Xenomorphs vs. Blackwatch

June 14, 2011

I do. It didn't really matter in the end did it? The same thign will happen to Blackwatch, just on a larger scale.

Only because Mercer killed their leaders, shot down their escape helicopters, destroyed most of their bases and consistently foiled their plans.

I played protoytpe too. The Hunters are really the equivalent to a royal guard alien or a praetorian, but faster.

Prove it. I want to see these xenos taking main cannon rounds to the face and getting back up to shred said tanks and throw cars at flying helicopters and jumping up several stories or across city blocks.

The tanks frequently fell victim to the same poor conditions I described earlier which is close quarters. The only reason they could survive the hunters is because there were relatively few of them and they made obvious targets from a distance. Aliens have comparable speed and enough strength to get the job done, but they are smaller, are far less obvious and are far far more numerous. Redlight's big guns were few and far between in a sea of retarded cannon fodder zombies.

The only reason Mercer could survive you mean.

Again, prove this strenght claim.

Xenos far smaller and less durable you mean. They'd die in droves against machine gun fire, just like they do in Aliens.

June 14, 2011

Prove it. I want to see these xenos taking main cannon rounds to the face and getting back up to shred said tanks and throw cars at flying helicopters.

Xenos far smaller and less durable you mean. They'd die in droves against machine gun fire, just like they do in Aliens.

The machine guns in ALIENS are more advanced than your normal weaponry. The bullets are higher caliber and armor piercing rounds.

In AVP2 the army shot at the aliens and it took almost an entire clip to kill one alien.

The xenos dont have to be stronger because the massive numbers will make up for the difference. You seem to forget that if 1 Alien gets on top of a tank and gets shot, the acid will eat through and disable the tank. Also the Aliens are fast and small making them harder targets to hit as oppose to the giant monsters in prototype.

June 14, 2011

The machine guns in ALIENS are more advanced than your normal weaponry. The bullets are higher caliber and armor piercing rounds.

M41 Pulse Rifle:

It is an air cooled, gas-operated, electrically-primed assault rifle that fires a 10x24mm caseless cartridge. The round is designed to inflict serious damage, boasting a steel-jacketed, high explosive armor piercing tip.

10mm rounds exist today.

M4 Pistol:

The M4A3 and M4A4 pistols were semi-automatic 9mm (.380) calibre handgun used as Standard Issue for the USCM in the early 23rd century.

It proved effective against the lightly armoured Drones on LV-429 but failed against Predators and Xenoborgs due to their heavy armor and high endurance.

Xenos were killed in a few shots by this pistol on LV-426 by Vasquez.

In AVP2 the army shot at the aliens and it took almost an entire clip to kill one alien.

Post a video then.

The xenos dont have to be stronger because the massive numbers will make up for the difference. You seem to forget that if 1 Alien gets on top of a tank and gets shot, the acid will eat through and disable the tank. Also the Aliens are fast and small making them harder targets to hit as oppose to the giant monsters in prototype.

Nope, swarms of xenos will simply be killed en masse by machine gun fire from MG nests, armor mounted .50 cals and similar. In open ground they'll be smashed by air support and armor support.

And the xenos won't get a drop on Blackwatch once they program their UAVs and scanners to sniff out xeno pheromones.

June 14, 2011

Post a video then.

Nope, swarms of xenos will simply be killed en masse by machine gun fire from MG nests, armor mounted .50 cals and similar. In open ground they'll be smashed by air support and armor support.

And the xenos won't get a drop on Blackwatch once they program their UAVs and scanners to sniff out xeno pheromones.

1. working on finding the scene

2. The result will cause them to be overrun in the end by the swarms coming from all sides and underneath. The aliens arent dumb and mindless like the zombies and the aliens punch move faster than blackwatch's normal targets and much to fast for a machine gun nest to hit if the aliens try to dodge it.

3. by the time they get that up and running half the city will be changed.

4. they will not be able to contain the aliens in a city as large as Manhattan.

AVP vs The Terminator · June 14, 2011

Well, I thought there were continuities for Aliens and AvP.

So which one are we using?

The Aliens series and the AvP series are set in the same continuity.

Indolent · June 14, 2011

The Aliens series and the AvP series are set in the same continuity.

I thought it was different due to the presence of the Yaujta. Ah, whatevs.

Indolent · June 14, 2011

Pretty sure a Leader Hunter would be too much for the best the Xenos have to offer.

AVP vs The Terminator · June 14, 2011

I thought it was different due to the presence of the Yaujta. Ah, whatevs.

Ah. It's difficult to find any link between the two since the AvP movies take place on Earth in the present and the Alien movies take place in the future, but the existence of Weyland (A character who is mentioned a few times in the Alien franchise and makes a brief appearance in the first AvP) ties the two together.

Indolent · June 14, 2011

Ah. It's difficult to find any link between the two since the AvP movies take place on Earth in the present and the Alien movies take place in the future, but the existence of Weyland (A character who is mentioned a few times in the Alien franchise and makes a brief appearance in the first AvP) ties the two together.

I'm aware of who Weyland is. He's the one who creates a corporation that in the future creates Androids. Bishop looks like him.

And he's the dude in AVP who's stricken with cancer.

AVP vs The Terminator · June 14, 2011

I'm aware of who Weyland is. He's the one who creates a corporation that in the future creates Androids. Bishop looks like him.

And he's the dude in AVP who's stricken with cancer.

Yes.

June 14, 2011

1. working on finding the scene

2. The result will cause them to be overrun in the end by the swarms coming from all sides and underneath. The aliens arent dumb and mindless like the zombies and the aliens punch move faster than blackwatch's normal targets and much to fast for a machine gun nest to hit if the aliens try to dodge it.

3. by the time they get that up and running half the city will be changed.

4. they will not be able to contain the aliens in a city as large as Manhattan.

1: Alright, I'll wait.

2: Right, they'll dodge machine gun fire just like they did in Aliens when they overrann the two sentry guns with no casualties. Again, they are not simply up against bullets, grenades, flamethrowers, automatic weaponry, airstrikes, artillery support and armor support are all about. Also, there's no reason at all Blackwatch can't seal up the manholes/etc and funnel the xenos through chokepoints.

3: Why does everyone assume Blackwatch will just let people mill about in xeno infested areas? The first thing they'll do when they discover how xenos spread is simply move everyone out of Manhattan or, barring that, kill everyone in Manhattan. The spread of xenos stops, their numbers whittle down and they lose. Also, they took only a few days to get the UAVs online and that only because the other methods of finding Mercer failed, and the outbreak was limited to short areas while Greene hid about. In the OP these xenos are suddenly appearing all over the place in swarms, they'll start using harsher measures faster.

4: Because what? Because xenos spread slowly and replenish their numbers in a slow method? Because everytime they want to produce more they have to go up against armed men and require perfect kill death ratios?

June 14, 2011

M41 Pulse Rifle:
It is an air cooled, gas-operated, electrically-primed assault rifle that fires a 10x24mm caseless cartridge. The round is designed to inflict serious damage, boasting a steel-jacketed, high explosive armor piercing tip.

10mm rounds exist today.

I doubt explosive tipped versions are that common.

Xenos were killed in a few shots by this pistol on LV-426 by Vasquez.

Because she unloaded the clip into it's face at point blank range.

Post a video then.

That's a little more difficult then you'd think. Clips from the movie are few and far between, while the internet is absolutely stuffed with crappy fan made videos and old gameplay videos from the game.

Nope, swarms of xenos will simply be killed en masse by machine gun fire from MG nests, armor mounted .50 cals and similar. In open ground they'll be smashed by air support and armor support.

And the xenos won't get a drop on Blackwatch once they program their UAVs and scanners to sniff out xeno pheromones.

Once again, close quarters, utter anarchy and chaos, and an enemy that is coming from every direction in large numbers. Machine guns are not magic-kill-everything machines. Why would they program their UAVs to use pheromones? The only reason they did it with Redlight is because it was spreading in an obvious air-bourne manner. The Humans in alien only figured that out after years of research and continuous contact. Besides, humans give off pheromones too. Why can't we track people the same way?

1: Alright, I'll wait.

2: Right, they'll dodge machine gun fire just like they did in Aliens when they overrann the two sentry guns with no casualties. Again, they are not simply up against bullets, grenades, flamethrowers, automatic weaponry, airstrikes, artillery support and armor support are all about. Also, there's no reason at all Blackwatch can't seal up the manholes/etc and funnel the xenos through chokepoints.

