Batman vs Goku

[Nesh]

Oh seriously he said no powers. Flight, super speed, blasts capable of leveling planets, super-strength, and more are all powers.

 

But Goku has trained under gravity that would give him that stregth and speed beyond humn, survivved things as a baby that would kill a human, you'd have to change his body fundemtally to get him to Human levels and just tossing him into a battle lie that where is body is oddly slow and suggish and wek isn't fair to hi. Lie I said, does he have time to get used to that body?

[Guest bigballerju]

Oh seriously I think it would be obvious that both are on equal terms physically.

[Nesh]

Oh seriously I think it would be obvious that both are on equal terms physically.

 

 

But Gou has no expience with that level of physicallity. Even as a baby he was stronger than humans, With no prep he's not going to now what his body can and can't do now? How is that fair to Goku?

[Guest sirmethos]

But Goku has trained under gravity that would give him that stregth and speed beyond humn, survivved things as a baby that would kill a human, you'd have to change his body fundemtally to get him to Human levels and just tossing him into a battle lie that where is body is oddly slow and suggish and wek isn't fair to hi. Lie I said, does he have time to get used to that body?

 

Actually, there is no indication of his body being superior to that of humans.

 

Saiyans survive the higher G on their homeplanet, not by being physically superior, but by having the inborn ability to manipulate Ki(unlike most humans who have to work hard to learn it), and being born with higher Ki than humans.

 

The training under heavy G, is also possible due to his body being enhanced by his Ki, rather than his body being fundamentally superior.

 

You're right about Goku needing to get used to being weaker though, since the DBZ fighters are always using their Ki to a certain point, unless they are completely suppressing it(which I can't remember them doing, though my memory might be a bit off on that).

 

 

 

But I think it's safe to assume that Goku has been given time to adjust to human levels, since the entire point of the scenario was to make the match physically even, rather than giving either of them an edge.

[Nesh]

Actually, there is no indication of his body being superior to that of humans.

 

Saiyans survive the higher G on their homeplanet, not by being physically superior, but by having the inborn ability to manipulate Ki(unlike most humans who have to work hard to learn it), and being born with higher Ki than humans.

 

The training under heavy G, is also possible due to his body being enhanced by his Ki, rather than his body being fundamentally superior.

 

You're right about Goku needing to get used to being weaker though, since the DBZ fighters are always using their Ki to a certain point, unless they are completely suppressing it(which I can't remember them doing, though my memory might be a bit off on that).

 

 

 

But I think it's safe to assume that Goku has been given time to adjust to human levels, since the entire point of the scenario was to make the match physically even, rather than giving either of them an edge.

Except the scenario says no prep and getting used to fighting at the level a normal Human would could be considered prep for Goku.

[Guest sirmethos]

Except the scenario says no prep and getting used to fighting at the level a normal Human would could be considered prep for Goku.

 

-sigh-

 

I'm not sure if you're being petulant, or if you're just obtuse.

 

 

The entire point of the scenario is to make it even for the two fighters, making it a contest of pure combat/martial arts skills.

 

Everyone knows that Goku has superhuman Powers, due to his Ki level. Hence "no powers".

 

Likewise, everyone know that Batman can overcome absolutely ridiculous odds by use of prep. time. thus "no prep."

 

 

 

Now, the entire point of the match, is to find out who has the superior martial arts/combat skills.

 

So far I(and others) have been saying that Batman is the superior fighter/martial artist of the two, while others(yourself included until you started on the ridiculous claim that Goku's Ki abilities were not powers) claim that Goku is the superior fighter/martial artist.

