Match 12029 Darkseid vs. Janemba

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Are you kidding me Sirmethos. I can tell you know nothing of actual fighting let alone martial arts, but thats cool.

A few things that you are wrong. Choke Hold being mind control and a punch being telepathy. Please use this basic logic as it would probably help you.

 

Prof X has telepathy which he can control minds right? He therefore has the ability to control his own mind thus creating a telepathic barrier. I like how you argue something that is fictional (being that you are trying to get so technical that you are not making sense)

 

Goku has telepathy and no one trained him to use it. He and all others can do it but arent as good as they aren't as powerful. What makes you think he cannot fight off other forms of the same technique (In DBZ everything is a technique, unless it's magic)

 

So Superman beating DS is PIS is what you are saying, even though the writers have mostly always shown Supes beating DS, yeah good logic there (I call it excuses as if Superman is mostly winning means that DS beating Supes is PIS more than the other way around) You must not be aware of plots and climaxes as Orion stalemating Supes is just that.

oh and I have been in real fights, unlike you I actual do it every week, train and spar, reaction time is not real, sure you can react faster, but that always means that you are faster in general. You cannot be a slow poke and be "faster at reacting to something" its called muscle twitches and that is all related. You are taking one aspect of it and calling something different which is nonsense.

Watch the show, when Krillin Bulma and Gohan are traveling to Namek, they fight in the astral plane. Mind control is not just TP< it is a part of it, and if you can will yourself to not be affected by mind control, then you can essentially defend your mind in general. You say that Darkseid has shown to be able to react to DBZ fighters? How have they fought? oh that means you assume because some PIS shows DS punching Superman? Lame buddy I thought you were more logical than that.

 

Oh and experience is not a determining factor it is a factor that gets calculated but as part of a whole system of rating.

If you want to pull real life in this

Try the GSP vs Matt Sera or even Matt Hughes, GSP is less experienced in wrestling than both, and still beat them out of pure sheer strength and skill.

Want to take comics as examples, Wolverine has "tons" experience, but loses to Spiderman, why because his skill strength and agility plus intelligence kicks in which is what I mean by experience being just one of a few factors to consider.

OH and your Batman is more experienced than DBZ makes me wonder, you base it on how many styles he knows, which makes sense on the outside, but its not about styles as if you knew most martial arts are just tradition and not practical. I rather know a few practical ones than a bunch of useless ones (Tai Chi, TKD as examples that are really useless except a few moves from that style specifically).

Goku is that guy that learns as he fights, he picks up fighting a lot faster than anyone in his universe and I bet if he was human he would be more powerful than Karate Kid is still,

 

People like you claim since I cannot name a specific style Goku has learned that therefore he doesnt know any or not as good of a fighter, but you all can agree that the crane style or hermit turtle style is a conglomerate of unnamed styles (DBZ is not our earth and should not be compared to our styles we know)

Lastly Janemba's sword is magic, which usually breaks the laws of physics and given that it's an aspect of his own energy is just as powerful as he can be. Darkseid would lose as even if he can react as fast as you say he cannot move out of the way since he is (you said) much slower anyway.

 

I like having time off work I can start a ruckus on this site.

[Guest sirmethos]

"Are you kidding me Sirmethos. I can tell you know nothing of actual fighting let alone martial arts, but thats cool."

 

No, I'm not kidding, and I know quite a bit about actual fighting and martial arts. Kain can vouch for that

 

 

"A few things that you are wrong. Choke Hold being mind control and a punch being telepathy. Please use this basic logic as it would probably help you."

 

Try actually reading what I say.

 

Choke Hold would be the analogy for Mind Control, while a punch to the face would be the analogy for a Telepathic Spike. They're both Telepathy, they're just different applications of it. Just like a Punch and a Choke Hold are both physical attacks, just different kinds. Being able to resist/defend against one, doesn't necessarily mean that you're able to defend against the other.

 

 

"Prof X has telepathy which he can control minds right? He therefore has the ability to control his own mind thus creating a telepathic barrier."

 

Professor X has telepathy, yes. He has trained himself over several years, to be able to do all kinds of things. He has also, in the process of that training, developed telepathic shielding. At first, it was purely receptive telepathy. I.e. he was reading everyone around him's minds, without being able to stop. Thus, he initially learned how to shield himself, so that he wouldn't be overwhelmed.

 

Emma Frost is also a telepath, but she didn't develop mental shields until after her first encounter with another telepath. She was capable of things like Mind Reading, and minor Mental Adjustments though.

 

The only telepathy that the DBZ characters have shown, is purely communicative(and possibly some mind reading, but I'm not 100% sure on that one). Something that doesn't require shielding in any way. Babidi was able to use Mind Control, and they were able to resist that by pure will power.

 

I'm still waiting for some kind of proof that they have any kind of mental/telepathic defenses.

 

 

"Goku has telepathy and no one trained him to use it. He and all others can do it but arent as good as they aren't as powerful. What makes you think he cannot fight off other forms of the same technique (In DBZ everything is a technique, unless it's magic)"

 

As I already said, the only telepathy shown by any of the Z fighters, is purely communicative. Nothing that would require any kind of mental defenses.

