Skirmisher Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Skirmisher, although I respect your debate. I am probably as impartial as you'll get. I really don't care who would win, I just looked at this thread because Grano created it. But from what I've seen, Vegito is outmatched. I mean, Surfer created a black hole to bury someone! His feats on every scan are ridiculous. His level and plethora of powers are starting to dwarf Vegitos to me. Fighting jawbreaker?Then I'll just have to try and prove that Vegito could theoretically fight within a Black Hole! First how many G's are there in a Black Hole? Lets use a standard Stellar Black Hole, and lets repurpose this handy Star Wars calculator to find the proper G value of it. A standard Stellar Black Hole has an average diameter of 30Km, and determining that it takes just over light speed to achieve escape velocity that would give a value of ~300,000,000,000 G Fighting conditions. That's quite alot now, but I think that Vegito could pull it off. Edit: I Actually think it should be far less than that in G's due to the fact that 1G = 9.797645m/s2 which would mean that it would only take about 30,570,323G to equal Light Speed... First is the Fact that Before even the Androids, Vegeta was training at 350-500G, since then in Base form the Z-Fighters have gotten stronger through the use of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber as well as through many fights and other training sessions. He also trained at this level without the aid of any Super Saiyan level. As well, judging Goku's power before and after he went SSJ for the first time, the increase between the level is 50x, this covers Strength, Durability, Speed, and all the other stuff that go with Combat. Now that would mean that a Super Saiyan level 3 should be able to easily withstand at least 62,500,000G, and Buu was fighting evenly with a SSJ3. Yet Vegito in Base form was easily at least one level higher than Buu, lets just say x2 for the moment. Vegito also has access to SSJ2. Based on this, Base Vegito should be able to handle 125,000,000G, while SSJ2 Vagito should be able to easily handle 312,500,000,000G! He would be able to escape a Black Hole by sheer Power Alone, without using a gimmicky trick like Hyperspace or Dimensional Travel, and he wouldn't need to use IT. This is also a fairly conservative number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treacherous Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 You know, that was so smart sounding that you win out of default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarvelFan15 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Indeed. I'm licking my wounds because of his almighty math skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Man Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Math? See, that's why I avoid DBZ threads. Oh well. I'll just have to keep on going. So, you've managed to prove that Vegito can, in theory, fight within a black hole. Well, that's great and all, except for one thing. Vegito needs to breath air. It's an established fact that most Z-Fighters still breath oxygen. That's why Goku was worried about surviving in space during his fight with Frieza. That's why all the fights take place on Earth. Just like Superman, Vegito still needs air. Surfer does not need air + There's no air in space/black hole = flaw in your theory. I'll wait to see your counterexampke. Note: I applaud your debating skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hmmm... Touché on the need to breath. Well there are always two options... Do what Superman does and hold his breath, or wear a space suit/air tank... With IT he would always be within seconds of getting new air, and Z-Fighters have shown a very good ability to hold their breath (They've been under water for several minutes without showing any sign of fatigue). As for Space suits... well yes, they can be ripped, though it would mean that Vegito would fight at Max right off the start so that there wouldn't be any chance of it getting torn. There is also two other points to bring up here that I just thought of. First, Vegito is technically a Magic Entity. The Kai's earrings and the fact that he survived as a jaw breaker point to this. As a Magical Being he just might not need to breath air. The second point is a simple wish from the Dragon Balls could rectify this weakness... lol, I just thought of another option, one that would allow him to fight without need of either a suit or holding his breath. An Air Capsule... all he would need to do is pop one into his mouth and press the trigger with his tongue. Poof and Air! I'm also sure that Bulma could rig up a slow release capsule just for this fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zreth Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Actually I have another idea. I'm not exactly sure about this so I think I'm gonna need comfirmation but can't the air become trapped around him if he can move fast enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Artemis Entreri Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hmmm... Touché on the