Match 11166 The Punisher vs. Justice League

[Guest badpierce]

Welcome to another elseworlds tale. Thise story takes place on an earth much like the Dc universe that you have came to know over the years. The main difference is a man named Frank Castle. A man who does not belong here and yet in this world, he has lived here all his life. A soldier and a cop. A father and husband. That is until his family is killed in a battle between the Justice league and the villainous Cyborg Superman and a small group of white Martians in central park. Castle gets there just in time for his wife to die in his arms. Enraged he confronts the heroes. Green arrow and Black Canary are the first to try to console him but the ex marine snaps and opens fire. Catching the heroes off guard and killing both. He then shots robin in the back of the head before he is knocked out by a shocked superman.

Castle goes to trial and sentenced to life in prison but to his sunrise when the prison van drops him off he is standing at the home of the infamous Lex Luthor. He is shown in and walks in to the massive house to see not only lex but another man standing in the room next to him. It is none other then Ra's al ghul.

The two villains have put aside there differences and formed an alliance to offer Frank Castle a chance at revenge. Through devious ways, Ra's has learned the identities and weaknesses of all 8 remaining JSL members that where present when the Castle family was killed. With that knowledge and the financial and technical backing of lexcorp, the Castle is free to hand out his brand of punishment.

------------------------------------------------

The line up

Punisher

vs

JLA(classic)

Superman, Batman, Hawkman, the Question, Green Lantern, Flash, Nightwing and Red Arrow.

 

This is not a straight up battle. The punisher is hunting them one by one and has the means to kill each one of them. But can he do it before the Heroes catch him? You decide ...

[Callisto]

Learn More About

The Punisher

Read more about The Punisher at Wikipedia

Official Site: Marvel Comics Links: The Punisher's Wikipedia page IMDB Punisher The Punisher Archives

 

Justice League

Read more about Justice League at Wikipedia

Official Site: DC Comics Links: Wikipedia Entry Justice League Library JLU Official Website

 

 

[Guest badpierce]

Ok so I took this from to comics. Obviously punisher vs marvel universe and also a justice league story where Ra's steals the weaknesses of the members of the justice league from batman.

[Guest anu]

Though I would like to give the nod to Frank Castle on this one, I just can't. The major reason for this is one called Batman. He is so on top of everything that even if the punisher was hunting them one by one there are so many factors considering communication that i see it as hard for him not to get caught before he takes them all out. Now of course he could do a pretty good sniper job on some of them yet if he has any sense at all he would take out Batman first if he could. Then he would have a better chance because if he doesn't then by the time Batman finds out he's good as caught.

 

Batman can fight surely however he's a great detective and can track Punisher down. It would be hard for me to think that if he took out one then the others would not be on alert pretty quick. Once that happens the hammer is dropped on him.

 

Sorry, Punisher loses.

[Guest badpierce]

Yes unless he could take many of them out at once. Batman and superman would be one, two on my hit list. Thanks for commenting.

[C.T.]

With Lex and Ra's backing him up? Yeah, I'd say Castle has a good chance. Especially considering most of the roster he has to take out is street level(Bats, Question, Nightwing, Red Arrow) or super powered with bad weaknesses.

[Guest Rupertmetal]

anu - I agree with your analysis. Voted JLA.

[baneblade]

I have tried to break this down every way I could, and still see Castle losing. Reasons are below:

1) The JLA's 2nd tiers have faced opponents that are more skilled, more expeirenced, readily armed with almost every shred of knowledge about the JLA, caught them off guard, had solid backing, plus accompanying muscle power, and still lost, even if by a thin line.

2) He has already killed Arrow and Canary, leaving the immediate impression, that even though imprisoned, he has to be watched, monitored; he is dangerous and will have a mad on. He is pretty much under their radar as they are under his, courtesy of Ras and Lex. Soon, the authorities will alert tha JLA that Castle is gone/missing. With Bats 'think always 10 steps ahead' contingency, Castle, even with marginal victories on only the members he catches off guard, will eventually lose by that precious margin.