 

 

To the best of my knowledge(though my memory could be faulty), every single opponent Goku has defeated, has been through superior Power(either strength and speed, or more powerful Ki attacks), rather than superior skill. But if any of you(Goku's supporters) have any evidence to the contrary, I'm more than willing to be convinced.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

They are able to survive because they are stronger than humans. If gravity were more here we would die, and but if we evolved to resist it and then place that man in regular earth he would be stronger even without ki. So take away his ki and you have a naturally stronger person overall. Even if I concede and say goku is less skilled he would still have an edge but saying gokuis just great fighterand not an martial artist, is aplaullaing

[Guest bigballerju]

What Martial Art style has Goku mastered? When you can answer that question and provide evidence then you can say Goku is a Martial Artist on Batman's level.

[Nesh]

-sigh-

 

I'm not sure if you're being petulant, or if you're just obtuse.

 

 

The entire point of the scenario is to make it even for the two fighters, making it a contest of pure combat/martial arts skills.

 

Everyone knows that Goku has superhuman Powers, due to his Ki level. Hence "no powers".

 

Likewise, everyone know that Batman can overcome absolutely ridiculous odds by use of prep. time. thus "no prep."

 

 

 

Now, the entire point of the match, is to find out who has the superior martial arts/combat skills.

 

So far I(and others) have been saying that Batman is the superior fighter/martial artist of the two, while others(yourself included until you started on the ridiculous claim that Goku's Ki abilities were not powers) claim that Goku is the superior fighter/martial artist.

 

 

To the best of my knowledge(though my memory could be faulty), every single opponent Goku has defeated, has been through superior Power(either strength and speed, or more powerful Ki attacks), rather than superior skill. But if any of you(Goku's supporters) have any evidence to the contrary, I'm more than willing to be convinced.

I'm not trying to be petulant or obtuse. I'm pointing out a flaw in the scenario. It doesn't say Gou gets prep and Bruce doesn't it says no prep. At normal Human levels for both Batman does win, and since Goku won't now his own body it'll be a stomp in Batman's favor. The only time I was openly being sarcastic about specific intrepetations was when I said they couldn't use their legs because Shockwave said only their fists.

[Guest bigballerju]

You mean to tell me you can't pretend Goku for this match Goku is use to fighting at human levels and that its not a problem for him?

[Guest Darksaiyajin345]

The feat of killing General Blue, would be far more impressive if it wasn't invalid for the purpose of this thread, since it was done using Ki to strengthen himself(and his tongue).

 

Likewise for Roshi's paralyzing Man Wolf(without the tongue).

Sorry late on this yeah it had nothing to do with Ki most feats pre-Z dont you gotta remember pre-Z they didnt have the vast sums of ki to wast on things and needed to preserve it this is shown best when Goku opts out of a kamehameha against Tenshinhan since 1 would have left him at a severe disadvantage and no one has the skill in controlling ki (Outside of Kami,PoPo and muten Roshi) to up there stats hell they didnt even know how to shot fodder ki blast and some didnt even know how to fly. (Till the Piccolo jr saga)

 

Any specific examples? While I do have all of the manga a few feet away from me, I can't really be arsed looking through all of them. If you can give specific examples(preferably which issue of the manga to look in), then I'd have no trouble looking them up.

Alright i will name a few

While not really a show of skill it is a show of tactics is Goku switching to a animalistic style to catch someone as skilled as Muten Roshi of guard more of a show of battle wits then overall skill.

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/dragon-ball/48/p-12

Back to the pressure point once again nothing to do with ki.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-11/dra...hapter-119.html

Muten Roshi also shows the ability to hypnotize people.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-13/dra...hapter-119.html

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-13/dra...hapter-119.html

 

There are more i'll get later but im super lazy and don't feel like sifting through these scans and my manga at 2:30 am

Actually, there is no indication of his body being superior to that of humans.

 

Saiyans survive the higher G on their homeplanet, not by being physically superior, but by having the inborn ability to manipulate Ki(unlike most humans who have to work hard to learn it), and being born with higher Ki than humans.