need to breath. Well there are always two options... Do what Superman does and hold his breath, or wear a space suit/air tank... With IT he would always be within seconds of getting new air, and Z-Fighters have shown a very good ability to hold their breath (They've been under water for several minutes without showing any sign of fatigue). As for Space suits... well yes, they can be ripped, though it would mean that Vegito would fight at Max right off the start so that there wouldn't be any chance of it getting torn. There is also two other points to bring up here that I just thought of. First, Vegito is technically a Magic Entity. The Kai's earrings and the fact that he survived as a jaw breaker point to this. As a Magical Being he just might not need to breath air. The second point is a simple wish from the Dragon Balls could rectify this weakness... lol, I just thought of another option, one that would allow him to fight without need of either a suit or holding his breath. An Air Capsule... all he would need to do is pop one into his mouth and press the trigger with his tongue. Poof and Air! I'm also sure that Bulma could rig up a slow release capsule just for this fight. None of the above will work with Surfer. I understand the transmute options is dead for this debate...But Silver Sufer can see on a molecular level. Meaning he would simply see the breathing aid and then dispatch it leaving Vegito back to square one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Actually I have another idea. I'm not exactly sure about this so I think I'm gonna need comfirmation but can't the air become trapped around him if he can move fast enough?Brolly had a technique where he trapped air around him in a Ki Shield... similar, but I don't think Vegito knows that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granobulax Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 It was called right when it was said that Vegito is a magical being. He lived even though he was a jawbreaker and had no lungs so it stands to reason that in saiyan form he wouldn't need oxygen either. The Potara earrings possess great magical powers after all. Jawbreaker w/o lungs = no need for oxygen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 None of the above will work with Surfer. I understand the transmute options is dead for this debate...But Silver Sufer can see on a molecular level. Meaning he would simply see the breathing aid and then dispatch it leaving Vegito back to square one.But the Surfer wouldn't be able to touch a capsule that's in his mouth. Vegito just wouldn't allow it. As for holding his breath, there is nothing that the Surfer could do to stop IT, and IT is shown to be many, many times faster than what they've stated it to be. So while the Surfer could get to a planet that Vegito has ITed to, he wouldn't have the time to destroy it before Vegito takes a couple breaths. It was called right when it was said that Vegito is a magical being. He lived even though he was a jawbreaker and had no lungs so it stands to reason that in saiyan form he wouldn't need oxygen either. The Potara earrings possess great magical powers after all. Jawbreaker w/o lungs = no need for oxygen.Ding, just what I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Artemis Entreri Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 It was called right when it was said that Vegito is a magical being. He lived even though he was a jawbreaker and had no lungs so it stands to reason that in saiyan form he wouldn't need oxygen either. The Potara earrings possess great magical powers after all. Jawbreaker w/o lungs = no need for oxygen. What you stated is only a theory with no proof! Sadly magic can't be the answer without proof. You don't know if the jawbreaker had lungs are not. I'm not sure either I admit. But the fact is the fight took place in a oxygen filled environment. A blackhole is the premise on which I entered the debate and base my comments on. Surfer will defeat Vegito only if he doesn't hole back. I have the look for it, but I have a Marvel Vs. comic that pit Surfer against the Magically powerful Scarlet Witch. It was a STOMP as he simply told her that the powers she possessed were to powerful for a human to hold and TOOK THEM FROM HER! NOW THAT"S BADASS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granobulax Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 You want proof that a jawbreaker has no lungs? Even Buu said "You can still talk! How is this possible?" meaning that he could talk without a mouth. He was made of candy. If his magic was strong enough for that, then who's to say that in his regular form he needed oxygen? The problem with arguing for DBZ is that it's all speculation. We can only assume what powers and capabilities they have. I'm not in any way saying that Vegito would win this fight. All I'm arguing for is that it's closer than either DBZ fans or Marvel fans would like to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Artemis Entreri Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 You want proof that a jawbreaker has no lungs? Even Buu said "You can still