Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)

[Indolent]

3) Yes, and an even slower velocity is seen in Halo Reach. It's also hypocritical of you to claim game mechanics are not canon. Just before in this thread, you used the game mechanics of a Hunter's fuel rod gun, and before that, you've used the game mechanics of a Starcraft nuke to figure out its power to intentionally lowball it. So... why the *vulgarity* can't I use game mechanics?

As you've used game mechanics for the MAC Cannon, and you've repeatedly stated that it overrides the novels, because the game is > EU, why can't we use the scorpion flipping then? Its game mechanics, but its done in the game, just like the MAC cannon scene is and it overrides everything said about the Spartans capabilities in terms of strength in the novels, simply because of the fact that Spartans can flip warthogs, tanks, and elephants in game.

[Guest ricrery]

As you've used game mechanics for the MAC Cannon, and you've repeatedly stated that it overrides the novels, because the game is > EU, why can't we use the scorpion flipping then?

 

Alright then, how about you actually prove the MAC rounds seen there are restricted by game mechanics? Also, the speed of MAC rounds is less than that in Halo Reach, which also supports me point.

 

Its game mechanics, but its done in the game, just like the MAC cannon scene is

 

No, it's done for the convenience of the player. The MACs are not relevant to gameplay whatsoever, and if Bungie actually supported C fractional velocities, they would have not shown visible MACs, or maybe even shown space combat at all.

[Indolent]

Alright then, how about you actually prove the MAC rounds seen there are restricted by game mechanics? Also, the speed of MAC rounds is less than that in Halo Reach, which also supports me point.

 

 

 

No, it's done for the convenience of the player. The MACs are not relevant to gameplay whatsoever, and if Bungie actually supported C fractional velocities, they would have not shown visible MACs, or maybe even shown space combat at all.

They wished to make it dramatic. Its the same concept as to why we do not see Spartan Time or anything related to it in the games, where they should be moving at a blur. Yet, they don't. All to make it dramatic. Besides, take the Gauss Hog. Its supposed to shoot at Mach 40. Yet, just as Skirmisher's stated, at a hundred meters or so, you can actually physically dodge these shots. I've seen it happen. Bungie's stated that these shoot at Mach 40. Yet it ain't so in the games. Besides, the MAC cannon firing in Halo 2 wasn't done in a cutscene. You're able to control and move Master Chief whilst the cannon fires.

 

Well, Bungie should have said nay on the novels that have the statements of the MACs being C Fractional, then. Besides, again, isn't it all for aesthetics? What's the point of putting a scene in where a bullet of massive size being shot at a speed where we wouldn't be able to see it? All we'd see would be just the cannon itself firing over and over with an enormous muzzle flash.

[Guest ricrery]

They wished to make it dramatic. Its the same concept as to why we do not see Spartan Time or anything related to it in the games, where they should be moving at a blur.

 

Are you sure that it isn't in Spartan Time? As for moving like a blur, I doubt it. As shown

, it's quite clear Bungie doesn't agree with the numbers the EU give them in speed.

 

Yet, they don't. All to make it dramatic. Besides, take the Gauss Hog. Its supposed to shoot at Mach 40. Yet, just as Skirmisher's stated, at a hundred meters or so, you can actually physically dodge these shots. I've seen it happen. Bungie's stated that these shoot at Mach 40. Yet it ain't so in the games. Besides, the MAC cannon firing in Halo 2 wasn't done in a cutscene. You're able to control and move Master Chief whilst the cannon fires.

 

How about you prove MACs are restricted by game mechanics already? I'm tired of your "they are game mechanics because... they are game mechanics" nonsense right now. Put up or shut up. End of story.

 

1) Well, Bungie should have said nay on the novels that have the statements of the MACs being C Fractional, then.

 

2) Besides, again, isn't it all for aesthetics? What's the point of putting a scene in where a bullet of massive size being shot at a speed where we wouldn't be able to see it? All we'd see would be just the cannon itself firing over and over with an enormous muzzle flash.

 

1) First, that's insufficient to prove anything, so don't expect that to be a viable defense in debates. Second, they do actually outright contradict C fractional MACs in Halo Reach, 3, and 2.