 

What makes me think that he wouldn't be able to fight off other kinds of telepathic attacks, is quite simple. A mind blast, or a telepathic spike, or other similar offensive telepathic techniques, are not things you can "fight off". Either you defend yourself(with mental shielding). I.e. the attack never actually hits you(it hits your shields). Or you don't defend yourself. I.e. the attack either breaks through your shields, or you don't have any shields.

 

By your logic, Goku's standard energy shield, that is able to protect him against Energy Blasts, should also be able to protect him from the Solar Flare technique. After all, the Solar Flare is just another Ki Technique. But we both know that it doesn't work that way.

 

 

"So Superman beating DS is PIS is what you are saying"

 

No, Superman beating Darkseid is because Superman is the hero. It has nothing to do with PIS. PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. The hero always winning in the end, is just a comic book fact. Comics Mechanics.

 

 

"oh and I have been in real fights, unlike you I actual do it every week, train and spar, reaction time is not real, sure you can react faster, but that always means that you are faster in general. You cannot be a slow poke and be "faster at reacting to something" its called muscle twitches and that is all related. You are taking one aspect of it and calling something different which is nonsense."

 

Training and sparring in a controlled environment =/= real fights. Try going to a club and getting into a fight there. Then you can claim you've been in a real fight.

 

And yes, reaction time is very much real. "Reaction time is the elapsed time between the presentation of a sensory stimulus and the subsequent behavioral response."

 

Just like Movement speed is real(moving from A to B ), and combat speed is real.

 

Having a faster reaction time, doesn't necessarily mean that you are faster in general. I speak from painful experience on that -.-

 

And from his general showings, Darkseid's reaction speed and combat speed, is fast enough to keep up with the DBZ fighters.

 

 

"Watch the show, when Krillin Bulma and Gohan are traveling to Namek, they fight in the astral plane."

 

Been a while since I've seen the show, but the manga shows absolutely nothing. And I don't remember anything about the astral plane from the show either. Though if you can actually prove it(i.e. a youtube vid)...

 

 

"Mind control is not just TP< it is a part of it, and if you can will yourself to not be affected by mind control, then you can essentially defend your mind in general."

 

So, if you can get out of a choke hold, you can automatically defend yourself against any kind of physical attack. Yea, that's logic.[/sarcasm]

 

 

"You say that Darkseid has shown to be able to react to DBZ fighters? How have they fought? oh that means you assume because some PIS shows DS punching Superman? Lame buddy I thought you were more logical than that."

 

I don't assume. Darkseid has shown to be able to react at speeds more than enough to react to the DBZ fighters on several occasions. Doing something repeatedly =/= PIS. PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. If a person/character does the same over and over and over again, then it's not PIS.

Spider-Man defeating Firelord = PIS

Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos = PIS

Black Panther physically restraining Silver Surfer = PIS

 

Singular incidents, not something that happens over and over again.

 

 

"Oh and experience is not a determining factor it is a factor that gets calculated but as part of a whole system of rating."

 

That's true, experience alone doesn't determine the outcome. And I've never said that it did. I've merely said that it is a big factor. Which is simply a fact.

 

Other factors are Physical stats(strength, durability, speed, agility, reaction time, stamina, etc.), Skills, Ruthlessness, etc.

 

 

 

"OH and your Batman is more experienced than DBZ makes me wonder, you base it on how many styles he knows, which makes sense on the outside, but its not about styles as if you knew most martial arts are just tradition and not practical."

 

No, I base it on his years of experience, vs. the years of experience that the Z fighters have(goku, for example).

 

I'll break it down for you.

Goku: has about... what, 30 years of experience? if we count training/sparring. And about... 5-6 years of actual combat experience(and that's being generous) at the end of the Manga. Most of his actual fighting, happens in small spurts. The entire Dragonball(when he was a kid) takes less than a year. Then we have a 10(IIRC) year time-skip, then Raditz arrives, and there is about a year or so of on/off fighting, until his fight with Frieza. Then there's a minor time-skip again, he arrives on earth, and then another time-skip while they wait for the Androids to arrive. Then there's less than a year again with on/off fighting, until he dies when Cell blows himself up.

 

Batman: has about 30 years of experience as well, if we count training/sparring. And about 15-20 years of actual combat experience(guesstimating his age to about 40-45). From he arrived back in Gotham at around the age of 20-25, he has pretty much been fighting every day.

 

Goku's list of noteworthy defeated enemies: Vegeta(ish, it was kind of a stalemate), then Ginyu and two from the ginyu force, then Frieza. That's 5 so far(with 1 being a stalemate). That's about it. (note, my memory was off... I actually thought that Goku had personally defeated more than that).

 

Batman's list of noteworthy defeated enemies: Bane, Killer Croc, Hush, Joker, Lady Shiva, etc. etc. etc. too many to list.

 

Bottom line: Yes, Batman has far more combat experience than any of the Z fighters.

 

And while, yes, a lot of martial arts are more 'show' than effectiveness. There are several martial arts that are highly effective as well.

 

 

"I rather know a few practical ones than a bunch of useless ones (Tai Chi, TKD as examples that are really useless except a few moves from that style specifically)."

 

Neither Tai Chi, nor Tae Kwon Do are useless(though granted, unlike other more 'practical' martial arts, they require a certain minimum of skill before they start being effective).

 

I would much rather go up against someone that has spent a year or two learning/training 'practical' martial arts. Than someone that has spent 10-20 years learning/training Tae Kwon Do.