talk! How is this possible?" meaning that he could talk without a mouth. He was made of candy. If his magic was strong enough for that, then who's to say that in his regular form he needed oxygen? You just proved my point....If he can talk with no mouth as a jawbreaker. He could breathe with no lungs! The point is maybe he was still breathing. The problem with arguing for DBZ is that it's all speculation. We can only assume what powers and capabilities they have. I'm not in any way saying that Vegito would win this fight. All I'm arguing for is that it's closer than either DBZ fans or Marvel fans would like to think. My other point was that Silver Surfer simply TOOK the magic from one of Marvel's top tier magic users. Just cause he deemed it too powerful for her to wield. In theory he could do the same to Vegito. In theory since he beat he beat Scarlet Witch. This should be a stomp given the feats the witch has done dwarfs any and every feat a DBZ characters has done...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheRandomBandit Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Grano and Skirmish, are the only Dbz people I love to debate with. They are both great debators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarvelFan15 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But the Surfer wouldn't be able to touch a capsule that's in his mouth. Vegito just wouldn't allow it. As for holding his breath, there is nothing that the Surfer could do to stop IT, and IT is shown to be many, many times faster than what they've stated it to be. So while the Surfer could get to a planet that Vegito has ITed to, he wouldn't have the time to destroy it before Vegito takes a couple breaths. You forget Surfer can teleport as well... Also, he controls matter and energy by will, not touch, meaning that Vegito would have no control over what Surfer wanted to do with the capsule. And, if outside help is available, why can't Surfer just call Galactus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Man Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I agree with Marvelfan. Surfer doesn't need to touch things in order to transmutate. I'm not saying it as a mean to win, just to discard the capsule option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granobulax Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 You just proved my point....If he can talk with no mouth as a jawbreaker. He could breathe with no lungs! The point is maybe he was still breathing. He was talking either through his magic or through telekenisis. Yes, saiyans use telekenisis. He had no lungs and therefore needs no oxygen. My other point was that Silver Surfer simply TOOK the magic from one of Marvel's top tier magic users. Just cause he deemed it too powerful for her to wield. In theory he could do the same to Vegito. In theory since he beat he beat Scarlet Witch. This should be a stomp given the feats the witch has done dwarfs any and every feat a DBZ characters has done......That's one thing about saiyans. They have inexhaustable energy. Goku has had all of his energy drained many times and yet he wins virtually every fight he's ever been in. Each time a saiyan nearly loses, they only get stronger. In a way, by taking Vegito's energy may end up making him stronger in the long run. This will hold especially true for Vegito. As for feats, of course Vegito has none to speak of. He's good after all. Now, if Vegito was evil? You'd have some CRAZY feats under his belt that you could feast your eyes upon. After destroying the DBZ universe, an evil Vegito would break the dimentional barier (another capability he has) and go on ravaging countless universes. I say again, I don't see a clear cut winner, but I do see two evenly matched opponents, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, that eventually end up being friends as soon as each figures out that the other is actually good. Great debate though guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I agree with Marvelfan. Surfer doesn't need to touch things in order to transmutate. I'm not saying it as a mean to win, just to discard the capsule option.Not that I agree with him attempting to transmute something that is hidden, but that still leaves IT and holding breath or the fact that he may not even need to breath. That last point is backed up with the fact that the Z-Fighters (or at least Goku) have shown Telepathic abilities. Vegito would have easily been able to talk to Buu with that, and in doing so he wouldn't have needed to breath to talk. The Jaw Breaker couldn't breath as it didn't have lungs, and it talked telepathically so it did not have to breath. Thus Vegito does not have to breath to remain alive... well he probably would need to breath in order to talk non-telepathically, but that's not a necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ricrery Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry if I'm necroing, but who were those Surfers from the Ultimate Galactus Trilogy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest victim36 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Out of all