The Imperium of Man vs. Marvel Earth

[Guest sirmethos]

He might be someone (like me) who doesn't accept outside universe explanations.

 

So, you are someone that blindly accepts things like Spider-Man defeating Firelord, Black Panther defeating Silver Surfer and Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos and Terrax.

 

That makes debates like this one a lot easier

 

In that case, the armada doesn't stand a chance, since the heroes always win, and clearly the Armada are not the heroes in this scenario.

 

 

Well then technically Legion and Scarlet Witch, when they are at their reality warping levels, are villains. So they aren't included now? The others technically aren't heroes either, but rather bystanders, like neutral NPCs or whatever, as they do not belong to an actual 'Hero' team, nor are considered to be solo heroes.

 

Let's see... Mister M is a hero, Franklin Richards is a hero, Arcadia DeVille is a hero, Willie Evans is a hero, Gaia is a hero(not the goddess, the mutant), and Wiccan is a hero(granted, he's not a reality warper, but he's a high level Probability manipulator.), Hope is a hero, Synch is a hero.

 

All of them (high level)reality warpers, or(in Hope and Synch's case) power mimics.

 

 

We haven't even begun pulling out other characters who could(also) take care of the problem on their own, like X-Man(Nate Grey)

[Guest the atom]

Please, I beg of you, read the actual posts that have been made. Scarlet Witch, X-man, Mister M... these people aren't gods. Do you even know what reality-warping is? Poof, the fleet is gone. That is reality-warping.

 

Err...the only time Scarlet Witch has ever attempted something on that scale (to my recollection) was when she has her little nervous freakout and spazed away most of the mutant population. As for the rest I don't really know their feats.

[Guest Ruinus]

So, you are someone that blindly accepts things like Spider-Man defeating Firelord, Black Panther defeating Silver Surfer and Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos and Terrax.

 

That makes debates like this one a lot easier

 

In that case, the armada doesn't stand a chance, since the heroes always win, and clearly the Armada are not the heroes in this scenario.

 

I'm not someone who reads comics, so I wouldn't know what I would do in situations where character X doesn't use an ability against character Y even though he did against character Z. However, I'm pretty sure my answer wouldn't be "Well that was required by the plot". I'd try rationalizing it within the confines of the setting. After all, if I did accept out of universe explanations I would say things like you just did, ie "the fleet loses because they are the bad guys and they always lose".

[Guest Scar]

Depends who's on the ships.

 

If it's the Emperor, Imperium takes this. As strong as Thor and co are, there's not much they can do to prevent the Emperor from ripping open a warp storm right in the center of the planet at the start of the encounter. Even if they do manage to put him down, Earth's gone. And even without him, an alpha level psyker could rip the planet apart mentally within seconds.

 

Take them away and I'm not sure. The idea of Magneto taking down the entire fleet by himself is, to put it bluntly, stupid. If he's not fast enough to avoid being maimed by Logan, he's not fast enough to take down a fleet big enough to fit into Venus' orbit. However, he isn't working alone. Banding together, it's possible that they'd be able to take down all the ships before it gets a good enough hit in.

[Guest sultan]

Err...the only time Scarlet Witch has ever attempted something on that scale (to my recollection) was when she has her little nervous freakout and spazed away most of the mutant population. As for the rest I don't really know their feats.

My baaaaaad. I'm just throwing out a few examples of the many reality-warpers out there. If SW can't do it, then there are many others who can.

 

Depends who's on the ships.

 

If it's the Emperor, Imperium takes this. As strong as Thor and co are, there's not much they can do to prevent the Emperor from ripping open a warp storm right in the center of the planet at the start of the encounter. Even if they do manage to put him down, Earth's gone. And even without him, an alpha level psyker could rip the planet apart mentally within seconds.

 

Take them away and I'm not sure. The idea of Magneto taking down the entire fleet by himself is, to put it bluntly, stupid. If he's not fast enough to avoid being maimed by Logan, he's not fast enough to take down a fleet big enough to fit into Venus' orbit. However, he isn't working alone. Banding together, it's possible that they'd be able to take down all the ships before it gets a good enough hit in.

