Goku and Vegeta VS Batman and Captain America

[Guest SSGoku]

If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

That's actually a pretty common fighting move, and I've seen Batman do it plenty of times.

[Guest victim36]

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

 

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:

"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

 

About the Crane School:

"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."

 

 

A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

 

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

 

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

 

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

 

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

 

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

 

 

Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

I see the point that you are making. That these schools are designed to train their students to increase their Ki ability, and don't seem to be "true" martial arts academies. So where does the DBZ universe learn to use; jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, elbow smashes, figer jabs, shutos, hard blocks, push blocks, trapping, throws, front kicks, side kicks, round house kicks, axe kicks, jump kicks, sweeps, trips, shin blocks, knee thrusts, etc. Is it from watching to many Van Damme and Segal movies as kids? Is it purely instinctive? Is it trail and error while learning to use Ki blasts during sparring sessions? Or is it plausible that to help focus, concentrate, manipulate, and generate their Ki that they are taught how to fight as part of their training regime?

 

Typically, in Martial Arts, techniques build on each other. You learn a snap front kick before you learn any other kick. That way you learn the basic motor skills of kicking. It helps you retrain your muscles for kicking properly, and you help to focus the mindset necessary for learning new kicks. But, you're right according to the information provided their training only raises their Ki, and teaches new types of Ki based attacks.

[Guest sirmethos]

I see the point that you are making. That these schools are designed to train their students to increase their Ki ability, and don't seem to be "true" martial arts academies. So where does the DBZ universe learn to use; jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, elbow smashes, figer jabs, shutos, hard blocks, push blocks, trapping, throws, front kicks, side kicks, round house kicks, axe kicks, jump kicks, sweeps, trips, shin blocks, knee thrusts, etc. Is it from watching to many Van Damme and Segal movies as kids? Is it purely instinctive? Is it trail and error while learning to use Ki blasts during sparring sessions? Or is it plausible that to help focus, concentrate, manipulate, and generate their Ki that they are taught how to fight as part of their training regime?

 

Typically, in Martial Arts, techniques build on each other. You learn a snap front kick before you learn any other kick. That way you learn the basic motor skills of kicking. It helps you retrain your muscles for kicking properly, and you help to focus the mindset necessary for learning new kicks. But, you're right according to the information provided their training only raises their Ki, and teaches new types of Ki based attacks.

 

 

Finally another one seem to be getting it.

 

I'm not claiming that they have no combat skills. But they have no formal training. All of Goku's combat skills comes from a little initial training from his Grandfather, and the rest from fighting/sparring.

 

 

In the Dragon Ball universe, combat is based on Power. The more powerful you are, and the more powerful techniques you have, the better the fighter.

 

In Marvel/DC, martial arts are much like in the real world, they use a lot of real martial arts, with a few fictional ones added for good measure.

 

 

 

Goku and Vegeta have several years of combat experience. That is their skill.

 

Batman and Captain America have several years of formal training, learning several different styles for physical combat, and several years of combat experience on top of it.

 

 

When you strip the Saiyans of their Ki, they simply don't have a chance of winning against Cap and the Bat.

 

Likewise, if you were to make them even by giving Batman and Captain America a Ki power level equal to Goku and Vegeta, they would easily get defeated by the two Saiyans, because while their physical combat skills are superior, they simply don't have the skill in using Ki as the Saiyans have. The amount of special Ki techniques that the Saiyans have would overwhelm them if nothing else.

 

With equal Ki. Cap and the Bat would still only be able to produce basic Ki blasts. While Goku and Vegeta know several techniques that multiply their power output.

[Guest victim36]

Finally another one seem to be getting it.

 

I'm not claiming that they have no combat skills. But they have no formal training. All of Goku's combat skills comes from a little initial training from his Grandfather, and the rest from fighting/sparring.

 

 

In the Dragon Ball universe, combat is based on Power. The more powerful you are, and the more powerful techniques you have, the better the fighter.