 

I can think of several martial arts that I would prefer over TKD, but that hardly makes it useless. The mental aspect of a martial art, is just as important as the physical moves. For example, I would rather go up against a Jeet Kune Do fighter, than an Aikido fighter. Purely because of the mental aspects. With the JKD fighter, I would just get my arse kicked, I would hurt, and I would get over it. With the Aikido fighter, I wouldn't get hurt, I would get humiliated -.- And while I'm not particularly touchy about my pride, that's just taking it to the ridiculous.

 

Ideally, I would mix a handful or so, of different Martial Arts.

 

If you take a guy, and spend 10 years teaching him one style. Then once those 10 years are done, I can, with knowledge of which style you've been teaching him, teach a random guy from the street, enough to take him down, in a matter of 2, maybe 3 weeks. Simply by countering that specific style.

 

If you take that same guy, and teach him 2 different styles. Then it would take me a lot longer to train a random guy to take him down.

 

 

"Goku is that guy that learns as he fights, he picks up fighting a lot faster than anyone in his universe and I bet if he was human he would be more powerful than Karate Kid is still,"

 

Goku is from the DBZ universe, of course he would be more powerful than Karate Kid. Karate Kid is far more skilled though, take away Goku's superior power, and put them on an even footing, so that the fight is determined by pure skill and experience, and Goku wouldn't stand a chance.

 

 

"People like you claim since I cannot name a specific style Goku has learned that therefore he doesnt know any or not as good of a fighter, but you all can agree that the crane style or hermit turtle style is a conglomerate of unnamed styles (DBZ is not our earth and should not be compared to our styles we know)"

 

It has nothing to do with not being able to name a specific style. But everything to do with the fact that Goku never recieved any technical hand-to-hand training. All the training he has recieved, has been focused on learning various Ki techniques, and increasing his Power Level.

 

The 'Hermit Turtle style', is not a hand-to-hand combat style, it's more of a mind-set, and a few Ki Techniques(like how Flying or rather Levitation, was originally a Crane style technique).

 

 

"Lastly Janemba's sword is magic, which usually breaks the laws of physics and given that it's an aspect of his own energy is just as powerful as he can be. Darkseid would lose as even if he can react as fast as you say he cannot move out of the way since he is (you said) much slower anyway."

 

What does that have to do with anything? There is only one thing that can kill Darkseid(radion). Magic is not it.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

ok so again you know nothing about fighting.

 

I will say this in a more simpler manner.

 

You would rather fight a JKD fighter? that means nothing because it is not a style, but let me continue...

 

You are basing that Batman has more experience because he has fought more people, well by that anyone that has fought more is more skilled? You put Killer Croc in there as if he was anything special, hes not a fighter, nor a skilled fighter as that.

Goku beat for than 5 people

 

to name a few, he defeated his own master, Krillin, Ten, Piccolo, Gunyu (most of them, at least 4) Vegeta( he would have)

Frieza, and Buu at the very least, and also the no name ones he fought which is more than another 6

 

Between quality and quantity I rather take quality. Sure Batman has fought more, well he should, but half his fights he captures and evades rather than fight.

 

You mention that if you take away Goku's superior power he would lose to Karate Kid, how so? That means that he is still a fighter and Karate Kid w/o his chi is just human whereas Goku is not.

 

Goku recieved training that makes him faster and stronger as well as when Popo trained him how to focus and use his brain, he received better training as in DBZ it is beyond style, but also power/skill/energy, all which have more aspects of fighting than just styles as Batman has.

 

He received training from Karin, Kami, King Kai, the people that taught him IT, and several other races from the other world.

He is always training.

 

Put it this way, If you take a weight lifting class and I just weight lift on my own it doesn't make you better.

In DBZ fighting style is the basics (meaning that in DC styles are their pinnacle) and Goku mastered that, he trains to become more powerful as he needs to or else he is toast. Goku loves fighting and laughs at challenge, he enjoys it and is a horrible parent and husband as a result (he is ALWAYS training) Self training is real as many UFC fighters do so. Bruce Lee did it, he received basic training in a few styles like Gung Fu and then read about others and practiced, Goku does the same he received basic training (mastered it and then self improved it to be effective with higher power)

 

In other words, this is just like Thor who has no formal training except with a Hammer and yet you would even consider him a better fighter just because he has been doing it for 1000's of years but name me at least a few issues where he is seen training specifically in hand to hand? Not once has Thor used a kick, nor Superman. Batman does, but lacks power so basically Goku is a mix of it all. It's not cheap to have more power, even a Cheetah is more agile and faster than a lion, but the lion is fast enough and stronger so it makes the cheetah inferior, which is what Batman is to any DBZ.

 

Oh and there is more than one way to skin a cat always. I am sure Magic can too or even sheer brute force as he has been beat up and manhandled by people with pure physical attacks (Doomsday)

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpLP4ynbk8Q

 

him training in actual hand to hand combat

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

another good example is the movie GI Joe, when Snake Eyes is the better skilled fighter but Duke takes him down anyway

[Guest sirmethos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpLP4ynbk8Q

 

him training in actual hand to hand combat

 

Non-Canon.

 

That directly contradicts the Manga, which is the primary Canon.

