Goku and Vegeta VS Batman and Captain America

[Guest sirmethos]

Ok. This reasoning makes a lot more sense than what the others are trying to say. Z fighters are moderatley trained, but because of the nature of their fights they are forced to focus on increasing their speed, strength, and Ki manipulation than Batman and Capt.

 

I can agree with this for two reasons: 1) you are not stating that the Z fighters aren't martial artist. You are simply pointing out the emphasis in their system. For Goku to stay relevant he has to increase his power level, while Batman has to increase his combative finesse. 2) you're not stating that Goku and Vegeta would be unable to provide a fight for Batman and Capt. I think comparing Goku to a pub brawler is selling him a bit short, but I get the message. Goku's limited formal training, combined with tons of experience, and time spent refining his H2H skills have helped him to become the best fighter all around in his universe. But, when compared to Capt. or Batman it still pales from a technical aspect.

 

Capt. and Batman don't get faster, stronger, or more durable; so they have to increase the finesse, agility, variety of skills that they can readily employ in a fight. They have to constantly evolve their martial arts skill to stay relevant and remain at the top. For Goku and Vegeta to stay relevant they have to focus more on their Ki levels than their H2H competance.

 

As you said earlier, sirmethos, given the limited time frame, the limitations of abilities, and the quality of their opponents; Goku and Vegeta have been positioned to take a beating. It could be written either way convincingly, in my opinion. Goku and Vegeta have tons of experience, that have been trained how to fight, they have refined those skills over several years, and they do have a little bit of time to get use to the match's limitations. Will they win? Highly unlikely, their opponents have similar experience, years of refinement, more comfortable with the setup's constraints, and a deeper bag of tricks to pull from. Then again if the roles were reversed Capt. and Batman would most likely be on the receiving end of a presumed beating. Not having any experience in Ki manipulation.

 

I don't take issue with any of this information, as always you have presented that in a clear and intelligent format. My issue was, and is, that people think that because they are reduced to normal human levels the Z fighters can't do anything. All of the years of combat, refiniment, and introduction on new principles/philosphy go right out the window now that they're at "peak human level". That all of sudden everything they've done to help improve their H2H over the years gets swept aside, and the Z fighters become Thug 1 and 2 for Capt. and Batman to backhand at will.

 

 

Completely ignoring their combat experience and calling them completely unskilled would just be stupid.

 

But if their superior physical capabilities/their Ki, is removed, then Batman and Captain America(who have at Least as much experience as the two Saiyans), are far superior in terms of combat skills. Simply because they train to increase their Skills as well as keeping their physical capabilities at their peak. While the Saiyans primarily train to increase their physical capabilities.

 

 

But yea, it seems that you're getting it Now the only one that still isn't getting it, seems to be Dr.Pymp

[Guest victim36]

Completely ignoring their combat experience and calling them completely unskilled would just be stupid.

 

But if their superior physical capabilities/their Ki, is removed, then Batman and Captain America(who have at Least as much experience as the two Saiyans), are far superior in terms of combat skills. Simply because they train to increase their Skills as well as keeping their physical capabilities at their peak. While the Saiyans primarily train to increase their physical capabilities.

 

 

But yea, it seems that you're getting it Now the only one that still isn't getting it, seems to be Dr.Pymp

Right. I can get behind your argument, just got distracted by some of the other things said on here. Both groups have to focus their primary attention on two very different disciplines. By forcing one group to adhere to the other groups discipline, and removing their primary skill set, it hamstrings that group. Making victory all but impossible.

 

Like I said from the beginning, I wasn't here to argue the winner. Just didn't like that some where saying without their Ki the Z fighters were little mor than standard thugs.

[Guest xman4life]

Let me simplify this ok? Anyone who is saying DBZ has REAL martial arts skills can you please tell me what was the last fighting style named that Goku learned? and not anything called a technique? Or better yet what was the last thing Goku learned before using Ki?

 

The last question should let you know what level Goku is at compared to Bats or Captain America.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Let me simplify this ok? Anyone who is saying DBZ has REAL martial arts skills can you please tell me what was the last fighting style named that Goku learned? and not anything called a technique? Or better yet what was the last thing Goku learned before using Ki?

 

The last question should let you know what level Goku is at compared to Bats or Captain America.

 

 

everyone that Goku, fought had their own style of fighting, and it does not name them since they just fight. Plus you do realize a punch is a punch right? A kick is a kick, Goku knows the most effective ways to fight since he has to keep up with people much stronger. If he didn't have ki, his moves would still be effective since his style of fighting is one that evolves others as he is fighting. I am not saying it would be a flawless victory, and I am not saying Bruce and Cap would be powerless vs them, but it would still be an equal fight.

 

Also why is no one saying Captain America would be the worst off, since he is artificially enhanced as well, lets make him normal and see how he would do.

[Indolent]

Eh, Cap once went without the Virus before and was still basically the same, except for I think the bullet dodging/seeing ability. He kicked ass.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Eh, Cap once went without the Virus before and was still basically the same, except for I think the bullet dodging/seeing ability. He kicked ass.

