Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Castle served 4 years in Nam as a basic soldier. After the war, he trained others and became black ops. His H2H skills are sub par compared to most comic fighters. Also his immense training is good but when it actually comes to skill, Batman has him surpassed in stealth, all physical attributes, intellect, and fighting experience. The only experience Castle has over Batman is full frontal war. Batman has been proven as a master strategist and has manipulated the entire gang scene against itself and had it all planned from the beginnig. Batman is proven superior to Castle in all ways. Matter of fact, Jason Todd is Punisher's equal and Batman made him look like a fool when they fought fo real. Castle wasn't just basic infantry. Read the comics, not some stupid wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lunacyde Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from this is major fanboyism and a complete lack of knowledge about military history and what goes into making a good soldier. When it comes down to it the reason the NVA was able to hold out so long against the United States was not just numbers. It had to do with their cut and dry brutality, their ability to dig in like a tick, their knowledge of the terrain and the viciousness to do whatever it took to win the battle. They might not have been as "well trained" as the opposition, but that does not mean they weren't great fighters. In fact, they were some of the most tenacious ones that the world has ever seen. Despite their quality of arms (outside of the almighty AK-47), despite their inferiority in the area of a battlefield supplies and despite their whatsoever lack of any advantage in above the tree line they were able to win the war. Hell of a lot more impressive then Batman's usual list of no name canon fodder aren't they? And Frank Castle isn't some military tough guy, he is *the* military tough guy. He was black ops during Nam, trained through multiple branches of the military to go where he shouldn't be (Cambodia for example) and do things that would never see the light of day. Aka, he was already well beyond the combat abilities of just about 99% of the people Batman comes across day to day before he even painted a white skull on his chest. Again, all he had to his name was standard military equipment and nobody with super powers waiting to jump in when he was in trouble. Of course really we're just getting started. After his service in Vietnam and up until the time his family was killed in the crossfire of mafia fire, Castle was a special forces instructor back in the states. Then came central park and now we go to the next thirty or so years of doing the same damn thing Batman does but with a lack of a mercy and a complete lack of outside funding, a network of chums, friends in higher places.. really imagine that I'm talking about a videogame. Batman is easy mode and Punisher is throw your controller through a T.V screen hard. And as far as martial arts ability, Castle is a highly skilled mixed martial artist and street fighting. In fact, he's damn near *lethal* and has proven himself on the level of a number of Marvel's best. He trains constantly and takes numerous "vacations" in northern New York to make sure he doesn't get fatigued and that he can work on the important stuff his war on crime is not improving him in. The man is a machine and the fact that he's able to do this at over sixty is a testament to just how damn *good* he is. If anything it paints him as *the* most overall skilled individual in Marvel Comics and it places him firmly on the same level as the Dark Knight himself. You certainly know how to debate and make a point, I'll give you that Skaar. This is well-written and well thought out. However it does foray into biased territory, thought it certainly stops short of outright fanboyism. Fact is although Frank is a damn tough S.O.B. and highly skilled in multiple areas, he is not *the* most skilled individual in Marvel Comics, or DC for that matter. He's lost to numerous opponents in H2H, though he rarely engages in pure matches of H2H combat. Daredevil, Deadpool, Captain America, Daken, Deathlok and Kingpin among others have all defeated him. heck, Frank has a hard time with Moon Knight. Furthermore you aren't even taking into effect other skill sets. Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth. Frank has the edge in demolitions, weapons expertise, and marksmanship. You mention a constant training regimen as if Batman hasn't been one of the best trained and hardest working humans in comics for decades. You mention it as if Batman hasn't reached the peak of human fitness and stayed there over decades of service through nothing more than hard work and discipline. If you really want to make comparisons in "ease" how about the fact that Batman refuses to use lethal force. Do you realize how much easier his life would be if he just shot every criminal in the head that he came across? Using smoke grenades and batarangs to subdue opponents, while making sure you don't seriously injure them is much more difficult then going in and capping or blowing up every poor sucker you come across. Batman has more discipline in that he follows a strict code