 

In Marvel/DC, martial arts are much like in the real world, they use a lot of real martial arts, with a few fictional ones added for good measure.

 

 

 

Goku and Vegeta have several years of combat experience. That is their skill.

 

Batman and Captain America have several years of formal training, learning several different styles for physical combat, and several years of combat experience on top of it.

 

 

When you strip the Saiyans of their Ki, they simply don't have a chance of winning against Cap and the Bat.

 

Likewise, if you were to make them even by giving Batman and Captain America a Ki power level equal to Goku and Vegeta, they would easily get defeated by the two Saiyans, because while their physical combat skills are superior, they simply don't have the skill in using Ki as the Saiyans have. The amount of special Ki techniques that the Saiyans have would overwhelm them if nothing else.

 

With equal Ki. Cap and the Bat would still only be able to produce basic Ki blasts. While Goku and Vegeta know several techniques that multiply their power output.

I see what you're saying. The Z fighters have little formal training and tons of experience, while Batman and Capt. have both, at least in none Ki combat. In essence you're comparing this fight to a cople of Toughman fighters versus the "Pac-Man" and "Money" Mayweather. And, if the roles were reversed so would the analogy. :-)

 

I don't know if I totally agree; the skill set they show in DBZ is pretty polished to just be basic fighters. But, I can totally see where you're coming from, and more importantly it is easy to back-up your logic. Heck, the hard evidence seems to back up your points more effecitively than it does mine.

 

So the question then becomes: With a month to get use to no Ki, can they translate their combat prowness properly? Can they take those years of experience and adapt quickly enough to fight Batman and Capt., or is the gap to big for them? A month is a long time with the way Goku and Vegeta like to train, and it wouldn't be the first time fighters with solid experience and limited training were able to hold their own with Batman. Bane (off of venom) fought Batman to pretty much a standstill, and Capt. is more known scrapping ability then he is known as a technical striker.

[Guest victim36]

Another question to just throw out there. What about Ryu from Street Fighter? He is stated to have learned Martial Arts, like Goku. However, like Goku, the basis for his abilities and power an enhanced by his chi. His go to techniques are similar to Goku, i.e. huge blasts of energy. Ryu has tapped into the Dark Hado to make himself stronger to win. Gouken, his master, has learned how to empty his soul to make himself stronger.

[Guest sirmethos]

Another question to just throw out there. What about Ryu from Street Fighter? He is stated to have learned Martial Arts, like Goku. However, like Goku, the basis for his abilities and power an enhanced by his chi. His go to techniques are similar to Goku, i.e. huge blasts of energy. Ryu has tapped into the Dark Hado to make himself stronger to win. Gouken, his master, has learned how to empty his soul to make himself stronger.

 

 

Ryu actually has technical/formal training. He was trained for 20+ years by Gouken.

 

Ryu is better compared to someone like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, than to Goku, where the use of Ki/Chi is only a secondary part of the training, or possibly only an advanced part(i.e. only taught later in the training), while for Goku, the use of Ki/Chi is the primary focus of his fighting style.

[Guest bigballerju]

Spiderman I want to say now is actually being taught Kung Fu by Shang Chi so without his powers he would be able to hold himself in a fight to a extent now.

 

Hell wasn't Hercules in DBZ stated to be the best among humans in Martial Arts very early on in DBZ at one point?

[Guest victim36]

Ryu actually has technical/formal training. He was trained for 20+ years by Gouken.

 

Ryu is better compared to someone like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, than to Goku, where the use of Ki/Chi is only a secondary part of the training, or possibly only an advanced part(i.e. only taught later in the training), while for Goku, the use of Ki/Chi is the primary focus of his fighting style.

Ryu spent 20+ years training with a master, an art that uses Ki based attacks at its basis for high level techniques. Goku was given a base knowledge from a world renowned martial artist too, then traveled the world training with a variety of masters, albeit not for 20+years.