 

2) Because according to our SoD, we must take what we have, else debating would be even more hell.

[Guest force_echo]

Its game mechanics because it occurs in the game outside a cutscene, what other evidence is needed, thats the definition of game mechanics.

 

What does it matter if the Predator tanked the lightning in the first place? I don't see how that matters at all in this debate, Elites don't use weapons that electrocute you.

[Guest ricrery]

Its game mechanics because it occurs in the game outside a cutscene, what other evidence is needed, thats the definition of game mechanics.

 

Except you have to prove it is limited by game mechanics. It's not actually something that occurs in gameplay.

 

What does it matter if the Predator tanked the lightning in the first place? I don't see how that matters at all in this debate

 

Um, what? It does matter.

 

Elites don't use weapons that electrocute you.

 

Wrong. The electrocution comes from the voltage, which is what Covenant plasma bolts have. They generate 100,000-150,000 volts at .2-.3 amperes per second, or 20-45 kilowatts. A lightning strike generally has millions of volts at millions of amperes, or terawatts. That means that the bolt itself has megajoules of energy, most of which that doesn't go into its target. If both were to go through the heart, then it would get zapped.

[Guest force_echo]

Covenant weapons are PLASMA weapons, they don't use electricity. They might use 20-45 kilowatts to GENERATE the plasma, but Covenant weapons don't shoot electrocute you, you don't see an anode sticking to the target like a taser.

[Guest ricrery]

Covenant weapons are PLASMA weapons, they don't use electricity.

 

And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.

 

They might use 20-45 kilowatts to GENERATE the plasma, but Covenant weapons don't shoot electrocute you, you don't see an anode sticking to the target like a taser.

 

Actually, they do use volts, just not enough to zap you from a normal hit. They'd need to hit somewhere near the heart to fry it via electricity.

[Skirmisher]

How about you prove MACs are restricted by game mechanics already? I'm tired of your "they are game mechanics because... they are game mechanics" nonsense right now. Put up or shut up. End of story.

This is because everything you see in Game is Rendered and is an Actual Object.

 

Those ships you see off in the distance? They're Actual In Game Objects, being rendered just like an Elite, or a Banshee, or a Pelican.

 

What does this mean? Everything they do is still bound by the limitations of the Game Engine. They Fire MAC's like the Gauss Hog fires it's shells, they probably uses the Same [Cannon.exe] as the Gausshog for their MACs, with maybe slight alterations.

 

But the Fact remains, They are still bound by the Limitations of the Game Engine and are Based in Game Mechanics.

[Guest force_echo]

And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.

 

 

 

Actually, they do use volts, just not enough to zap you from a normal hit. They'd need to hit somewhere near the heart to fry it via electricity.

Lightning is not plasma, and as far as I'm concerned, this statement undermines your scientific credibility for the entire debate. Lightning is an electrical charge, a stream of electrons, not an energized gas like plasma is. Lightning CREATES plasma due to its pure energy instantly ionizing and superheating the air around it, but lightning is not plasma. Plasma is an energized gas, when heated, it will ionize into electrons, positively charged particles, and some neutral particles. It is NOT, and is nowhere near a discharge of electricity like lighting is, they do not even measure energy in the same form. I find it amazing that Benjamin Franklin knew this hundreds of years ago, and some people today do not.

[Guest ricrery]

Lightning is not plasma, and as far as I'm concerned, this statement undermines your scientific credibility for the entire debate.

 

Well, given what Bungie said, Covenant plasma weapons are about as close to plasma as lightning is.

 

Lightning is an electrical charge, a stream of electrons, not an energized gas like plasma is. Lightning CREATES plasma due to its pure energy instantly ionizing and superheating the air around it, but lightning is not plasma.

 

And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?

 

Plasma is an energized gas, when heated, it will ionize into electrons, positively charged particles, and some neutral particles. It is NOT, and is nowhere near a discharge of electricity like lighting is, they do not even measure energy in the same form. I find it amazing that Benjamin Franklin knew this hundreds of years ago, and some people today do not.

 

Oh, and did you even look at the post showing a Plasma Rifles output?