 

Give me a few moments and I'll post the scan from the Manga.(and I'll reply to your main post, the large one, after that).

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

ok cool I will wait for it. Either way, the DBZ is always skipping time, so it is assumed that Goku trains everyday, literally

 

Oh and if you choke me out, and I block it or get out of it, I will more than likely be able to dodge a punch or have trained to fight and not just to grapple.

 

 

So telepathy is the same, you train your mind and it becomes harder to mess with. Like magneto has no training but can defend regardless

[Guest sirmethos]

 

 

 

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

good post, however this is one scan, show them actually sparring, this just helps me more as it implies that this physical training with their fighting makes them better, it would be equivalent to me weight training to get more powerful as I practice my fighting as well.

[Guest sirmethos]

Now to respond to the large one.

 

"You are basing that Batman has more experience because he has fought more people"

 

Uh, yea. Fighting more = more combat experience.

 

"well by that anyone that has fought more is more skilled?"

 

No, they are more experienced. There's a difference.

 

"You put Killer Croc in there as if he was anything special, hes not a fighter, nor a skilled fighter as that."

 

Croc is far faster, more durable, stronger, more agile, etc. Defeating him is an impressive feat in and of itself. He is also a fairly skilled wrestler and street fighter, so saying that "he isn't a fighter" is pure bull.

 

"Goku beat for than 5 people

 

to name a few, he defeated his own master, Krillin, Ten, Piccolo, Gunyu (most of them, at least 4) Vegeta( he would have)

Frieza, and Buu at the very least, and also the no name ones he fought which is more than another 6"

 

From the Ginyu force(aside from Ginyu himself) he only defeated 3, and I didn't count Recoome, because all he(goku) did was elbow him in the stomach. Which makes it a total of 3 from the Ginyu Force.

 

Vegeta was, at best, a stalemate. If he hadn't gotten help from Yajirobe, he would have been completely crushed.

 

Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi is true, but if you noticed, I only started counting from the arrival of Raditz.

 

He didn't defeat Buu, he stalemated him until he(goku) ran out of energy. Though he did defeat Yakon when Buu was being awakened, I forgot about him earlier.

 

From Raditz' arrival and up, he didn't really fight any nonames. It was mostly just the large battles.

 

That still doesn't count up to more than, maybe, 10 if we're being generous, since the arrival of Raditz.

 

 

"Between quality and quantity I rather take quality. Sure Batman has fought more, well he should, but half his fights he captures and evades rather than fight."

 

Bane, Hush, Lady Shiva, Ra's Al Ghul, just to mention a few Batman enemies that are more skilled than any of the enemies that Goku has faced.

 

Batman has Goku beaten in both quantity as well as quality of enemies. Goku's enemies are more powerful though.

 

 

"You mention that if you take away Goku's superior power he would lose to Karate Kid, how so? That means that he is still a fighter and Karate Kid w/o his chi is just human whereas Goku is not."

 

Again, read what I say.

 

I said if we took away Goku's superior power, and put them on an even footing, so that the fight is determined by pure skill and experience

 

And I'll say again, in a battle between the two, of pure skill, Goku would be completely decimated.

 

 

"Goku recieved training that makes him faster and stronger as well as when Popo trained him how to focus and use his brain, he received better training as in DBZ it is beyond style, but also power/skill/energy, all which have more aspects of fighting than just styles as Batman has."

 

Yes, during his training with Popo(just like with Karin, and Kai), his training was focused on his Ki. Making him stronger, and get better control of his Ki/new Ki techniques. All of which is extremely effective in DBZ fights, but which would be completely useless in a pure hand-to-hand fight.

 

 

"He received training from Karin, Kami, King Kai, the people that taught him IT, and several other races from the other world."

 

Again, all focused on Ki. Usefull in DBZ, useless in hand-to-hand.

 

 

"Put it this way, If you take a weight lifting class and I just weight lift on my own it doesn't make you better."

 

That's true, but what does that have to do with anything?

 

If you just learn to fight on your own, while I take classes to learn how to fight, that would make me the better fighter(purely based on skill).

 

 

 

"In DBZ fighting style is the basics (meaning that in DC styles are their pinnacle) and Goku mastered that, he trains to become more powerful as he needs to or else he is toast. Goku loves fighting and laughs at challenge, he enjoys it and is a horrible parent and husband as a result (he is ALWAYS training)"

 

Yes, Goku is always training, and the majority of that training, has the purpose of making him stronger and faster, i.e. more powerful.

 

 

"Self training is real as many UFC fighters do so. Bruce Lee did it, he received basic training in a few styles like Gung Fu and then read about others and practiced"

 

Uh, not so much. Bruce Lee recieved 5 years of formal training in Wing Chun(from age 13 to 18), with personal instruction from two masters. That =/= "basic training". He did recieve basic training in a few other styles though.

 

 

"Goku does the same he received basic training (mastered it and then self improved it to be effective with higher power)"

 

The only actual training Goku has recieved(if any) was from his grandfather, which might, if we're generous, add up to 1-2 years of actual hand-to-hand training(though from the early showings in DB, I doubt he even got that much).

 

 

"n other words, this is just like Thor who has no formal training except with a Hammer"

 

Wait, what?

 

We're talking about the same Thor here, right? God of Thunder, member of the Avengers, son of Odin?