3: Why does everyone assume Blackwatch will just let people mill about in xeno infested areas? The first thing they'll do when they discover how xenos spread is simply move everyone out of Manhattan or, barring that, kill everyone in Manhattan. The spread of xenos stops, their numbers whittle down and they lose. Also, they took only a few days to get the UAVs online and that only because the other methods of finding Mercer failed, and the outbreak was limited to short areas while Greene hid about. In the OP these xenos are suddenly appearing all over the place in swarms, they'll start using harsher measures faster.

4: Because what? Because xenos spread slowly and replenish their numbers in a slow method? Because everytime they want to produce more they have to go up against armed men and require perfect kill death ratios?

1: Like I said, getting vids from the movie is next to impossible. But I too will continue looking.

2: In case you forgot, those two sentry guns were pointing straight down a hallway with no obstacles, no other unnecessary movement, and a perfect sight line. The aliens couldn't go anywhere else, and were funnels into a tube of death. The streets of Manhattan are a different matter. Cars and wreckage will be piled all over the place, people will be running all over the place and the xenos will have virtually unlimited engagement options.

3: They certainly let them do it with Redlight. Besides the only way to 'keep something out' is when you have control of the area, or a solid perimeter, neither of which has any guarantee. Move them out of the city? That's hilarious :ph34r: You mean to move a million people out of an entire city, in the middle of a crisis while being attacked by thousands of monsters? Not to mention the thousands who will be impregnated.

4: And once again, you have't posted any evidence of how they will somehow be able to keep said xenos on the island. Who's to say a new swarm won't be awaiting the refugees on the other side? Redlight was contained because the infected couldn't swim. They even stated, in-game, that if Redlight were to cross the water they would have no hope of stopping it. So really 'containing' Redlight meant putting tanks and turrets on the bridge and blasting everything that moved.

June 14, 2011

I doubt explosive tipped versions are that common.

Because she unloaded the clip into it's face at point blank range.

That's a little more difficult then you'd think. Clips from the movie are few and far between, while the internet is absolutely stuffed with crappy fan made videos and old gameplay videos from the game.

And the explosive tipped versions are needed? Where's your evidence for this?

Aliens: Look at 1:55:00, the xeno lands on top of Vasquez, and she fires 6 shots and the xeno was already dying. After that she kicks its head against the wall and fires her remaining shots, but since the xeno was no longer fighting back at this point it was either dead or near death anyways.

BTW I just linked you to the entire movie, and you claim you can't do the same to back up your arguments? Like I said, the Internet has more video hosting sites than just Youtube.

Once again, close quarters, utter anarchy and chaos, and an enemy that is coming from every direction in large numbers. Machine guns are not magic-kill-everything machines. Why would they program their UAVs to use pheromones? The only reason they did it with Redlight is because it was spreading in an obvious air-bourne manner. The Humans in alien only figured that out after years of research and continuous contact. Besides, humans give off pheromones too. Why can't we track people the same way?

Machine guns are as you say, not magic kill everything machines, but machines can kill xenos, especially if they are out in streets or climbing down buildings in broad daylight. Also, it's not just machine guns and assault rifles, but missile launchers, grenade launchers and air support and armor support.

Why would they use UAVs? Because Blackwatch isn't stupid, they'll simply test some xeno corpses and realize "Hey, these things give off smells, signals, etc, why don't we use these to hunt them down?" From there they'll just call up their techs and program UAVs to sniff them out.

Also, what does it matter if we in the real world can't do what they can do in Protoype? We don't have faster than light travel either, yet the Alien setting does.

1: Like I said, getting vids from the movie is next to impossible. But I too will continue looking.

2: In case you forgot, those two sentry guns were pointing straight down a hallway with no obstacles, no other unnecessary movement, and a perfect sight line. The aliens couldn't go anywhere else, and were funnels into a tube of death. The streets of Manhattan are a different matter. Cars and wreckage will be piled all over the place, people will be running all over the place and the xenos will have virtually unlimited engagement options.

3: They certainly let them do it with Redlight. Besides the only way to 'keep something out' is when you have control of the area, or a solid perimeter, neither of which has any guarantee. Move them out of the city? That's hilarious You mean to move a million people out of an entire city, in the middle of a crisis while being attacked by thousands of monsters? Not to mention the thousands who will be impregnated.

4: And once again, you have't posted any evidence of how they will somehow be able to keep said xenos on the island. Who's to say a new swarm won't be awaiting the refugees on the other side? Redlight was contained because the infected couldn't swim. They even stated, in-game, that if Redlight were to cross the water they would have no hope of stopping it. So really 'containing' Redlight meant putting tanks and turrets on the bridge and blasting everything that moved.

1: Great. Then until you can back up those claims I'll ignore them.

2: Right, so how are the xenos going to engage Blackwatch? What stops Blackwatch from simply helicoptering unto rooftops and shooting down xenos as they climb up the walls? What stops Blackwatch from simply covering up the manholes? From fortifying subway entrances? And yes, the streets of Manhattan are a different matter, because here Blackwatch can call in airstrikes and artillery support. Blackwatch also has more resources than the people at LV-426.

Again, what does it matter if people are running everywhere? Blackwatch doesn't care, they'll shot at civilians if it means they can kill a xeno. Also, every dead civilian is one less potential host for the xenos, from their point of view it'd be a perfectly good decision to grenade a group of xenos carrying off humans.

3: They let them do this to the people in Manhattan in the events of Prototype because that situation is different. They can't cart people off the island because each of them is a potential carrier for the REDLIGHT virus. It's easier to check for xeno embryos (a simple questionnaire on whether they've come in contact with the xenos or facehuggers, and an x-ray scan).

And if Blackwatch can't move the people out in an orderly fashion they'll just bomb the city. Again, Blackwatch doesn't care about the casualties, they'll nuke Manhattan if they want to.

4: Why would there be a new swarm on the other side? What's keeping any non-idiot government from noticing masses of missing people (except the OP conditions, which somehow had 80,000 people disappear without notice)Who cares if a single drone escapes? How long does it take it to develop into a Queen and establish a hive? Tell me why the xenos will immediately start going out to establish new hives?

Nothing stops Blackwatch from nuking the surface, eliminating any cover that xenos can use to run about and hide. From there they can just start setting up scanners along the coast of Manhattan island and responding to any intrusions.

The underground subways, sewers, etc can all be sealed off or fortified.

June 15, 2011

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And the explosive tipped versions are needed? Where's your evidence for this?

Aliens: Look at 1:55:00, the xeno lands on top of Vasquez, and she fires 6 shots and the xeno was already dying. After that she kicks its head against the wall and fires her remaining shots, but since the xeno was no longer fighting back at this point it was either dead or near death anyways.

BTW I just linked you to the entire movie, and you claim you can't do the same to back up your arguments? Like I said, the Internet has more video hosting sites than just Youtube.

The explosive tips aren't needed but they make killing xenos many times more efficient. Where did you link me the full movie?

Machine guns are as you say, not magic kill everything machines, but machines can kill xenos, especially if they are out in streets or climbing down buildings in broad daylight. Also, it's not just machine guns and assault rifles, but missile launchers, grenade launchers and air support and armor support.

Why would they use UAVs? Because Blackwatch isn't stupid, they'll simply test some xeno corpses and realize "Hey, these things give off smells, signals, etc, why don't we use these to hunt them down?" From there they'll just call up their techs and program UAVs to sniff them out.

You realize the only reason Blackwatch had a snowball's chance in hell against Redlight is because the VAST majority of infected were staggering retards and each soldier could easily get a 20:1 kill ratio with little effort. Replace every single zombie with a xenomorph and that changes rapidly.

Blackwatch isn't stupid, but they also aren't magically intelligent either. I fail to see the mental jump from "these things smell a bit different" to "ZOMG they use pheromones to communicate and therefore we can track them with modified UAVs!"

To think they could figure something out in a few days what a more sophisticated military did in a few years is a vast overestimation.

Also, what does it matter if we in the real world can't do what they can do in Protoype? We don't have faster than light travel either, yet the Alien setting does.

It's not that they couldn't do it, only that they would definitely think of it till much much later.

1: Great. Then until you can back up those claims I'll ignore them.

2: Right, so how are the xenos going to engage Blackwatch? What stops Blackwatch from simply helicoptering unto rooftops and shooting down xenos as they climb up the walls? What stops Blackwatch from simply covering up the manholes? From fortifying subway entrances? And yes, the streets of Manhattan are a different matter, because here Blackwatch can call in airstrikes and artillery support. Blackwatch also has more resources than the people at LV-426.