 

 

wasn't he weak and tiny? or was that just just the movie?

[Indolent]

No, he actually had to, for the first time ever, exercise to stay in optimal shape. He was still pretty much the same, other than needing to exercise.

 

I'm still not sure on his bullet sight ability but don't take my word for it.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

No, he actually had to, for the first time ever, exercise to stay in optimal shape. He was still pretty much the same, other than needing to exercise.

 

I'm still not sure on his bullet sight ability but don't take my word for it.

 

 

Steve Rogers was born July 4, 1917, in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, New York City, to Irish immigrants Sarah and Joseph Rogers.[31] Joseph Rogers died when Steve was only a child and his mother, Sarah, died of pneumonia while Steve was a teen. By early 1940, before America's entry into World War II, Rogers is a tall but scrawny fine arts student specializing in illustration. Disturbed by the rise of the Third Reich, Rogers attempts to enlist, only to be rejected due to being in poor shape. U.S. Army General Chester Phillips, looking for test subjects, offers Rogers the chance to serve his country by taking part in a top-secret defense project — Operation: Rebirth, which seeks to develop a means of creating physically superior soldiers. Rogers volunteers for the research and, after a rigorous selection process, is chosen as the first human test subject for the Super-Soldier serum developed by the scientist "Dr. Josef Reinstein",[32][33] later retroactively changed to a code name for the scientist Abraham Erskine.[34

 

Actually I am right, Captain would be nothing w/o his serum. He shouldn't even be in this topic, as he did not earn everything, sure he would still be able to be a martial artists, but to be a great one, you need physical skills too,

 

Captain America's serum granted him superior stats, plus reflexes and ability to retain and process information. /o that he is nothing close to beating Jubilee up

[C.T.]

Yes your copy and pasting from Wikipedia really proves you right...

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Yes your copy and pasting from Wikipedia really proves you right...

 

 

well it was common knowledge that he was scrawny and weak, but had heart. Am I wrong? Post me something that says otherwise.

 

I know Capt physically was inferior to most men. SO how would he beat someone better and more skilled? His serum makes him do all that. and his training is only achieved through artificial means

[AVP vs The Terminator]

... seriously? No, Dr. Pymp, you're wrong. He WAS scrawny before receiving the serum. The serum boosted his natural physical stats, developed his muscles, etc. You really think that, if the serum were stripped from his system, all of the muscle that was added on would just disappear? No. The muscle would remain, he'd retain his superior physical stats. He'd just need to work out to keep himself in shape.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

... seriously? No, Dr. Pymp, you're wrong. He WAS scrawny before receiving the serum. The serum boosted his natural physical stats, developed his muscles, etc. You really think that, if the serum were stripped from his system, all of the muscle that was added on would just disappear? No. The muscle would remain, he'd retain his superior physical stats. He'd just need to work out to keep himself in shape.

 

 

You are wrong, since his DNA did not have that much potential. Imagine that he never received it, would he get to that strong and powerful? If you think that, you are on crack.

 

 

Also yes it would all go away, Captain America's the only perfect super soldier, his body is producing the serum inside him, which is why he hasn't lost it. Also, what happens to bane when his serum is taken away. He gets scrawny.

 

My point is if Goku has no ki, then batman has no belts, and Cap has no serum, or else this is a one sided discussion and proves that people are just trying to make Cap and Batman look better than what they actually are.

 

Genetics plays a key part in life, and guess what Cap's were altered to be perfect, not just enhanced.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

If he never received it, yes, he'd still be scrawny. But if he received it, then had it stripped away? He'd still be peak human. All the muscle the serum had built up wouldn't just shrink. They just wouldn't be continuously maintained by the serum, so he'd need to put himself through serious physical exercise to keep them.

 

Bane's Venom =/= the Super Soldier Serum. Also, saying that he 'gets skinny' is incorrect. You've been watching too many Batman movies. He's still a good 6'5" without Venom, and has demonstrated (on several occasions) that he is physically superior to Batman.

 

Cap isn't superhuman, by the way... he's Peak Human. Roughly equal to Batman, Goku and Vegeta (Minus their powers). And it has already been proved that Cap and Bats are superior to the other two.

[Indolent]

FFS, there was an ACTUAL storyline about Captain Steve Rogers having his Serum deactivated. Nothing happened other than the new-found need of constant exercise to maintain the shape he was in. He eventually got it reactivated by the end of said storyline. And yes... Captain America is superhuman in two aspects... his reflexes are actually bullet time, as he's stated that he can see "faster" than bullets. The other aspect is his physical speed is nothing to scoff at... no normal human being can run a mile in little over a minute.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

FFS, there was an ACTUAL storyline about Captain Steve Rogers having his Serum deactivated. Nothing happened other than the new-found need of constant exercise to maintain the shape he was in. He eventually got it reactivated by the end of said storyline. And yes... Captain America is superhuman in two aspects... his reflexes are actually bullet time, as he's stated that he can see "faster" than bullets. The other aspect is his physical speed is nothing to scoff at... no normal human being can run a mile in little over a minute.

