Xenomorphs vs. Blackwatch

[Guest Ruinus]

Even if his hand was extremely shaky there was no way he could miss from that distance.

 

Never said they weren't. Just that 1: their weapons are less powerful then the ones used by the marines, making your early comparison false 2: They are harder to kill then zombies, significantly reducing their K/D ratio.

 

It probably will. However grenade launchers, missiles, HMG's, armor support and air assets =/= civilians and Nat. Guardsmen with shotguns and M4's. Xenos will likely die by the thousands, but that's never really been and issue for them.

 

There's also no reason to think he emptied the entire clip into the xeno out of necessity rather than because he was pissing his pants in terror.

 

They are less powerful, but that doesn't mean they can't kill the xenos. A modern day hand gun used by Vasquez could kill a xeno. It carries half the firepower of the rifles Blackwatch uses. That Blackwatch won't shower xenos in explosive rounds from rifles is irrelevant, the movie clearly shows they can die to modern rounds and extrapolation from that (and AvPR) shows the modern rifles will be fine.

 

I don't know why it's not an issue for them. Anyone should realize that if 1,000 xenos die to protect one egg, the xenos are losing, because even if that one egg hatches, the overall xeno force is now 999 individuals weaker.

 

Actually that's the M3 that uses 9mm rounds. According to your link the M4. uses .45 rounds that can be armor piercing which chances are they had, considering pistol ammo was among the things being confiscated in the terraforming tower. Also remember the location of the bullet wound matters just like it does with any other creature. Vasquez was shooting it in the face at point blank. A bit different then hitting a moving target at a distance. If it is struck in the torso then less damage is going to be sustained.

 

Vasquez actually used a privately owned SW model 39, which is a real gun. It uses 9mm, so I don't really know what you are correct up there in your comment.

 

As you say, she shot it straight in the face, and hitting a target at farther distances will do something. So, for the hell of it, say you need to shoot a xeno with twice the punch at range in the torse than Vasquez did. The M4A1 Carbine already does. (pistol = 685 J, carbine = 1.6 kJ)

 

I doubt a xeno could easily rip off a hatch in the casual manner you implied, but based on other feats I have seen and read about such as tearing through a solid concrete wall and bashing a thick metal door (I don't know what material it was) off it's hinges is a pretty solid indicator that a drone could probably bash it's way in through a few inches of reinforced steel. Chances are though it might not be given the time depending on the presence of immediate allies so the acid blood from it's death will more likely do the work for the other aliens.

 

It would have helped them with Redlight just as much as it would with xenos, and yet they didn't. Do they lack command of the necessary firepower or is it just not part of their doctrine?

 

Aliens, Vasquez seals up the thin door before heading into the vents before she dies. The door holds. As to the acid bath killing a tank, sure, but then why would the xenos get there in the first place?

 

Because, obviously (as I've been pointing out) they didn't need to level buildings to bring their support to bear. Their aircraft and armor could deal just fine with the level of buildings in the way.

 

It is ridiculous, but people do ridiculous things in ridiculous situations. It's unlikely but the possibility remains.

 

One plucky woman will kill the entire xeno hive then.

The argument is just as ridiculous and probable (?)

[Guest the atom]

There's also no reason to think he emptied the entire clip into the xeno out of necessity rather than because he was pissing his pants in terror.

 

They are less powerful, but that doesn't mean they can't kill the xenos. A modern day hand gun used by Vasquez could kill a xeno. It carries half the firepower of the rifles Blackwatch uses. That Blackwatch won't shower xenos in explosive rounds from rifles is irrelevant, the movie clearly shows they can die to modern rounds and extrapolation from that (and AvPR) shows the modern rifles will be fine.

 

I don't know why it's not an issue for them. Anyone should realize that if 1,000 xenos die to protect one egg, the xenos are losing, because even if that one egg hatches, the overall xeno force is now 999 individuals weaker.

 

Good point.

 

My point exactly. They will be able to kill plenty of xenos, but it would take more ammo overall then a Redlight zombie, and they wouldn't be able to kill them all as easily as the colonials did.