Again, what does it matter if people are running everywhere? Blackwatch doesn't care, they'll shot at civilians if it means they can kill a xeno. Also, every dead civilian is one less potential host for the xenos, from their point of view it'd be a perfectly good decision to grenade a group of xenos carrying off humans.

3: They let them do this to the people in Manhattan in the events of Prototype because that situation is different. They can't cart people off the island because each of them is a potential carrier for the REDLIGHT virus. It's easier to check for xeno embryos (a simple questionnaire on whether they've come in contact with the xenos or facehuggers, and an x-ray scan).

And if Blackwatch can't move the people out in an orderly fashion they'll just bomb the city. Again, Blackwatch doesn't care about the casualties, they'll nuke Manhattan if they want to.

4: Why would there be a new swarm on the other side? What's keeping any non-idiot government from noticing masses of missing people (except the OP conditions, which somehow had 80,000 people disappear without notice)Who cares if a single drone escapes? How long does it take it to develop into a Queen and establish a hive? Tell me why the xenos will immediately start going out to establish new hives?

1: Once again. Stuffed with fan vids, trailers and useless crap. That scene isn't anywhere an you'll be better off renting the damn thing. If ou can think of a good site where I could find that scene it would be a big help. Dailymotion and others have nothing.

2: At great speed and from every direction why do you ask? If they can barely handle hordes of bitey-people with a few super monsters here and there I don't see why they should be able to handle what is essentially an army of mini-hunters with acid. What was stopping Blackwatch from doing the same with Redlight? Nothing, only that because of the tightly packed skyscrapers they couldn't provide the adequate support needed for it to work as it should have. Xenos can make their own tunnels and exits so the point is moot really. They do have more resources then the people at LV-426, but not more then the humans on earth at the time, who fell for all the reasons mentioned.

It doesn't matter how much Blackwatch cares. I never said they would. I was just pointing out the difference between shooting down a clear hallway and shooting in a carnage-pit with screaming civilians and their vehicles running left and right.

3: Alright get a million and a half people (the ones they were shootign at and purging earlier mind you) to go through careful quarantining process in little groups while a swarm of alien kill-machines are bearing down on you. Tell me how that works out for you. Besides, would you fill out a questionnaire if you knew you would get shot and burned if you answered a certain way?

Nuking the city just removes all the hosts and gives the xenos no reason to stay there. They will simply move into the rest of the city or the ocean itself and start anew.

4: It doesn't really matter if people start noticing more missing people. Alien infestations tend to keep themselves somewhat hidden until the time is right, and nobody will be able to do anything about it until it's too late. Blackwatch will have nearly all it's attention and resources focused on containing Manhattan, leaving less competent government forces to do the same job. I'm not terribly sure about the length of the metamorphosis time but from what happened in the AVP3 game I'd imagine it can be as fast as needed. 6 likely morphed into a praetorian during the trip from the planet to the ship in orbit and then turned into a queen a few hours later.Like everything else with the alien's really as fast as it needs to be.

Nothing stops Blackwatch from nuking the surface, eliminating any cover that xenos can use to run about and hide. From there they can just start setting up scanners along the coast of Manhattan island and responding to any intrusions.

The underground subways, sewers, etc can all be sealed off or fortified.

That's true, but again the underground xenos lose any reason for staying there and eventually force their way into New York, depending on how many there are. This is of course assuming absolutely none escaped in the time before they nuked the city.

June 15, 2011

The explosive tips aren't needed but they make killing xenos many times more efficient. Where did you link me the full movie?

It makes it more efficient? How do you know they aren't wasting overly expensive ammo when simple normal 9mm would do? Here's a hint, you don't.

Click the word Aliens, it's a link to the entire full movie. I even gave you a timestamp.

You realize the only reason Blackwatch had a snowball's chance in hell against Redlight is because the VAST majority of infected were staggering retards and each soldier could easily get a 20:1 kill ratio with little effort. Replace every single zombie with a xenomorph and that changes rapidly.

Blackwatch isn't stupid, but they also aren't magically intelligent either. I fail to see the mental jump from "these things smell a bit different" to "ZOMG they use pheromones to communicate and therefore we can track them with modified UAVs!"
To think they could figure something out in a few days what a more sophisticated military did in a few years is a vast overestimation.

It's not that they couldn't do it, only that they would definitely think of it till much much later

And? What does it matter if the average REDLIGHT was a running zombie (they actually run, so I don't know where you are getting this "staggering zombie" thing, specifically, watch the intro movie). And again, this has what to do with Blackwatch having access to the same weaponry (and more) that allowed the marines on LV-426 to kill xenos in droves and acheive at least 2 to 1 kill death ratios?

Blackwatch is trained specifically to deal with biological threats, so yes, they would think about things such as programming UAVs to sniff out xenos (they did it to Mercer and REDLIGHT) and yes, in less than 3 weeks they canonically had supersoldiers with controlled strains of BLACKLIGHT and had developed Substance A-113A around the same time. So they are quick thinkers when it comes to biological threads.

1: Once again. Stuffed with fan vids, trailers and useless crap. That scene isn't anywhere an you'll be better off renting the damn thing. If ou can think of a good site where I could find that scene it would be a big help. Dailymotion and others have nothing.

2: At great speed and from every direction why do you ask? If they can barely handle hordes of bitey-people with a few super monsters here and there I don't see why they should be able to handle what is essentially an army of mini-hunters with acid. What was stopping Blackwatch from doing the same with Redlight? Nothing, only that because of the tightly packed skyscrapers they couldn't provide the adequate support needed for it to work as it should have. Xenos can make their own tunnels and exits so the point is moot really. They do have more resources then the people at LV-426, but not more then the humans on earth at the time, who fell for all the reasons mentioned.

It doesn't matter how much Blackwatch cares. I never said they would. I was just pointing out the difference between shooting down a clear hallway and shooting in a carnage-pit with screaming civilians and their vehicles running left and right.

3: Alright get a million and a half people (the ones they were shootign at and purging earlier mind you) to go through careful quarantining process in little groups while a swarm of alien kill-machines are bearing down on you. Tell me how that works out for you. Besides, would you fill out a questionnaire if you knew you would get shot and burned if you answered a certain way?

Nuking the city just removes all the hosts and gives the xenos no reason to stay there. They will simply move into the rest of the city or the ocean itself and start anew.

4: It doesn't really matter if people start noticing more missing people. Alien infestations tend to keep themselves somewhat hidden until the time is right, and nobody will be able to do anything about it until it's too late. Blackwatch will have nearly all it's attention and resources focused on containing Manhattan, leaving less competent government forces to do the same job. I'm not terribly sure about the length of the metamorphosis time but from what happened in the AVP3 game I'd imagine it can be as fast as needed. 6 likely morphed into a praetorian during the trip from the planet to the ship in orbit and then turned into a queen a few hours later.Like everything else with the alien's really as fast as it needs to be.

1: Megavideo.

2: Except I'm still waiting on your evidence that xenos are "minihunters" that would require full clips of fire to bring down from assault rifles. I'm still waiting for you to show me evidence of xenos building their own tunnels and reworking the sewer systems. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how they are going to deal with armor and air support.

And again, you seem to think that Blackwatch is only shooting with bullets instead of firing missiles, grenade launchers, etc. Crowds of people or whatever aren't going to give the xenos cover.

3: Again, no reason Blackwatch has to actually save the people, fire bombings will work just as well to eliminate potential hosts just as well as relocating the people.

And actually, it doesn't remove all the hosts. Blackwatch is still there, I'm also wondering how many of the xenos came out in the initial wave? All of them? Then they are all dead, and it's a comparitavely easier stroll towards the Queens.

BTW, there's another claim you want to make, so back it up. How fast can an alien hive relocate?

4: You are seriously telling me that no one will notice thousands of people going missing? Also how do you know Blackwatch will be tied up with Manhattan, and won't finish the operation in a short timeframe, other than your xeno = hunters and xenos = very hard to kill arguments? You still haven't answered how long a hive takes to bring up, so why are you assuming it'll be just fast enough to have another few thousand xenos guards by the time Blackwatch shows up?

That's true, but again the underground xenos lose any reason for staying there and eventually force their way into New York, depending on how many there are. This is of course assuming absolutely none escaped in the time before they nuked the city.

Except that is the surface is cleared (nuke, carpet bombing, whatever) and Blackwatch is simply patrolling the coastline and can close up the underground exists then they can't leave.

BTW: BLACKLIGHT and REDLIGHT.

BLACKLIGHT is incapable of crossing bodies of water, REDLIGHT has no such limitation.