 

That said, the setup itself sowed the seeds for Castle's defeat, by having him shoot down Canary and Arrow. Though I do not comprehend or accept his, that Arrow, one of the most re-active of urban fighters just gets shot down, and gets beat by Castle's reflexes, where he would avert someone like Deathstroke, I still roll with it, but state as earlier, that everyone saw what he can do, and what his objective will be. Simply their expectation of the worst was Castle's downfall from the start.

[Guest badpierce]

Really I just tried to mirror the punisher vs marvel universe plot. In that one, he shot cyclops, jubeellee, and someone else. If he can get the jump on cyclops then he can get the jump on arrow. Also he got caught a few times in that one only to be broken out again by his employer. That said, the deck is stacked against him. Thanks for the comments.

[Guest .Big Game James.]

JLA.....with ease!!!

[Guest anu]

anu - I agree with your analysis. Voted JLA.

 

Wow another thing that doesn't happen every day ..THANKS!

[Guest Guest]

The only one Punisher would have trouble taking down, is Flash.

[xLEGACYx]

its pretty much broken down by baneblade. When Frank goes after one the others will realize. he nay stop one and at most two but the others will band together and take him down easily.

[Guest bigballerju]

Superman, Batman, Hawkman, the Question, Green Lantern, Flash, Nightwing and Red Arrow.

 

Anu is right in the sense Batman is usually the first to know about these kinds of attacks and is first on top of everything. RIP, Ra's Al Ghul attacking the League, and more prove this. In the DC Universe they have come to the point to be prepared for attacks like this. Batman or Nightwing are the most experienced with these types of attacks. One of the two would be the one to put Frank down for good. Both more then likely would already have come up with an advantage to there liking or already be one step ahead of Frank.

 

Luthor backing Frank doesn't mean a whole alot as Luthor has been one of the least successful in taking down the JLA in DC. Luthor's schemes usually have involved making them look bad and having someone else do his dirty work to further his own gains. Deathstroke, Ra's Al Ghul, Prometheus, Gorilla Grodd, and more have all been more successful. Now yes Ra's gave Frank the weakness and more but Ra's isn't stupid. Ra's knows Batman is probably already prepped by such an attack from Frank or another villain in DC through his huge source of networks.

 

Frank will fail. Batman and Nightwing will catch on to Frank then warn the others before he can really do any serious damage.

[Guest badpierce]

Well if you read Tower of babel , Ra's uses the plans that Batman himself made to deal with the JLA members if they would go rogue. For the most part they all work and it was just no name goons not Castle. Plus that lineup was much more powerful then the line up I put in this match. Just playing devils advocate ....

[Guest bigballerju]

Yeah I read Tower of Babel and you know who was the first to realize what Ra's was up to immediately when things went down south? Batman since they were his own plans. Plus Ra's doesn't just use no name goons and didn't in that comic from what I remember.

[Guest Guest]

With the information about the JLA, given to him by Luthor and Ra's, the first one to be taken down would be Batman.

 

A sniper rifle when Bruce Wayne is attending some high-end party/dinner, and the Bat is dead.

 

Nightwing would be next to useless for a while after that, due to grief.

 

The next one to go would be The Question, again, sniper round to the face.

 

Then goes Nightwing, after being lured into a trap(an emotionally distressed Nightwing would be easy to lure).

 

Superman can be taken out at any time, with a Kryptonite bullet, courtesy of Lex Luthor.

 

Hawkman and Red Arrow are also easy to kill, explosives on their homes, or sniper rounds are easy ways to do that.

 

Green Lantern would be a problem, due to the Ring's automatic defenses, but surprising him, up close and personal, where he can counter the Ring in the same way as Deathstroke did, then a knife(or bullet) to the face.

 

The biggest problem would be The Flash, but considering his emotional state after everyone else is dead, it would be quite possible for Castle to take him out as well.

 

 

People tend to forget, that Punisher is a researcher and prep. time. user, just as much as Batman is. He doesn't just charge blindly into things.

[Guest bigballerju]

LOL Guest I don't know what JLA your thinking that would fall so easy to the way you described how they would die but its not the JLA on DC's main Earth. Maybe a JLA on another Earth in the Universe but not this one.

[Guest Guest]

I assume you can explain then, how any of them, aside from Flash and Green Lantern, would survive a sniper round to the face(a kryptonite round in Superman's case)?