 

If they lost 100 trying to protect a single egg, then yes it is a loss. If they lost those 1000 taking over a military base or stopping an armor advance, then it's a win.

 

Vasquez actually used a privately owned SW model 39, which is a real gun. It uses 9mm, so I don't really know what you are correct up there in your comment.

 

As you say, she shot it straight in the face, and hitting a target at farther distances will do something. So, for the hell of it, say you need to shoot a xeno with twice the punch at range in the torse than Vasquez did. The M4A1 Carbine already does. (pistol = 685 J, carbine = 1.6 kJ)

 

I always assumed she would be using M4's like the others, but maybe I didn't look closely.

 

Aliens, Vasquez seals up the thin door before heading into the vents before she dies. The door holds. As to the acid bath killing a tank, sure, but then why would the xenos get there in the first place?

 

Because, obviously (as I've been pointing out) they didn't need to level buildings to bring their support to bear. Their aircraft and armor could deal just fine with the level of buildings in the way.

 

I seem to remember that door getting torn down after a few seconds, but maybe I've got my doors wrong lol.

 

Because a xeno moves much faster then a tank turret, and the machine guns can only be pointing in so many directions at once, that's why.

 

Why wouldn't they? It would have given them all the same advantages as it would here, and would prevent the infected from building new hives. They actually had more reason to do it there then they do here.

 

One plucky woman will kill the entire xeno hive then.

The argument is just as ridiculous and probable (?)

 

Well that's really only possible in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy sense.

[Guest Ruinus]

Good point.

 

My point exactly. They will be able to kill plenty of xenos, but it would take more ammo overall then a Redlight zombie, and they wouldn't be able to kill them all as easily as the colonials did.

 

If they lost 100 trying to protect a single egg, then yes it is a loss. If they lost those 1000 taking over a military base or stopping an armor advance, then it's a win.

 

Sure, but only becuase the CM bullets were explosive, so it took maybe 2 or 3 to kill a xeno. Blackwatch soldiers have to use 4-6, which does count as "not able to kill as easily" but doesn't count as "having a hard time killing xenos".

 

Actually, it's a loss either way. Becuase if those 1,000 xenos die assaulting a military base the overall xeno forces are now 1,000 individuals weaker. That means that they must now get 1,000 hosts and successfully hatch a xeno from them just to get back to their original strenght. Except that to get 1,000 hosts they have to go up against Blackwatch again, taking even more losses.

 

I always assumed she would be using M4's like the others, but maybe I didn't look closely.

I seem to remember that door getting torn down after a few seconds, but maybe I've got my doors wrong lol.

 

Because a xeno moves much faster then a tank turret, and the machine guns can only be pointing in so many directions at once, that's why.

 

Why wouldn't they? It would have given them all the same advantages as it would here, and would prevent the infected from building new hives. They actually had more reason to do it there then they do here.

 

I didn't know this either until I looked up her profile on the xeno wikia, were that was mentioned.

 

No, in fact I don't remember any doors being torn down. There are doors all over LV-426 that are bent open enough for maybe one xeno to slide through, but none are torn open. Even the fact that the marines simply close the doors and weld them together is enough reason to assume they aren't that strong, since at no point in the movie did their plan fail (well it did, but only because the xenos used the air ducts and other small hidey-holes to get past the turrets and doors).

 

Xenos don't require tank turrets to shoot at them, they'll just need the mounted machine gun, and that's assuming the tank isn't being screened by infantry or in a fortified position, and that all the areas of Manhattan will always be contested so that the xenos can come from front and back and from the sides instead of Blackwatch controlling an area and fanning out from there.

 

And as I said, they didn't need to start burning down buildings because their armor and air support can reach all the areas just fine.

 

Well that's really only possible in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy sense.

 

Just like this organized resistance that just happens to have the right leadership, combat morale, weaponry, and experience to put an organized fight up against Blackwatch in the middle of a xeno infestation.

[Guest the atom]

Sure, but only becuase the CM bullets were explosive, so it took maybe 2 or 3 to kill a xeno. Blackwatch soldiers have to use 4-6, which does count as "not able to kill as easily" but doesn't count as "having a hard time killing xenos".