June 15, 2011

It makes it more efficient? How do you know they aren't wasting overly expensive ammo when simple normal 9mm would do? Here's a hint, you don't.

Click the word Aliens, it's a link to the entire full movie. I even gave you a timestamp.

Ah yes, there we go. Yes as shown Gorman has to unload his pistol into the xeno's face, also at point blank to kill it. Much more durable then your average zombie

And? What does it matter if the average REDLIGHT was a running zombie (they actually run, so I don't know where you are getting this "staggering zombie" thing, specifically, watch the intro movie). And again, this has what to do with Blackwatch having access to the same weaponry (and more) that allowed the marines on LV-426 to kill xenos in droves and acheive at least 2 to 1 kill death ratios?

Blackwatch is trained specifically to deal with biological threats, so yes, they would think about things such as programming UAVs to sniff out xenos (they did it to Mercer and REDLIGHT) and yes, in less than 3 weeks they canonically had supersoldiers with controlled strains of BLACKLIGHT and had developed Substance A-113A around the same time. So they are quick thinkers when it comes to biological threads.

No, they actually don't run. Those are just the evolved infected so don't try to pull that one on me. The vast majority move at a stagger akin to jogging speed. The soldiers gun those down a dime a dozen but as soon as the evolved running infected get involved things go to hell very quickly. Most of their ammunition is neither armor piercing nor explosive. Standard 5.56mm ammo is shown to only be partially effective against them.

The only reason they knew to think of Redlight sniffers is because of the obvious way it spread through the air. The discovery that xenos communicate through pheromones was only discovered after multiple contacts and years of research. There is no reason to think that they would discover this about xenos so quickly, even if they had the time.

1: Megavideo.

2: Except I'm still waiting on your evidence that xenos are "minihunters" that would require full clips of fire to bring down from assault rifles. I'm still waiting for you to show me evidence of xenos building their own tunnels and reworking the sewer systems. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how they are going to deal with armor and air support.

And again, you seem to think that Blackwatch is only shooting with bullets instead of firing missiles, grenade launchers, etc. Crowds of people or whatever aren't going to give the xenos cover.

3: Again, no reason Blackwatch has to actually save the people, fire bombings will work just as well to eliminate potential hosts just as well as relocating the people.

And actually, it doesn't remove all the hosts. Blackwatch is still there, I'm also wondering how many of the xenos came out in the initial wave? All of them? Then they are all dead, and it's a comparitavely easier stroll towards the Queens.

BTW, there's another claim you want to make, so back it up. How fast can an alien hive relocate?

4: You are seriously telling me that no one will notice thousands of people going missing? Also how do you know Blackwatch will be tied up with Manhattan, and won't finish the operation in a short timeframe, other than your xeno = hunters and xenos = very hard to kill arguments? You still haven't answered how long a hive takes to bring up, so why are you assuming it'll be just fast enough to have another few thousand xenos guards by the time Blackwatch shows up?

1: Megavideo has nothing

2: They run close to the same speed and can soak up more damage then the average zombie. They are a step above the evolved infected, but a step below hunter. Hence the term mini-hunter. Not a scientific definition and not 100% accurate but that's the closest equivalent to Redlight I can think of. Evidence? Ahem: Aliens Omnibus pg 285 panel 1. "It-it's difficult to be sure but the tunnels appear to converge into a central locus-like spokes on a wheel." Happy? The Aliens dig their own tunnels and make their own structures where needed. I told you again and again how they will deal with armored support. The same way the hunters and evolved infected do. Bog them down in close range fighting and then rip them open. That's just normal drones and warriors too. Any praetorian or royal guard would tear into an Abrams like tin foil. A royal guard actually put it's face through an APC's armor like it wasn't even there. And again, air support will run into the same problem it did in the games. Too many obstructions and not enough open area.

3: I never said they would. You did remember? Attacking civilians has it's own risks though. Anybody brave enough to use a gun is going to use it, and it turns into a brief war a midst the infestation, which would again seriously hamper containment efforts

4: No, but once they do it's too late. More xenos will crop up fast resulting in MORE missing people and so on. Besides nothing says they have to go for New York. They could just as easily swim across to Europe, or Africa, even even the bottom of the ocean and start infestations there. For the many reasons mentioned the xenos are not going to be a quick and easy go away issue. I've never said xenos are "very hard to kill" Just a lot harder then your bog standard zombie.

Except that is the surface is cleared (nuke, carpet bombing, whatever) and Blackwatch is simply patrolling the coastline and can close up the underground exists then they can't leave.

BTW: BLACKLIGHT and REDLIGHT.
BLACKLIGHT is incapable of crossing bodies of water, REDLIGHT has no such limitation.

Tunnels remember? And what if the xenos start spilling out before they can close up the underground? As I recall it was specifically stated that if the infected could swim they would have no way of stopping it, showing floating infected corpses to prove the point.

June 15, 2011

Ah yes, there we go. Yes as shown Gorman has to unload his pistol into the xeno's face, also at point blank to kill it. Much more durable then your average zombie

Unless he shot it with his entire clip to make sure it was dead. Again, Vasquez shot one 6 times, and it was wounded enough that it put up no further fight as she pinned it against the wall and continued firing.

No, they actually don't run. Those are just the evolved infected so don't try to pull that one on me. The vast majority move at a stagger akin to jogging speed. The soldiers gun those down a dime a dozen but as soon as the evolved running infected get involved things go to hell very quickly. Most of their ammunition is neither armor piercing nor explosive. Standard 5.56mm ammo is shown to only be partially effective against them.

The only reason they knew to think of Redlight sniffers is because of the obvious way it spread through the air. The discovery that xenos communicate through pheromones was only discovered after multiple contacts and years of research. There is no reason to think that they would discover this about xenos so quickly, even if they had the time.

Prototype 1:40 and on. Evolved infected and things didn't go to hell, at all.

Show evidence that xenos require armor piercing or explosive weaponry.

Whatever Weyland-Yutani was doing, they pretty obviously missed things that should have been found out in a while. A captured xeno in a cell would start setting off any gizmo's Blackwatch has got set up to detect foreign contaigants in the air. It'd be easy from there, that Weyland-Yutani took a while to discover this is irrelevant. Again, within 3 weeks of BLACKLIGHT escaping Blackwatch already have a tamed version that produced no casualties on injection and gave them super soldiers, developed UAV sniffers, and Substance A-113A.

1: Megavideo has nothing

2: They run close to the same speed and can soak up more damage then the average zombie. They are a step above the evolved infected, but a step below hunter. Hence the term mini-hunter. Not a scientific definition and not 100% accurate but that's the closest equivalent to Redlight I can think of. Evidence? Ahem: Aliens Omnibus pg 285 panel 1. "It-it's difficult to be sure but the tunnels appear to converge into a central locus-like spokes on a wheel." Happy? The Aliens dig their own tunnels and make their own structures where needed. I told you again and again how they will deal with armored support. The same way the hunters and evolved infected do. Bog them down in close range fighting and then rip them open. That's just normal drones and warriors too. Any praetorian or royal guard would tear into an Abrams like tin foil. A royal guard actually put it's face through an APC's armor like it wasn't even there. And again, air support will run into the same problem it did in the games. Too many obstructions and not enough open area.

3: I never said they would. You did remember? Attacking civilians has it's own risks though. Anybody brave enough to use a gun is going to use it, and it turns into a brief war a midst the infestation, which would again seriously hamper containment efforts

4: No, but once they do it's too late. More xenos will crop up fast resulting in MORE missing people and so on. Besides nothing says they have to go for New York. They could just as easily swim across to Europe, or Africa, even even the bottom of the ocean and start infestations there. For the many reasons mentioned the xenos are not going to be a quick and easy go away issue. I've never said xenos are "very hard to kill" Just a lot harder then your bog standard zombie.

1: Search harder.

2: Here's what: you should start proving:

xenos require entire clips from modern assault rifles/xenos can stand up to modern weaponry with some resistance

xenos can rip apart tanks just like hunters can

Air support will have trouble in Manhattan. After all, you say it happens in the game? Show some quotes or video. Prove it.

Armor support will ahve trouble in Manhattan. After all, you say it happens in the game? Show some quotes or video. Prove it.

Also what exactly is that quote refering to? Was this in a taken over base or xeno hive? Did they simply seal off areas, making all pathways lead towards the center, or did they actually build their own tunnels? Because that quote, without more context, tells me next to nothing.

