Goku and Vegeta VS Batman and Captain America

[Guest sirmethos]

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.

 

 

Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

 

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).

[Guest bigballerju]

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.

 

 

Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

 

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).

 

Exactly. Z Fighters aren't trained Martial Artists like Cassadra Cain, Batman, Steve Roger, Daredevil, Ryu, Elektra, and more. There training only relies on getting more powerful and learning different techniques.

 

Thats not to say Z Fighters aren't excellent fighters because they are. However most of there training and skills needs KI. Without it there far below Batman and Cap's levels.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

I disagree. Tien potentially, given enough time, could train enough to beat Gohan as he was during the end of DBZ when he gave up fighting.

 

As for training not improving potential...are you joking? All the Z Fighters, way below Raditz when he first arrives. A year later, almost all of them are strong enough to kill Raditz with ease. Then King Kai's training.

 

Oh and the 3 years training before the Android Saga: Vegeta was able to train enough to reach Super Saiyan.

 

 

Tien can have a million years of training, he will never beat Gohan up. Vegeta reached SSJ, because his potential was always high. Tien's wasn't and no matter what all he could even do was hold Cell down and deflect a Buu Shot.

[C.T.]

Heh. That's so wrong. He had what...30 years or so of training? In that time he went from like a power level of 300 or so to powerful enough to hold down Cell and deflect a Buu shot, showing how powerful he is. That's from 30 years of training or however long. A million years? Yeah he owns Gohan.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.

 

 

Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

 

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).

 

 

How is this being taken seriously. All Master Roshi trained Goku is was to get stronger and faster? That comes with the training like working out. Try being a fighter and not get faster or stronger.

 

I think you guys should not comment on Martial Arts until you know the difference. What has Batman done that Goku hasn;'t when it comes to training. You think Batman doing a back flip and then doing the splits in the air is more Martial Arts?

 

I am sorry but there is no look to martial arts, its a way of fighting/ living life. GOku is the epitomy of martial arts. Just like Bruce Lee was in his time.

 

 

The thing is, you and the other dude, think flashy is martial arts? Liek How is Shiva trained better? What does she do that others don't?

 

Roshi trains goku to become a better fighter, with that it means to be the best right? So if you are so strong and fast, that when you add the skills and gracefulness of a martial art, you will effectively be that much better. Which is why Goku is always improving.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Heh. That's so wrong. He had what...30 years or so of training? In that time he went from like a power level of 300 or so to powerful enough to hold down Cell and deflect a Buu shot, showing how powerful he is. That's from 30 years of training or however long. A million years? Yeah he owns Gohan.

 

 

I agree he improved, but he did not become more powerful than he can exceed. Lets just say that Tien has a potential of 1000 (not power levels just a random number) and he trains, he will get closer to that number, but he will never go higher than 1000

 

 

Goku and Gohan are able to exceed that, through their blood, so no Tien cannot keep getting more powerful, but will reach max power and training can keep him at max power for longer as he gets older

[C.T.]

How exactly do you figure that? Was it part of the manga or something I missed? Because it sounds like a bunch of BS to me. DBZ is all about people transcending their limits in big fights.

[Guest sirmethos]

How is this being taken seriously. All Master Roshi trained Goku is was to get stronger and faster? That comes with the training like working out. Try being a fighter and not get faster or stronger.

 

I think you guys should not comment on Martial Arts until you know the difference. What has Batman done that Goku hasn;'t when it comes to training. You think Batman doing a back flip and then doing the splits in the air is more Martial Arts?

 

I am sorry but there is no look to martial arts, its a way of fighting/ living life. GOku is the epitomy of martial arts. Just like Bruce Lee was in his time.

 

 

The thing is, you and the other dude, think flashy is martial arts? Liek How is Shiva trained better What does she do that others don't?

 

Roshi trains goku to become a better fighter, with that it means to be the best right? So if you are so strong and fast, that when you add the skills and gracfulness of a martial art, you will effectively be that much better. Which is why Goku is always improving.

 

No, you don't get it.

 

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

 

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.

 

 

The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

No, you don't get it.

 

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

 

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.

 

 

The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

Then where did they learn their martial arts from? They are not street fighters clearly.

[Guest sirmethos]

Then where did they learn their martial arts from? They are not street fighters clearly.