 

http://www.bungie.net/projects/halo3/conte...k=h3plasmarifle

 

The weapon has a power output of 100~150 [email protected]~3 dA.

 

Do you see that, Force Echo? 100-150 kilovolts at 2-3 deciamperes. Wait... Isn't that how one finds the output of ligh- ... Oh...

[Guest force_echo]

Well, given what Bungie said, Covenant plasma weapons are about as close to plasma as lightning is.

 

 

 

And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?

 

 

 

Oh, and did you even look at the post showing a Plasma Rifles output?

 

http://www.bungie.net/projects/halo3/conte...k=h3plasmarifle

 

 

 

Do you see that, Force Echo? 100-150 kilovolts at 2-3 deciamperes. Wait... Isn't that how one finds the output of ligh- ... Oh...

For the last time, the freaking plasma is not measured in volts or amps, its the power the rifle puts in takes to shoot the plasma bolts, the plasma damage itself is not measured in either volts nor amperes, so again, I don't know why this is a factor in the debate. If anything, it shows the power output of the rifle's battery not its plasma. So how bout you go to your physics teacher have him explain to you why plasma is not measured like electricity is.

[Guest ricrery]

the plasma damage itself is not measured in either volts nor amperes, so again, I don't know why this is a factor in the debate.

 

The output of the rifle is less than a lightning bolt, but anyway, in terms of heat, even the lightning wins. It generally heats up the air by tens of thousands of degrees Fahrenheit, so assuming that only a few grams of air, then it's still tens of kilojoules.

 

So how bout you go to your physics teacher have him explain to you why plasma is not measured like electricity is.

 

And according to Bungie themselves, Covenant plasma is not normal plasma, but some exotic shit, as supported by Halo Reach's cutscene in Nights of Solstice.

[Guest sirmethos]

And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?

 

from what i can see, Force_Echo was reading what you said just fine, what you said was simply wrong

 

And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.

 

lightning is NOT, nor has it ever Been, Plasma.

 

 

 

And according to Bungie themselves, Covenant plasma is not normal plasma, but some exotic shit, as supported by Halo Reach's cutscene in Nights of Solstice.

 

the 'exotic shit' as you so eloquently put it, is simply that the Plasma is generated from types of Gas that are not found on Earth.

 

Plasma = Ionized gas. however, this can be done with Any kind of gas. be it Hydrogen-Plasma, Iron-Plasma, Plutonium-Plasma. the only thing it takes is sufficient heat to turn an element into gas, and then ionize it. some forms of plasma are low temperature, usually the elements with a low boiling point, while other forms of plasma are extremely high temperature, ie. elements with an extremely high boiling point

[Guest ricrery]

the 'exotic shit' as you so eloquently put it, is simply that the Plasma is generated from types of Gas that are not found on Earth.

 

Complete bullshit. Bungie stated that their "plasma" was some like some sort of arcane magic shit.

[Guest sirmethos]

Complete bullshit. Bungie stated that their "plasma" was some like some sort of arcane magic shit.

 

i assume you have a link then, so we can see this statement for ourselves, without proof, the only statement we have is yours. and based on your earlier statement that lightning is plasma, that doesn't really count for much.

 

but post a link so we can see bungie's statement about 'their plasma' for ourselves, and i'll be willing to concede on that point.

 

 

also, my explanation about Plasma was simply the physical facts. plasma = ionized gas. ask your physics teacher and he(or she) will tell you the same thing, though likely with more(and longer) words.

[Guest ricrery]

i assume you have a link then, so we can see this statement for ourselves, without proof, the only statement we have is yours. and based on your earlier statement that lightning is plasma, that doesn't really count for much.

 

but post a link so we can see bungie's statement about 'their plasma' for ourselves, and i'll be willing to concede on that point.

 

I'll do that later.

 

also, my explanation about Plasma was simply the physical facts. plasma = ionized gas. ask your physics teacher and he(or she) will tell you the same thing, though likely with more(and longer) words.

 

I stated previously that Bungie said that Covenant plasma isn't actual plasma, but I guess that went right through your head, didn't it? Here's a lesson for you. If you are incapable of comprehending an obvious statement, you probably shouldn't start poisoning the well.