 

Ryu learned how to incorporate is Ki into his fighting technique, making it a pivotal part of his aresnal. Goku learned how to incorporate his Ki into combat, making it a pivotal part of his aresnal. In the DBZ world Ki is a more pivotal part of their world.

 

Ryu entered a world wide competition for martial artist, and used his powerful Ki energy to pull out several wins in the clutch. Goku entered a world wide martial arts on several occasions, and used his powerful Ki energy to help pull of several wins in the clutch.

 

Ryu intermixes his combative style with his Ki energy to devestating effect. Goku intermixes H2H with his Ki attacks to devestating effect. Biggest difference, Goku has a larger pool to draw from. Making his attacks bigger and stronger.

 

Here's the problem I'm having with your side of the debate: Goku has been trained, even if it you argue it's just from his Grandpa, he has then refined and introduced new techniques into his system. As part of his world, he has to increase his Ki to keep pace. That doesn't discredit him as a Martial Artist. You can't fight everything he has, using the combative skills he has, and just to be labeled an untrained scrapper.

 

Doing so would be like calling Ryu an untrained fireball thrower. Just because he uses his Hadoken regularly, and uses his Ki to agument his fighting technique, doesn't stop him from being a top quality martial artist.

 

Why is it any different with Goku? Sorry, Goku, we have to overlook all the H2H techniques you executed over the last 30 minutes. Yup, all those techniques that we would use to call anyone else a martial artist are thrown right out of the window. Why? Well, you can fly, shoot out earth shattering blasts, teleport, transfer enrgy to others, and so on. We know everyone else does it too, and that to win you have to keep increasing the amount of energy you can unload. But, that just invalidates you as a martial artist, tough break Goku.

 

What's that Goku? Superman? Well, that's different. You see even though; he shoots lasers out of his eyes, has freezing breath, can fly, move at super speed, sundip to increase his energy, usually just stands and slugs it out with his opponent he is still considered a decent martial artist because Batman trained him.

 

These are the some of the reason I having issues discrediting Z fighters as Martial artist. They fight regularly, they show a high level of competence in H2H combat, their world has martial arts, but because the martial arts increase or unlock Ki its not a real fighting style. It's not like they just fly around in circles firing blast at each other, well not always. They all fight, they all duke it out, and they all show a skill level that will compete with any other martial artist from other sources.

[Guest bigballerju]

Ryu's only KI based attacks are the Hadouken and Shoryuken. The rest of his training, skill, and more does not require KI. Ryu's Martial Arts is pure training and more. It's not based on KI like DBZ. There is a difference between Ryu and Goku.

 

Ryu if you took away his Chi would still be the damn good Martial Artist we know. He just wouldn't be able to do the Hadouken, Shoryuken, and wouldn't have to worry about the Dark Hadou.

[Guest victim36]

Ryu's only KI based attacks are the Hadouken and Shoryuken. The rest of his training, skill, and more does not require KI. Ryu's Martial Arts is pure training and more. It's not based on KI like DBZ. There is a difference between Ryu and Goku.

 

Ryu if you took away his Chi would still be the damn good Martial Artist we know. He just wouldn't be able to do the Hadouken, Shoryuken, and wouldn't have to worry about the Dark Hadou.

I don't disagree. Ryu is a talented martial artist regardless of his Ki attacks. I was just using him to draw a correlation between the two. Ryu without his Hadoken doesn't stop him from being a martial artist, it just takes away part of his arsenal. Taking away Goku's Ki blasts doesn't mean he is no longer a martial artist, it just means he can't fly or destroy the world. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

If you take away Goku's Ki attacks, it doesn't mean he is going to flounder around helplessly all of a sudden. He is still going to be able to fight at a competent level.

[OMFG]

The Hadouken blasts are not supposed to be regularly used.

In all the Street Fighter Anime Movies, Ryu only uses Hadouken in the final matches.