Doesn't matter who's on the bloody ships. The heroes get prep time, and so any reality warpers can deal with it easily. Even without prep time they can deal with it.

[Guest the atom]

My baaaaaad. I'm just throwing out a few examples of the many reality-warpers out there. If SW can't do it, then there are many others who can.

 

 

Doesn't matter who's on the bloody ships. The heroes get prep time, and so any reality warpers can deal with it easily. Even without prep time they can deal with it.

 

Based on what? You haven't given any feats for any of these people beyond the fact that 'they're reality warpers' as if it's some kind of automatic no-limits power. I highly doubt that these people will be able to stop each and every single ship in the fleet before they start pounding earth with continent flattening ordinance.

[Guest sirmethos]

Based on what? You haven't given any feats for any of these people beyond the fact that 'they're reality warpers' as if it's some kind of automatic no-limits power. I highly doubt that these people will be able to stop each and every single ship in the fleet before they start pounding earth with continent flattening ordinance.

 

Again with the feats.

 

They are High Level Reality Warpers.

 

Mister M is nigh-omnipotent, he is a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Franklin Richards, another being who is nigh-omnipotent. a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Arcadia DeVille is a reality warper with unknown upper limits.

 

Willie Evans is a reality warper with powers rivaling those of Franklin Richards.

 

Gaia is a reality warper of the highest level, with no known limits.

 

Wiccan is a High level Probability Manipulator, again, with no known limits.

 

Hope is a power mimic with no known limits, who could easily copy the powers of all of the above.

 

Synch is a power mimic, his power allows him to copy the powers of another superhuman and gain mastery of the power he has copied.

 

 

All you need to know, is their power and what that power actually is. They have the ability to change the laws of physics, or create brand new laws of physics, or even laws of logic. A good example of a high level reality warper, was Emperor Joker, who changed reality so that 2+2 = fish. Franklin Richards created an entire pocket universe to which he transported all of the heroes. etc. etc. etc.

 

 

Now, granted, most of these reality warpers are fairly peaceful in nature, so chances are that they won't simply eradicate the armada, it is much more likely that they will use their powers defensively. But that effectively removes any chance of the armada succeeding in destroying(or even damaging) the earth. That leaves a whole bunch of others to go out and destroy the fleet.

 

 

X-Man for example, a Telekinetic with nigh-unlimited energy, who could rip the armada apart. Thor, Iron Man(Uru-armor), Blue Marvel, etc. etc. who can go out and destroy ships left, right and center. While the Future Foundation think up a way to either dispose of the armada as a whole, or to call for help from people like Silver Surfer, Quasar and Nova-Prime, all of which could destroy the fleet.

 

 

In the end, it's just a matter of time before the armada is destroyed, and there is absolutely no chance of earth getting destroyed by the fleet. Regardless of who is aboard the ships.

[Indolent]

DEVIL SLAYER!

[Guest sultan]

Again with the feats.

 

They are High Level Reality Warpers.

 

Mister M is nigh-omnipotent, he is a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Franklin Richards, another being who is nigh-omnipotent. a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Arcadia DeVille is a reality warper with unknown upper limits.

 

Willie Evans is a reality warper with powers rivaling those of Franklin Richards.

 

Gaia is a reality warper of the highest level, with no known limits.

 

Wiccan is a High level Probability Manipulator, again, with no known limits.

 

Hope is a power mimic with no known limits, who could easily copy the powers of all of the above.

 

Synch is a power mimic, his power allows him to copy the powers of another superhuman and gain mastery of the power he has copied.

 

 

All you need to know, is their power and what that power actually is. They have the ability to change the laws of physics, or create brand new laws of physics, or even laws of logic. A good example of a high level reality warper, was Emperor Joker, who changed reality so that 2+2 = fish. Franklin Richards created an entire pocket universe to which he transported all of the heroes. etc. etc. etc.

