Guest sirmethos Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I read all the comics, you guys are making false claims 1. The Dark Phoenix is nt human as you say, but has human limitations? Yeah that is all wrong, read the comics again guys 2. She is pure energy/ telekinetic being that thinks she is bound to a human body, again how is she limited to any human limitations in fact that probably made her stronger she it now knows human emotion such as anger 3. If you read the comics watched the shows, she moves beyond light, did she not teleport herself and others to Earth from space? She flew past a shiar ship and plunge into a sun? Has she not opened portals? 4. And if everyone is Ftl but not her, how does that make them win? Se is still capable of stopping them telekinetically and would have no shot The burden of proof is on us? Yet you are the ones claiming that since some is Ftl they win automatically? Not so, not even close in this fight 1. Again, the Dark Phoenix has a purely human body(a perfect copy of Jean Grey's body). 2. She is not a pure energy being, she has a human body(a copy of Jean Grey's body). That is why she went mad and became the Dark Phoenix in the first place. 3. Again, moving at faster than light speeds, from point A to point B, =/= reacting at speeds faster than light. 4. She can't stop them if she can't react fast enough(i.e. they can hit her before she uses her powers). 5. Are you purposely trying to be obtuse, or does it come natural? Let me put it like this, if someone pointing a flashlight at you, turns the flashlight on, can you react fast enough to get your hands up, or move out of the way, before the light from the flashlight hits you? The answer to that is, No, you can't, because you are not capable of reacting that fast. The same is the case here. If the 3(or 4) people move, faster than light(or even close to it), towards her, then she won't be able to raise a shield, or move out of the way to avoid being hit. Why? Because she is not capable of reacting that fast. You claim that she can react that fast, but so far you have failed to provide any proof to back up your claim. That said, you have about 26.5 hours left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bladephyre Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Nobody said that because they are FTL they win automatically. If you actually read what I posted I showed exactly how they can win and how they can lose. They honestly have more of a chance to lose than to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hayesmeister5651 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 How many more times will sirmethos repeat himself until they get it. Any bets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Ok, I've just looked through The X-Men #105. 6.in x-men 105 the shiar are chaseing her in as fast as they can without going into hyperspace the (the speed of light) and she leavs them sitting. And you must have gotten the issue wrong, 'cos there are no Shi'ar chasing her in that particular issue. #105 is the issue where she fights Firelord, and where the X-men jump through the portal and end up in the Shi'ar Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickthekid Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I'm just going to say that the Fury has the best chance against Dark Phoenix and has a good chance in doing so ala Mad Jim Jaspers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dr. Pymp(mex) Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 well actually Sirmethos you are not entirely correct. I will put this in your way, as so we cannot say we are not on the same page. you said: Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey, ok I am with you on that, but Dark Phoenix has never been stated to create life, so how has she made a perfect human body? Unless wait, it wasn't and it was just a telekinetic being made to look human, or it was Dark Phoenix thinking she was still in Jean's Body, or it was Jean's mind still thinking it was not in the cocoon.I am still looking to see where it shows her being limited to a human physically. I understand that she would place those limits on herself, but I fail to see her doing that to get killed on purpose. Going by the show, 90's cartoon I mean (and I will go into the comics after) she took on everyone and only waited because she relished in stalling (PIS or comic mechanics as you put it) Gladiator was made a fool instantly, sun was made a fool instantly, and the fact that she can survive the core of a sun being destroyed, she can easily, I repeat easily kill everyone on this list. Not only do you say she loses to most everyone one on one, you say easily, as a semi comic fan, I figured you would know that is bullocks, and would at least make an argument that is valid. (It is not valid to pick out one small and insignificant thing to say she loses, the fact that of all your comments you focus on her being human and thus limited to human capabilities, yet you say she will win easily if she does use her powers? Well you assume this fight is her standing around and everyone already pouncing on her? This fight could be 1 million miles away and she would still win, if they all know what's