 

Goku already had his fighting style at the beginning of DB, that he had learned from his grandfather. And Krillin came from a monastery where he likely learned his fighting style.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

No, you don't get it.

 

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

 

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.

 

 

The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

I do get it, what you do not get is that there are multiple ways of learning martial arts. Goku was trained to become stronger and faster yes, but to limit his training to that makes no sense. Clearly you do not see everyday training, but there was lessons given on how to punch, kick, etc.. Since DBZ is so far ahead of DC when it comes to martial arts, they focused on more important things like actual power, you know to get better, but you are saying all they learned was to run and become stronger. Show me where Batman has trained different? He lifts weights, does cardio, practices technique, which is not different. I think you think tat Goku would need to have a black belt on and have the whole cliché of the kung fu master and student training. If you are referring to Goku always powering up and then whooping some ass, yes a physical boost will help, but that doesn't mean they have no skill nor didn't learn any.

 

I doubt Batman shows every aspect of Bats training, I am sure they imply that he learned a lot of it. Or else DC would have a million pages of every single fighting lesson he had.

 

Batman is a great fighter, Goku is too, you noticed that I am not saying Batman is weaker in skill, just that you really think you can take all of Goku's abilities away in this site? Pretty soon you will say Robin is a better fighter than Goku, and then DBZ will be weaker than the Power Rangers.

[Guest sirmethos]

I do get it, what you do not get is that there are multiple ways of learning martial arts. Goku was trained to become stronger and faster yes, but to limit his training to that makes no sense. Clearly you do not see everyday training, but there was lessons given on how to punch, kick, etc.. Since DBZ is so far ahead of DC when it comes to martial arts, they focused on more important things like actual power, you know to get better, but you are saying all they learned was to run and become stronger. Show me where Batman has trained different? He lifts weights, does cardio, practices technique, which is not different. I think you think tat Goku would need to have a black belt on and have the whole cliché of the kung fu master and student training. If you are referring to Goku always powering up and then whooping some ass, yes a physical boost will help, but that doesn't mean they have no skill nor didn't learn any.

 

I doubt Batman shows every aspect of Bats training, I am sure they imply that he learned a lot of it. Or else DC would have a million pages of every single fighting lesson he had.

 

Batman is a great fighter, Goku is too, you noticed that I am not saying Batman is weaker in skill, just that you really think you can take all of Goku's abilities away in this site? Pretty soon you will say Robin is a better fighter than Goku, and then DBZ will be weaker than the Power Rangers.

 

 

Again, Roshi directly said that he wouldn't be teaching them(goku and krillin) any moves, that they would have to figure out how to use their increased power themselves.

 

They did NOT learn how to fight from Roshi, and the same goes for Popo and King Kai.

 

The only actual Combat Training that Goku has received, he got from his grandfather, and from through experience from sparring/fighting.

[Guest xman4life]

Again, Roshi directly said that he wouldn't be teaching them(goku and krillin) any moves, that they would have to figure out how to use their increased power themselves.

 

They did NOT learn how to fight from Roshi, and the same goes for Popo and King Kai.

 

The only actual Combat Training that Goku has received, he got from his grandfather, and from through experience from sparring/fighting.

Wow now that I think about it he really didn't learn any Martial arts as far as styles or anything. He was just trained like a boxer is trained. Hard labor, running and push ups, Master Roshi didn't teach him a single kick or punch. Just how to use Ki. Honestly just sit back and think about it.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Wow now that I think about it he really didn't learn any Martial arts as far as styles or anything. He was just trained like a boxer is trained. Hard labor, running and push ups, Master Roshi didn't teach him a single kick or punch. Just how to use Ki. Honestly just sit back and think about it.

 

 

yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.

[Guest sirmethos]

yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.

 

Tell you what. If you can show me a scan/screenshot from the manga where it is either directly shown that he learns martial arts, or where it is directly Said that he learns martial arts, then I'll concede.

 

Of course, Since I just spent an hour or so, looking through all the manga again, I can tell you right now that there are no such things.

 

 

I'll repeat, Goku was never formally trained in any form of martial arts. The most he learned was a few Ki techniques(kamehameha, kaio-ken, instant transmission, ki-sensing, etc.)