3: Right, a "brief war" between some New Yorker with a handgun or shotgun (at best) going up against trained soldiers with automatic weaponry, grenade and missile launchers, tanks and armor support. Of course. The armed population will totally be a hamper in Blackwatch's operations.

Also, I see you didn't bother to elaborate on my question, how long does it take to set up a new hive?

4: How long does it take to set up a hive? Repeating your argument, when you are asked to back it up with some evidence, isn't a great debate technique. You say "No, but once they do it's too late" in regards to xenos setting up new hives before Blackwatch can find them. Ok, how do you know this? How long does it take a xeno to hide, morph into a queen (you showed a good estimate with your Specimen 6 example), lay eggs, get hosts to make drones and warriors to guard the hive and search for more hosts.

Tunnels remember? And what if the xenos start spilling out before they can close up the underground? As I recall it was specifically stated that if the infected could swim they would have no way of stopping it, showing floating infected corpses to prove the point.

Your above quote doesn't show that xenos can dig their own tunnels. And again, Blackwatch quarantined all of Manhattan in Prototype, it's obvious that they were able to quarantine subways, sewers etc leading out of Manhattan.

Oh really? Show me a quote or video. They mention several times that BLACKLIGHT can't cross bodies of water, they say they want ships carrying refugees to be sunk immediately, they mention garbage ships hauling and burning corpses. I don't remember infected corpses in the water.

June 15, 2011

Atom, I feel inclined to tell you that coming into a topic and randomly announcing that you find this site sub-par compared to Spacebattles is very bad form.

I'm inclined to agree with Ruinus here. While it's possible for the Xenos to break containment, my money's on Blackwatch. They have pretty insane adaptability and response time when it comes to unconventional biological threats.

The whole "Xenos can take a whole magazine from an M4" argument is a bit silly. We saw quite a few of them get dropped when they ambushed the National Guard, and they had the benefit of surprise. In addition, Kelley killed several of them in pretty extreme close-quarters with that M4, so obvious she wasn't too disadvantaged against them. And she was either alone or with a group of civilians for crying out loud -- one soldier who never even served in a ground combat role.

Blackwatch will know exactly what they're walking into and will be infinitely more trained and experienced, not to mention they'll have full combined arms support. And if something does start to go wrong, there's always the nuclear option.

June 15, 2011

Atom, I feel inclined to tell you that coming into a topic and randomly announcing that you find this site sub-par compared to Spacebattles is very bad form.

It's especially awesome when you consider he keeps throwing out claims that he largely doesn't bother to back up.

June 15, 2011

Unless he shot it with his entire clip to make sure it was dead. Again, Vasquez shot one 6 times, and it was wounded enough that it put up no further fight as she pinned it against the wall and continued firing.

Prototype 1:40 and on. Evolved infected and things didn't go to hell, at all.

Show evidence that xenos require armor piercing or explosive weaponry.

Whatever Weyland-Yutani was doing, they pretty obviously missed things that should have been found out in a while. A captured xeno in a cell would start setting off any gizmo's Blackwatch has got set up to detect foreign contaigants in the air. It'd be easy from there, that Weyland-Yutani took a while to discover this is irrelevant. Again, within 3 weeks of BLACKLIGHT escaping Blackwatch already have a tamed version that produced no casualties on injection and gave them super soldiers, developed UAV sniffers, and Substance A-113A.

Actually Gordon's first few shots show nothing but sparks, indicating that the bullets weren't penetrating the exoskeleton at all. The xeno was wounded no doubt and I never said the shots wouldn't, but each kill seemed to take a full clip at point blank.

You never played the game much then did you? Those were confined in an alleyway and were the only targets ANYWHERE. In-game however it's much different. Soldiers are frequently massacred by the evolved infected unless they have armored support or are packing explosive weapons.

Once again, I never said that explosive ammunition is a required necessity, but unless you want a positive kill it certainly helps.

1: Search harder.

2: Here's what: you should start proving:

xenos require entire clips from modern assault rifles/xenos can stand up to modern weaponry with some resistance

xenos can rip apart tanks just like hunters can

Air support will have trouble in Manhattan. After all, you say it happens in the game? Show some quotes or video. Prove it.

Armor support will ahve trouble in Manhattan. After all, you say it happens in the game? Show some quotes or video. Prove it.

Not the best example but here you go. 1:14:08 Modern soldiers getting hilariously slaughtered by a relatively small amount of xenos. The xeno's are getting killed by the assault rifles but are clearly taking extended bursts to do so. Once again, my main point isn't that they are somehow magically immune to modern bullets, but that they are tougher then a bog standard Redlight zombie, which is a pretty basic fact considering that their exoskeletons are said to be as hard as steel.

Drones don't need to rip apart tanks. Just the hatch which is really just a small disc. Alien drones are shown to plow through concrete walls and tear through heavy metal doors so I doubt a tiny hatch is going to stop them. A royal guard put it's face through an armored APC. No tearing or smashing. Just poked it's head straight through the door like it was foil. It would have killed everybody inside if Ripley hadn't blown it's head off. The others then teamed up and started flipping the whole vehicle over. Also you seem to be ignoring the acid issue. Once a xeno is on top of a tank, nothing is going to get it off without spilling blood. There's just no way around it.

Constantly having to provide links and vids for every single claim is tiring and and time consuming. you rarely seem to do it. But

. Notice how low the choppers had to get in order to get a good extended firing line on mercer. That's well within leaping distance for any self respecting xenomorph. Not the greatest example but it's the best I could find as the best examples were encountered by me on a game to game basis.

Also what exactly is that quote refering to? Was this in a taken over base or xeno hive? Did they simply seal off areas, making all pathways lead towards the center, or did they actually build their own tunnels? Because that quote, without more context, tells me next to nothing.

3: Right, a "brief war" between some New Yorker with a handgun or shotgun (at best) going up against trained soldiers with automatic weaponry, grenade and missile launchers, tanks and armor support. Of course. The armed population will totally be a hamper in Blackwatch's operations.

Also, I see you didn't bother to elaborate on my question, how long does it take to set up a new hive?

4: How long does it take to set up a hive? Repeating your argument, when you are asked to back it up with some evidence, isn't a great debate technique. You say "No, but once they do it's too late" in regards to xenos setting up new hives before Blackwatch can find them. Ok, how do you know this? How long does it take a xeno to hide, morph into a queen (you showed a good estimate with your Specimen 6 example), lay eggs, get hosts to make drones and warriors to guard the hive and search for more hosts.

The xenomorphs had dug those tunnels themselves. That's why the people down there found the layout so unfamiliar.

Yes because conflicts between highly advanced militaries and armed civilians are always a stomp on the civ-oh....

Your above quote doesn't show that xenos can dig their own tunnels. And again, Blackwatch quarantined all of Manhattan in Prototype, it's obvious that they were able to quarantine subways, sewers etc leading out of Manhattan.

Oh really? Show me a quote or video. They mention several times that BLACKLIGHT can't cross bodies of water, they say they want ships carrying refugees to be sunk immediately, they mention garbage ships hauling and burning corpses. I don't remember infected corpses in the water.

:ph34r: This link hunting is getting tiring.

4:00 thankfully it is incapable of crossing water bodies. The infected corpses in the water must have been a different one.

There is no indication she outright killed that many. Some took a few hits and ducked. One was even walking into pistol fire with no serious injury until it got blasted by the plasma caster. Even then it got right back up and kept coming until the last of the clip was unloaded into it's broken face (1:28:10)

Btw Redfield I never said the quality of the site is sub-par. The site itself is pretty good. It's the quality in debate I find lacking and I'm not the only one here who's noticed it. You must admit that over half the comments and responses here are "LOL stomp". You and Ruinus are the few that actually speak in whole sentences and paragraphs.

June 15, 2011

Right, so Gordon's pistol is somehow inferior to Vasquez, since she was able to kill one with less than a full clip.

In game the enemies spawn randomly in the location the player character is, so there are no established "lines" anyways.

Ah yes. Another claim that you won't back up. Show evidence that explosive ammunition is required to "positively kill" a xeno.

It clearly took the whole clip to actually kill as a matter of fact. The first 6 shots wounded it and then she finished it with the remaining clip. The same thing happened with Gordon, and remember that in AVPR that xeno was taking pistol fire with no problem until whatsisname blew it away. However notice how after that happened it still got back up. All my point was was that xenos are going to be harder to kill then a zombie, which I have proven several times. Notice how in that clip the xenos had to be riddled in order to be taken down. Even Kelly didn't get that many positive kills. Then go back to the med-lab scene where xenos are getting popped left right and center with comparatively little expended ammo. Large chunks are seen flying off and there is no clear signs of flailing about as they are shot.