[Guest bigballerju]

Remember we have to go with the current DC since it wasn't said it was Prereboot.

 

Well one Punisher is a professional so trying to hit Batman with a sniper in a full of room of people at a party is just plain bad and amateur. Batman very easily can avoid it or someone will get in the way. As a matter of fact its been tried before on Bruce Wayne and it has failed. Nightwing is very good and you seem to not know him or completely ignore his skills as well as experience. Nightwing has even passed Bruce as a fighter and in some areas. Same thing applies with Nightwing as people have tried to sniper him before and failed. Hawkman is more then capable of surviving a explosion and bullets with his durability unless this is Pre reboot which it isnt because he didn't specific so. Hawkman is so powerful now its not funny. Red Arrow is very skilled and experienced he would be able to locate explosives. However it is possible for him to be snipered if timed perfectly.

 

You have your information confused on Green Lantern and Flash. That was a inexperienced Kyle who went against Slade. A Green Lantern now would never do that or react like that. Green Lantern now and experienced destroys Punisher. Punisher is not even capable physical wise and more to pull off what Slade or others did against Kyle or any other Lantern.

 

Flash would not be so affected emotional wise that Punisher would beat him easily.

 

You seem to forget or ignore the heroes in DC are use to death because there allies are always dying. It longer influences how they are in battle or more. Yes they grief but it would not influence them. Flash destroys Punisher and Punisher isn't smart enough or capable Physical wise to pull off what Slade or other villains have done against Flash.

 

Superman's armor is made of Kryptionan armor so bullets don't work and that would go for kryptonite too. Even if this is prereboot using a sniper would fail. Superman's super hearing would hear Frank pull the trigger and before the bullet would fire Superman would take out Frank in seconds. Punisher would have to shoot Superman up close.

 

But none of that would happen. Batman when it comes to villains trying to kill him always knows in advance as he has such a huge network of sources as well as snitches or allies or whatever. Batman would know something is up and inform the other members of the JLA.

[Guest Guest]

One point at a time then.

 

1. "Well one Punisher is a professional so trying to hit Batman with a sniper in a full of room of people at a party is just plain bad and amateur. Batman very easily can avoid it or someone will get in the way." No, sniping Batman in a room full of people at a party, is not unprofessional, it's intelligent. A. The Bat's movement is impaired due to being in a crowd, which makes it easier to get a good shot at him. And B.

 

2. "Nightwing is very good and you seem to not know him or completely ignore his skills as well as experience. Nightwing has even passed Bruce as a fighter and in some areas." I'm well aware that Nightwing is a better fighter than Batman. However, I'm also aware that he is very closely connected to Batman, emotionally, and that the Bat's death would hit him hard, which would in turn, impair his abilities. Grief and emotional trauma has a tendency to do that. Keep in mind, that Punisher has full information on the JLa members from Ra's and Luthor. Which means that he knows these things as well.

 

3. "Hawkman is more then capable of surviving a explosion and bullets with his durability unless this is Pre reboot which it isnt because he didn't specific so. Hawkman is so powerful now its not funny.", but just like prereboot, his powers are still connected to his Nth metal armor(at least his durability). Removing the armor/harness is relatively easy, especially for a marksman as skilled as Punisher, when Hawkman isn't expecting it. It's a simple matter of removing the harness, when Hawkman is high enough in the air for the fall to kill him or knock him unconscious. If the fall doesn't outright kill him, it's easy to take him out.

 

4. "You have your information confused on Green Lantern and Flash. That was a inexperienced Kyle who went against Slade. A Green Lantern now would never do that or react like that. Green Lantern now and experienced destroys Punisher. Punisher is not even capable physical wise and more to pull off what Slade or others did against Kyle or any other Lantern.". No, I'm not confusing anything. If Punisher gets up close and personal, before Kyle realizes he's there, then he is very much capable of doing the same thing. Using his own will power, along with physical pain, to counter Kyle's will power so he can't use the ring. Then shoot him repeatedly in the face. The only tricky part is actually getting that close without getting noticed, but even Green Lanterns have to sleep.