 

 

Now, granted, most of these reality warpers are fairly peaceful in nature, so chances are that they won't simply eradicate the armada, it is much more likely that they will use their powers defensively. But that effectively removes any chance of the armada succeeding in destroying(or even damaging) the earth. That leaves a whole bunch of others to go out and destroy the fleet.

 

 

X-Man for example, a Telekinetic with nigh-unlimited energy, who could rip the armada apart. Thor, Iron Man(Uru-armor), Blue Marvel, etc. etc. who can go out and destroy ships left, right and center. While the Future Foundation think up a way to either dispose of the armada as a whole, or to call for help from people like Silver Surfer, Quasar and Nova-Prime, all of which could destroy the fleet.

 

 

In the end, it's just a matter of time before the armada is destroyed, and there is absolutely no chance of earth getting destroyed by the fleet. Regardless of who is aboard the ships.

 

 

Yeah, what he said.

[Guest shellsbut]

Then what exactly was the big deal about the Annihilation wave? Aside from Annihilus their ships sucked, and their weapons were short ranged and were more or less as powerful as your average sidewinder missile, and yet they stood a very real chance of wiping out everything.

 

Hell even three or four Heralds working at once couldn't kill them all fast enough.

 

 

WTF LOL The Annihilation wave was a mass destuctive force rarely seen in comics with 2 characters on the bad side that were near on par Galactus, an amped up Annihilus and Thanos. THe Annihilation wave could wipe out everything in Warhammer 40k Tyranids/Imperium/Chaos amries/Tau/Eldar/Orcs/and Necrons. Nothing it WH40K would be able to stop it, not even The Emperor of Mankind or Chaos Gods.

[Guest the atom]

Again with the feats.

 

Most other sites call this 'evidence'.

 

Mister M is nigh-omnipotent, he is a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Franklin Richards, another being who is nigh-omnipotent. a Reality Warper of the highest level.

 

Arcadia DeVille is a reality warper with unknown upper limits.

 

Willie Evans is a reality warper with powers rivaling those of Franklin Richards.

 

Gaia is a reality warper of the highest level, with no known limits.

 

Wiccan is a High level Probability Manipulator, again, with no known limits.

 

Hope is a power mimic with no known limits, who could easily copy the powers of all of the above.

 

Synch is a power mimic, his power allows him to copy the powers of another superhuman and gain mastery of the power he has copied.

 

Uh huh. Still not seeing any feats or links, or really anything other then claims about 'reality warping' as if it's some kind of be-all-end-all. All psykers are reality warping, so by your logic I could say that every astropath in the fleet could toss earth into the warp and call it a day (actually that could be an option of last resort if one ship decides to overload it's warp reactor). But then you'd ask for feats wouldn't you?

 

All you need to know, is their power and what that power actually is. They have the ability to change the laws of physics, or create brand new laws of physics, or even laws of logic. A good example of a high level reality warper, was Emperor Joker, who changed reality so that 2+2 = fish. Franklin Richards created an entire pocket universe to which he transported all of the heroes. etc. etc. etc.

 

Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.

 

X-Man for example, a Telekinetic with nigh-unlimited energy, who could rip the armada apart. Thor, Iron Man(Uru-armor), Blue Marvel, etc. etc. who can go out and destroy ships left, right and center. While the Future Foundation think up a way to either dispose of the armada as a whole, or to call for help from people like Silver Surfer, Quasar and Nova-Prime, all of which could destroy the fleet.

 

What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.

 

WTF LOL The Annihilation wave was a mass destuctive force rarely seen in comics with 2 characters on the bad side that were near on par Galactus, an amped up Annihilus and Thanos. THe Annihilation wave could wipe out everything in Warhammer 40k Tyranids/Imperium/Chaos amries/Tau/Eldar/Orcs/and Necrons. Nothing it WH40K would be able to stop it, not even The Emperor of Mankind or Chaos Gods.

 

The Annihilation wave was rather pathetic, and had the weapons to show for it. Even mass bombardment did little more then bust up buildings and cities. 40k bombardments regularly melt the crusts of planets in a matter of hours at most, and that's not even getting into their strategic weapons. And that's just the Imperium. You literally have no idea of how scary Necrons are do you?