 

He was trained for longer than Goku has been alive, and is one of the most skilled fighters in Marvel. He is skilled enough, that when he lost his powers, he was still able to stalemate Captain America in hand-to-hand combat.

 

He was trained by the finest warriors of Asgard, from he was old enough to hold walk properly and form his hand into a fist.

 

On top of that, he has several thousand years of combat experience, both from personal travels in the 9 realms, but also from leading the armies of Asgard into battle in the various realms.

 

 

 

"and yet you would even consider him a better fighter just because he has been doing it for 1000's of years"

 

No, I would consider him a better fighter because he has proven that he is. Because he was trained as a warrior longer than Goku has been alive, and has kept his skills up by continuous use in actual combat.

 

 

"but name me at least a few issues where he is seen training specifically in hand to hand?"

 

I'll have to get back to you on that, I can't, off the top of my head, remember which issues it was where he lost his powers(where he, among other things, stalemated Captain America).

 

 

"Not once has Thor used a kick, nor Superman."

 

Not true, try reading some actual Thor(and superman) comics.

 

 

 

"Batman does, but lacks power"

 

Again, put him on an even footing with Goku, and Goku would get his arse kicked all over the place. More skill, and more combat experience.

 

 

"so basically Goku is a mix of it all."

 

That's true. Goku has both power and skill, and I've never denied that.

 

 

"It's not cheap to have more power, even a Cheetah is more agile and faster than a lion, but the lion is fast enough and stronger so it makes the cheetah inferior, which is what Batman is to any DBZ."

 

Again, true. But I've never denied that in a straight up fight, Batman would go *splat* due to being overpowered. My only claim is, and has always been, that Batman is far more skilled, and if put on an even footing, would relatively easily defeat any of the Z fighters.

 

 

"Oh and there is more than one way to skin a cat always. I am sure Magic can too "

 

No, radion is the only thing that can kill Darkseid.

 

 

"or even sheer brute force as he has been beat up and manhandled by people with pure physical attacks (Doomsday) "

 

He has been beaten up, yes. But that =/= being killed.

 

 

 

"good post, however this is one scan, show them actually sparring, this just helps me more as it implies that this physical training with their fighting makes them better, it would be equivalent to me weight training to get more powerful as I practice my fighting as well."

 

If you actually read what is said in the scans I provided, Roshi straight up says "I have nothing more to teach you".

 

At that point, he has taught them absolutely nothing about hand-to-hand fighting, just the Kamehameha wave. And made them stronger.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Thanks for the posts dude, I cant sleep and want to continue it.

Keeping to what you replied to me I will address you one point at a time.

 

From the top:

1. More fighting is more experience, but not more skill, fact homie, you can be in school for 8 years and still not be smarter than someone who went for 4 years, more skill doesn't mean better, since skill is just a fraction of what determines a win in a real fight(which I assume you have been in some from your earlier Nightclub comment) I train a lot, I do a lot of sparring which by definition I am more skilled than you, but in reality it could be that you knock me out fast, I doubt you train, but if we both did equally it would come down to pure power/speed and other physical aspects and not skill. (unless I have no clue what to do of course, in this case Goku does)

 

2. Croc is not skilled at all, never has been, sure he is stronger, but ifI recall Batman uses his gadgets and tech almost as much if not more than him actually fighting Croc. Moot point since Croc's intelligence is borderline retarded, that feat is not that impressive if you ask me. Croc is a croc of crap.

 

3. Count Recoome as he whooped him good, still counts. Also Goku has fought Pei Pei, Yajirobe (when he was small), and a few more, I count it all as you are trying to name his wins or fights, but you exclude most of them

 

4. Vegeta was a stalemate but Goku was the weaker opponent and if you can say that Batman beating Croc is legit than Goku having never fought someone like him was almost able to defeat him, plus that was the plot so that he can be motivated to train harder.

 

5. Again you say more skill equals better, when it's not true. Batman loses to the Joker until he uses his tech, does that mean more skilled? No.

 

6. Fights (in reference to your reply about Karate Kid)aren't just experience and skill it's also ability and Goku's abilities (minus chi) which means Karate Kid has no chi, would still be a human that is fighting a sayjin (which still has the ability you gain experience and become stronger with each fight. You forget to mention that Goku learns techs instantly and even if Karate Kid had the upper hand it would be for a few seconds

 

7. The majority of his training is to become stronger which will allow his skills to be backed up by power, which if you don't know is a factor in a fight. Take Bruce Lee vs Anderson Silva, You can argue that Bruce is a better skilled fighter, but I can promise that SIlva would whomp on him ( and Silva is probably more skilled as he has trained in something Bruce never did (BJJ) and he just is stronger and taller, more reach etc.

 

8. Oh and Thor, you say he is more skilled, but there is no proof that he has trained, and most of his fights he just swings his hammer, and then calls it back to do it again. There is no proof that he has actual skill. Beating Captain America is more of a one time thing, therefore if it hasn't happened often it really is just for that issue.

(And no him and Superman do not use kicks.)