 

5. "Flash would not be so affected emotional wise that Punisher would beat him easily.". I never said that it would be easy, I said that it would be possible. Which is simply a fact. Against a completely unaffected Flash, Punisher wouldn't stand much of a chance. But in this case, this is Flash that has just had a large part of his friends, including some of the people he admired and respected the most, brutally murdered, all within a short span of time. He will definitely be affected enough, that it will negatively affect his performance.

 

6. "You seem to forget or ignore the heroes in DC are use to death because there allies are always dying.". Oh yes, of course they are used to it. That's why we still see them in deep grief, when one of the main characters die.[/sarcasm]

 

7. "Flash destroys Punisher and Punisher isn't smart enough or capable Physical wise to pull off what Slade or other villains have done against Flash." While it's true that Punisher isn't physically capable of out manouvering Flash in the way that Slade and others have done, he is definitely smart enough to set up a trap, that would have a definite chance of catching/killing him.

 

8. "Superman's armor is made of Kryptionan armor so bullets don't work and that would go for kryptonite too." Ah yes, because Superman tends to wear that armor all the time, even at the Daily Planet when going around as Clark Kent. Despite the fact that the armor hasn't been mentioned in the setup at all.

 

9. "Even if this is prereboot using a sniper would fail. Superman's super hearing would hear Frank pull the trigger and before the bullet would fire Superman would take out Frank in seconds. Punisher would have to shoot Superman up close." No, he wouldn't be able to hear the shot before the bullet hits him. It's called basic physics. The bullet moves faster than sound, thus it reaches Superman before the sound of the shot.

 

10. "But none of that would happen. Batman when it comes to villains trying to kill him always knows in advance as he has such a huge network of sources as well as snitches or allies or whatever. Batman would know something is up and inform the other members of the JLA." The problem with that scenario, is that in order for the "sources as well as snitches or allies" to inform Batman that Punisher is after him, they would first have to know about it, in order to tell it to anyone. The only way that would happen, would be if Punisher went through the motions of shaking various criminals for information, or equipment. But he already has all the information and equipment he needs, so the only ones that knows he's coming, is Lex Luthor, Ra's Al Ghul, and Punisher. Batman might be on his guard because Punisher has escaped from prison, but being on your guard won't stop a sniper round fired from a city block or two away.

[Guest .Big Game James.]

let's just say if he's sniping he better snipe supes first!!! if he doesn't and takes out someone else first i'd not put it past supes, with his incredible hearing, to detect where the gunshot came from and stomp a mudhole in pun with flash right behind and green lantern creating a force field around the rest of the heroes deflecting even the strongest sniper rifle shells or machine guns or grenades etc. my opinion of course!

[C.T.]

He's going after them one at a time...

[Guest bigballerju]

Good points. I will reply to your post in bold.

 

One point at a time then.

 

1. "Well one Punisher is a professional so trying to hit Batman with a sniper in a full of room of people at a party is just plain bad and amateur. Batman very easily can avoid it or someone will get in the way." No, sniping Batman in a room full of people at a party, is not unprofessional, it's intelligent. A. The Bat's movement is impaired due to being in a crowd, which makes it easier to get a good shot at him. And B.

 

No too many obstacles, people, and the location would make it very hard. Thats depending on the fact also Frank would have to hit Batman through a perfect window and rely on Bruce just happening to be in the right place. Frank's vision in the scope of his sniper would be blocked with a room full of thousands of people. Frank would have to get a clear full because your forgetting the party would be indoors. Plus he is Bruce Wayne the playboy so he will always have people around him and women hanging on to him. Frank would not be able to get a clear shot at all. If Frank tries to hit Bruce that way he will miss or hit someone else. Frank only has so much room in his scope and with thousands of people around Bruce he won't get a shot off.

 

2. "Nightwing is very good and you seem to not know him or completely ignore his skills as well as experience. Nightwing has even passed Bruce as a fighter and in some areas." I'm well aware that Nightwing is a better fighter than Batman. However, I'm also aware that he is very closely connected to Batman, emotionally, and that the Bat's death would hit him hard, which would in turn, impair his abilities. Grief and emotional trauma has a tendency to do that. Keep in mind, that Punisher has full information on the JLa members from Ra's and Luthor. Which means that he knows these things as well.