happening she wins, if she doesn't she wins. Simple as that. Oh and I like how you have Hayes as your personal lackey ahahaha I guess I know you are his leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 -snip- -sigh- Are you being purposely obtuse, or does it come natural? "you said: Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey, ok I am with you on that, but Dark Phoenix has never been stated to create life, so how has she made a perfect human body? Unless wait, it wasn't and it was just a telekinetic being made to look human, or it was Dark Phoenix thinking she was still in Jean's Body, or it was Jean's mind still thinking it was not in the cocoon." Dark Phoenix didn't create the human body, the Phoenix Force did. The Phoenix Force is an extremely powerful cosmic entity. Dark Phoenix is the Phoenix Force in a human(Jean Grey's) body, gone mad. "I am still looking to see where it shows her being limited to a human physically." Try actually reading the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga. The Dark Phoenix = The Phoenix Force in a human body. Being in a human body, it is limited by the capabilities of that body. "Gladiator was made a fool instantly, sun was made a fool instantly, and the fact that she can survive the core of a sun being destroyed, she can easily, I repeat easily kill everyone on this list." When the sun was destroyed, she already had her telekinetic shield in place. "Not only do you say she loses to most everyone one on one, you say easily, as a semi comic fan, I figured you would know that is bullocks, and would at least make an argument that is valid. (It is not valid to pick out one small and insignificant thing to say she loses, the fact that of all your comments you focus on her being human and thus limited to human capabilities, yet you say she will win easily if she does use her powers? Well you assume this fight is her standing around and everyone already pouncing on her? This fight could be 1 million miles away and she would still win, if they all know what's happening she wins, if she doesn't she wins. Simple as that." Yes, she could lose to most of them(4 of them to be precise), easily. Why? Because her speed and reflexes are at normal human levels, and 4 of the people on the team are FTL and capable of blitzing her before she has a chance to use her powers. The OP asks "Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?". And the answer is: Yes, they can. If they blitz her and take advantage of the fact that she has normal human reflexes. If she has a chance to use her powers, then she is powerful enough to annihilate most of the team in seconds. But the fact that her speed and, more importantly, reflexes, are at normal human levels, means that Yes, the team would be able to beat her. Would they beat her in every scenario? Hell no. Can they beat her? Yes, if they take advantage of her weakness(normal human reflexes) and blitz her. Aka. the answer to the OP question(as I've been saying from the beginning), is Yes. Edit: Roughly 16 hours left, to provide proof of your claim that Dark Phoenix can react at speeds faster than light. If no evidence is given, then I'll(as already mentioned) consider the argument conceded. If your claim is true, then it should be easy to find proof of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shellsbut Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 1. Being able to enter hyperspace does not necessarily mean that you are able to move faster than light. A good example of this is Slipstream, who has the power to open a Hyperspace portal, to travel between any two points in the universe. He can enter Hyperspace, but he can neither Move, nor React at faster than light speeds. 2. Being able to travel faster than light, from point A to point B, does not mean you can react at speeds faster than light. Graviton is a good example of this. 3. You're still making claims without providing proof. 27 hours left. You just dont get it. Without the influence of Jean holding the power back this fight lasts 2 seconds and Dark Phoenix destroys them all. Again twit read up and get over the Jean Grey aspect. 27 hours left?I need 1 minute to prove you wrong. Are you intentionally stupid? With a range of powers like below none of them saves the Fury could even hurt her. With her stats clearly displayed on every recognized Marvel sites, hands down she wins and is capable of almost anything. The Phoenix Force has all these powers Virtually omnipotent Matter and energy manipulation Life force manipulation Cosmic awareness Prescience Dark Phoenix has all these powers she is not like others that have had the Phoenix Force lose its and only retain a small fraction of the power. She had all the power they were one bieng with Jean sometimes fighting for control surpressing the power. HMMM speed? http://marvel.com/images/gallery/story/109...s_2/image/85990 Even Marvel editors say she moves faster then light, so get a life. You are wrong. IF MARVEL Staff/creators and so on clearly state it then "IT" is as so. So let me guess, in your little word the company that owns the rights and has final word is wrong and you are now some how an authority above them? Should we alert the press and let them