Your time stamp was way off, it actually occured from 1:02:17 to about 1:03:41, and at no point do we see extended bursts of machine gun fire needed to drop xenos, because at no point (except once) do we ever see the effects of the assault rifle fire on the xenos. BTW at 1:24:07 O'Brien and the others are attacked on a small bridge thing by some xenos. She's able to kill 3 (maybe more off screen, but 3 actually seen) xenos all by herself with the same clip, where are these extended bursts?

BTW at 1:23:07 there's the police and soldiers holding off xenos at the evacuation site. Yup, dudes with assault rifles, pistols and shotguns holding off these supposed tank shredding xenos. They are only killed when the jet fighter drops a nuclear bomb on them.

Oh, when did this alien put it's face through an APC? You mentioned Ripley, so I assume you are talking about the movie Aliens? Huh, since you don't bother to give some references so I can look it up, I'll have to guess.

Aliens: 1:15:27 a xeno has to hold open the doors to the APC to try to get at the marines inside... something that doesn't make sense if the xeno was strong enough to rip through tanks and APCs.

At 1:16:09 Ripley is driving an APC and a xeno smashes its face through the windshield.

Unless you are talking about another incident, in which case I'd like to see you back it up.

Ah so it was. Well then I place the blame on Megavideo. Their player is atrocious. Every alien killed takes a good second and a half burst to drop and the other few move away before she can finish them. Even then the visible damage is somewhat less then that of a pulse rifle or smartgun who seem to be able to do the same job in less time. Once again, I'm not saying the xenos are miraculously invincible to modern weapons, just that your M16 or M4 is less effective against a xeno then a zombie.

In the omnibus during an attack on the xeno homeworld. Page 315. A marine is standing outside the APC, having escaped the massacre. The royal guard alien is sprinting at him him. He is pulled in at the last minute and the door is sealed. However the guard puts it's face straight through the armored door, only to have it blown off by something that looks like a smartgun.

Once AGAIN, I've never said a drone was strong enough to rip a whole tank open. Just the hatch, which is really quite small and thin compared to everything else. However for a Royal guard or a praetorian that might be a different story.

. You never stopped to consider that the helicopters come close to the ground at you because they are controlled by AI in a game and not actual people?

Also I don't care if it's time consuming, you have to do it. I'm still waiting on you to provide quotes on xeno strenght, durability and now leaping distance. And I've provided much more evidence than you have, I pointed out how Blackwatch can nuke the city and quarantined Manhattan as per the game, I pointed out how Blackwatch has great knowledge on tinkering with biological agents as per the creation and fielding of DX-1120 (a three week old strain of BLACKLIGHT) and Substance A-113A around the same time. I even went as far as to look up the movie Aliens and Aliens versus Predator: Requiem to look up specific counter points to your claims.

That's true. I'm not really saying that Choppers are useless, but they aren't invincible either. Too close to a building at the wrong time or too close to the ground and it's all over.

I'm pissy about the link hunting for a couple reasons. One you rarely back up you claims either, and even tried to pull as fast one on me saying that all Redlight infected sprint, when even the most cursory glance at any gameplay footage proves otherwise. I also have yet to see evidence for building clearing as a combat procedure. Second, I have exams soon, so I don't have tons of time to be souring the internet. But I'm doing my best.

And I"m supposed to know this from the quote itself? No context up until now?

Ah yes, because Taliban forces of men armed with assault rifles, RPGs and IEDs are entirely comparable to lose mobs of gun owners in NY. Right, got you.

No and my apologies, I probably should have explained the context a little further.

Not saying they are directly comparable. Just that even armed and poorly trained civilians can pose some resistance with the right organization and motivation. Not a lot but some.

You have to back up your arguments, so you have to go "link hunting".
Ah yes, you are right. I was confusing REDLIGHT and BLACKLIGHT for a moment, and though REDLIGHT was released in Manhattan. Mixed up Carnival and Manhattan.

This last part wasn't in relation to anything I have yet to say, except in this very post. Odd.

Anyways, the xenos would have no reason to duck if they could survive extended bursts of assault rifle fire, the xenos also don't have self-preservation like that, several of them charge into machine gun fire all the time. So what's more likely, the xenos took a few rounds and ducked, even though they could easily deal with the wounds according to you or the xenos she shot at died?

So do you. I have seen no proof that Blacklight flattens city blocks in order to get a better line of sight. Nor have I seen proof that they have the necessary RnD to be able to figure out years worth of xenobiology in a couple weeks, when they never even did it with Blacklight.

I was commenting on the xenos durability. Walking into pistol fire, getting blasted by and energy cannon and still getting up says something for their durability. It's much more then what even a evolved infected could survive, so it's relevant.

What? What kind of logic is that? Enough 5.56mm bullets can still kill them, so it stands to reason that they should get out of the way before they get shot. Clearly they did have that type of self preservation if it is clearly seen that they scuttled away before they could get shot even more. They clearly can deal with further wounds based on the attack with the plasma caster. But what would be the point? Get crippled and then riddled?

June 16, 2011

It clearly took the whole clip to actually kill as a matter of fact. The first 6 shots wounded it and then she finished it with the remaining clip. The same thing happened with Gordon, and remember that in AVPR that xeno was taking pistol fire with no problem until whatsisname blew it away. However notice how after that happened it still got back up. All my point was was that xenos are going to be harder to kill then a zombie, which I have proven several times. Notice how in that clip the xenos had to be riddled in order to be taken down. Even Kelly didn't get that many positive kills. Then go back to the med-lab scene where xenos are getting popped left right and center with comparatively little expended ammo. Large chunks are seen flying off and there is no clear signs of flailing about as they are shot.

Again, Vasquez was able to pin the xeno down with no effort at all after the first 6 shots and blast its head open. The xeno was probably dying, close enough to dead, or actually dead by that point, and she simply kept at it out of rage. Gordon has no combat experience, he freaked and lost his cool during their first encounter with the xenos. He's probably not a good shot either.

In AVPR Kelly kept several xenos away on one clip. That one xeno kept at it after being shot several times doesn't erase away all the other xenos that are killed by short bursts of fire. In the med lab scene the xenos exploded because they are being shot by explosive rounds.

And again, the evacuees and National Guard were able to hold off the xenos by simply bunkering down behind some cars as cover.

Ah so it was. Well then I place the blame on Megavideo. Their player is atrocious. Every alien killed takes a good second and a half burst to drop and the other few move away before she can finish them. Even then the visible damage is somewhat less then that of a pulse rifle or smartgun who seem to be able to do the same job in less time. Once again, I'm not saying the xenos are miraculously invincible to modern weapons, just that your M16 or M4 is less effective against a xeno then a zombie.

In the omnibus during an attack on the xeno homeworld. Page 315. A marine is standing outside the APC, having escaped the massacre. The royal guard alien is sprinting at him him. He is pulled in at the last minute and the door is sealed. However the guard puts it's face straight through the armored door, only to have it blown off by something that looks like a smartgun.

Once AGAIN, I've never said a drone was strong enough to rip a whole tank open. Just the hatch, which is really quite small and thin compared to everything else. However for a Royal guard or a praetorian that might be a different story.

Even if its less effective (something I don't argue against) it's still not going to be what you were orginally arguing:

In AVP2 the army shot at the aliens and it took almost an entire clip to kill one alien.

It doesn't take almost an entire cilp, it's a burst of fire. Kelly was able to hold off a few xenos with one clip.

I found this post on spacebattles.com on tank hatches:

"Anyway, it depends on the hatch design (there's a ton), its outer handle, its hinge and its interior lock. We're talking anything from a simple rotating slab of armor for a lock on a 75lb flip up hatch with a highly durable simple hinge, to three stage mechanical locks on a recessed hatch with no external access, to a rotating hatch that locks through a high pressure hydraulic system forcing it down after its locked into place through a steel rod into a slot on a spoke.

And that's just on the Abrams."

So even with the hatch being less armored than the main chassis of a battle tank, I'd still doubt a xeno could do it. Remember in Aliens how the xenos didn't immediately rip doors of their hinges as the marines ran into the vents (right before Vasquez and Gorman are killed)? They had trouble with that flimsy door, why would they be able to do this?

Well, since you don't have the quote but at least gave a run down of the situation I'll buy it. Still, there's only 2,000 of these things (and I doubt these go far from the hive anyways). Still they can be shot by missiles, grenades, tanks or air support.

That's true. I'm not really saying that Choppers are useless, but they aren't invincible either. Too close to a building at the wrong time or too close to the ground and it's all over.