[Indolent]

What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.

The rest of your post, the first regarding Psykers: No idea about them. As for Franklin Richard: It does depend, after all he did resurrect the heroes after Onslaught killed them, so who knows he might do something. And as for Shellsbut: He's clearly ignorant. You're correct in that Warhammer40K's forces wold utterly crush the likes of the Annihilation Wave itself except for the powerful beings associated with it. Ravenous, Annihilius, etc.

 

Now moving on to the Quoted Text... here is where you show a bit of ignorance.

 

Thor has shown the capability of releasing energy attacks that have completely annihilated Planets. The Anti-Force and the Thermo Blast. As for Iron-Man... he's been equipped with Mini-nukes in the past, which would be lower level, correct? Not only that, he's been stated to be able to absorb energy from the local area... and convert it to billions of petawatts and fire it off in the form of an Omnibeam. That's easily nuclear level. Not to mention, current Iron Man is equipped with Anti-Matter bullets... nuff said.

[Guest sirmethos]

The rest of your post, the first regarding Psykers: No idea about them. As for Franklin Richard: It does depend, after all he did resurrect the heroes after Onslaught killed them, so who knows he might do something. And as for Shellsbut: He's clearly ignorant. You're correct in that Warhammer40K's forces wold utterly crush the likes of the Annihilation Wave itself except for the powerful beings associated with it. Ravenous, Annihilius, etc.

 

Now moving on to the Quoted Text... here is where you show a bit of ignorance.

 

Thor has shown the capability of releasing energy attacks that have completely annihilated Planets. The Anti-Force and the Thermo Blast. As for Iron-Man... he's been equipped with Mini-nukes in the past, which would be lower level, correct? Not only that, he's been stated to be able to absorb energy from the local area... and convert it to billions of petawatts and fire it off in the form of an Omnibeam. That's easily nuclear level. Not to mention, current Iron Man is equipped with Anti-Matter bullets... nuff said.

 

Actually, that was his Bleeding Edge armor, Marvel has upgraded him again with his new Uru-Armor.

[Guest sultan]

Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.

Heroes get 10 mins prep time. I reckon that's enough time for him to prevent it from happening in the first place.

[Indolent]

From what I read, it was during the Fear Itself storyline?

 

It just states that its the Bleeding Edge armor having received a layer of Raw Uru on its armor.

[Guest shellsbut]

Most other sites call this 'evidence'.

 

 

 

Uh huh. Still not seeing any feats or links, or really anything other then claims about 'reality warping' as if it's some kind of be-all-end-all. All psykers are reality warping, so by your logic I could say that every astropath in the fleet could toss earth into the warp and call it a day (actually that could be an option of last resort if one ship decides to overload it's warp reactor). But then you'd ask for feats wouldn't you?

 

 

 

Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.

 

 

 

What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.

 

 

 

The Annihilation wave was rather pathetic, and had the weapons to show for it. Even mass bombardment did little more then bust up buildings and cities. 40k bombardments regularly melt the crusts of planets in a matter of hours at most, and that's not even getting into their strategic weapons. And that's just the Imperium. You literally have no idea of how scary Necrons are do you?

 

 

Are you cluless? The Annihilation wave destroyed the Kree Shi,ar and Skrull empires and the Nova corps all of which are easily the equal of anything in WH40. It killed Herlads that could solo any faction in WH40 and the 2 Galactus level beings, Aegis and Tenenbrous ARE NEAR *vulgarity*ING UNIVERSAL level beings. Each of them could solo everything in WH40K at once with a wave of their hand.

[Guest Ruinus]

As someone who doesn't read comics I have a question: if these characters are all capable of easily re-writing reality or destroying thousands of warships so fast that not a single one of those warships gets to fire off a shot at Earth, or can do any of the things being implied in this thread, how do these comics continue? You'd think that the so called "street level" characters, or even characters that work on a planteray level would have all been killed years ago by a single one of these dudes just saying "You know what? I don't want them here anymore."