know sirmethos is going to rewrite the company the way he wants it because he lost an argument. Marvel isnt in charge now? You are atwit, i side with Marvel you argument is now mute. Awe you lose. Now go make me a sandwich. Oh wait you might have another moronic response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shellsbut Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Oh and later card sets have light speed as only level 6, 7 goes beyond that to instantaneous/teleport anywhere in the universe any time you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hayesmeister5651 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 -sigh- Are you being purposely obtuse, or does it come natural? Best rumble ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bladephyre Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You just dont get it. Without the influence of Jean holding the power back this fight lasts 2 seconds and Dark Phoenix destroys them all. Again twit read up and get over the Jean Grey aspect. 27 hours left?I need 1 minute to prove you wrong. Are you intentionally stupid? With a range of powers like below none of them saves the Fury could even hurt her. With her stats clearly displayed on every recognized Marvel sites, hands down she wins and is capable of almost anything. The Phoenix Force has all these powers Virtually omnipotent Matter and energy manipulation Life force manipulation Cosmic awareness Prescience Dark Phoenix has all these powers she is not like others that have had the Phoenix Force lose its and only retain a small fraction of the power. She had all the power they were one bieng with Jean sometimes fighting for control surpressing the power. HMMM speed? http://marvel.com/images/gallery/story/109...s_2/image/85990 Even Marvel editors say she moves faster then light, so get a life. You are wrong. IF MARVEL Staff/creators and so on clearly state it then "IT" is as so. So let me guess, in your little word the company that owns the rights and has final word is wrong and you are now some how an authority above them? Should we alert the press and let them know sirmethos is going to rewrite the company the way he wants it because he lost an argument. Marvel isnt in charge now? You are atwit, i side with Marvel you argument is now mute. Awe you lose. Now go make me a sandwich. Oh wait you might have another moronic response. You still do not get the idea of the difference between movement speed and reflex speed. Nobody has said that Dark Phoenix can not win, most of us have said she would destroy them in seconds, unless they hit her before she can react. The point is, would they? As I already said but seem to have to repeat: If they catch her before she gets her shields up, they win, if not they lose. That simple. More than likely they will lose, because if she is in space, which is most likely she would already have it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indolent Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 ...See the Agility in that image of yours? That would be her reflexes. No one's debating her capability of moving at the speed of light or beyond, whatever the method may be. They're debating her reflexes. Reflexes =/= Traveling Speed. On the other hand, those on the other team have reflexes FAR SUPERIOR to hers. And their speed on top of that reflex is what's affording them a chance to defeat her... hence what they're talking about. Seriously, pull your head out of your ass. -.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigballerju Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Best rumble ever. Your right Hayes this is entertaining to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hayesmeister5651 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Your right Hayes this is entertaining to watch.And it keeps getting better.Seriously, pull your head out of your ass. -.-I have lol'd more at this thread then any other in a while. I honestly don't think I have seen a group of people having such a hard time understanding such a simple aspect of a fight. It's staggering really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 -snip- -sigh- "The Phoenix Force has all these powers Virtually omnipotent Matter and energy manipulation Life force manipulation Cosmic awareness Prescience" Very true. But you still seem to have trouble grasping it. Dark Phoenix does not have the full power of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is one of the most powerful entities in the Marvel Multiverse. In comparison, Dark Phoenix(in terms of raw power), is only about as powerful as a starving Galactus(slightly less in fact). "HMMM speed? http://marvel.com/images/gallery/story/109...s_2/image/85990" Congratulations, you have managed to prove that she can move from point A to point B, at speeds considerably faster than light. I also said she could do that though. You still haven't proved that she is capable of reacting at faster than light speeds, which is what is needed for her to win every time. For the slow readers, that means I'm still waiting for proof. "Even Marvel editors say she moves faster then light, so get a life. You are wrong. IF MARVEL Staff/creators and so on clearly state it