 

Actually, it's a loss either way. Becuase if those 1,000 xenos die assaulting a military base the overall xeno forces are now 1,000 individuals weaker. That means that they must now get 1,000 hosts and successfully hatch a xeno from them just to get back to their original strenght. Except that to get 1,000 hosts they have to go up against Blackwatch again, taking even more losses.

 

Also remember that it's only 4-6 bullets if they actually hit the xeno in succession. Considering the speed of the xenos it would be much more. Not quite the same as a lumbering zombie that staggers straight towards you getting turned into swiss cheese.

 

Not really, because now Blackwatch has lost an asset, something that could have killed many more xenos if left. Again, they don't have to go up against Blackwatch. There's over a million running, screaming, perfectly good hosts to pick from.

 

I didn't know this either until I looked up her profile on the xeno wikia, were that was mentioned.

 

No, in fact I don't remember any doors being torn down. There are doors all over LV-426 that are bent open enough for maybe one xeno to slide through, but none are torn open. Even the fact that the marines simply close the doors and weld them together is enough reason to assume they aren't that strong, since at no point in the movie did their plan fail (well it did, but only because the xenos used the air ducts and other small hidey-holes to get past the turrets and doors).

 

Xenos don't require tank turrets to shoot at them, they'll just need the mounted machine gun, and that's assuming the tank isn't being screened by infantry or in a fortified position, and that all the areas of Manhattan will always be contested so that the xenos can come from front and back and from the sides instead of Blackwatch controlling an area and fanning out from there.

 

And as I said, they didn't need to start burning down buildings because their armor and air support can reach all the areas just fine.

 

I'm pretty sure that last door Vasquez welded was being bashed open before she shot the one doing it.

 

That's true, but even so, if a single xeno climbs up on top of a tank, the tank is *vulgarity*ed one way or another. The problem is that sweep and clear tactics don't work that great against xenos. For example, in Aliens and AVP2, the xenos LET their opponents in and then closed the door on their asses. With zombies all you have to do is bang some pots and pans together and they all come running (er staggering. whatever). In the city, a secure advancement would be slow to secure and tough to hold. The area would have to be secured on the streets, the rooftops, and the underground, and be kept that way on all fronts at all times. One breach and your offensive/defensive falls apart like bread in a swimming pool.

 

Just like this organized resistance that just happens to have the right leadership, combat morale, weaponry, and experience to put an organized fight up against Blackwatch in the middle of a xeno infestation.

 

Not saying it does, but problems definitely come up when you are trying to exterminate a civilian population of 1 million while trying to fight hordes of xenomorphs.

[Guest Ruinus]

Also remember that it's only 4-6 bullets if they actually hit the xeno in succession. Considering the speed of the xenos it would be much more. Not quite the same as a lumbering zombie that staggers straight towards you getting turned into swiss cheese.

 

Not really, because now Blackwatch has lost an asset, something that could have killed many more xenos if left. Again, they don't have to go up against Blackwatch. There's over a million running, screaming, perfectly good hosts to pick from.

 

No, but xenos aren't exactly cheetas here either and Blackwatch members aren't terrible shots. And again, Blackwatch has grenades and missiles and artillery, air and armor support.

 

All Blackwatch has to do to replace it's losses is accept more people into it's division (or from Ft. Detrick), and order up more tanks, bases, airplanes, etc and can set up a new base somewhere. Or call up army/marine reserves.

 

Also, there are only hosts if Blackwatch didn't open up the exterimination of xenos with mass carpet bombings or a nuke, what with close to 100,000 unknown biological threats suddenly appearing, I don't know why they wouldn't.

 

I'm pretty sure that last door Vasquez welded was being bashed open before she shot the one doing it.