I'm pissy about the link hunting for a couple reasons. One you rarely back up you claims either, and even tried to pull as fast one on me saying that all Redlight infected sprint, when even the most cursory glance at any gameplay footage proves otherwise. I also have yet to see evidence for building clearing as a combat procedure. Second, I have exams soon, so I don't have tons of time to be souring the internet. But I'm doing my best.

Ah yes, but notice that. To be in danger they have to be too close to a building (and that assumes the building isn't cleared, or that buildings are around and left standing) or that the chopper is too close to the ground. It's only vulnerable under those conditions, while xenos are vulnerable to choppers under more conditions (being out in the open, being near windows, being in a building that can be leveled by said chopper, etc)

I don't know the ratio of "Walkers" (what we've been calling evolved infected) to normal ones, so I will drop it. I assume that walkers are the ending stages of all the infected and that there would be more walkers in areas where the outbreak initially started.

Also, why would building clearing not be a combat procedure for Blackwatch? A standard practice for military forces just happens to not be on their training list?

No and my apologies, I probably should have explained the context a little further.

Not saying they are directly comparable. Just that even armed and poorly trained civilians can pose some resistance with the right organization and motivation. Not a lot but some.

So you bring up an argument about how some of the civilian population may or may not be a threat to Blackwatch? Alright.

Some of the civilian population may or may not be a threat to the xenos and hamper their assault on Manhattan.

So do you. I have seen no proof that Blacklight flattens city blocks in order to get a better line of sight. Nor have I seen proof that they have the necessary RnD to be able to figure out years worth of xenobiology in a couple weeks, when they never even did it with Blacklight.

I was commenting on the xenos durability. Walking into pistol fire, getting blasted by and energy cannon and still getting up says something for their durability. It's much more then what even a evolved infected could survive, so it's relevant.

What? What kind of logic is that? Enough 5.56mm bullets can still kill them, so it stands to reason that they should get out of the way before they get shot. Clearly they did have that type of self preservation if it is clearly seen that they scuttled away before they could get shot even more. They clearly can deal with further wounds based on the attack with the plasma caster. But what would be the point? Get crippled and then riddled?

They didn't level buildings because obviously they didn't need to, they were able to bring in armor, air and artillery support where and when they needed it. They also can and will do so, again, they were prepared to level all of Manhattan, you think they won't torch a building? Also, I guess you missed the parts where I told you about the BLACKLIGHT super soldier virus which they created less than 3 weeks after Mercer's initial outbreak, the BLOODTOX which was created around the same time as a cancer to BLACKLIGHT? They have ridiculous knowledge on biological warfare.

Walking into pistol fire =/= walking into machine gun fire. That one xeno lived a while is not evidence that all xenos do so, especially considering Kelly's action on the bridge and that the National Guard, some cops and some civilians were able to hold off the xenos by hiding behind cars.

Right, they have great preservation instincts, just like when they didn't charge a long tunnel with machine guns set up at the end and took massive losses before retreating (Aliens) and charged the med lab while taking heavy casualities (Aliens again). When in large numbers xenos simply rush their opponents, and that Kelly and her group didn't get rushed and killed on that bridge (when there was only one person firing) shows that Kelly killed the xenos that got too close, on one clip.

June 16, 2011

Again, Vasquez was able to pin the xeno down with no effort at all after the first 6 shots and blast its head open. The xeno was probably dying, close enough to dead, or actually dead by that point, and she simply kept at it out of rage. Gordon has no combat experience, he freaked and lost his cool during their first encounter with the xenos. He's probably not a good shot either.

In AVPR Kelly kept several xenos away on one clip. That one xeno kept at it after being shot several times doesn't erase away all the other xenos that are killed by short bursts of fire. In the med lab scene the xenos exploded because they are being shot by explosive rounds.

And again, the evacuees and National Guard were able to hold off the xenos by simply bunkering down behind some cars as cover.

No effort? Judging by her face it looked like she was putting a lot of effort but then that might have been rage. Maybe both.

Which xenos that were killed by short bursts of fire? The Nat. Guard scene shows a bunch of soldiers screaming and shooting. The only xenos showed being killed are the ones getting utterly plastered. Kelly seems to get very few positive kills.

That's my point. 5.56mm rounds are less effective against aliens then 10mm armor piercing explosive tipped rounds. Hence, Blackwatch will have a harder time with the xenos then the Colonials did.

Held off =/= killing them in droves.

Even if its less effective (something I don't argue against) it's still not going to be what you were orginally arguing:
In AVP2 the army shot at the aliens and it took almost an entire clip to kill one alien.
It doesn't take almost an entire cilp, it's a burst of fire. Kelly was able to hold off a few xenos with one clip.

I never said it would take a whole clip. Extended bursts are still clearly required to kill them however.

I found this post on spacebattles.com on tank hatches:
"Anyway, it depends on the hatch design (there's a ton), its outer handle, its hinge and its interior lock. We're talking anything from a simple rotating slab of armor for a lock on a 75lb flip up hatch with a highly durable simple hinge, to three stage mechanical locks on a recessed hatch with no external access, to a rotating hatch that locks through a high pressure hydraulic system forcing it down after its locked into place through a steel rod into a slot on a spoke.

And that's just on the Abrams."

So even with the hatch being less armored than the main chassis of a battle tank, I'd still doubt a xeno could do it. Remember in Aliens how the xenos didn't immediately rip doors of their hinges as the marines ran into the vents (right before Vasquez and Gorman are killed)? They had trouble with that flimsy door, why would they be able to do this?

It took time yes. An armored hatch could pose more of a challenge, but based on other examples I don't think it would be impossible.

Well, since you don't have the quote but at least gave a run down of the situation I'll buy it. Still, there's only 2,000 of these things (and I doubt these go far from the hive anyways). Still they can be shot by missiles, grenades, tanks or air support.

Ah yes, but notice that. To be in danger they have to be too close to a building (and that assumes the building isn't cleared, or that buildings are around and left standing) or that the chopper is too close to the ground. It's only vulnerable under those conditions, while xenos are vulnerable to choppers under more conditions (being out in the open, being near windows, being in a building that can be leveled by said chopper, etc)

I don't know the ratio of "Walkers" (what we've been calling evolved infected) to normal ones, so I will drop it. I assume that walkers are the ending stages of all the infected and that there would be more walkers in areas where the outbreak initially started.

Also, why would building clearing not be a combat procedure for Blackwatch? A standard practice for military forces just happens to not be on their training list?

Yeah well the quotes wouldn't really have been helpful. The dialogue in that moment is basically "Hey guys let me in......guys?" followed by "Holy shit!" when it breaks through. I felt a description would be better.

By building clearing I meant structure clearing. Sure they were willing to level the city but at no point did they ever level city blocks in order to get a better firing range.

So you bring up an argument about how some of the civilian population may or may not be a threat to Blackwatch? Alright.

Some of the civilian population may or may not be a threat to the xenos and hamper their assault on Manhattan.

They didn't level buildings because obviously they didn't need to, they were able to bring in armor, air and artillery support where and when they needed it. They also can and will do so, again, they were prepared to level all of Manhattan, you think they won't torch a building? Also, I guess you missed the parts where I told you about the BLACKLIGHT super soldier virus which they created less than 3 weeks after Mercer's initial outbreak, the BLOODTOX which was created around the same time as a cancer to BLACKLIGHT? They have ridiculous knowledge on biological warfare.

Walking into pistol fire =/= walking into machine gun fire. That one xeno lived a while is not evidence that all xenos do so, especially considering Kelly's action on the bridge and that the National Guard, some cops and some civilians were able to hold off the xenos by hiding behind cars.

Right, they have great preservation instincts, just like when they didn't charge a long tunnel with machine guns set up at the end and took massive losses before retreating (Aliens) and charged the med lab while taking heavy casualities (Aliens again). When in large numbers xenos simply rush their opponents, and that Kelly and her group didn't get rushed and killed on that bridge (when there was only one person firing) shows that Kelly killed the xenos that got too close, on one clip.

It really all depends on who organizes it and what type of weapons they have. Mobs with shotguns won't do anything, but a well organized resistance (if actually possible) might pose a problem for a limited time.

What? They faced most of the same threats with Redlight as they would with xenos. Why wouldn't blasting out a firing field help them against Redlight?

I'm aware of the enhanced Blacklight strains, but remember that that research didn't come from scratch. They had decades to study Blacklight. Not so with xenos (presumably).