and he will not break that code. You act as if Batman couldn't be "lethal" if he wanted to. The point is that he CHOOSES not to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 You certainly know how to debate and make a point, I'll give you that Skaar. This is well-written and well thought out. However it does foray into biased territory, thought it certainly stops short of outright fanboyism. Fact is although Frank is a damn tough S.O.B. and highly skilled in multiple areas, he is not *the* most skilled individual in Marvel Comics, or DC for that matter. He's lost to numerous opponents in H2H, though he rarely engages in pure matches of H2H combat. Daredevil, Deadpool, Captain America, Daken, Deathlok and Kingpin among others have all defeated him. heck, Frank has a hard time with Moon Knight. The same can be said for Batman. Heck, in the majority of fights with super powered enemies he needs to have a certain edge with his gadgets. Also, there have been a number of occasions where Frank has taken on and even defeated characters like Wolverine and Daredevil up close and personal.. and even won by using the environment to his advantage. Also, as far as a skill set goes Castle is pretty much near the top for Marvel. He's able to engage in close quarters combat as well as any of the non powered individuals in Marvel combats. Also, when I say close quarters combat I mean actually out and out melee, I don't mean just basic hand to hand. Castle isn't as superb a martial artist as Batman by *any* means, but his innate ability to use the environment around him and his skill in the use of close quarter weaponry elevate his ability as a fighter into Batman's territory. Furthermore you aren't even taking into effect other skill sets. Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth. Frank has the edge in demolitions, weapons expertise, and marksmanship. I never said he wasn't. The prior posts whole goal was not to paint a picture of Castle as being *better* then Batman. It was to explain why he's on Bruce's level and not far below it. You mention a constant training regimen as if Batman hasn't been one of the best trained and hardest working humans in comics for decades. You mention it as if Batman hasn't reached the peak of human fitness and stayed there over decades of service through nothing more than hard work and discipline. I never meant it in that manner. What I'm saying is that Castle has done the same sort of thing through out his life. Again, I'm not trying to argue that Castle is *better* then Batman. I'm trying to make a point that they are on equal footing. If you really want to make comparisons in "ease" how about the fact that Batman refuses to use lethal force. Do you realize how much easier his life would be if he just shot every criminal in the head that he came across? Using smoke grenades and batarangs to subdue opponents, while making sure you don't seriously injure them is much more difficult then going in and capping or blowing up every poor sucker you come across. Batman has more discipline in that he follows a strict code and he will not break that code. You act as if Batman couldn't be "lethal" if he wanted to. The point is that he CHOOSES not to kill. I'm going to have to accept responsibility for this. You're right, I really wasn't thinking straight at all when I said that. It is easier to use gunfire to solve your problems then it is to use the items that Batman is armed with. However, I'm still going to maintain my position that they are still balanced by the fact that Bruce has much more at his disposal to work with then Castle. They're very similar in multiple aspects, outside of different backgrounds and their manner of dealing with crime. As far as bias goes I'm actually quite fond of both Bruce and Frank. Anyway, thank you for giving me a wonderful counter argument. P.S, I also saw the work you posted on FPL and it's given me another reason to wish I had the time for that portion of the Electric Ferret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lunacyde Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It seems we agree more than we initially thought. Perhaps I was a little rash with a few of my accusations and points as well. I too enjoy both characters, though I prefer Bruce slightly. I agree that Frank is on equal footing considering his weaponry and use of environment. In order to save myself a lot of pointless typing I'm going to agree on all points. This debate was certainly better than most I've been in here. Thanks for the compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It seems we agree more than we initially thought. Perhaps I was a little rash with a few of my accusations and points as well. I too enjoy both characters, though I prefer Bruce slightly. I agree that Frank is on equal footing considering his weaponry and use of environment. In order to save myself a lot of pointless typing I'm going to agree on all points. This debate was certainly better than most I've been in here. Thanks for the compliment. Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about. Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SSGoku Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth.I really don't see how any of these can help him if he doesn't have prep. Maybe stealth might help, but none of the others. That said, I still stand by what I have previously said, which is Batman and Todd winning, but just barely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I really don't see how any of these can help him if he doesn't have prep. Maybe stealth might help, but none of the others. That said, I still stand by what I have previously said, which is Batman and Todd winning, but just barely. You can think tactically on the go, it just requires (1) intelligence, (2) experience and (3) being able to remain calm and focused in an intense situation. Batman easily has all three in the bag. It's one of the reasons that people like him and Frank are able to keep up with some of the people they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hayesmeister5651 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about. Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell.Well do you think Frank and Todd can co-exsist? I could see Frank killing Todd due to his mental instability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lunacyde Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about. Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell. It's an interesting prospect. Not sure if Frank would team up with him looking at him as a like-minded man with similar tactics, or if he'd see him as a criminal himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SSGoku Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It's an interesting prospect. Not sure if Frank would team up with him looking at him as a like-minded man with similar tactics, or if he'd see him as a criminal himself.If Punisher does see him as just another criminal, then I would if immediately lost all respect for the character. He's just like Jason, so he'd be a HUGE hypocrite to do that. But, I really don't think he would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imperius Rex Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Batman and Jason Todd have more than enough skills to win this engagement and achieve it without too much trouble. In case people forgot, they were partners for years before Jason died. So they know how to work well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Batman and Jason Todd have more than enough skills to win this engagement and achieve it without too much trouble. In case people forgot, they were partners for years before Jason died. So they know how to work well together. Todd's method of operation is very different from when he was Robin. It was one of the main reasons that Batman was so unwilling to accept his identity at first. They're a lot less alike now then Fury & Castle. Plus, as Lunacyde and I discussed earlier, Castle's right up there with Batman on base skill level. This fight is really too close to call, though if I had to choose I think that I'd go with team 2 since Fury isn't really up to par when it comes to actual front line experience these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xman4life Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Todd's method of operation is very different from when he was Robin. It was one of the main reasons that Batman was so unwilling to accept his identity at first. They're a lot less alike now then Fury & Castle. Plus, as Lunacyde and I discussed earlier, Castle's right up there with Batman on base skill level. This fight is really too close to call, though if I had to choose I think that I'd go with team 2 since Fury isn't really up to par when it comes to actual front line experience these days.I agree as well. I just hate to hear people waive off frank like he is a guy with a gun. For christ sake the guy killed more than half of the people hood sent after him and they ALL had super powers and if it wasn't for that healing ability Daken would have been dead as hell,because for anybody who DIDN'T read that comic Punisher was beating Dakens ass in the sewer and then blew him up. Frank needs more respect than that same goes for Nick fury(worlds greatest spy) you get that title for a reason. I would love to see Punisher as the new man without fear. Oh and side note just because batman knows over 127 different types of martial arts doesn't necessarily mean he is a better fighter. I remember wonder woman humiliating batman during a altercation. Knowing how to fight is knowing how to fight point blank which means all of those fancy kicks you see in kung fu doesn't work in REAL life and that goes for comics as well. You make what works for you work for you. you can block a kick or duck a kick, either way if the kick doesn't hit you thats the point. So who's to say Batman would beat the hell out of punisher especially when this man has years upon years fighting experience himself against all sorts of enemies. To sum it up MMA shows exactly what I'm trying to say. Anderson silva is a champion but does that mean if he fought someone like mike tyson in his prime or lennox lewis in his prime he would win just because he knows multiple styles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I agree as well. I just hate to hear people waive off frank like he is a guy with a gun. For christ sake the guy killed more than half of the people hood sent after him