then "IT" is as so. So let me guess, in your little word the company that owns the rights and has final word is wrong and you are now some how an authority above them? Should we alert the press and let them know sirmethos is going to rewrite the company the way he wants it because he lost an argument. Marvel isnt in charge now? " I say that she can move faster than light as well. She is capable of moving from point A to point B almost instantly(by creating Star Portals), but that still doesn't make her capable of reacting at those speeds. The Marvel editors has never said anything about her reflexes. "You are atwit, i side with Marvel you argument is now mute." Well, you always side with Marvel. You're a Marvel fanboy and is firmly lodged on Marvel's collective ****'s, which renders your argument moot. Come back when you actually have some objective arguments. Edit: 4.5 hours left to prove that Dark Phoenix can react at faster than light speeds. If evidence has not come up, then I'll consider the argument conceded. Edit 2: I just remembered. According to Shellsbut's own words in an earlier debate, the team is able to beat Dark Phoenix every time, since they have Sentry on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dr. Pymp(mex) Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Nobody said that because they are FTL they win automatically. If you actually read what I posted I showed exactly how they can win and how they can lose. They honestly have more of a chance to lose than to win. I do read, but you guys keep saying things that are false. If you read, you guys say that since they are Ftl they can speed blitz her, well even if that was true, they wouldn't hold a candle to her. Her powers are too much, you guys are just using one little thing to make it so you seem right. Sirmethos keeps asking for evidence knowing very well that tere are no scans of her having Ftl reflexes, since in the books he only fought the xmen and shiar. Another reason why you guys are wrong, her telekinesis and telepathy are on a level beyond that. She can sense people light years away so no it wouldn't be easy for anyone o do anything except lose. I think you guys are confused with Jean and Jean with the Phoenix Force Powers I think you guys are funny trying to point out one little featthat she hasn't shown for obvious reasons to mark her for a lossEven you guys say she would win, well what makes you think that she wouldn't just go all out. Her max is beyond everyone's. Including her speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 -snip- "I do read, but you guys keep saying things that are false." Please point at just a single thing I have said, that is false. "If you read, you guys say that since they are Ftl they can speed blitz her, well even if that was true, they wouldn't hold a candle to her." Yes, they can blitz her, since her reflexes are not fast enough to react to that. As I have said(several times now), being FTL, they can hit her before she has a chance to use her powers, and without using her powers, she would get hit(and go *splat) just like any normal human. You are correct though, that if she actually uses her powers, she would win(unless you are one of the few people that believes what Shellsbut says, then Sentry could solo her, and the team wins every time). "Her powers are too much, you guys are just using one little thing to make it so you seem right." Her powers are too much, that much is true, but only if she actually uses them. And I'm not "using one little thing to make it so I seem right", I am pointing out one little weakness that she has(normal human reflexes and durability), and that weakness means I am right. Unless you have proof otherwise of course. "Sirmethos keeps asking for evidence knowing very well that tere are no scans of her having Ftl reflexes, since in the books he only fought the xmen and shiar." No, I don't know that. It's been quite a while since I've read the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga, and there are a number of the Shi'ar that are capable of FTL speeds, so for all I know, there could be evidence to support your claim. You would be stupid at least, to make a claim without being able to back it up with proof. "Another reason why you guys are wrong, her telekinesis and telepathy are on a level beyond that. She can sense people light years away so no it wouldn't be easy for anyone o do anything except lose. " -sigh- It doesn't matter if she can sense them, if she can't react fast enough to protect herself when she gets hit. "I think you guys are confused with Jean and Jean with the Phoenix Force Powers" Not so much. In fact, I've said several times that "Jean Grey is not Dark Phoenix". "I think you guys are funny trying to point out one little featthat she hasn't shown for obvious reasons to mark her for a loss" That much is true. From the very beginning of this debate, I've been saying that the team are capable of beating her, because of that 1 little weakness(normal human reflexes and durability). But that is simply because it's the truth. "Even you guys say she would win, well what makes you think that she wouldn't just go all out. Her max is beyond everyone's. Including her speed" Again, true. But