Guest square pickle Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Heres my theory. Batman beats them all, because (like most of you said) hes the best all around. Its like UFC. The best all around wins 9/10 times. Just because one guy is a world class boxer, doesnt mean his opponet will try to box him... Same here. Batman know his former sidekicks strengths and he WILL NOT play into them. You think hes gonna humor Dick Grayson with a acrobatic fight? Or try to out archer Jason Todd? No, he will beat them all, because he already knows how to. Like someone stated earlier, Batman has already beaten Batman Beyond, so Im not sure why hes still even considered to beat Bruce. Bruce probibly knows how to shut Terry (and his suit) down incase he goes rouge anyway, so Batman Beyond would be wise to stay on Bruces good side. Batman > Everyone in the Bat Family. Thats why THEY are HIS sidekicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comic_book_fan Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The ONLY one who can come even close to beating Batman is Cassandra Cain, and even she is not as tough, experienced or intelligent as Batman.this guy pretty much sumed up what i was going to say .where terry has superior strength and speed bruce has made him look bad plenty of times .and as for azrael is stronger and faster but he moves akward in his suit and is unstable bruce could beat him without throwing a punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Heres my theory. Batman beats them all, because (like most of you said) hes the best all around. Its like UFC. The best all around wins 9/10 times. Just because one guy is a world class boxer, doesnt mean his opponet will try to box him... Same here. Batman know his former sidekicks strengths and he WILL NOT play into them. You think hes gonna humor Dick Grayson with a acrobatic fight? Or try to out archer Jason Todd? No, he will beat them all, because he already knows how to. Like someone stated earlier, Batman has already beaten Batman Beyond, so Im not sure why hes still even considered to beat Bruce. Bruce probibly knows how to shut Terry (and his suit) down incase he goes rouge anyway, so Batman Beyond would be wise to stay on Bruces good side. Batman > Everyone in the Bat Family. Thats why THEY are HIS sidekicks.Hold up now a sec. What's to stop Nightwing taking the fight to acrobatics, or Todd shooting Batman from afar, whether Batman wants to get into that kind of fight or not? What's Batman gonna do then? Ask them nicely to fight fairly with him? Also, regarding your Batman Beyond statement, two things: It's eighty-year-old Bruce from the future that knows how to shut Terry's suit down, not Bruce in his prime, which is the version being discussed here. And Bruce never beat Terry. Old Man Bruce managed to hold his own against Terry long enough to get him to overcome the brainwashing he'd been put through, nothing more. It was in issue 1 of the original Batman Beyond comic book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yeah... no. Maybe instead of looking at an obscure DC RPG and a fan-edited wiki, how about you look at the actual comics? Because what the comics say > what some RPG says. And, in the comics: Batman himself has stated that both Cassandra Cain and Dick Grayson are better than him in hand-to-hand fighting. Oracle has stated that Tim Drake is a better detective than Batman. Hell, even by looking at what they've accomplished in the comics, the above should be plain to see. But I can see why you're mixed up, since apparently you've been looking at an obscure, non-canon RPG instead of the actual comics. :/ Edit: Oh, and Cassandra Cain's superior combat abilities don't stem from her body reading technique. That's just a bonus she learned. It stems from the fact that Cain is a much better martial artist than Batman ever was. Also, you don't seem to be taking into account the fact that the rest of the Bats family are equipped with gadgets on par with Batman's at all times. And they know Batman jut as well as he knows then. Really? So if DC says Batman's the better fighter, they're lying?Because they approved the stats of the RPG to be accurate. And I'll believe them over you any day in terms of DC canon. What issue did Batman say this? Again, what issue? Why is Batman is regarded as the "World's Greatest Detective" if Tim is a better one, hm? Looking at what they've accomplished in the comics? I doubt Cain could beat Bane...or Deathstroke. So your point is invalid.How many times has Cain saved the world through her training? Okay how about Batman? Okay For someone who encourages people to read the comics, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable of the Bat family. None of the Bat Family carry the exact same equipment as Batman. How many other members carry plastic explosives, nerve toxins, batarangs, smoke bombs, a fingerprint kit, a cutting tool, a grappling gun, a re-breather, and a kryptonite ring in their utility belts? None. They might use some of the same stuff, but you won't