 

That is why, with Goku and Vegeta being stripped of their Ki, and fighting against Batman and Captain America, Goku and Vegeta lose fairly quickly.

 

 

Combat in DBZ, relies on Ki and Ki techniques. Batman and Cap's skills does not.

[Guest xman4life]

yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.

Well to be quite honest. Having that type of speed and strength would make anyone good. Need an example? Spiderman. He said himself he isn't a good fighter but he is very fast, strong and agile so he can hang wiht almost anyone. Again he WAS taught martial arts but by his "grand father" and Master Roshi and King Kai taught him to to become FASTER and STRONGER.

[Guest sirmethos]

Spider-Man is actually a brilliant example, of someone who has had no formal training, but is still a brilliant fighter.

 

Spider-man has created his own fighting style, that makes use of his special abilities, taking advantage of his high speed and agility.

 

If you took away Spider-Man's powers, he would be pretty much helpless in a fight, but as long as he has his powers, he is an extremely good close combat fighter.

[Guest xman4life]

Spider-Man is actually a brilliant example, of someone who has had no formal training, but is still a brilliant fighter.

 

Spider-man has created his own fighting style, that makes use of his special abilities, taking advantage of his high speed and agility.

 

If you took away Spider-Man's powers, he would be pretty much helpless in a fight, but as long as he has his powers, he is an extremely good close combat fighter.

Thank you.

[Guest Ivan]

Just to hammer home the point, please look at Tao Pai Pai. He was an insanely skilled Martial Artist (he killed Blue Shogun with only his tongue, just to show off,) and he initially beat Goku. Goku climbed a tower and drank some fake magic water, and that additionaly strength training made him *powerful* enough to be able to defeat Tao Pai Pai. If climbing ladders made you a better martial artist, there would be more firemen on the MMA circuit. It was the additional ki strength that let him win. This is a conceit of the DBZ universe- everyone has Ki. Videl is probably a more skilled martial artist than most of the Z fighters, simply because she was able to make it into the tournament finals without mastering her ki (it almost cost her her life.)

 

Goku blocks kicks with a single outstretched forearm. That is not a martial arts technique, that is a superpower. This is why people are saying Batman and Cap win so easily. Goku and Vegeta are *used* to having insane amounts of ki flowing through their bodies. Goku blocks Trunks' sword with his finger... there's no martial arts skill involved in doing that. There's a large amount of ki control, which is certainly a skill Goku has in abundance, but this particular fight is sans ki.

 

That's the crux of what sirmethos is saying. Superpowers and skills are separate things. Thor has Superpowers. Batman has skills. Iron Fist has both. Goku and Vegeta are not particularly skilled *martial artists.* They have superpowers, which they are skilled at using. Take away those superpowers, and they're left with techniques that don't translate well to frail human bodies.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

I get your point guys, really I do, and while you are partially correct I disagree in the fact that without ki, Goku would be less skilled than Batman.

 

Lets really look at this guys

 

Batman is a master of several (under-statement) styles of fighting, he is peak human, whatever that means (I can discuss later on this) so he too relies on his physical prowess to execute his "moves" Batman was taught by other people and has used his own combination

 

Goku has trained to fight(unarmed combat, whatever you like to call it, since martial arts is not a style, but a way of life, more specifically a way to fight) since a kid, yes he gained the use of ki, which was strengthen by training to fight, to gain stamina and strength, which brings speed. He uses his ki, to further enhance those attributes to further gain the advantage to dispose of his enemy. Simple tactic, take away his ki and he still has his training, his own natural skills and his experience. So if you mean that if Goku had his training taken away and so did Batman would Batman win, yes, Goku was a weak kid and probably would be strong, and do ok, but Batman would probably beat him. No ki, means Goku can still do what peak humans can do, since he did still train to have great agility and learn to move in such a manner. Like having different stances, react to others moves, etc.. Sure he has powers, but that would put him on skiils and powers, like Iron-Fist.

If you want to get nip picky Batman was more formally trained, but Goku received harder training, like swimming an ocean, climbing a huge ladder that was who knows how long, as a kid, and yes you would get stronger doing that, try doing a rope climb before you say anything, and look at the training most martial artists (not movie ones or comic book ones )do and you will see who is not only more realistic(in at least the methods you train, remember there are times when skill meets physical abiities)but also gives you more gains towards your ultimate goal, to become a better fighter.