While they do have the overall better ability to manipulate Ki and are born with higher Ki than humans. That doesnt mean anything baby Goku had a power level of 2 i think and he was crying and flailing around just fine because he was physicaly able to even a average human has a power level of 5 and they would be crushed so even if we assume baby Goku could manipulate his energy (All 2 of it) he still shouldnt be able to since even Goku with a power level of 350 (Weighted clothes on) who had the ability to manipulate ki (Shown by a believe his first real power up vs Piccolo jr) couldnt walk well and could barely jump a few hundred feet. Heck Raditz could not even raise or hide his power.

 

Note im not a supporter of either I still fell the same way I did back a few pages (WTF 9!?!?) that they can kill each other just as easily with nerve strikes and I give it a 5/10 to both just felt these statements were not correct and I will also say this is a lame test of skill since nearly all of even the most basic martial arts moves in the DBZ universe are built with the idea that martial artist are on average stronger than DC and Marvel ones even fodder moves like Zanzoken is really immposible

What Martial Art style has Goku mastered? When you can answer that question and provide evidence then you can say Goku is a Martial Artist on Batman's level.

Nearly every martial arts style in the DB universe due to him haveing probably his only hax ability to mimic any style he see's perfectly though this is pointless since a ton of his styles a made for supirior strength,speed and the usage of Ki

[Nesh]

You mean to tell me you can't pretend Goku for this match Goku is use to fighting at human levels and that its not a problem for him?

I've already admitted Bruce would win even if he were.

[Guest bigballerju]

Okay Nesh just glad you finally understand.

[Nesh]

Okay Nesh just glad you finally understand.

 

 

I just wish the OP hadn't been so open to interpretation, this could have all been avoided.

[Guest sirmethos]

I just wish the OP hadn't been so open to interpretation, this could have all been avoided.

 

True, then maybe you would have stuck to the on-going debate, instead of using the ambiguous nature of the OP as an out.

 

 

-snip-

 

"yeah it had nothing to do with Ki most feats pre-Z dont you gotta remember pre-Z they didnt have the vast sums of ki to wast on things and needed to preserve it this is shown best when Goku opts out of a kamehameha against Tenshinhan since 1 would have left him at a severe disadvantage and no one has the skill in controlling ki (Outside of Kami,PoPo and muten Roshi) to up there stats"

 

They don't need to manipulate their Ki in order to be physically enhanced by it. Videl had absolutely no Ki Manipulation skills, and was still stronger than any normal human, due to her larger Ki stores.

 

And yes, both Taopaipai's killing of Blue, using his tongue, as well as Roshi paralyzing Wolf Man, were done by using Ki.

 

 

"hell they didnt even know how to shot fodder ki blast and some didnt even know how to fly. (Till the Piccolo jr saga)"

 

Very true. That, however, doesn't change the fact that their physical capabilities are enhanced by their Ki.

 

 

"While not really a show of skill it is a show of tactics is Goku switching to a animalistic style to catch someone as skilled as Muten Roshi of guard more of a show of battle wits then overall skill.

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/dragon-ball/48/p-12"

 

True, it's not particularly an example of skill. Though does show that Goku has some potential in acting.

 

 

"Back to the pressure point once again nothing to do with ki.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-11/dra...hapter-119.html"

 

Yes, it was done with Ki.

 

If you look at it in color:

 

You can see the Ki being used.

 

 

"Muten Roshi also shows the ability to hypnotize people.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-13/dra...hapter-119.html

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2768-13/dra...hapter-119.html"

 

And how, exactly, is this an example of Combat Skills from Goku?

 

 

 

"Nearly every martial arts style in the DB universe due to him haveing probably his only hax ability to mimic any style he see's perfectly though this is pointless since a ton of his styles a made for supirior strength,speed and the usage of Ki"

 

Not so pointless. While you admit that "a ton of his styles are made for superior strength, speed and the usage of Ki", that still supposedly leaves a few styles that aren't made for that. A few styles that supposedly puts him on par with Batman in terms of combat skills. Yet there are no actual proof or examples of those skills.