[Guest bigballerju]

I don't disagree. Ryu is a talented martial artist regardless of his Ki attacks. I was just using him to draw a correlation between the two. Ryu without his Hadoken doesn't stop him from being a martial artist, it just takes away part of his arsenal. Taking away Goku's Ki blasts doesn't mean he is no longer a martial artist, it just means he can't fly or destroy the world. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

If you take away Goku's Ki attacks, it doesn't mean he is going to flounder around helplessly all of a sudden. He is still going to be able to fight at a competent level.

 

Thats the thing Goku's entire fighting is based on KI. Goku's punches, kicks, strength, speed, techiques, and more all require KI. Goku also doesn't have that pure Martial Art ability like someone such as Ryu, Cassandra Cain, Snake Eyes, Iron-Fist, and more. Roshi and others even made that clear that KI is important in DBZ.

[Guest victim36]

Thats the thing Goku's entire fighting is based on KI. Goku's punches, kicks, strength, speed, techiques, and more all require KI. Goku also doesn't have that pure Martial Art ability like someone such as Ryu, Cassandra Cain, Snake Eyes, Iron-Fist, and more. Roshi and others even made that clear that KI is important in DBZ.

So you mean that without their Ki, the Z fighters wouldn't be capable of holding their own. That they would be at a total lost. "Kakarot you take Batman," Vegeta yells. "You got it," Goku responds, "wait now that I don't have my Ki I can't fight. I have totally forgotten how to punch, kick, or block."

 

That's what you seem to be saying. That when stripped of their power they would be incapable of properly fighting. That all of the years of training, of learning how to apply combat techniques at speed, how to properly respond to incoming attacks, how to execute their own techniques would become impossible when stripped of the Ki?

 

Now I'm not arguing about who would win. Personally I don't really care about the winner of this situation. Batman is one of the best in DC, and Capt. always seems to be around the top ten in Marvel.

 

I'm only defending the fact that just because Z fighters don't have access to their precious Ki, that all of a sudden they are discredited as martial artist.

[kainboa]

The Z fighters are used to being enhanced by KI, if they are suddenly without KI, they wouldn't be nearly as effective combatants as they are With KI.

 

All their martial arts training, are based on getting new KI techniques, and enhancing their KI power, not how to properly throw a punch or do a block, that is stuff they've just picked up from the various fights they've been in.

[Guest victim36]

Well I guess I'm at a loss here. I figured that they would have been game for this fight without their Ki. Apparently, I'm in the wrong here. Goku with his Ki is a bad man to mess with, H2H or otherwise. Goku with little to no Ki is incapable of properly defending himself.

[Guest bigballerju]

Exactly Kainboa. Lets put it like this.........

 

How or with what true Martial Arts would Goku counter Batman's main combat being a mixture of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Ninjitsu? How would Vegeta counter Cap's Judo, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Wushu? Thats bascally what we are saying.

[kainboa]

Goku with his Ki is a bad man to mess with, H2H or otherwise.

 

Agreed, With his Ki, Goku is an extremely hard match for a lot of people, however, without his Ki, he's just barely above regular mooks.

[Landon]

Nobody's asked the most important question:

 

What's the point of talking about a fight where half the competition have had their defining features removed?

 

Removing Goku and Vegeta's ki is like saying "let's have Batman fight, except he never became Batman. He's just some normal dude with no training." I don't think this is a set-up worth contemplating.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

 

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:

"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

 

About the Crane School:

"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."

 

 

A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

 

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

 

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

 

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

 

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

 

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

 

 

 

Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

 

 

really you are still trying to debate this, when people have said otherwise? Batman trains in his skills, but guess what happens when you train in skills, you get stronger, so Basically Batman is going about everything the opposite of how Goku does it, He trains then does his weight lifting, Goku does his weight lifting and then trains.