all of the stuff in Batman's in any single other member's belt. You won't find plastic explosives in Dick Grayson's belt nor will you find nerve toxins in there either. Cassandra just has a few smoke and flash pellets with a grappling hook in her utility belt. So you sir, are wrong. Really? So Cassandra Cain and Red Hood have proven that they know how Bruce thinks? Because Grayson has. In Battle for the Cowl, Grayson proved to be close to the Bat's equal. Damien and Tim and Alfred stated he is the logical successor and the closest to Batman anyone has ever come to. Batman > Cain by miles (when you take Intelligence into the equation) Batman is slightly better than Grayson (Again, when you take Intelligence into the equation) So read the comics, guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hold up now a sec. What's to stop Nightwing taking the fight to acrobatics, or Todd shooting Batman from afar, whether Batman wants to get into that kind of fight or not? What's Batman gonna do then? Ask them nicely to fight fairly with him? Also, regarding your Batman Beyond statement, two things: It's eighty-year-old Bruce from the future that knows how to shut Terry's suit down, not Bruce in his prime, which is the version being discussed here. And Bruce never beat Terry. Old Man Bruce managed to hold his own against Terry long enough to get him to overcome the brainwashing he'd been put through, nothing more. It was in issue 1 of the original Batman Beyond comic book. Probably throw a smoke pellet or two, hide, and assess the situation...I thought you knew Batman... So old Batman > Batman in his prime? hm..interesting..oh wait. not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Really? So if DC says Batman's the better fighter, they're lying?Because they approved the stats of the RPG to be accurate. And I'll believe them over you any day in terms of DC canon.Do me a favor; find me a quote that says DC (as a company, not a single guy) accepts this RPG as canon. What issue did Batman say this? Again, what issue? Because Tim can't outsmart the Riddler. Why is Batman is regarded as the "World's Greatest Detective" if Tim is a better one, hm?I'm going to have to look back through my comics to find the exact issue, but I'm pretty sure it was during War Games. Looking at what they've accomplished in the comics? I doubt Cain could beat Bane...or Deathstroke. So your point is invalid.How many times has Cain saved the world through her training? Okay how about Batman? OkayYes, actually, Cain has beaten Deathstroke. Once again, I advise you read the comics before discussing this sort of thing. As for the "how many times has she saved the world" thing, it's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Batman gets put in scenarios where he saves the world by writers because he's the more popular hero, nothing more, nothing less. For someone who encourages people to read the comics, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable of the Bat family. None of the Bat Family carry the exact same equipment as Batman. How many other members carry plastic explosives, nerve toxins, batarangs, smoke bombs, a fingerprint kit, a cutting tool, a grappling gun, a re-breather, and a kryptonite ring in their utility belts? None. They might use some of the same stuff, but you won't all of the stuff in Batman's in any single other member's belt. You won't find plastic explosives in Dick Grayson's belt nor will you find nerve toxins in there either. Cassandra just has a few smoke and flash pellets with a grappling hook in her utility belt. So you sir, are wrong. Actually, both Nightwing and Red Robin carry the exact same equipment in their utility belts, short of the Kryptonite ring. Todd carries similar things, only his are fatal to anyone who gets hit by them. Also, you seriously think Batman will be using neurotoxins and plastic explosives against his former partners? No, he won't, and their costumes protect against that sort of thing anyway. No, I'm quite right. Really? So Cassandra Cain and Red Hood have proven that they know how Bruce thinks? Because Grayson has...Okay, and your point is? Anyway, they've both spent years working with Bruce. To say they don't know anything about how he thinks is absurd. "In Battle for the Cowl, Grayson proved to be close to the Bat's equal. Damien and Tim and Alfred stated he is the logical successor and the closest to Batman anyone has ever come to. Batman > Cain by miles (when you take Intelligence into the equation) Batman is slightly better than Grayson (Again, when you take Intelligence into the equation)" I actually agree with this. If Batman had the time to use his intelligence against Cain, he would beat her, but in a random fight, he wouldn't stand a chance. "So read the comics, guy." Oh I have. You're the one who's basing his opinion off of a role-playing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Probably throw a smoke pellet or two, hide, and assess the situation...I thought you knew Batman...Which would play him straight into Todd's game