 

Nope it wouldn't impair his abilities. If anything when things like that happen to Batman it has strengthen his mission and duty. It makes him even more determined. Same thing with Batman and others in DC. Luthor backing him doesn't mean much here as Luthor has failed more then any of the other villains in DC. The only thing it means is Frank getting weapons and tech to get the jobs done if he plans it right. Nothing more. We saw how Nightwing reacted already when Batman died. Nightwing knew he had to do what was best for him, Gotham, and more. Nightwing would know Bruce in death like we already saw would never want his death to influence him in his mission and battles against evil.

 

3. "Hawkman is more then capable of surviving a explosion and bullets with his durability unless this is Pre reboot which it isnt because he didn't specific so. Hawkman is so powerful now its not funny.", but just like prereboot, his powers are still connected to his Nth metal armor(at least his durability). Removing the armor/harness is relatively easy, especially for a marksman as skilled as Punisher, when Hawkman isn't expecting it. It's a simple matter of removing the harness, when Hawkman is high enough in the air for the fall to kill him or knock him unconscious. If the fall doesn't outright kill him, it's easy to take him out.

 

Hawkman in the reboot has his armor and whole gear bonded to him so there is no removing it at all and its completely different from Pre-reboot. Plus his whole armor and more in the reboot is literally underneath his human skin to come out whenever he wants since its bonded to him for good. Completely different from Pre-reboot and not even Lex Or Ra's will have the means to remove it. Reboot Hawkman's durability is high to the point he can take blows from Black Adam and thats including a healing factor that Hawkman has. Hawkman has superhuman strength and other abilities. Frank has no way of killing Hawkman. Ra's and Lex know nothing of Hawkman's abilities or his armor.

 

4. "You have your information confused on Green Lantern and Flash. That was a inexperienced Kyle who went against Slade. A Green Lantern now would never do that or react like that. Green Lantern now and experienced destroys Punisher. Punisher is not even capable physical wise and more to pull off what Slade or others did against Kyle or any other Lantern.". No, I'm not confusing anything. If Punisher gets up close and personal, before Kyle realizes he's there, then he is very much capable of doing the same thing. Using his own will power, along with physical pain, to counter Kyle's will power so he can't use the ring. Then shoot him repeatedly in the face. The only tricky part is actually getting that close without getting noticed, but even Green Lanterns have to sleep.

 

No Kyle has never done the same thing since then if Identity Crisis even happened in the reboot which I don't believe it did. A experienced Kyle now is one of the best in the Green Lantern Corps. Kyle has never resulted to such a physical action like that since then. Unlike Hal Jordan Kyle and other Lanterns always have there ring on. Not only that with there Green Lantern ring on there force field is always on and can take attacks from cosmic foes. Like I said Frank would lose here horriblely.

 

5. "Flash would not be so affected emotional wise that Punisher would beat him easily.". I never said that it would be easy, I said that it would be possible. Which is simply a fact. Against a completely unaffected Flash, Punisher wouldn't stand much of a chance. But in this case, this is Flash that has just had a large part of his friends, including some of the people he admired and respected the most, brutally murdered, all within a short span of time. He will definitely be affected enough, that it will negatively affect his performance.

 

You don't know in what order Frank will attack the heroes. But it doesn't matter as like other heroes in DC a death wouldn't affect them mentally and more to the point in battle it would be a huge disadvantage for them. It only strengthens there mission as a hero and more. Frank has no way of killing Flash. Flash has a super healing factor cause of his super speed and connection to the speed force. Reverse Flash tried all that mental stuff with Barry Allen when he killed his mother and the only thing it got him was Barry killing him as he snapped his neck. It won't affect Flash and even if Frank attempts a plan to but down Flash. There is one thing your forgetting. Frank is not capable physical wise of even hitting Flash with any weapon what so ever. Deathstroke was a superhuman who was way past even Captain America. Frank no matter what plan is not fast enough to even hit Flash with a fatal blow. Plus it wouldn't matter because of the healing factor.