 

SAME THING< I know you are just saying this because you are a DBZ hater, but you obviously dont know what training is. Go to a school/dojo/gym and train, I promise you they will do everything Batman does and what Goku does. I train in a real gym and I do rope climbs, push us, sprints, weight lifting, swimming, and lots of other conditioning and strength training exercises. I also train in form and technique, which is why I think you are confusing skill with techniue, and as the saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat, different strokes for different people

[Guest Pseudonym]

I can see it written convincingly both ways.

[Guest bigballerju]

Nobody's asked the most important question:

 

What's the point of talking about a fight where half the competition have had their defining features removed?

 

Removing Goku and Vegeta's ki is like saying "let's have Batman fight, except he never became Batman. He's just some normal dude with no training." I don't think this is a set-up worth contemplating.

 

LOL thats the thing me, Ivan, Methos, and others have been saying. It's amazing they still don't get it.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Exactly Kainboa. Lets put it like this.........

 

How or with what true Martial Arts would Goku counter Batman's main combat being a mixture of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Ninjitsu? How would Vegeta counter Cap's Judo, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Wushu? Thats bascally what we are saying.

 

 

how about with his fists and legs, like any other fighter. Don't focus on the style so much, a well rounded fighter is a well rounder fighter. What will Batman do that Goku hasn't seen? I think you guys are going over board by saying that Goku is just a regular joe on the street. That either makes me think you are doing it on purpose. How is naming something a style different than training to do it without calling it a name. Roshi Style is a Hermit Style of fighting, not of just being strong. The strongest fighter is not about brute strength, as they said many times. Didn't Cell remind Trunks of that? Roshi wouldn't say, I am going to train you in every style, he wuld say I am going to train you in the best way to fight, like what Jeet Kune Do is to Bruce Lee. You see unless Batman is allowed to have above human abilities, he isn't going to be better than Goku. Goku trains everyday, so if he was incorporated into the DC Gotham universe, he would be just as resourceful (in fighting) as Batman is, since Goku has fought people of different styles, aliens, monsters, dinosaurs, he is able to adapt just as good, if not better than Batman. I am not stating that Batman is a crap fighter, I am saying that at a certain point it does not matter anymore of number of styles, to say Goku has no skills is to say out of line.

[Guest sirmethos]

I don't disagree. Ryu is a talented martial artist regardless of his Ki attacks. I was just using him to draw a correlation between the two. Ryu without his Hadoken doesn't stop him from being a martial artist, it just takes away part of his arsenal. Taking away Goku's Ki blasts doesn't mean he is no longer a martial artist, it just means he can't fly or destroy the world. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

If you take away Goku's Ki attacks, it doesn't mean he is going to flounder around helplessly all of a sudden. He is still going to be able to fight at a competent level.

 

Ok, I thought you were getting it, but apparently I was wrong.

 

 

Goku(and most of the other DB characters) got initial training. I.e. learning the basics of throwing a punch and kick, basic dodging, etc. The rest of his training, is purely focused on increasing his power.

 

If you go find a pub brawler with several years of experience, he will likely be just as good at throwing punches, kicking and dodging, as Goku.

 

Goku defeats his enemies, by being Stronger, Faster, more Durable, and having better, more advanced, Ki Techniques than his opponents, not by being the better technical fighter.

 

 

 

Batman and Captain America have received loads of formal training, starting(like Goku) with the basics of kicking, punching, dodging, etc. but after learning the basics, they have been shown/taught more advanced/better methods, constantly increasing their technical skill over several years of formal training. They also train to keep their bodies in peak physical condition, but where Goku defeats his enemies by being Faster and Stronger, Batman and Cap defeats their enemies by being the better fighter.

 

 

 

really you are still trying to debate this, when people have said otherwise? Batman trains in his skills, but guess what happens when you train in skills, you get stronger, so Basically Batman is going about everything the opposite of how Goku does it, He trains then does his weight lifting, Goku does his weight lifting and then trains.