of long-ranged combat... So old Batman > Batman in his prime? hm..interesting..oh wait. not.I never said anything of the sort. He said that Batman could just shut the suit down, I refuted this by stating that this is present-day Bruce we're discussing, and since he hasn't even developed the future Batsuit yet, he won't know how to shut it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Do me a favor; find me a quote that says DC (as a company, not a single guy) accepts this RPG as canon. I'm going to have to look back through my comics to find the exact issue, but I'm pretty sure it was during War Games. Yes, actually, Cain has beaten Deathstroke. Once again, I advise you read the comics before discussing this sort of thing. As for the "how many times has she saved the world" thing, it's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Batman gets put in scenarios where he saves the world by writers because he's the more popular hero, nothing more, nothing less. Actually, both Nightwing and Red Robin carry the exact same equipment in their utility belts, short of the Kryptonite ring. Todd carries similar things, only his are fatal to anyone who gets hit by them. Also, you seriously think Batman will be using neurotoxins and plastic explosives against his former partners? No, he won't, and their costumes protect against that sort of thing anyway. No, I'm quite right. ..Okay, and your point is? Anyway, they've both spent years working with Bruce. To say they don't know anything about how he thinks is absurd. "In Battle for the Cowl, Grayson proved to be close to the Bat's equal. Damien and Tim and Alfred stated he is the logical successor and the closest to Batman anyone has ever come to. Batman > Cain by miles (when you take Intelligence into the equation) Batman is slightly better than Grayson (Again, when you take Intelligence into the equation)" I actually agree with this. If Batman had the time to use his intelligence against Cain, he would beat her, but in a random fight, he wouldn't stand a chance. "So read the comics, guy." Oh I have. You're the one who's basing his opinion off of a role-playing game. I never said they didn't know anything about how he thinks, but they don't know exactly how he thinks. Save for Grayson and Tim drake. :] In a random fight he wouldn't stand a chance? Um, I'm sure he would. In fact, I dare say he could take her out, and fast. Why? Because he helped train her, he's defeated her Mom, and he can disorient her effectively. No, I didn't. I based them off of Geoff John's approval of the stats. As I stated in an earlier post, I normally wouldn't believe a RPG is accurate, unless the DC writers say it can be considered accurate. And they did, so yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 I never said they didn't know anything about how he thinks, but they don't know exactly how he thinks. Save for Grayson and Tim drake. :]Oh, I misunderstood then. My bad. In a random fight he wouldn't stand a chance? Um, I'm sure he would. In fact, I dare say he could take her out, and fast. Why? Because he helped train her, he's defeated her Mom, and he can disorient her effectively.Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the first time Cassandra beat Shiva, didn't Batman say something along the lines of "Even I've never beaten Shiva"? Of course, that coulda been retconned. No, I didn't. I based them off of Geoff John's approval of the stats. As I stated in an earlier post, I normally wouldn't believe a RPG is accurate, unless the DC writers say it can be considered accurate. And they did, so yeah. Eh, I'm just sayin', I wouldn't put too much faith in those stats. The Marvel power grids are writert-approved, and a lot of those... suck, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Which would play him straight into Todd's game of long-ranged combat... How's he gonna shoot what he can't see? Besides, Batman can undoubtedly sneak up on Red Hood without trying too hard. Bruce in his prime would struggle with Terry, but Terry's brilliance isn't on par with Batman.With prep Bruce wins, but Terry would really tear Bruce up without it. It'd be close, but I'd still pull for Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 How's he gonna shoot what he can't see? Besides, Batman can undoubtedly sneak up on Red Hood without trying too hard.True. Though, as I recall, Todd's helmet does have infrared vision. Should help him see through smoke. Probably wouldn't help against a flashbang though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Oh, I misunderstood then. My bad. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the first time Cassandra beat Shiva, didn't Batman say something along the lines of "Even I've never beaten Shiva"? Of course, that coulda been retconned. Eh, I'm just sayin', I wouldn't put too much faith in those stats. The Marvel power grids are writert-approved, and a lot of those... suck, to say the least. Cassandra and Batman have both defeated Shiva. They both only used close combat too (If I'm not mistaken) So I think it's safe to say Cassandra is roughly the same (Arguably) as Batman in combat. The difference? Batman is much more versatile. Without prep time, he could disorient her or do whatever he wanted with his gadgets and then switch to hand to hand. Since they're almost equals normally, if Cain's disoriented she stands no chance. Even if she's not Bruce can outsmart her. That's why I give the edge to him. And I'm aware of Marvel's dreadful power grids.. They do suck. Lots. Regardless, the stats in the DC RPG are a lot more complex. They go into detail about everything. Insight, Agility, Dexterity, Stealth, Investigation, vehicle operations, combat defense vs projectiles, combat defense vs close attacks, combat defense vs explosions, physical accuracy, physical damage, etc. I listen to a lot of pod cast and read articles about the writers of DC and they are very fond of the portrayals of the character's in the rpg. So it's debatable. I just don't see Batman losing to Cain either way nor do I see her beating Grayson with ease. (Although Grayson would be wise to stay on her good side) So I must, respectfully disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Cassandra and Batman have both defeated Shiva. They both only used close combat too (If I'm not mistaken) So I think it's safe to say Cassandra is roughly the same (Arguably) as Batman in combat. The difference? Batman is much more versatile. Without prep time, he could disorient her or do whatever he wanted with his gadgets and then switch to hand to hand. Since they're almost equals normally, if Cain's disoriented she stands no chance. Even if she's not Bruce can outsmart her. That's why I give the edge to him. And I'm aware of Marvel's dreadful power grids.. They do suck. Lots. Regardless, the stats in the DC RPG are a lot more complex. They go into detail about everything. Insight, Agility, Dexterity, Stealth, Investigation, vehicle operations, combat defense vs projectiles, combat defense vs close attacks, combat defense vs explosions, physical accuracy, physical damage, etc. I listen to a lot of pod cast and read articles about the writers of DC and they are very fond of the portrayals of the character's in the rpg. So it's debatable. I just don't see Batman losing to Cain either way nor do I see her beating Grayson with ease. (Although Grayson would be wise to stay on her good side) So I must, respectfully disagree with you. Fair enough then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Fair enough then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Trying to get my post-per-day ratio up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVP vs The Terminator Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Trying to get my post-per-day ratio up.Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest square pickle Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hold up now a sec. What's to stop Nightwing taking the fight to acrobatics, or Todd shooting Batman from afar, whether Batman wants to get into that kind of fight or not? What's Batman gonna do then? Ask them nicely to fight fairly with him? Also, regarding your Batman Beyond statement, two things: It's eighty-year-old Bruce from the future that knows how to shut Terry's suit down, not Bruce in his prime, which is the version being discussed here. And Bruce never beat Terry. Old Man Bruce managed to hold his own against Terry long enough to get him to overcome the brainwashing he'd been put through, nothing more. It was in issue 1 of the original Batman Beyond comic book.If old man Bruce held his own against Terry, so Id say Bruce in his prime takes Terry out. Plus Bruce tends to use codes that connect through-out time, so he's always prepared. The codes probibly the death date of his parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If old man Bruce held his own against Terry, so Id say Bruce in his prime takes Terry out. Plus Bruce tends to use codes that connect through-out time, so he's always prepared. The codes probibly the death date of his parents. I think he changed them now to where they are the wedding date of his parents, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest force_echo Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yeah, I distinctly remember the comic where Batman beats Lady Shiva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spytheman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Really? So if DC says Batman's the better fighter, they're lying?Because they approved the stats of the RPG to be accurate. And I'll believe them over you any day in terms of DC canon. What issue did Batman say this? Again, what issue? Why is Batman is regarded as the "World's Greatest Detective" if Tim is a better one, hm? Looking at what they've accomplished in the comics? I doubt Cain could beat Bane...or Deathstroke. So your point is invalid.How many times has Cain saved the world through her training? Okay how about Batman? Okay For someone who encourages people to read the comics, you don't seem to be very