Achilles (Troy) vs Batman (The Dark Knight)

[G4hardcore]

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[G4hardcore]

First, having a gun is not the equivalent of having massive amounts of skill in every weapon of that time. Anyone can hold a gun, and it's highly unlikely that the easily intimidated goons Batman fought had any extensive training in arms, let alone hand to hand combat.

 

Consider the fight Batman had with his former mentor, an expert combatant in hand to hand combat. I don't recall the Dark Knight having an easy time there, and considering this fight takes place in an open enviroment, Batman's infamous environmental combat is hindered vastly.

 

The suit in Batman Begins was stated by Bruce himself to be restricting in certain areas in regards to movement, while Achilles is wearing significantly less armor. I highly doubt Batman is more agile in this instance.

 

Achilles was the greatest warrior of his time. Batman himself cannot claim that title, and regardless of the time period, Batman is not going to have an easy time. In fact, I'll wager Bats is as suprised by the fighting style of Achilles as Achilles is of Batman's. Oh, and as great as stealth is, I don't see it coming in handy in an open coliseum.

 

Let's not forget the obvious advantage Achilles has in the form of reach. He will be able to strike and slash away at Batman, with enough distance between them that Batman cannot effectively fight him in terms of hand to hand. This hinders his ability to fight back, especially since he doesn't have a shield.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

First, having a gun is not the equivalent of having massive amounts of skill in every weapon of that time. Anyone can hold a gun, and it's highly unlikely that the easily intimidated goons Batman fought had any extensive training in arms, let alone hand to hand combat.

 

You misunderstand the point I was making with that example. The fact of the matter is that countering people armed with automatic weapons with no firearms of your own is an extremely impressive feat for a realistic character, one few if any people on this Earth are capable of. And Batman does it regularly with ease. Achilles was an extremely impressive warrior, no doubt, but his feats are not in the same league of incredibility.

 

Consider the fight Batman had with his former mentor, an expert combatant in hand to hand combat. I don't recall the Dark Knight having an easy time there, and considering this fight takes place in an open enviroment, Batman's infamous environmental combat is hindered vastly.

 

The suit in Batman Begins was stated by Bruce himself to be restricting in certain areas in regards to movement, while Achilles is wearing significantly less armor. I highly doubt Batman is more agile in this instance.

 

Yes, his mentor and one of the greatest martial artists in the world who was responsible for teaching Bruce everything he knew. Don't forget that before that, Wayne took on plenty of his former students single-handedly with little trouble. Besides, that's a bit of a bad comparison for the exact reason that Ras Al Ghul knew all of Batman's tricks (for the most part). Achilles has no such advantage.

 

As for the matter of armor and agility: that would be a valid point if we were talking about his suit from Batman Begins. We aren't. His newer suit from The Dark Knight allowed for far greater agility. And it should be noted that even with the previous suit, he was still capable of performing impressive feats of grace and agility on par with a gymnast. And it's not like it's dead weight, after all. He gets something for that weight: notably protection capable of stopping bullets, much less a bronze spear tip. Not to mention the fact that Achilles has metal armor. Not exactly the choice for maximum agility, either, nor does it do much to help him against the kind of attacks Bats will use against him.

 

Achilles was the greatest warrior of his time. Batman himself cannot claim that title, and regardless of the time period, Batman is not going to have an easy time. In fact, I'll wager Bats is as suprised by the fighting style of Achilles as Achilles is of Batman's. Oh, and as great as stealth is, I don't see it coming in handy in an open coliseum.

 

Let's not forget the obvious advantage Achilles has in the form of reach. He will be able to strike and slash away at Batman, with enough distance between them that Batman cannot effectively fight him in terms of hand to hand. This hinders his ability to fight back, especially since he doesn't have a shield.

 

Red herring. Key words there being "of his time". That's about as important to the outcome of this battle as taking the greatest knight of the Medieval age and pitting him against an average modern Marine. I never said Bats would have an easy time, only that he has decisive advantages.