 

again I get what you all are saying and I am not trying to sound bias

[Helen C]

Thing is, his strength due to his climbing and such won't help him here as it has been removed. When does he learn anything he can do with a human body? Does he learn throws? Does he learn moves that don't require super human durability and strength? If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

 

Look at the issue of Vegita's jealously, for instance. He spends his time complaining about not being as strong as Goku, and about how he will become stronger. He trains by honing his physical strength in high gravity. He doesn't practice by honing his skills, nor does he ever complain about not being as skilled as Goku.

 

Meanwhile Batman uses martial skills every time he fights. We see him using pressure points techniques for example. We know he teaches others these skills too, people like Kyle Rayner an Superman are half decent martial artists in their own rights because of him.

[Guest victim36]

I'm not here to argue who would win this fight. All fighters on the same power scale, I think it would be a wash. Goku might pull it out just because of his impressive damage soak.

 

However, to say that DBZ characters aren't trained martial artist is just wrong. Martial arts is the back bone for all of their combat scenes. Goku has trained with Grandpa Gohan, Kami's tower, not to mention all of the sparring sessions with the other Z fighters.

 

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Martial_Arts

 

During fights you see vicious amounts of kicks, punches, blocks, knees, elbows, throws, counters strikes. All aspects and techniques used by Batman and Captain America.

 

Now their Ki does make them faster, stronger, and able to fight in ways normal people can't (like upside down while flying). They love to use their ki for huge blast, and flashy explosions, but when the power levels are close it comes down to the better trained fighter.

 

Goku vs. Vegeta's 1st fight. The first half was almost all H2H combat, until Goku got the upperhand and Vegeta tried to destroy the planet.

Piccolo vs. Frieza. Piccolo was weaker than Frieza, but due to Nail's experience Piccolo was able to counter and push Frieza back in H2H.

Goku vs. Cell Clones. Goku uses H2H to beat back 6 clones, taking few shots.

 

Does their Ki play an important part in their combative styles? Yes! There is no question that they way they fight is largely influenced by their ability to fly, shoot Ki blasts, short range teleport, etc. However, when the power levels are close, or when they can't afford a to lock up blasts, they have all proven to be incredibly capable in a fist fight.

 

Once again, I'm not saying that they are/are not better than Batman or Capt. America. But, I am saying that they can hold their own in a brawl.

[Guest victim36]

If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

 

Look at the issue of Vegita's jealously, for instance. He spends his time complaining about not being as strong as Goku, and about how he will become stronger. He trains by honing his physical strength in high gravity. He doesn't practice by honing his skills, nor does he ever complain about not being as skilled as Goku.

The one of most common breaks in all of fighting arts in a broken forearm cause by blocking a kick. Randy Couture suffered a broken arm blocking a kick from Gonzaga, and then beat on Gonzaga for a round an a half to secure the win. Liddell broke Rich Franklin's arm with a head kick that was blocked, Franklin returned the favor by knocking Liddell out with the same arm. Point is; that's a common break. Batman most likely has suffered the same break multiple times when blocking head kicks, its just part of it. Top level fighters are more than capable of shrugging it off and adapting to it.

 

Yes, Vegeta wants to be stronger. In DBZ, it is not enough to be just an outstanding Martial Artist. You have to continue to raise you Power Level, or you get left behind physically. With that said it's not like all they do is push-ups and squat thrusts. Every Z fighter who enters an altered gravity room always goes through their forms. They practice their basics, retraining their bodies in the heavier atmosphere. Why? So that they can properly use their heightened abilities.

 

It's just like making weight for a fight, if you don't drop it properly you're sluggish and easily winded. If you put on wieght incorrectly, you lack the speed and power you need to be compete at the higher level.

 

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gravity_Room.jpg

[Guest sirmethos]

-snip-

 

 

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

 

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:

"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

 

About the Crane School:

"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."

 

 

A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

 

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

 

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

 

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

 

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

 

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

 

 

Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

[Guest bigballerju]

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

 

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:

"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

 

About the Crane School:

"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."

 

 

A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

 

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

 

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

 

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

 

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

 

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

 

 

Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

 

If they still don't get it you might as well forget it.