 

That's true, but even so, if a single xeno climbs up on top of a tank, the tank is *vulgarity*ed one way or another. The problem is that sweep and clear tactics don't work that great against xenos. For example, in Aliens and AVP2, the xenos LET their opponents in and then closed the door on their asses. With zombies all you have to do is bang some pots and pans together and they all come running (er staggering. whatever). In the city, a secure advancement would be slow to secure and tough to hold. The area would have to be secured on the streets, the rooftops, and the underground, and be kept that way on all fronts at all times. One breach and your offensive/defensive falls apart like bread in a swimming pool.

 

I don't think so. We see the door being punched in, but it never fails. Vasquez does shoot before going into the vent, but we don't see at what. She could be shooting through the door for all we know.

 

Yes, but if the xenos are getting on top of tanks something is wrong already. The problem the xenos have is getting to this tank. A problem made worse if the entire of Manhattan island is on fire or a nuclear wasteland. Also again, Blackwatch can set up UAVs and scanners to tell them when xenos are around. Also, I'm not sure one breach will be the end of the entire line as you suggest.

 

BTW, with an area of 59.5 km² and a population of 1,629,054 people, Manhattan's population density is 27,379.06 people per km². The xenos, on the other hand (if they are appearing everywhere at once) will barely have a density of 1,344.538 xenos per km². It's not like Blackwatch is going to be swarmed by thousands of xenos at a time

 

Not saying it does, but problems definitely come up when you are trying to exterminate a civilian population of 1 million while trying to fight hordes of xenomorphs.

 

That's why modern militaries have large area effect weapons that can kill people en masse easily, and nuclear weaponry that can kill millions.

[Guest the atom]

No, but xenos aren't exactly cheetas here either and Blackwatch members aren't terrible shots. And again, Blackwatch has grenades and missiles and artillery, air and armor support.

 

All Blackwatch has to do to replace it's losses is accept more people into it's division (or from Ft. Detrick), and order up more tanks, bases, airplanes, etc and can set up a new base somewhere. Or call up army/marine reserves.

 

Also, there are only hosts if Blackwatch didn't open up the exterimination of xenos with mass carpet bombings or a nuke, what with close to 100,000 unknown biological threats suddenly appearing, I don't know why they wouldn't.

 

If you look at some other source besides the movie's you'll find that they are pretty damn fast. The average drone or warrior can run down any human with ease, and runners are even faster, likely approaching the speed of a gazelle if not a cheetah. Grenades, artillery and air support isn't what's at issue here.

 

And xenos can do the same. Even if Blackwatch starts exterminating civilians there's going to be still more then enough hosts around to quickly replenish their numbers. And it takes longer to recruit more people then it does to impregnate and chest-burst someone.

 

I don't know why they wouldn't either, only they didn't. They had every single excuse to do it with Redlight, with new biological threats emerging by the day.

 

I don't think so. We see the door being punched in, but it never fails. Vasquez does shoot before going into the vent, but we don't see at what. She could be shooting through the door for all we know.

 

Yes, but if the xenos are getting on top of tanks something is wrong already. The problem the xenos have is getting to this tank. A problem made worse if the entire of Manhattan island is on fire or a nuclear wasteland. Also again, Blackwatch can set up UAVs and scanners to tell them when xenos are around. Also, I'm not sure one breach will be the end of the entire line as you suggest.

 

BTW, with an area of 59.5 km² and a population of 1,629,054 people,Manhattan's population density is 27,379.06 people per km². The xenos, on the other hand (if they are appearing everywhere at once) will barely have a density of 1,344.538 xenos per km². It's not like Blackwatch is going to be swarmed by thousands of xenos at a time

 

It was clear that the door wasn't holding. The only reason it didn't break through right away is because Vasquez shot the xeno through it.

 

Plenty of walkers were getting at the tanks, and xenos are about as fast as any walker. If all of Manhattan is on fire or a nuclear wasteland then you won't find the xenos anymore. They will either have dispersed into the water or will have moved on to the rest of New York. Back to the scanners are we? Once again, why would Blackwatch be able to figure out years worth of xenobiology in a few weeks? Motion detectors might work but means shooting every civilain, dog cat, etc, that comes their way. If 900 xenos decide to dogpile a single weak point all at once then the whole line or perimeter is completely compromised. Everybody is suddenly without backup and is totally exposed, and the operation falls flat on it's ass, and then it's back to wherever they started.