 

Stating that Achilles' fighting style would be every bit as alien to him as Bruce's would be to Achilles is patently untrue. Not something he's very familiar with, sure, but he would understand the basic concept and have a fair idea of the route Achilles would take during battle. Don't forget that Batman trained significantly with melee weapons, swords and such included, under Ras Al Ghul (yes, even in the film). Conversely, Achilles might as well be fighting a black-clad demon who projects noxious mystical gases and causes blinding explosions of light, with the ability to shoot a rope out of his hand that carries him away.

 

That advantage in reach only applies if Batman is stupid enough to go up and try to punch the guy. He's not and has proven such multiple times throughout both films. I'm still waiting to see how Achilles will somehow be able to counteract being gassed to the point of uselessness, and hit with Batarangs from an opponent who has formidable armor, agility, and the ability to seemingly fly away every time Achilles tries to get close.

[G4hardcore]

Countering people armed with weapons is only too easy when they have no extensive training, are already agitated, are superstitious, and can't even see their target. More often than not, stealth is his biggest weapon against large armed groups. You almost make it seem as if he's dodging future ala Spider-man. In terms of stealth, yes, Batman has Achilles outclassed. Unfortunately, a colosseum is no place for stealth tactics.

 

He took on his teammates, exactly. People who were studying that sole style of combat--which Bruce happened to excel in. That's not to say this is not a feat in and of itself, but it's important to keep in mind it's simple to beat someone else at something if you are better at it. Achilles style of fighting is a fusion of the classics and the improvised. He excels at what he does because people don't anticipate his unique approach. At the very least, both fighters will have maneuvers that the other would not be able to predict.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say it allowed for far greater mobility. Entertaining that thought, even if it did, the fact the the armor is an armor will always hinder his agility to some degree. Even if it's a ten percent factor, that could very well be the difference. Achilles has, in comparison, far more agility in his armor than Batman, though that doesn't mean he's far more agile. I would say it's just slightly, which is enough.

 

If Batman can punch Achilles's armor, metal mind you, with enough force to cause damage and not hurt his hand, then kudos to him. I doubt this, though I could be wrong. From what I remember, the suit was only bulletproof against small caliber weapons and most knives. And that was only where the costume was thickest. Vulnerable points would include the neck, knees, elbows, ect. Also, I can't help but think that cape would get in the way... Achilles tends to stay in motion during fights, and that includes circumnavigating the target.

 

Hm... You make it seem like being the most skilled warrior of his time isn't a feat in itself. Living in the past does not devalue the fact. Fighting a demon? Achilles does not get intimidated, though I won't deny the effectiveness of certain gasses. All I can say is the distance fighting that he is accustomed to may or may not serve him well against the relatively close range of the gasses. The rope thing? He's got nothing vertical to latch onto in the middle of a colosseum.

 

Dodging batarangs will be no harder than dodging arrows or spears. Achilles does this regularly and seemingly without effort. It's that fact that leads me to believe he has a superior reaction time compared to Bats, who dodges the aim of guns rather than bullets, if that.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Countering people armed with weapons is only too easy when they have no extensive training, are already agitated, are superstitious, and can't even see their target. More often than not, stealth is his biggest weapon against large armed groups. You almost make it seem as if he's dodging future ala Spider-man. In terms of stealth, yes, Batman has Achilles outclassed. Unfortunately, a colosseum is no place for stealth tactics.

 

He took on his teammates, exactly. People who were studying that sole style of combat--which Bruce happened to excel in. That's not to say this is not a feat in and of itself, but it's important to keep in mind it's simple to beat someone else at something if you are better at it. Achilles style of fighting is a fusion of the classics and the improvised. He excels at what he does because people don't anticipate his unique approach. At the very least, both fighters will have maneuvers that the other would not be able to predict.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HJj9PewU8#t=2m36s

 

The only stealth Batman uses there is to get the first punch on the Joker. After that, it's all direct fighting against a group of decently-armed, well-organized thugs by himself. And if you think countering weapons is easy, even with those parameters, you're insane. Talk to anyone in real life who is trained in defensive tactics such as Krav Maga. Even the most experienced of them will tell you that it's a last resort and more often than not will end up with you getting shot, even if it's one inexperienced guy holding the weapon. The fact that Batman does this, sometimes even without the benefit of stealth, to ENTIRE groups consistently is an amazing feat.