her reflexes are not, which is what makes the team capable of beating her(as I have said several times at this point). That said, I'm still waiting for proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bladephyre Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I do read, but you guys keep saying things that are false. If you read, you guys say that since they are Ftl they can speed blitz her, well even if that was true, they wouldn't hold a candle to her. Her powers are too much, you guys are just using one little thing to make it so you seem right. Sirmethos keeps asking for evidence knowing very well that tere are no scans of her having Ftl reflexes, since in the books he only fought the xmen and shiar. Another reason why you guys are wrong, her telekinesis and telepathy are on a level beyond that. She can sense people light years away so no it wouldn't be easy for anyone o do anything except lose. I think you guys are confused with Jean and Jean with the Phoenix Force Powers I think you guys are funny trying to point out one little featthat she hasn't shown for obvious reasons to mark her for a lossEven you guys say she would win, well what makes you think that she wouldn't just go all out. Her max is beyond everyone's. Including her speed All those powers only help if you get to use them first. The point being they have a chance, albeit small, to take her out before she gets a chance to use them. Under normal conditions, without having a telekinetic shield up, Dark Phoenix has the same durability as an in shape human. It is that physical body that can be take out, not the Phoenix Force. Let me give you an example. Quicksilver is standing in front of Molecule Man, we all know that Molecule man could blink him into a splatter, and nothing he could do about it. However, Quicksilver is plenty fast enough to KO him before he pulls that off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badpierce Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I would think the question is why would she have her shields down? If they know she is dangerous enough to speed blitz going into this battle, would she not know how dangerous they are from the start also? Could they if her shields where down or if she was a sleep as someone said? Sure. He'll, they punisher could sniper her when she wasn't paying attention with that logic. That said, the question is can this team win? Yes it can. Just not very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hayesmeister5651 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 That said, the question is can this team win? Yes it can. Just not very likely.Right, which has been stated. Bladephyre and Sirmethos are just trying to explain a very basic concept of the fight to pymp and shellsbut. Fact is she has the reaction speed of someone who is peak human. That is being generous. Someone as fast as Midnighter could KO her before she reacts. This is of course, her not being aware that they are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirmethos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well, the deadline I set for providing evidence is up. And I still haven't seen any proof to back up the claim of Dark Phoenix being able to react at faster than light speeds. Just to be nice, I'll give an extension of 6 hours. If no proof has been given at that point, I'll consider the argument conceded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pseudonym Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Honestly the best thread I have ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shellsbut Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well, the deadline I set for providing evidence is up. And I still haven't seen any proof to back up the claim of Dark Phoenix being able to react at faster than light speeds. Just to be nice, I'll give an extension of 6 hours. If no proof has been given at that point, I'll consider the argument conceded. Clearly you are to dumb to read as MArvel places her above light speed in in that catagory. Im sorry you lack the abilitiy to read/understand english. Anyone can beat anyone in comics that is the nature of comics but all out they lose. Seriusly read the post she moves light sped or afster. How slow can you be it is right there stated by MArvel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shellsbut Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Clearly you are to dumb to read as MArvel places her above light speed in in that catagory. Im sorry you lack the abilitiy to read/understand english. Anyone can beat anyone in comics that is the nature of comics but all out they lose. Seriusly read the post she moves light sped or afster. How slow can you be it is right there stated by MArvel. I proved she is lightspeed or faster you have only your opinion I have MArvel facts. OHHH wait i forgot you think you are above MArvel editors when it comes to know how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pseudonym Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You're supposed to be talking to friends about things you like. How did you get so angry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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