 

With that many hosts lying around for the taking, that ratio will change. Quickly. Like almost every other military operation against xenos they probably won't attack all at once, or even right away.

 

That's why modern militaries have large area effect weapons that can kill people en masse easily, and nuclear weaponry that can kill millions.

 

That's assuming they resort to nuclear weapons right off the bat, which they won't. And even if they do, there's nothing keeping the surviving xenos in Manhattan and they move on to greener (read: host-ier) pastures.

[Guest Imperius Rex]

The Xenos wipe out most future military opposition in novels.

 

They should be able to accomplish it here.

[Guest Ruinus]

If you look at some other source besides the movie's you'll find that they are pretty damn fast. The average drone or warrior can run down any human with ease, and runners are even faster, likely approaching the speed of a gazelle if not a cheetah. Grenades, artillery and air support isn't what's at issue here.

 

And xenos can do the same. Even if Blackwatch starts exterminating civilians there's going to be still more then enough hosts around to quickly replenish their numbers. And it takes longer to recruit more people then it does to impregnate and chest-burst someone.

 

I don't know why they wouldn't either, only they didn't. They had every single excuse to do it with Redlight, with new biological threats emerging by the day.

 

Artillery and support can and will be used against them. So even if xenos are fast enough to miss some bullets the shrapnel of grenades and missiles will kill them.

 

Blackwatch can call up marine reserves, in the game they expected to go through with 2,500 casualties a week.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, it won't be necessary.

 

It was clear that the door wasn't holding. The only reason it didn't break through right away is because Vasquez shot the xeno through it.

 

Plenty of walkers were getting at the tanks, and xenos are about as fast as any walker. If all of Manhattan is on fire or a nuclear wasteland then you won't find the xenos anymore. They will either have dispersed into the water or will have moved on to the rest of New York. Back to the scanners are we? Once again, why would Blackwatch be able to figure out years worth of xenobiology in a few weeks? Motion detectors might work but means shooting every civilain, dog cat, etc, that comes their way. If 900 xenos decide to dogpile a single weak point all at once then the whole line or perimeter is completely compromised. Everybody is suddenly without backup and is totally exposed, and the operation falls flat on it's ass, and then it's back to wherever they started.

 

With that many hosts lying around for the taking, that ratio will change. Quickly. Like almost every other military operation against xenos they probably won't attack all at once, or even right away.

 

The door was able to hold for a while at least, and that door is not as armored as a tank hatch.

 

Also, no they won't. I just started realizing how absurdely different the numbers were. Even late in the game when 60% of Manhattan is infected (977,432.4 infected) Blackwatch is still able to hold sections of the city from the virus. Here, the xeno forces of 80,000 (only 4.9%) of the total population. The only way Blackwatch would have more or a problem than they did with BLACKLIGHT was if every xeno was worth 12 infected.

 

Blackwatch would be able to program UAV and scanners to pick up xenos because they have years of experience (49) with biological weapons. Again, 3 weeks after BLACLIGHT is released (a completely new strain of the virus) they build supersoldiers out of it. They'll be able to figure out methods to track xenos.

 

Oh, and how would 900 xenos dogpile one area? What, the area is just controlled by soldiers? No tanks? No air support? No artillery support?

 

How many xenos actually take hostages instead of outright killing potential hosts? Also the xenos are attacking all at once. They either attack all at once and get smeared by heavy fire support from Blackwatch or they attack in small groups, giving Blackwatch more time to learn about them, fortify the area and evacuate people.

 

That's assuming they resort to nuclear weapons right off the bat, which they won't. And even if they do, there's nothing keeping the surviving xenos in Manhattan and they move on to greener (read: host-ier) pastures.

 

And again, Blackwatch won't have underground escape areas sealed off why? There's no mention of it in Prototype, but the assumption is still there. Greene and the rest of the infected could have escaped using subways, sewer systems, etc. Yet at no point is there any indication the infection has gone beyond Manhattan island. ie the underground areas are sealed off.