 

True, but he did so rather easily against people who had been studying the art longer than he had. Besides, I was using it to show that hand-to-hand combat with "outdated" weapons was no alien concept to Bruce. I'm willing to concede that there are a few tricks Achilles could throw out that Bats wouldn't expect, but there are at least twice as many that Bruce is capable of that would catch Achilles even more off-guard.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say it allowed for far greater mobility. Entertaining that thought, even if it did, the fact the the armor is an armor will always hinder his agility to some degree. Even if it's a ten percent factor, that could very well be the difference. Achilles has, in comparison, far more agility in his armor than Batman, though that doesn't mean he's far more agile. I would say it's just slightly, which is enough.

 

If Batman can punch Achilles's armor, metal mind you, with enough force to cause damage and not hurt his hand, then kudos to him. I doubt this, though I could be wrong. From what I remember, the suit was only bulletproof against small caliber weapons and most knives. And that was only where the costume was thickest. Vulnerable points would include the neck, knees, elbows, ect. Also, I can't help but think that cape would get in the way... Achilles tends to stay in motion during fights, and that includes circumnavigating the target.

 

If it didn't allow for greater mobility, he wouldn't have bothered giving up the protection. And you're acting like Achilles is running around naked by way of comparison. The man is wearing metal armor. Metal, the stuff that's dense and heavier than the synthetic materials used in Batman's suit. What do you think's heavier? A Kevlar vest or a steel breastplate? Which do you think will constrict the user more? Besides, I don't know what supposed agility feats you're drawing on for Achilles to show this amazing light-as-a-feather bronze armor, whereas we see Batman climbing, jumping, and balancing seemingly unhindered.

 

You're making the assumption that I ever expected Bats to punch through metal armor. I don't, and he wouldn't, either. Achilles is still open to plenty of attacks: grappling, attacks to the face, attacks to the legs, as well as those to the neck. And that's ignoring Batman's veritable arsenal of gasses and such for the moment.

 

Morgan Freeman's character never stated exactly what the armor's high-end capabilities were, although he did say something along the lines of "it'll stop everything except a straight shot". Lots of room for interpretation in that statement. In any case, remember that he did state the armor was originally intended for the military as an improvement over current body armor. Modern military body armor is capable of stopping multiple hits from steel-core armor-piercing rifle rounds. That's not concrete proof, of course, but it's something to consider. Hitting a target that's actively moving and dodging is hard enough. How difficult do you think it will be when Achilles also has to worry about hitting precise points on Batman's anatomy in order to make sure he achieves anything, all without letting Bats get too close?

 

As for the cape... the thing isn't there to suit Wayne's fashion sense, you know. IIRC, it's also armored and slightly weighted. Not enough to encumber the wearer, but it's an effective weapon and defense. I could easily see Bruce using the thing in the same way a gladiator used a net in an arena. At the very least, it could be an effective distraction in close-quarters combat. And you're acting as if Batman likes to stand still and let people hit him, he moves just as much, if not MORE than Achilles does.

 

Hm... You make it seem like being the most skilled warrior of his time isn't a feat in itself. Living in the past does not devalue the fact. Fighting a demon? Achilles does not get intimidated, though I won't deny the effectiveness of certain gasses. All I can say is the distance fighting that he is accustomed to may or may not serve him well against the relatively close range of the gasses. The rope thing? He's got nothing vertical to latch onto in the middle of a colosseum.

 

Dodging batarangs will be no harder than dodging arrows or spears. Achilles does this regularly and seemingly without effort. It's that fact that leads me to believe he has a superior reaction time compared to Bats, who dodges the aim of guns rather than bullets, if that.

 

It's a feat, but the way you posed the point made it sound as if it was hugely relevant and an instant winner for the guy. It isn't, because the warriors he's used to dealing with of his time period are very different opponents than Batman. That's what devalues the fact.