and they ALL had super powers and if it wasn't for that healing ability Daken would have been dead as hell,because for anybody who DIDN'T read that comic Punisher was beating Dakens ass in the sewer and then blew him up. Frank needs more respect than that same goes for Nick fury(worlds greatest spy) you get that title for a reason. I would love to see Punisher as the new man without fear. Oh and side note just because batman knows over 127 different types of martial arts doesn't necessarily mean he is a better fighter. I remember wonder woman humiliating batman during a altercation. Knowing how to fight is knowing how to fight point blank which means all of those fancy kicks you see in kung fu doesn't work in REAL life and that goes for comics as well. You make what works for you work for you. you can block a kick or duck a kick, either way if the kick doesn't hit you thats the point. So who's to say Batman would beat the hell out of punisher especially when this man has years upon years fighting experience himself against all sorts of enemies. To sum it up MMA shows exactly what I'm trying to say. Anderson silva is a champion but does that mean if he fought someone like mike tyson in his prime or lennox lewis in his prime he would win just because he knows multiple styles? He'd certainly make a better one then Black Panther (the guy's married to a demigod, he's afraid for his life at one point every month). As far as the Anderson Silva bit, I'd put him over Tyson seeing that Anderson is a champion mixed martial artist, giving him more versatility then Tyson in the ring. I can't recall who Lennox Lewis is, however the name does sound familiar. Also, there's no way for a human being to have specific knowledge of, or know over 127 martial art styles and until somebody gives me actual proof (IN COMIC PANEL FORM!!! NO WIKI FOR SCAR!!!) then I refuse to accept that Batman is a part of that master of every martial art bullshit. I know that this is comics, but for shit sakes writers common sense dictates that it's impossible for anyone to be a master of that many forms of anything and still constitute as human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SSGoku Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 He'd certainly make a better one then Black Panther (the guy's married to a demigod, he's afraid for his life at one point every month). As far as the Anderson Silva bit, I'd put him over Tyson seeing that Anderson is a champion mixed martial artist, giving him more versatility then Tyson in the ring. I can't recall who Lennox Lewis is, however the name does sound familiar. Also, there's no way for a human being to have specific knowledge of, or know over 127 martial art styles and until somebody gives me actual proof (IN COMIC PANEL FORM!!! NO WIKI FOR SCAR!!!) then I refuse to accept that Batman is a part of that master of every martial art bullshit. I know that this is comics, but for shit sakes writers common sense dictates that it's impossible for anyone to be a master of that many forms of anything and still constitute as human.Thats the point. Batman isn't human, DC has never openly said this, but they've been hinting at it ever since Batman batkicked The Spectre. The truth is, Batman does indeed have powers. Reality warping powers to be exact, on a level equell or greater to The Presence. So, if Batman wants to know 127 martial art styles, he can just bend reality so that its possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xman4life Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 He'd certainly make a better one then Black Panther (the guy's married to a demigod, he's afraid for his life at one point every month). Exactly. punisher is way more believable as the man without fear As far as the Anderson Silva bit, I'd put him over Tyson seeing that Anderson is a champion mixed martial artist, giving him more versatility then Tyson in the ring. I can't recall who Lennox Lewis is, however the name does sound familiar.Lennox Lewis beat Evander holyfield to become champion back in 2002(I think) but he was undefeated and the ones he DID lose he won in rematches.Also, there's no way for a human being to have specific knowledge of, or know over 127 martial art styles and until somebody gives me actual proof (IN COMIC PANEL FORM!!! NO WIKI FOR SCAR!!!) then I refuse to accept that Batman is a part of that master of every martial art bullshit. I know that this is comics, but for shit sakes writers common sense dictates that it's impossible for anyone to be a master of that many forms of anything and still constitute as human.Now again I have seen batman beat SOLOMON GRUNDY!!!!!! through pressure points but wonder woman tossed batman aside like nothing and even Batman said she was the best melee fighter he has seen. and that is exactly what Frank is a melee fighter(he fights dirty, uses the environment, and does cheap shots) he is not above letting batman get in close and kicking him in the nuts and slitting his throat. or playing possum and shooting him in the head. Frank doesn't have to have the "BAT KICK" he can take a beating, bite your nose off, throw sand in your eyes and beat you to death with a book. It's not as pretty as nightwing swooping in with a ninja kick but it works