Yautja skin is nothing at all like human skin, or mammalian skin. We do know that they are reptilian in nature, and therefore, probably is scaly...

 

If this is true, Yautja skin is reptilian in origin, although at first they appear to have no scales. Over the course of their evolution, the scales on them have become so fine they are now nearly impossible to notice. Yautja skin cells laid out flat, so they are very small and impossible to see with the naked eye. Also, due to its unique structure, it somehow probably transfers electrical current through the bottom out of the soles of the feet.

 

Of course, this is a fictional alien species we're talking about.

 

Except that an Unknown Alien Fabric, that looks like that COULD NOT FUNCTION as you think.

 

What would make a Better system is if that material were something like thin metal wires which act like a Heating element. Energy is put through it, and they heat up, mimicking the Predators natural Climate. Presumably the Pred shut it down so that he could recharge off of Lightning. Siphoning some of the electricity as it passed Harmlessly over his armour and mesh netting.

 

You don't know that.

 

Are you are an astro-biologist, astro-physicist, or someone who actually does have governmental ties in explaining how extraterrestrial fabrics work? No, I didn't think so. And I'm not saying that to be sarcastic or mean, but if you are a person who has worked in Area 51 or the like, then great!

 

We're talking about a fictional alien species, who have developed such things to where we haven't even understood them, and you're trying to apply known Earth sciences to a fictional warrior race which, we know almost nothing about except for a cultural standpoint.

 

So you're pretty smart, great. But we're haven't even so much as figured out how most of their technology or their biology works.

 

-Rakai'Thwei