 

Those gasses are likely game-changers. You ever been pepper sprayed? Tear gassed? Hit with a flashbang? It's not fun, and I can attest to the latter based on personal experience. The last thing you have on your mind is fighting back. Now, Achilles was a tough guy. I'm willing to bet that he's capable of fighting through the pain and burning, but eventually his respiratory system will take a hit and his combat effectiveness will go down the drain. All it takes is one distraction to allow Batman to close in, inside the range of his spear and shield. And Achilles isn't so tough without his weapons.

 

As for the grapple gun, there's plenty to hook onto in the Colosseum. Pillars and stands galore, all of which provide a safe haven, a vantage point to launch less-lethal weapons from, and a place from which to attack Achilles from above.

 

Actually, it may indeed be harder. They're smaller with less of a cross-section to match. Much harder to see to retaliate against. Batman can toss several at a time in rapid succession, and they don't need to strike -- that alone will be plenty of a distraction for him to close in and finish the job. Besides, I'd love to see Achilles dodge or block a Batarang when he's been blinded by a gas/flash bomb.

 

Wait, when did Achilles dodge a bunch of arrows or thrown spears, exactly? I don't remember seeing that... and in fact, his manner of death suggests otherwise. Batman has nice reaction time himself, through sheer virtue of being an incredible martial artist in addition to being able to dodge the line of fire of automatic weapons.

[Guest skadoosh]

Now this is good debate. Thanks for the enthusiasm, guys! Im glad this fight got as much attention as it deserved. Keep it up!

[Guest force_echo]

What kind of grappling hook does Batman have? Because if its a regular one, this match is over in a couple seconds. A headshot with a grappling hook, even Batman's mini gauntlet hook, will most certainly knock Achilles out.

 

I like how people use aim dodging as a way to illustrate that the character isn't skilled. Folks, if aim dodging was easy, or even possible, then noone would get shot. The fact remains that the distance a guy has to move his finger to pull the trigger will always be many many times less than the distance the target would have to travel to get out of the line of fire.

[Guest skadoosh]

Good points, thanks dude.

[Guest Djgambrell]

Actually, I do think they'll make a difference, just not enough to give him a victory. Remember, none of Batman's gadgets are meant to be deadly, but every attack from Achilles will most likely have killing potential.

The actual weapons of that time were pitiful and aren't even capable of penetrating his suit. Bronze is too far own the line in weaponry.

[Guest skadoosh]

The actual weapons of that time were pitiful and aren't even capable of penetrating his suit. Bronze is too far own the line in weaponry.

 

Yet another good point. This has really sparked off a good debate.

[Guest Scar]

What kind of grappling hook does Batman have? Because if its a regular one, this match is over in a couple seconds. A headshot with a grappling hook, even Batman's mini gauntlet hook, will most certainly knock Achilles out.

 

I like how people use aim dodging as a way to illustrate that the character isn't skilled. Folks, if aim dodging was easy, or even possible, then noone would get shot. The fact remains that the distance a guy has to move his finger to pull the trigger will always be many many times less than the distance the target would have to travel to get out of the line of fire.

 

I like how you seem completely ignorant of the fact that a hoplite carries and knows how to properly use a shield.

[Guest skadoosh]

I like how you seem completely ignorant of the fact that a hoplite carries and knows how to properly use a shield.

 

Hmm, yeah, Batman isnt gonna be able to shoot his grapnel-gun past a well-used shield very easily.

[Guest force_echo]

I like how you seem completely ignorant of the fact that a hoplite carries and knows how to properly use a shield.

I like how you ignore the fact that there's no way Achilles will get his shield up in time from the time the grappling hook is fired to the point of impact. Achilles doesn't even know what a grappling hook is, forget that Batman has one. All he'll see is Batman raising his empty hand, why would he shield against that? There's no way he'll know whats coming.

[Z451]

Probably important to note that Bats could always use his grappling hook to tie up Achille's legs.

[Guest skadoosh]

Probably important to note that Bats could always use his grappling hook to tie up Achille's legs.

 

True. Although Achilles was very good at dodging things. Of course, the grapnel-gun shoots faster than the arrows and whatnot Achilles dodged, but he was still shown to be very fast, and has his big ol' shield. That, along with the fact that Batman almost definitely wouldnt just shoot the grapnel-gun at him, mean that Achilles top priority is not dodging the grapnel-gun.