[Guest sirmethos]

Here's a lesson for you. If you are incapable of comprehending an obvious statement, you probably shouldn't start poisoning the well.

 

if you can make statements as idiotic as saying that lightning = plasma, then you shouldn't enter science based debates in the first place.

[RakaiThwei]

I think it's safe to say this debate is long dead.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest ricrery]

if you can make statements as idiotic as saying that lightning = plasma, then you shouldn't enter science based debates in the first place.

 

Lightning actually generates plasma because of its heat/velocity. It's not plasma itself, that I've known before this debate. And if you can't read a rather basic statement and state a defense the opposite of what someone else was saying, then you probably shouldn't have entered such a debate at all.

 

But yes, this thread is over.

[Guest Ruinus]

Hey Skir, can you post that one quote with the MC shooting some Elite in the head?

[Skirmisher]

Hey Skir, can you post that one quote with the MC shooting some Elite in the head?

Page 315 The Fall of Reach ~ At this point the Ranger and the Chief had already depleted their shields.

 

"The Master Chief pushed away and fired the pistol again.

the bolt of fire caught the Elite in the face.

It writhed and clawed at nothing. The Elite shuddered..."

 

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

 

One uncharged shot from the Plasma Pistol Melted away the Rangers head.

[Guest Ruinus]

Page 315 The Fall of Reach ~ At this point the Ranger and the Chief had already depleted their shields.

 

"The Master Chief pushed away and fired the pistol again.

the bolt of fire caught the Elite in the face.

It writhed and clawed at nothing. The Elite shuddered..."

 

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

 

One uncharged shot from the Plasma Pistol Melted away the Rangers head.

 

??? I was kinda hoping for the entire thing...

 

Specifically face =/= head. So, I dunno where you are saying "melted face" means "melted head".

 

Or wait, wasn't this Elite in some sort of grappled with the MC? Why then, are we taking it as a given that it's attemptint go "claw at nothing" at it's face? Given that it was just, you know, shot in the face, it could be "clawing at nothing" in a blinded attempted to harm the MC. Or the pain from being shot in the face made it literalyl claw at nothing, ie it was waving it's arms around in a death knell before finally dying.

 

So I don't see where it's established that its entire head was gone.

[Skirmisher]

??? I was kinda hoping for the entire thing...

 

Specifically face =/= head. So, I dunno where you are saying "melted face" means "melted head".

 

Or wait, wasn't this Elite in some sort of grappled with the MC? Why then, are we taking it as a given that it's attemptint go "claw at nothing" at it's face? Given that it was just, you know, shot in the face, it could be "clawing at nothing" in a blinded attempted to harm the MC. Or the pain from being shot in the face made it literalyl claw at nothing, ie it was waving it's arms around in a death knell before finally dying.

 

So I don't see where it's established that its entire head was gone.

No, pre that quote they were grappling and a previous couple of shots and strikes downed both their shields. Immediately after that Quote, the Elite was dead from having no head left.

 

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

[Guest Ruinus]

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

 

Ok, I'm confused. Is this the actual quote from the book, or is this just you?

 

Because if it is just your speculation then the red highlighted part is what I take issue with. Assuming for a moment that the Elite is actually covering it's face ("clawed at nothing") then this does not follow.

 

You assume:

"Elite shot in face, it goes to cover face and finds nothing, means the head was gone."

 

When it could just as easily be:

"Elite shot in face, it goes to cover face and finds nothing because the face* is no longer there, and dies." It's face had been boiled away, leaving only roasted skull or flesh.

 

Third option:

"Elite shot in face, blindly thrases about ("clawed at nothing") and dies."

 

This argument of yours relies on:

1. Equating the face of an Elite with it's entire head.
   
2. Assuming the Elite is clawing at its face, instead of simply clawing about randomly.
   
3. Assuming the Elite's arms can somehow function without a head for it to claw at it's head (or lack therefore) before dying.
   

*Specifially, a face:

The surface of the front of the head from the top of the forehead to the base of the chin and from ear to ear.

 

Second definition:

That part of the head, esp. of man, in which the eyes, cheeks, nose, and mouth are situated; visage; countenance.