just as fine. I say frank can hang with batman hand to hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xman4life Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thats the point. Batman isn't human, DC has never openly said this, but they've been hinting at it ever since Batman batkicked The Spectre. The truth is, Batman does indeed have powers. Reality warping powers to be exact, on a level equell or greater to The Presence. So, if Batman wants to know 127 martial art styles, he can just bend reality so that its possible.LMAO Batman only lives through mercy and ULTRA luck. First time he fought Lady Shiva she could have killed him but she CHOSE not to. Same with bronze Tiger. Wonder woman could have ripped him in half when they had an altercation, same with green lantern, and almost EVERY villain he came across outside of gotham except for al ghul, bane, and hush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SSGoku Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Now again I have seen batman beat SOLOMON GRUNDY!!!!!! through pressure points but wonder woman tossed batman aside like nothing and even Batman said she was the best melee fighter he has seen. and that is exactly what Frank is a melee fighter(he fights dirty, uses the environment, and does cheap shots) he is not above letting batman get in close and kicking him in the nuts and slitting his throat. or playing possum and shooting him in the head. Frank doesn't have to have the "BAT KICK" he can take a beating, bite your nose off, throw sand in your eyes and beat you to death with a book. It's not as pretty as nightwing swooping in with a ninja kick but it works just as fine. I say frank can hang with batman hand to hand.Now I can't get the image of Punisher biting Batmans nose off out of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boratz Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Nick Fury and the Punisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thanosisawesome Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Now again I have seen batman beat SOLOMON GRUNDY!!!!!! through pressure points but wonder woman tossed batman aside like nothing and even Batman said she was the best melee fighter he has seen. and that is exactly what Frank is a melee fighter(he fights dirty, uses the environment, and does cheap shots) he is not above letting batman get in close and kicking him in the nuts and slitting his throat. or playing possum and shooting him in the head. Frank doesn't have to have the "BAT KICK" he can take a beating, bite your nose off, throw sand in your eyes and beat you to death with a book. It's not as pretty as nightwing swooping in with a ninja kick but it works just as fine. I say frank can hang with batman hand to hand. If by hang with you mean Batman beats him so badly that Punisher is rushed to ER, then yes. Punisher has nothing that can hurt Bats. Punisher would be lucky to land a signal blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thanosisawesome Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Nick Fury and the Punisher Lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SSGoku Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If by hang with you mean Batman beats him so badly that Punisher is rushed to ER, then yes. Punisher has nothing that can hurt Bats. Punisher would be lucky to land a signal blow.I'm sorry, but so far you've submitted nothing to this debate other then opinion and blind fanboyism. If you think Batman wins thats fine, just state why, with facts, not with opinion. All you keep doing is stating how much more skilled Batman is then Punisher and Fury, umm, ok...anything else to add, or is that your complete argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Falcon Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Todd and Bruce win becuase Punisher and Fury have not the skill or experience to win in a 2 on 2 fight against a team as skilled as these two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest xman4life Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Todd and Bruce win becuase Punisher and Fury have not the skill or experience to win in a 2 on 2 fight against a team as skilled as these two.More skill YES more experience NO. Team one together is over 160 years old with TONS of wartime, special ops experience.. team two together is 60 PUSHING it. Why do you keep saying that when punisher feats are so stacked it's not funny same as nick fury. You really must look down on them. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 More skill YES more experience NO. Team one together is over 160 years old with TONS of wartime, special ops experience.. team two together is 60 PUSHING it. Why do you keep saying that when punisher feats are so stacked it's not funny same as nick fury. You really must look down on them. lol The majority of Fury and Punisher's experience is WARTIME experience. Mass battles, or in a lot of Punisher's experience, 1 vs. large groups. That kind of experience is next to useless in a 1on1 fight, which is essentially what this match-up is. Hence, Batman and Jason Todd has the experience advantage in this fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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