[Guest LoneWolf]

Well.. They all happen to be insane or mysterious beyond our understanding, or are little kids etc.. They never seem to be in control of their powers with a definite goal, unless the plot requires it of course.

[C.T.]

As someone who doesn't read comics I have a question: if these characters are all capable of easily re-writing reality or destroying thousands of warships so fast that not a single one of those warships gets to fire off a shot at Earth, or can do any of the things being implied in this thread, how do these comics continue? You'd think that the so called "street level" characters, or even characters that work on a planteray level would have all been killed years ago by a single one of these dudes just saying "You know what? I don't want them here anymore."

 

Because the comic companies want to make money by selling copies. No one wants to see all these all powerful beings crush all opposition. I mean, it's just like if the wizard world contacted the muggle world, got all or most of the Death Eaters in one place and hit them with a hydrogen bomb. Boring...

[Guest Ruinus]

If that's true then why is everyone seeming to bank on them being fully in control of their powers during this fight? I don't doubt that, eventually the Marvel Earth will be able to destroy the IoM fleet, but I doubt it'll be because of a single dude going "No, I don't want these here and waving a hand and destroying everything" and I also doubt it'll be before the ships send at least 137,000 energy lances/rounds/bombs/missile at the planet and kill most of the population.

[Guest Ruinus]

Because the comic companies want to make money by selling copies. No one wants to see all these all powerful beings crush all opposition. I mean, it's just like if the wizard world contacted the muggle world, got all or most of the Death Eaters in one place and hit them with a hydrogen bomb. Boring...

 

Well I know the real reason for that (companies want to make money) but outside universe reasons aren't valid to explain things inside the settings. I want to know why these reality warpers aren't just pulling people out of the timeline or slowing down reality to a crawl relative to them, throwing stars at individual people, altering universal constants or crumpling galaxies into black holes to throw at people like ninja stars. Or why, at the lowest, they don't simply rewrite reality to not allow crime.

[C.T.]

There would be no point in having costumed superheroes at all if that happened?

[Guest Ruinus]

There would be no point in having costumed superheroes at all if that happened?

 

I know, which is what I'm getting at. IF these reality warpers were really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings then the Marvel Universe would look alot different than it does.

 

Marvel Universe doesn't have (at least to my knowledge) reality warpers doing any of the things I listed, so these people probably aren't really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings.

[Guest sirmethos]

Well I know the real reason for that (companies want to make money) but outside universe reasons aren't valid to explain things inside the settings. I want to know why these reality warpers aren't just pulling people out of the timeline or slowing down reality to a crawl relative to them, throwing stars at individual people, altering universal constants or crumpling galaxies into black holes to throw at people like ninja stars. Or why, at the lowest, they don't simply rewrite reality to not allow crime.

 

The only reason there is for Reality Warpers not simply taking care of things is, as you call it, outside universe reasons. I.e. the will of the authors. Inside the universe there has never been given any real reasons for it. Just like during WWH, there was never given an "inside the setting" explanation for why Dr. Strange just boosted his physical powers and duked it out with Hulk, instead of just using magic and sending him away, putting him in stasis, or half a dozen other methods of disposing of the threat, that Strange has available.

 

And just like there is no "inside the setting" explanation, for why Darkseid didn't simply use his telepathic powers to extract the information he needed from Batman's mind.

 

etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

[Guest sirmethos]

I know, which is what I'm getting at. IF these reality warpers were really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings then the Marvel Universe would look alot different than it does.

 

Marvel Universe doesn't have (at least to my knowledge) reality warpers doing any of the things I listed, so these people probably aren't really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings.

 

The only one of the reality warpers that I listed, that is Not stated as being "nigh-omnipotent" or another similar wording for the same obscene amount of power, is Arcadia DeVille. Arcadia's upper limit is "unknown", thus it could be relatively low.

 

But both Franklin Richards, Mister M, Willie Evans and Wiccan, are all stated as having virtually no limits(For Willie Evans his power is stated directly as rivaling that of Franklin Richards).