 

9. Your whole Place Goku in even footing is getting tiring, thats like saying put the Lion on even footing with a Cheetah, of course the Cheetah would be faster as he is evolved to be faster, it's not really fair to say that, chi is energy and as long as people have energy (which everyone does even Superman and etc.) Goku can sense it, therefore still be able to react to attacks, as well as he has focused his mind to be one with his body and energy. Goku is the ultimate MMA fighter, not just a fighter with a belt)

 

10. Lastly I want to conclude that while I know what you are saying, you take all of DBZ literal and yet don't with Marvel and DC, meaning that you post one scan of Roshi saying I have nothing to teach you, but fail to recognize that or just don't want to acknowledge that DB is a martial arts anime, not a super hero cartoon that has a few martial artist. I get it, you like Batman and not so much DBZ, but still, you have a very specific view of what skills are. Skills are found everywhere, and so is natural attributes, plus mental. Goku has a strong mind, his determination is absolute, his power is a result of his training, which includes practicing kicks, punches, grabs, throws (if you watch the show you see him doing that vs Broly as an example) the physical part is just to solidify that it actually does damage to people and not just look like Krillin does when he attacks Cell.

 

Oh and earlier you said the manga had no mention of Krillin and Gohan fighting on the astral plane, here it is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0h4bIN25bI

 

 

also what are they doing, they are punching and kicking and practicing that, not just doing push ups and climbing poles

(they do that too, as to make it a complete workout )

 

 

good shit, have a great night and hope to read your reply Sirmethos

(You have to admit this is me not being a fanboy just me being a counter arguer, I think there is a difference, and fun)

[IKA]

Okay, I have clearly shown myself as a DBZ fanboy but, let's be serious DBZ is NOT on god level. Kai's ARE the gds of the Z universe, but they aren't very powerful at all, Goku at SSJ1 was more powerful then King Kai, and SSJ2's are more powerful than the SUPREME KAI!

 

The Kai's are more like gaurdians than anything.

 

That aside, Smitheros almost always sides against DBZ and Anu has no idea what he is talking about.

 

That being said, I still side with Janemba.

[IKA]

Also, Smitheros, Goku is a martial artist, I believe he is close to Batman in hand to hand, but Batman would win as he is fast witted. Karate Kid would decimate Goku in hand to hand assuming no powers were in play, but Goku vs say Superman in hand to hand, Supes wouldn't stand a chance. Goku has been trained by the best martial artists and no not just with ki and strength, Tao even stated that his fighting stance was flawless.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Tao even stated that his fighting stance was flawless.

 

Just because I can execute a ballerina stance flawlessly does not mean I'm additionally flawless at ballet. Just because I can baste a chicken without trouble doesn't mean I'm a chef free from the pitfalls of culinary malfeasance. And creating a plaster-cast of David does not make me Michealangelo.

 

You get the idea.

 

I hope.

[Guest Pymp]

Marvel that's somewhat true, in this case Goku is not just someone who knows stances he knows how to counter you, he is skill enough to contend with any fighter.

 

I wouldnt be surprised if Goku was in DC he would not only master what Batman has, but a lot faster as well.

 

[C.T.]

Smitheros

 

Best Typo Ever.

[Guest I LOL'D]

I lol'd.

[Callisto]

Match Final Results

USER RATINGS

D

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B

SCORE

Darkseid: 9

Janemba: 17

FPA: 2.0

 

[Guest sirmethos]

"More fighting is more experience, but not more skill"

 

That's true. We're finally starting to agree on a few things here.

 

 

"fact homie, you can be in school for 8 years and still not be smarter than someone who went for 4 years"

 

True again, there are things like natural talent, intelligence, and the amount of work you put into it, that play a factor as well.

 

 

"more skill doesn't mean better, since skill is just a fraction of what determines a win in a real fight"

 

Again, true. And I've even said exactly that in one of my earlier posts. However, skill is one of the large factors, just like experience is. But ruthlessness, physical capabilities(strength, speed, etc.), and mental capabilities(intelligence being the primary one) are also factors with varying degree of importance. And some 'good' things can outweigh the 'bad'. For example, a skilled and experienced fighter can beat an unskilled and unexperienced, but stronger opponent.

 

 

 

"I train a lot, I do a lot of sparring which by definition I am more skilled than you"

 

Most likely true, I haven't done any regular training or sparring in quite a while.

 

 

"but in reality it could be that you knock me out fast, I doubt you train, but if we both did equally it would come down to pure power/speed and other physical aspects and not skill."

 

If we both trained equally, skill would still be a factor, as well as experience. Chances are that we don't know the exact same styles, that we don't have the exact same level of intelligence, etc. We don't have the same mindset, so I most likely get different things out of training than you do(skill-wise). It would also come down to strategy/tacticts, ruthlessness, etc. It's never about "pure power/speed and other physical aspects".

 

 

 

"Croc is not skilled at all, never has been,"

 

Not true, as I already pointed out, he is an experienced wrestler and street fighter.

 

 

 

"sure he is stronger, but ifI recall Batman uses his gadgets and tech almost as much if not more than him actually fighting Croc."

 

In dragonball, they use energy blasts almost as much, if not more, than actually fighting. Does that mean their fights don't count either?

 

 

"Count Recoome as he whooped him good, still counts."

 

Not so much. The only thing he did, was put an elbow in Recoome's stomach, then he(recoome) was down. That =/= a fight.

 

We can count it if you really want, but if we start counting every time Batman has even landed a punch on someone as a fight, then the numbers just start getting ridiculous.