 

 

6. "You seem to forget or ignore the heroes in DC are use to death because there allies are always dying.". Oh yes, of course they are used to it. That's why we still see them in deep grief, when one of the main characters die.[/sarcasm]

 

Yes DC Heroes are use to death. Green Lantern, Superman, and others have all joked in there world death and coming to life seems to be a constant cycle. It only strengthens there mission to continue there goals as Heroes and pay respects to there fallen comrades. There is no one here that will die and affect the other members in way that will be a huge disadvantage for them.

 

7. "Flash destroys Punisher and Punisher isn't smart enough or capable Physical wise to pull off what Slade or other villains have done against Flash." While it's true that Punisher isn't physically capable of out manouvering Flash in the way that Slade and others have done, he is definitely smart enough to set up a trap, that would have a definite chance of catching/killing him.

 

Read the previous post on Flash which I already replied to your Flash posts.

 

8. "Superman's armor is made of Kryptionan armor so bullets don't work and that would go for kryptonite too." Ah yes, because Superman tends to wear that armor all the time, even at the Daily Planet when going around as Clark Kent. Despite the fact that the armor hasn't been mentioned in the setup at all.

 

Here on CBUB unless said in the setup which it wasn't we go with the current vision of characters. Superman's armor which is his suit is underneath his human skin which he can simply have come out when he needs it. There is no need for him to say whether or not he has it because thats something that obvious that Superman is gone have since thats his new costume in the reboot. However I don't need to tell you Superman doesn't even need his suit to be a armor like sustance.

 

9. "Even if this is prereboot using a sniper would fail. Superman's super hearing would hear Frank pull the trigger and before the bullet would fire Superman would take out Frank in seconds. Punisher would have to shoot Superman up close." No, he wouldn't be able to hear the shot before the bullet hits him. It's called basic physics. The bullet moves faster than sound, thus it reaches Superman before the sound of the shot.

 

Basic physics? This is comics and Superman has super hearing. Superman has shown to be able to hear Someone pull a trigger before the bullet is fired and then reach that person before that bullet even leaves the gun at times. The bullet moves faster then sound? Well Superman moves faster then light......... Ever hear of Superman moves faster then a speeding bullet phase? LOL I shouldn't even have to defend Superman on this has he has done all of this a million times in comics. Like I said Punisher would have to fire that gun up close and he would have to do it while Superman wasn't expecting it or distracted.

 

10. "But none of that would happen. Batman when it comes to villains trying to kill him always knows in advance as he has such a huge network of sources as well as snitches or allies or whatever. Batman would know something is up and inform the other members of the JLA." The problem with that scenario, is that in order for the "sources as well as snitches or allies" to inform Batman that Punisher is after him, they would first have to know about it, in order to tell it to anyone. The only way that would happen, would be if Punisher went through the motions of shaking various criminals for information, or equipment. But he already has all the information and equipment he needs, so the only ones that knows he's coming, is Lex Luthor, Ra's Al Ghul, and Punisher. Batman might be on his guard because Punisher has escaped from prison, but being on your guard won't stop a sniper round fired from a city block or two away.

 

Batman could find out through people that work for Lex Luthor or Ra's Al Ghul. Batman in the past with both men has found out what either were planning through that way actually. Batman could also track where Punisher went through his source of allies and technology. Batman could find out who broke him out and more. Batman could figure the plan out by contacting Martian Manhunter and having him locate Frank through telepathy. Batman could contact Zatanna or others. Batman has so many options its come to the point its more of what doesn't he know about since he knows about most things going on since he keeps tabs. Batman with his intellect would figure it out before Punisher was even finished planning his move. Batman would be ready for Punisher to try all sorts of attacks. He would call in allies and more. When Punisher is coming to Gotham Batman would be ready for him and have his own attack waiting for Frank.

[Guest Rupertmetal]

Good debate. One person that hasn't been mentioned yet is Wonder Woman. The ultimate bullet deflector. I think the JLA would eventually win. Punisher can't attack them all alone at the same time. There would be time between each attack, and in that time after kill 1, 2 or 3 the rest of the JLA would figure out someone is trying to pick them off one at a time. They'd work together to set a trap, lure Punisher in and catch him. So again, I think JLA wins, but I think Punish gets 1 to 3 kills. Not bad for someone without powers.