the Marvel characters it seems that Silver Surfer is the only one that can bring a hard fight to DBZ fighters. With his crazy strength, amazing speed, and ridiculous feats and powers. What I ve noticed this board has become, is what will Vegito do to survive a black hole, and Silver Surfers transmutation abilities. What will the Surfer do about Vegito's abilities? His ability to destroy worlds with his more basic attacks, move at speeds that would allow him to pull free from a blackhole, and strength that has not been shown near full capacity.Not saying Silver Surfer couldn't get away in time or match speed and strength, but Vegito is not going to sit back and let a blackhole open up or himself to be transmuted and not do anything in the mean time. At the speeds both of these guys can reach, it's possible that this will be reduced to a hand fight. Both sides should be able to sense the others destructive force. So it's possible that either side, or both, will push the fight so that the other doesn't have a chance to initiate their more powerful abilities. Quick question, how much of Silver Surfer's powers are linked to his board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Man Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 None whatsoever. He has been shown to fly/use all his powers without it. Heck, he can even make more/replace it, with a blink. In fact, during Annihilation, he tricked this guy into grabbing it, and then sent it flying towards the edge of the Universe. Note: Here's another way he can win. Time travel back to prevent Goku's birth (Here he does it to Overlord).http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2052/fm198000635aa2.jpg http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/781/fm198000636ad3.jpghttp://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5586/fm...00637endzv8.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest victim36 Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Yeah I read up on the board right after I posted. Sorry. Cheap trick Surfer....taking the terminator approach. If he does that can Vegito collect the Dragonballs and wish Silver Surfer out of existence? It'll be a race to see who cheap shots first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Man Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I doubt it'd work. Otherwise, why didn't he do it against Buu, or Cell? Heck, isn't it a rule that he can't kill with the Dragonballs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DataSnake Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I doubt it'd work. Otherwise, why didn't he do it against Buu, or Cell? Heck, isn't it a rule that he can't kill with the Dragonballs?The dragonballs can't be used to kill anyone stronger than their creator (either Dende or Guru at this point). They can, however, be used to wish for invincibility. Back on topic, I would say Vegito takes this. Mystic Buu is stronger than Kid Buu, who is a multi-galaxy buster, and Vegito was toying with him. And regarding the time travel thing, that would not cause Surfie to win the match, it would prevent the match from happening at all, meaning nobody would win. Speed-wise, it works like this:1. Master Shen was a high-end bullet timer.2. Without his weighted clothes, Goku was too fast for Tien, who was at least as fast as Master Shen, to follow.2. Raditz was too fast for Goku to follow.3. After training with King Kai, Goku was much faster than Nappa, who was at least as fast as Raditz4. Vegeta was still fast enough that Goku lost track of him during their first fight5. Burter could cover what looked like at least a good quarter mile in the time it took Vegeta to turn around6. Goku, at his first arrival on Namek, was so fast that Burter couldn't even follow him.7. Freeza, at 50%, was fast enough that even with a tremendous Zenkai from his fight with Ginyu, Goku couldn't see him.8. Goku, as an unmastered SSJ1, was faster than Freeza by a similar amount.9. The future androids were fast enough to keep pace with an unmastered SSJ1, but couldn't track an Ascended Saiyan.10. Ascended Saiyan Vegeta was unable to see most of Goku's fight with Cell.11. SSJ2 Gohan was too fast for cell to match.12. Vegito was too fast for Mystic Buu, who was at least as fast as SSJ2 Gohan. Therefore, SSJ2 Vegito would be faster than a high-end bullet timer by a factor exceeding a^11, where a is the number of times faster that someone you would have to be for them to be unable to see you. If a=7 (slightly less than the square root of 50, which would fit quite nicely with steps 7 and 8), that would make SSJ2 Vegito more than 1,977,326,743 times as fast as Master Shen, who was easily able to catch bullets, which move at about 1000 m/s. Vegito would therefore have no trouble catching objects that move at 1,977,326,743,000 m/s, which is 6,595.65 times the speed of light. (Bear in mind, this is a very low-end calculation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 DataSnake, you have done, what other have tried and failed to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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