 

 

"Also Goku has fought Pei Pei, Yajirobe (when he was small), and a few more, I count it all as you are trying to name his wins or fights, but you exclude most of them"

 

As I already said, I started counting from Raditz' arrival. And I haven't excluded any wins from that point. The reason that I started counting at that point, is that there are a lot of feats from DBZ(i.e. from Raditz' arrival and up) that contradict stuff that happened in DB(before Raditz' arrival). For example, Goku's strength in DB is impressive, with the rock pushing feat at the end of Roshi's training. While later on(when he is supposedly hundreds of times stronger than he was back then) he has trouble moving while wearing only 40 tons.

 

 

 

"Vegeta was a stalemate but Goku was the weaker opponent and if you can say that Batman beating Croc is legit than Goku having never fought someone like him was almost able to defeat him, plus that was the plot so that he can be motivated to train harder."

 

Batman has defeated Croc? Yes.

Goku defeated Vegeta? No.

 

simple as that.

 

 

"Again you say more skill equals better, when it's not true. Batman loses to the Joker until he uses his tech, does that mean more skilled?"

 

No, I haven't said that "more skill equals better".

 

I said that if you trained on your own, and I got formal training(for the same amount of time), then I would be better in terms of pure skill, i.e. then I would be more skilled. Which is true.

 

 

 

"Fights (in reference to your reply about Karate Kid)aren't just experience and skill it's also ability and Goku's abilities (minus chi) which means Karate Kid has no chi, would still be a human that is fighting a sayjin (which still has the ability you gain experience and become stronger with each fight. You forget to mention that Goku learns techs instantly and even if Karate Kid had the upper hand it would be for a few seconds"

 

I assume by "ability" you mean natural talent. And that's true. But when it comes to that, Karate Kid also has Goku beat. Karate Kid is... what, maybe 20 years old. And has mastered several hundred(if not thousand) styles. You don't react that level, that fast, without having talent in spades.

 

 

 

"The majority of his training is to become stronger which will allow his skills to be backed up by power, which if you don't know is a factor in a fight."

 

I assume you're talking about Goku here, in which case that's definitely true. Almost all of his training is purely focused on getting stronger, i.e. raising his power level, and learning new Ki techniques.

 

 

"Take Bruce Lee vs Anderson Silva, You can argue that Bruce is a better skilled fighter, but I can promise that SIlva would whomp on him"

 

Debatable. And definitely a debate I would be willing to take up. Bruce Lee is not just more skilled, he also has more natural talent, as well as other factors in his advantage.

 

 

"and Silva is probably more skilled as he has trained in something Bruce never did (BJJ) and he just is stronger and taller, more reach etc."

 

Bruce Lee was trained in Wing Chun, which is something that Silva never did. Bruce Lee studied a ton of different styles, incorporating things into Jeet Kune Do.

 

Silva also trained in Tae Kwon Do, which I believe you called "useless" earlier. He has also trained in Capoeira, which is even more useless than TKD.

 

If you're honestly saying(and believing) that Silva is more skilled than Bruce Lee, then I gotta say that your claim of knowledge about fighting/martial arts, is pretty much bull.

 

Silva is definitely good, but he's not that good.

 

 

 

"Oh and Thor, you say he is more skilled, but there is no proof that he has trained,"

 

Again, not true.

 

 

 

"There is no proof that he has actual skill. Beating Captain America is more of a one time thing, therefore if it hasn't happened often it really is just for that issue."

 

Thor losing his powers wasn't just for one issue, no.

 

Want proof of his skills, try reading the entire period where he had lost his powers. Or his fight against Beta Ray Bill, or one of his battles against the Frost Giants, or his fight against Desak(the Godslayer), or any number of his fights against opponents that are actually close to his own physical power.

 

 

 

"Your whole Place Goku in even footing is getting tiring, thats like saying put the Lion on even footing with a Cheetah, of course the Cheetah would be faster as he is evolved to be faster, it's not really fair to say that,"

 

I do that to make a comparison that is based on skill, instead of raw superior power.

 

If you take away Superman's powers, he would get his arse handed to him by the majority of street level characters, because they are simply better fighters.

 

Likewise, if you take away Goku's powers, he would lose in a straight up fight to Batman or Karate Kid. There are plenty of people that Goku would still defeat, because yes, he is a good fighter. He just isn't at the same level as the top fighters from Marvel and DC, that rely purely on their combat skills, unlike Goku who for a large part, relies on superior power to win his fights.

 

 

 

 

"Lastly I want to conclude that while I know what you are saying, you take all of DBZ literal and yet don't with Marvel and DC"

 

Not so much, I take DBZ, Marvel, DC, Star Wars, and any other universe, in the same way.

 

In DBZ, we are never directly told that the characters are highly skilled fighters. They use terms like "strong" and "powerful" instead. And for the most part, we are not given any real information about their training, but are left to spectulate.

 

In Marvel and DC, we are directly told that various characters are extremely skilled, and are even given details on their skills, and even information about what kind of training they have recieved.

 

In Star Wars, to use a different example, we are also directly told that various characters are highly skilled, and given information about what kind of training they've recieved, and details on their skills.

 

 

 

"meaning that you post one scan of Roshi saying I have nothing to teach you, but fail to recognize that or just don't want to acknowledge that DB is a martial arts anime, not a super hero cartoon that has a few martial artist."