[Guest Shockwave]

Ok, for Goku's actual level of skill, during the Picciollo saga of Dragonball, Tien stated he can master any form of martial arts after viewing it once. This is further proven from when General Pao kicked his Hyde all over the place the first time, then Goku came back after training with the cat and was able to predict his move.

[Guest sirmethos]

Goku's "training with the cat" consisted of Goku becoming stronger and faster, and learning to predict an opponents moves(by essentially playing Tag with the cat).

 

The person that Goku defeated after training with the cat(korin), was Taopaipai, not a General. And he defeated him due to superior power(strength and speed).

 

 

As for Tien's statement, I'm looking through the manga right now, and I'm not seeing that anywhere. Do you have the specific issue where it is stated?

[Guest Shockwave]

Goku's "training with the cat" consisted of Goku becoming stronger and faster, and learning to predict an opponents moves(by essentially playing Tag with the cat).

 

The person that Goku defeated after training with the cat(korin), was Taopaipai, not a General. And he defeated him due to superior power(strength and speed).

 

 

As for Tien's statement, I'm looking through the manga right now, and I'm not seeing that anywhere. Do you have the specific issue where it is stated?

 

Not an issue per-say, but it was in the Anime after Goku vs Tien before Goku fought Piciollo for the title

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

This thread is going no where fast. I'll end on this note:

 

We have seen time and again, Batman beating foes who are physically better then him through sheer skill. We have seen Goku need POWER to win fights over and over.

 

Just saiyan'.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

To Sirmethos:

 

I think you are confused

 

You say that Master Roshi doing the forehead touch is ki, because we can see the ki? That is not ki, that's the same thing that dc does with words to express sound or something. It shows the finger hitting the forehead for pure visuals

 

Please stop nickpicking everything dude

 

You seem intelligent how can you not see that DBZ was a martial arts show and just because you say it doesn't show them train pure skills( which you seem to not know what you are even talking about) that it doesn't happen

 

Define skills please? You say Batman has more because he fights w/o any added help or powers correct? But I have recently was given a bunch of Batman comics and it shows him working out, running, pretty much the same kind of things that DBZ does and yet you don't count that on purpose

 

Oh and the reason Batman wins is not pure skills he is peak human which means he does it by punching harder or running faster or even lasting longer all signs of being more powerful, in DBZ Goku always has to use his skills as his PL is almost always less at first

 

 

You mention that Batman has beaten Bane with pure Skills, but he has done it by taking his juice away so not really an accurate statement

[Guest Shockwave]

I just wish the OP hadn't been so open to interpretation, this could have all been avoided.

 

No powers, no prep is too open to interpretation? That's pretty damn definitive if you ask me.

[Guest Pseudonym]

Every action in dragonball Z uses ki. Taking poops requires ki because ki is life energy. There is nothing that they do that does not require ki. When you say 'saiyan's aren't stronger, they just have more ki'. That's what stronger means. Stronger = More life energy which can be marshalled for surviving strong gravitational fields and punching bitches in the abdomen.

 

Also, proof of Goku's martial arts prowess can be seen in 1) He practices a lot, and from this fact we may conclude that he is good at what he does. 2) His style is adaptable enough to work with all sorts of villains including one with five limbs. and 3) The fact that he contends with classically trained warriors frequently.

 

Sure he doesn't outbox these people, but in the H2H he is always keeping pace with them trading blocks and punches with the rest of them. Goku is a good martial artist.

 

For this fight, is Bats in his suit?

[Guest force_echo]

1. I can type at over one hundred words per minute. My grammar is impeccable.

4. Quite.

Your fourth point is a sentence fragment.

[Guest Bladephyre]

Your fourth point is a sentence fragment.

 

No it is not. It is a one word command. One word command imperative sentences have an understood, "Please would you (be)," in front of them.

[Guest force_echo]

No it is not. It is a one word command. One word command imperative sentences have an understood, "Please would you (be)," in front of them.

Thank you for the laugh.