 

SAME THING< I know you are just saying this because you are a DBZ hater, but you obviously dont know what training is. Go to a school/dojo/gym and train, I promise you they will do everything Batman does and what Goku does. I train in a real gym and I do rope climbs, push us, sprints, weight lifting, swimming, and lots of other conditioning and strength training exercises. I also train in form and technique, which is why I think you are confusing skill with techniue, and as the saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat, different strokes for different people

 

 

Actually, I'm far from a "DBZ hater", I think Dragonball/Dragonball Z is highly entertaining and own the entire manga, which I have re-read on several occasions.

 

However, unlike others, I have no problem with seeing the limitations of the characters, as well as their strengths.

 

With their actual powers, the DBZ characters are a match for most mid-tier characters(Wonder Woman/Superman power level), due to their insane power level and combat experience.

 

But in a scenario like this, their combat experience, without the added power that actually makes them win their fights in their own universe, simply isn't enough to give them a chance against fighters who have an equal amount of combat experience and are, on top of that, far better technical fighters as well.

 

 

 

This particular fight, is like taking a bar brawler with plenty of experience from brawls over the years, and putting him up against someone like Bruce Lee.

 

They both have plenty of Experience. A bar brawler like that is not an unskilled fighter by any means, if you put him up against a technically skilled fighter with no experience, then he would likely win the fight, he simply isn't even close to being a match, for someone as skilled as Bruce Lee, who has both the experience and the technical skill.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Ok, I thought you were getting it, but apparently I was wrong.

 

 

Goku(and most of the other DB characters) got initial training. I.e. learning the basics of throwing a punch and kick, basic dodging, etc. The rest of his training, is purely focused on increasing his power.

 

If you go find a pub brawler with several years of experience, he will likely be just as good at throwing punches, kicking and dodging, as Goku.

 

Goku defeats his enemies, by being Stronger, Faster, more Durable, and having better, more advanced, Ki Techniques than his opponents, not by being the better technical fighter.

 

 

 

Batman and Captain America have received loads of formal training, starting(like Goku) with the basics of kicking, punching, dodging, etc. but after learning the basics, they have been shown/taught more advanced/better methods, constantly increasing their technical skill over several years of formal training. They also train to keep their bodies in peak physical condition, but where Goku defeats his enemies by being Faster and Stronger, Batman and Cap defeats their enemies by being the better fighter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I'm far from a "DBZ hater", I think Dragonball/Dragonball Z is highly entertaining and own the entire manga, which I have re-read on several occasions.

 

However, unlike others, I have no problem with seeing the limitations of the characters, as well as their strengths.

 

With their actual powers, the DBZ characters are a match for most mid-tier characters(Wonder Woman/Superman power level), due to their insane power level and combat experience.

 

But in a scenario like this, their combat experience, without the added power that actually makes them win their fights in their own universe, simply isn't enough to give them a chance against fighters who have an equal amount of combat experience and are, on top of that, far better technical fighters as well.

 

 

 

This particular fight, is like taking a bar brawler with plenty of experience from brawls over the years, and putting him up against someone like Bruce Lee.

 

They both have plenty of Experience. A bar brawler like that is not an unskilled fighter by any means, if you put him up against a technically skilled fighter with no experience, then he would likely win the fight, he simply isn't even close to being a match, for someone as skilled as Bruce Lee, who has both the experience and the technical skill.

 

 

sorry if you arent a hater of dbz, I just mean that based on your scenario, that brawler can and will sometimes win, even if it is bruce lee. Like Mike Tyson being in his prime would beat Bruce Lee, and he is just master at one style, if it went to the ground it would be different, but in this case goku knows the ground game too. Just because you go to a school or dojo doesn't mean you will a better skilled fighter than someone who trains at home but has no master. Even Bruce Lee would say that too, which is why he always trained. You have one part of this right Methos, I promise I know what you mean, but you have to see the bigger picture and that is that skill is acquired through training, and goku does just as much as Batman. I am not even saying Captain since he shouldn't even be here, he has all his skills by alreting his make up to be able to analyze info, and perform at peak human at the same time,something Goku and Batman have done w/o enhancements.