Which confuses me that people say he is peak human, he has to be low level super human like Logan.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

If he never received it, yes, he'd still be scrawny. But if he received it, then had it stripped away? He'd still be peak human. All the muscle the serum had built up wouldn't just shrink. They just wouldn't be continuously maintained by the serum, so he'd need to put himself through serious physical exercise to keep them.

 

Bane's Venom =/= the Super Soldier Serum. Also, saying that he 'gets skinny' is incorrect. You've been watching too many Batman movies. He's still a good 6'5" without Venom, and has demonstrated (on several occasions) that he is physically superior to Batman.

 

Cap isn't superhuman, by the way... he's Peak Human. Roughly equal to Batman, Goku and Vegeta (Minus their powers). And it has already been proved that Cap and Bats are superior to the other two.

 

 

nothing has been proven buddy, if you mean Sirmethos and some others have argued about it, yes it has. Plus Goku with his training has proven he is peak human, sinc he was a teen.

 

Plus Bane does get skinny, I read his comics( well some, snce they are boring) and everytime they cut it off he loses his powers and becomes a normal person not peak.

 

To be peak human that means you have to be pretty strong, able to lift more than 3 times your weight, run faster than the fastest man alive, and be able to go gymnastics better than anyone or just as good as the best. Bane cannot do that without his serum, I have never read him doing gold medal olympic acrobatic moves

 

Batman can and so can Goku, but Captain can't. even if you take his serum away, he will not have all that tolerance to pain, and his muscles will produce more lactic acid.

 

I would say Goku=Batman physically

then under them both would be Capt A.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Which confuses me that people say he is peak human, he has to be low level super human like Logan.

 

 

Yeah the things he does are above human level, like jumping out of a window and landing on an airplane during Civil War. Landing on the ground from 30 stories and still ran like notihng happened.

 

I would say the peak human thing is for people that don't put too much thought into it. Frank Castle is not even peak human.

[C.T.]

[AVP vs The Terminator]

I'll let others who can explain it better than I respond to your other points, but you're wrong about Bane. He doesn't get 'small and skinny'. He's peak human in the sense that he's superior physically to Batman in some areas, excluding acrobatics. Venom turns Bane into a hulking monster, but even without it he's peak human in some areas; he even fought evenly with Killer Croc without it. A quick trip to his Wiki page would have told you all this. -.-

 

The only version of Bane who is depicted as being puny and weak is (to my knowledge) the version depicted in one of the crappy '90s Batman movies. This leads me to believe that either A: You know nothing of the actual comic book character and have accepted the movie origin as the real one (Which, sadly, seems to be a common mistake amongst non-comic book educated Batman fans nowadays), or B: You've somehow mashed Bane's origins in with Captain America's.

 

Edit: Thanks, Nova.

[Indolent]

...

 

Cap is still peak human... all the serum does is just makes him peak human, boom, simple as that, and without it, he's still peak human (as seen in a storyline).

 

So yeah, nothing really changes.

[C.T.]

Frank Castle is not even peak human.

 

Well you're right on one thing, Castle is superhuman. The guy has to have a superhuman resistance to pain, considering all the injuries he has gotten and ignored.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

...

 

Cap is still peak human... all the serum does is just makes him peak human, boom, simple as that, and without it, he's still peak human (as seen in a storyline).

 

So yeah, nothing really changes.

 

 

I don't agree with you, without it he is a whimp, and if he had it done to him, then taken away completely, he would need to work out extremely hard everyday to maintain it, but you haven't addressed the fact that the serum helps him age slower, also, grants him the ability to produce less lactid acid, so now if the serum was taken away, he would go back to building lactic acid, which will make him slower, run less distances, bench less. Simple answer no he will not stay the same w/o it. not even close, sure he might for a week or so, but nothing more. If Batman received the serum and then lost it, he would go back to what he last was before he got it, so Capt A is actually inferior to both people here.

[C.T.]

HE CAN'T LOSE IT. At least, not from anything less than complete molecular destruction. I mean, just because he loses a syringe doesn't mean squat.

 

Damn, I thought I made that clear.

[Indolent]

I don't agree with you, without it he is a whimp, and if he had it done to him, then taken away completely, he would need to work out extremely hard everyday to maintain it, but you haven't addressed the fact that the serum helps him age slower, also, grants him the ability to produce less lactid acid, so now if the serum was taken away, he would go back to building lactic acid, which will make him slower, run less distances, bench less. Simple answer no he will not stay the same w/o it. not even close, sure he might for a week or so, but nothing more. If Batman received the serum and then lost it, he would go back to what he last was before he got it, so Capt A is actually inferior to both people here.

Then please disprove the fact that Captain America was for all intents and purposes, peak human without the serum in a previous storyline he starred in as Captain Steve Rogers. :/

[Hugo Fowl]

Then please disprove the fact that Captain America was for all intents and purposes, peak human without the serum in a previous storyline he starred in as Captain Steve Rogers. :/

 

*Settles in to watch with Popcorn*