knowledgeable of the Bat family. None of the Bat Family carry the exact same equipment as Batman. How many other members carry plastic explosives, nerve toxins, batarangs, smoke bombs, a fingerprint kit, a cutting tool, a grappling gun, a re-breather, and a kryptonite ring in their utility belts? None. They might use some of the same stuff, but you won't all of the stuff in Batman's in any single other member's belt. You won't find plastic explosives in Dick Grayson's belt nor will you find nerve toxins in there either. Cassandra just has a few smoke and flash pellets with a grappling hook in her utility belt. So you sir, are wrong. Really? So Cassandra Cain and Red Hood have proven that they know how Bruce thinks? Because Grayson has. In Battle for the Cowl, Grayson proved to be close to the Bat's equal. Damien and Tim and Alfred stated he is the logical successor and the closest to Batman anyone has ever come to. Batman > Cain by miles (when you take Intelligence into the equation) Batman is slightly better than Grayson (Again, when you take Intelligence into the equation) So read the comics, guy.don't mean to rain on your parade... but Batman has never beaten Deathstroke by himself, while Cain has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spytheman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Batman vs Dick Grayson (Nightwing) Ok... here's why Batman wins here. I think we can all agree that Batman is the stronger of the two. And for skill, whatever advantage Grayson may have is so miniscule it shouldn't even matter. Now Grayson has one big advantage over Brucie; agility. He'll be jumping around, flipping and twisting and turning, avoiding all of Batmans hits, making any advantages Bats has mute. HOWEVER, Batman being Batman will know this. So, instead, he'll play it smart. He'll toy around with Dick for a bit, throwing feignts, using lots of gadgets, etc, to try and keep Nightwing on the defensive. Seeing as ho well Bruce knows Dick, this shouldn't be hard. So Dick is running around, dodging all hits, and then before you know it... he starts panting. He's getting tired, but Batman isn't giving him a chance. Batarang after batarang, tazer shots, explosives, it's gadgets galore and Nightwing can't catch a break. Eventually, he starts to slow, and thats when Batman goes in for the kill. When Dick is to tired to use his speed to his advantage, that's when Batman beats him down. Batman vs Jason Todd (Red Hood) Not to difficult here. Batman starts by taunting Jason, getting him mad ya know. Make him lose his cool. Then, when Jason takes out the big guns, it's smoke bomb time and Batman retreats into the cover of smoke. Jason, being pissed, won't hesitate to activate his infrared vision. Big mistake, as a flash bang later, and Jason can't see for sh*t. Angry and in disarray, Jason never even saw the batarang that took away his gun coming, nor did he see the boot to the face. Batman vs Tim Drake (Red Robin) Nothing to say here. Batman is stronger, more skilled, and probably faster. Tim's intellect won't help him out. Batman vs Barbara Gordon (Batgirl) Same as above. Batman vs Cassandra Cain (Black Bat) Now Bruce is in for a challenge. But again, if he sticks to his strengths, he can win. He can try to simply over power Cain with his strength, which he is capable of doing. He can just keep his distance and gadget her into oblivion. He can go the ninja route and use a smoke bomb to escape, then sneak up on her. OR he can do all of this. Bruce isn't gonna humor Cain and go in for a H2H fight. He'll play to his strengths, and thats how he wins. Batman vs Stephanie Brown (Batgirl) AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh thats a good one! Tehe... wait, your serious? Batman vs Kate Kane (Batwoman) See Tim and Barbara Batman vs Jean-Paul Valley (Azrael) This... idk. Bruce beat Azrael before, but that was only by getting him to take his armor off. Azrael won't fall for the same trick twice... I'm not sure honestly who wins here. Batman vs Terry McGinnis (Batman) Terry. No ifs ands or buts. Batman loses to Deathstroke, whom Terry is stronger, faster, and more skilled then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darxeth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 don't mean to rain on your parade... but Batman has never beaten Deathstroke by himself, while Cain has. Actually, no. He led her to believe she had defeated him so he could let his daughter (Who isn't as good as he is) fight her as a test. see the link: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/19539...athstroke26.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spytheman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Actually, no. He led her to believe she had defeated him so he could let his daughter (Who isn't as good as he is) fight her as a test. see the link: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/19539...athstroke26.jpgWell thats egg on my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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