Goku's only "power" is to multiply what he already has. He will train to gain further levels of power. most powerful in DBZ means most well rounded fighter, since they use skills, techs, ki, and tk to win.

 

If you want an example Bruce Lee trained in one style first(Gung Fu), mastered it and then went on to master a few others(only the good parts in his personal opinion) then made his own up, relinquishing formal training to just more "barbaric" style of training, Roshi mastered his style, which means he tested it vs others around the planet and then just trained Goku his superior one style to just training him the micro-styles.

 

Batman has done the same thing and so has Goku so it is pointless to judge it the way you do. Also, if I agreed with you on this I would counter agrue with Goku being more skilled than them since he can out due masters of their perspective styles.

[Guest victim36]

Ok, I thought you were getting it, but apparently I was wrong.

 

 

Goku(and most of the other DB characters) got initial training. I.e. learning the basics of throwing a punch and kick, basic dodging, etc. The rest of his training, is purely focused on increasing his power.

 

If you go find a pub brawler with several years of experience, he will likely be just as good at throwing punches, kicking and dodging, as Goku.

 

Goku defeats his enemies, by being Stronger, Faster, more Durable, and having better, more advanced, Ki Techniques than his opponents, not by being the better technical fighter.

 

 

 

Batman and Captain America have received loads of formal training, starting(like Goku) with the basics of kicking, punching, dodging, etc. but after learning the basics, they have been shown/taught more advanced/better methods, constantly increasing their technical skill over several years of formal training. They also train to keep their bodies in peak physical condition, but where Goku defeats his enemies by being Faster and Stronger, Batman and Cap defeats their enemies by being the better fighter.

Ok. This reasoning makes a lot more sense than what the others are trying to say. Z fighters are moderatley trained, but because of the nature of their fights they are forced to focus on increasing their speed, strength, and Ki manipulation than Batman and Capt.

 

I can agree with this for two reasons: 1) you are not stating that the Z fighters aren't martial artist. You are simply pointing out the emphasis in their system. For Goku to stay relevant he has to increase his power level, while Batman has to increase his combative finesse. 2) you're not stating that Goku and Vegeta would be unable to provide a fight for Batman and Capt. I think comparing Goku to a pub brawler is selling him a bit short, but I get the message. Goku's limited formal training, combined with tons of experience, and time spent refining his H2H skills have helped him to become the best fighter all around in his universe. But, when compared to Capt. or Batman it still pales from a technical aspect.

 

Capt. and Batman don't get faster, stronger, or more durable; so they have to increase the finesse, agility, variety of skills that they can readily employ in a fight. They have to constantly evolve their martial arts skill to stay relevant and remain at the top. For Goku and Vegeta to stay relevant they have to focus more on their Ki levels than their H2H competance.

 

As you said earlier, sirmethos, given the limited time frame, the limitations of abilities, and the quality of their opponents; Goku and Vegeta have been positioned to take a beating. It could be written either way convincingly, in my opinion. Goku and Vegeta have tons of experience, that have been trained how to fight, they have refined those skills over several years, and they do have a little bit of time to get use to the match's limitations. Will they win? Highly unlikely, their opponents have similar experience, years of refinement, more comfortable with the setup's constraints, and a deeper bag of tricks to pull from. Then again if the roles were reversed Capt. and Batman would most likely be on the receiving end of a presumed beating. Not having any experience in Ki manipulation.

 

I don't take issue with any of this information, as always you have presented that in a clear and intelligent format. My issue was, and is, that people think that because they are reduced to normal human levels the Z fighters can't do anything. All of the years of combat, refiniment, and introduction on new principles/philosphy go right out the window now that they're at "peak human level". That all of sudden everything they've done to help improve their H2H over the years gets swept aside, and the Z fighters become Thug 1 and 2 for Capt. and Batman to backhand at will.