Indeed. I never said they could though. Based on the Nat. Guard fight and Kelly it's still plainly clear that extended bursts are required to kill them. Also there's no evidence as to how effective the civilian circle was. They may have only been keeping them back as opposed to killing large amounts of them.

Compare a sentry gun to an M4. The sentry was easily equivalent to a .50 cal machine gun. They didn't have a chance to move back and out of the way like they did with the M4. They could survive short bursts from an M4 while the sentry took them apart with a few shots.

June 17, 2011

No effort? Judging by her face it looked like she was putting a lot of effort but then that might have been rage. Maybe both.

Which xenos that were killed by short bursts of fire? The Nat. Guard scene shows a bunch of soldiers screaming and shooting. The only xenos showed being killed are the ones getting utterly plastered. Kelly seems to get very few positive kills.

That's my point. 5.56mm rounds are less effective against aliens then 10mm armor piercing explosive tipped rounds. Hence, Blackwatch will have a harder time with the xenos then the Colonials did.

Held off =/= killing them in droves.

Or again, just rage that the bugs had killed off her entire squad. Also again, Gorman never kept his cool and might have been a bad shot.

The only xeno we see get killed by the National Guard is one scene that shows it getting shot a few times. Kelly gets kills with short bursts of fire, at least 3 xenos, on one clip. They don't take alot.

No, it just means that the Colonial Marines have guns that blow up xenos in overkill of explosive rounds. 9mm weapons are enough to kill em and so are modern assault rifles.

The evacuees and National Guard holding them off shows that they aren't hard to kill. Replace them with Blackwatch soldiers armed with grenade launchers, missile launchers, heavy machine guns and armor support, air support and artillery, and it will equal xenos dying in droves.

1: I never said it would take a whole clip. Extended bursts are still clearly required to kill them however.

2: t took time yes. An armored hatch could pose more of a challenge, but based on other examples I don't think it would be impossible.

3: Yeah well the quotes wouldn't really have been helpful. The dialogue in that moment is basically "Hey guys let me in......guys?" followed by "Holy shit!" when it breaks through. I felt a description would be better.

4: By building clearing I meant structure clearing. Sure they were willing to level the city but at no point did they ever level city blocks in order to get a better firing range.

1: Actually, you know what? Let's say, for the pure argument of it, that it took Vasquez all of 10 rounds to kill the xeno in the air vent. She was using her M4 Pistol, which fires 9mm weapons. Let's assume it's equal to the modern day M9 pistol, which shares both the same ammunition type and magazine size. They both fire 9x19mm parabellum rounds which have the highest possible weight of 9.5 g and are being fired at a speed of 380 m/s, to have a E_kof 685 J x 10 rounds is 6.8 kJ.

Blackwatch's arsenal includes the M4A1 carbine, which fires the 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and are being fired at a speed of 884 m/s, for a E_kof 1.6 kJ of energy each.

That means to kill a xeno just like Vasquez did, a Blackwatch soldier has to spend all of 4 rounds on a xeno.

But hey, let's say she took her entire 15 round magazine to kill it for a total of 10.29 kJ to drop one xeno. If that's the case, then a Blackwatch soldier has to spend an extra 2 bullets, for a total of 6 rounds to kill a xeno. (6.43 actually).

The M4s have 30 round magazines, they could kill 5 to 7 xenos on a single clip. Just like how I argue Kelly was able to on that bridge. Of course, this is using the 9mm weight of 9.5 instead of the lightest 7.45, but whatever, the argument is the same. It's also assuming the xeno required the entire 15 round magazine to kill and not that it was already dying anyways by less rounds.

2: In regards to xenos ripping off hatches, based on what other examples? Preatorians aren't xeno drones/warriors. The doors on LV-426 aren't exactly tank hatches either, and they kept xenos out.

3: Ah, ok. I thought you were referencing the novels and not a comic.

4: Because, just maybe, they didn't need to level buildings to maneuver their armor and air support?

NOTE: Below I cut out some of your comment because they were redundant in this post.

It really all depends on who organizes it and what type of weapons they have. Mobs with shotguns won't do anything, but a well organized resistance (if actually possible) might pose a problem for a limited time.

Right. So these organized mobs could be a problem to the xenos.

(I'm not saying they will, in fact I find the idea of organized mobs of gun owners springing up mid xeno-outbreak having just the right organization and just the right weapons to hamper or even annoy any of the Blackwatch or xeno forces to be ridiculous).

June 17, 2011

Or again, just rage that the bugs had killed off her entire squad. Also again, Gorman never kept his cool and might have been a bad shot.

The only xeno we see get killed by the National Guard is one scene that shows it getting shot a few times. Kelly gets kills with short bursts of fire, at least 3 xenos, on one clip. They don't take alot.

No, it just means that the Colonial Marines have guns that blow up xenos in overkill of explosive rounds. 9mm weapons are enough to kill em and so are modern assault rifles.

The evacuees and National Guard holding them off shows that they aren't hard to kill. Replace them with Blackwatch soldiers armed with grenade launchers, missile launchers, heavy machine guns and armor support, air support and artillery, and it will equal xenos dying in droves.

Even if his hand was extremely shaky there was no way he could miss from that distance.

Never said they weren't. Just that 1: their weapons are less powerful then the ones used by the marines, making your early comparison false 2: They are harder to kill then zombies, significantly reducing their K/D ratio.

It probably will. However grenade launchers, missiles, HMG's, armor support and air assets =/= civilians and Nat. Guardsmen with shotguns and M4's. Xenos will likely die by the thousands, but that's never really been and issue for them.

1: Actually, you know what? Let's say, for the pure argument of it, that it took Vasquez all of 10 rounds to kill the xeno in the air vent. She was using her M4 Pistol, which fires 9mm weapons. Let's assume it's equal to the modern day M9 pistol, which shares both the same ammunition type and magazine size. They both fire 9x19mm parabellum rounds which have the highest possible weight of 9.5 g and are being fired at a speed of 380 m/s, to have a E_kof 685 J x 10 rounds is 6.8 kJ.

Blackwatch's arsenal includes the M4A1 carbine, which fires the 5.56x45mm NATO rounds and are being fired at a speed of 884 m/s, for a E_kof 1.6 kJ of energy each.

That means to kill a xeno just like Vasquez did, a Blackwatch soldier has to spend all of 4 rounds on a xeno.

But hey, let's say she took her entire 15 round magazine to kill it for a total of 10.29 kJ to drop one xeno. If that's the case, then a Blackwatch soldier has to spend an extra 2 bullets, for a total of 6 rounds to kill a xeno. (6.43 actually).

The M4s have 30 round magazines, they could kill 5 to 7 xenos on a single clip. Just like how I argue Kelly was able to on that bridge. Of course, this is using the 9mm weight of 9.5 instead of the lightest 7.45, but whatever, the argument is the same. It's also assuming the xeno required the entire 15 round magazine to kill and not that it was already dying anyways by less rounds.

Actually that's the M3 that uses 9mm rounds. According to your link the M4. uses .45 rounds that can be armor piercing which chances are they had, considering pistol ammo was among the things being confiscated in the terraforming tower. Also remember the location of the bullet wound matters just like it does with any other creature. Vasquez was shooting it in the face at point blank. A bit different then hitting a moving target at a distance. If it is struck in the torso then less damage is going to be sustained.

2: In regards to xenos ripping off hatches, based on what other examples? Preatorians aren't xeno drones/warriors. The doors on LV-426 aren't exactly tank hatches either, and they kept xenos out.

3: Ah, ok. I thought you were referencing the novels and not a comic.

4: Because, just maybe, they didn't need to level buildings to maneuver their armor and air support?

I doubt a xeno could easily rip off a hatch in the casual manner you implied, but based on other feats I have seen and read about such as tearing through a solid concrete wall and bashing a thick metal door (I don't know what material it was) off it's hinges is a pretty solid indicator that a drone could probably bash it's way in through a few inches of reinforced steel. Chances are though it might not be given the time depending on the presence of immediate allies so the acid blood from it's death will more likely do the work for the other aliens.

It would have helped them with Redlight just as much as it would with xenos, and yet they didn't. Do they lack command of the necessary firepower or is it just not part of their doctrine?

Right. So these organized mobs could be a problem to the xenos.
(I'm not saying they will, in fact I find the idea of organized mobs of gun owners springing up mid xeno-outbreak having just the right organization and just the right weapons to hamper or even annoy any of the Blackwatch or xeno forces to be ridiculous).

It is ridiculous, but people do ridiculous things in ridiculous situations. It's unlikely but the possibility remains.

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