 

So because it's a martial arts anime, "I have nothing to teach you" actually means something else? Not so much. It's a pretty direct statement.

 

After showing them methods to get stronger/faster/more powerful, as well as a few Ki techniques, he has nothing more to teach. No martial arts, no hand-to-hand combat skills, nothing that, in any way, can translate to actual combat skills outside of the DBZ universe.

 

 

"I get it, you like Batman and not so much DBZ,"

 

Actually, not so much. I think Batman is a boring, and flat character, whose only saving grace is a few interesting villains. I've never been a fan of Batman by any stretch. On the other hand, I was an avid fan of DBZ for several years, resulting in my now being the owner of the entire Manga.

 

 

 

"but still, you have a very specific view of what skills are."

 

Not true.

 

 

"Skills are found everywhere, and so is natural attributes, plus mental."

 

That's true. Combat skills, not so much.

 

 

 

"Goku has a strong mind, his determination is absolute, his power is a result of his training, which includes practicing kicks, punches, grabs, throws (if you watch the show you see him doing that vs Broly as an example) the physical part is just to solidify that it actually does damage to people and not just look like Krillin does when he attacks Cell."

 

Partially true. I've bolded the part that isn't completely accurate.

1. There is no 'purely physical' part of Goku's training. All of his training to get stronger/more powerful, is aimed at increasing hi Ki, which he uses to increase his physical strength, speed, etc.

 

And the majority of his fights are won because of superior power, not because of being the better fighter.

 

 

"Oh and earlier you said the manga had no mention of Krillin and Gohan fighting on the astral plane, here it is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0h4bIN25bI "

 

And I was right. There is no mention of the Astral Plane, or training on the Astral Plane, anywhere in the vid.

They call what they are doing "image training", I haven't been able to find anywhere, an explanation on what that is.

 

 

 

"also what are they doing, they are punching and kicking and practicing that, not just doing push ups and climbing poles

(they do that too, as to make it a complete workout )"

 

That's true, and I've never said otherwise.

 

 

 

"You have to admit this is me not being a fanboy just me being a counter arguer, I think there is a difference, and fun"

 

More like a mix of the two. But definitely amusing, yes.

 

"Smitheros almost always sides against DBZ and Anu has no idea what he is talking about."

 

1. Not true. Put the Z fighters in a match they would actually win, and I'll be the first to debate for them.

2. True.

 

"Also, Smitheros, Goku is a martial artist, I believe he is close to Batman in hand to hand, but Batman would win as he is fast witted."

 

No, Goku is a fighter. Being a Martial Artist would require knowing actual martial arts(i.e. at least one close-combat style), which he doesn't. And Batman would win in a straight up fight, yes.

 

"Marvel that's somewhat true, in this case Goku is not just someone who knows stances he knows how to counter you, he is skill enough to contend with any fighter.

 

I wouldnt be surprised if Goku was in DC he would not only master what Batman has, but a lot faster as well."

 

Yea, that's your fanboy side talking right there.

[DamagingRob]

Match Final Results

USER RATINGS

D

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B

SCORE

Darkseid: 9

Janemba: 17

FPA: 2.0

The love judge strikes again.

[IKA]

"Also, Smitheros, Goku is a martial artist, I believe he is close to Batman in hand to hand, but Batman would win as he is fast witted."

 

No, Goku is a fighter. Being a Martial Artist would require knowing actual martial arts(i.e. at least one close-combat style), which he doesn't. And Batman would win in a straight up fight, yes.

 

 

No Sirmethos, He WAS TRAINED in martial arts by Grandpa Gohan as well as Master Roshi and Po Po. Hence why he stands in theat weird ass position. That would also be why he was able to contend with the likes of Vegeta which far exceeded him and has years of being trained.

[Guest sirmethos]

"No Sirmethos, He WAS TRAINED in martial arts by Grandpa Gohan as well as Master Roshi and Po Po. Hence why he stands in theat weird ass position. That would also be why he was able to contend with the likes of Vegeta which far exceeded him and has years of being trained."

 

We have absolutely no information about what he learned from his Grandpa. He didn't learn any martial arts from Roshi, nor from Popo. From Roshi he learned how to get stronger and surpass the limits of his body. From Popo he learned greater control of his Ki(sensing Ki, and improved on the Kamehameha Wave).

 

From his showings in the various fights in DB and progressing in DBZ, the only thing he learned from his Grandpa was a few punches and kicks. His fighting style doesn't start getting more technical until later on, when he has faced some opponents with at least some technical skills.

 

 

If your dad shows you a few punches and kicks, and you then go out and use them in fights, that does not make you a martial artist. Likewise, Goku is not a martial artist(his grandpa, when he fights him in the tournament, doesn't particularly show much in terms of skills either, though more than Goku), he is a fighter. And a pretty talented one at that. Give him a year or two of training under Batman's tutelage, or Wolverine, or Stick, and he would be extremely dangerous, even without raw superior power. But as it is, any of the upper-tier martial artists would wipe the floor with him, without his raw superior power.

[Guest silversurfer092]

I always stalk anu's posts because I want to troll him and whatnot, but whenever DBZ comes up, his posts always stupefy me so much, I just can't come up with a good trolling reply. I'm honestly dumbfounded to the point of speechlessness.