Divine Spawn vs Thanos w/Infinity Gauntlet vs White Phoenix of the Crown

[Guest Classic80s]

vs vs

 

 

 

 

I'm not even gunna try and write a scenario for a match like this. So basically, I'll just let you guys answer as to what you think would happen if these three were to fight; how their levels of power rank; the outcome of their battle; etc.

 

But it would certainly be interesting to see.

[Guest skadoosh]

Is Divine Spawn just another name for God Spawn, the level he reaches at the end of the comic book series?

[Guest Classic80s]

Yeah, I believe so.

[Guest skadoosh]

Then he very possibly wins this.

[Guest Classic80s]

It's cool to know that these three beings actually possess absolute power, inferior only to LT & HOTU/TOAA. But what happens when absolute power clashes with absolute power and all three are determined to either eradicate or usurp the other?

 

 

That's what I want to figure out.

[Guest skadoosh]

Well, Spawn, at his most powerful, destroyed then re-created the entire universe, and defeated the Devil and God, which, as far as i know, is above anything Thanos and the Phoenix have done, but then again, i don't know much about the Infinity Gauntlet or this specific version of the Phoenix.

[Guest Classic80s]

Well, I think if Thanos had wanted to destroy the entire universe and re-create it, he could. I'm inclinded to believe the Phoenix Force could too. Essentially, from my understanding, the only things superior to the Infinity Gauntlet are The Living Tribunal, The Heart of the Universe, and the One Above All. But same could be said for the Phoenix Force.

[Guest force_echo]

There's only one entity stronger than Divine Spawn.

[Guest skadoosh]

Which is?

[kainboa]

Actually, there's several.

 

Since God spawn is less powerful than the Mother, who gave him his power, he is not Omnipotent, which means that every entity that is Omnipotent, is more powerful.

[Guest sirmethos]

I think he meant in his own multiverse.

 

As opposed to Thanos with IG, and the White Phoenix, who have several people higher on the ladder than themselves in the Marvel multiverse.

[Guest skadoosh]

Makes sense, although Spawn does an awful lot of omnipotent-y things in God-form, so i'm not sure it makes much of a difference in this fight.

[Guest Justabox]

White Phoenix is multiversal no?

 

If all God Spawn did was destroy and recreate the universe, I think she has him beat.

[Guest skadoosh]

Ooh, ok, interesting...

[Guest BerryBlu]

But Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet could whipe the Phoenix Force itself out completely from his own universe, thus he wins there. As for battling Divine Spawn, I'm not sure. But the I.G. is right at the top of most-powerful-things-ever in Marvel. Only a select few things are superior to it, such as TLT & TOAA. But otherwise, it sits right at third place in terms of power. (Not counting things like Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Pre-Retcon Molecule Man)

 

 

If the Thanos wanted to travel from universe to universe within the Marvel Multiverse, with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet, he certainly could. Although he never really left the 616 reality, that doesn't mean he couldn't.

 

I mean, if I'm stuck in a glass house with a sledge hammer and I only use it to bash things within that specific house, that doesn't mean I couldnt necessarily break out of that house and go into another and cause harm there. It just means I focused my efforts on the house I was in.

[Guest sirmethos]

"Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet could whipe the Phoenix Force itself out completely from his own universe"

 

Not true. He couldn't even do that with the Heart of the Universe, which is almost infinitely more powerful than the Infinity Gauntlet. He could only knock it back temporarily. Part of the Infinity Gauntlet's own power comes from the Phoenix Force.

 

 

"the I.G. is right at the top of most-powerful-things-ever in Marvel. the I.G. is right at the top of most-powerful-things-ever in Marvel. Only a select few things are superior to it, such as TLT & TOAA. But otherwise, it sits right at third place in terms of power"

 

Again, not quite true. It's one of the most powerful items in the Marvel universe, that much is true, but there are several entities that are considerably more powerful. The Phoenix Force being one of them.

 

 

"If the Thanos wanted to travel from universe to universe within the Marvel Multiverse, with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet, he certainly could."

 

Once again, not true. The Infinity Gauntlet only works in the 616 universe. There is a version of the Infinity Gauntlet in each universe. The Phoenix Force, in comparison, is a Multiversal Cosmic Entity.

 

The best showing from Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, was defeating the Universal Eternity. The Phoenix Force is up there in power with the Multiversal Eternity. The Phoenix Force is also literally impossible to kill/destroy.

[Guest xman4life]

well no thats not completely true. Thanos DID destroy the universe then recreated it. But TOAA allowed it to happen to teach him a lesson.

[Guest sirmethos]

When did I ever say that he didn't destroy the universe? Even the multiverse? What I said was that he couldn't wipe the Phoenix Force out, which is simply the truth.

[Guest BerryBlu]

Where is it ever stated that the Phoenix Force powers the I.G.? WIthin the 616 universe, the I.G. is supreme. The Power Gem is equal to all the power that ever has or ever will exist combined within that universe. In other words, it's absolutely powerful. Same with the other five gems. They are absolutely powerful. The Mind Gem is the most powerful psyonic item there is. Backed by the power gem, it > the Phoenix Force in psyonic power. Within the 616 universe, the person who wears the Infinity Gauntlet > the Avatar of the Phoenix Force.

 

Where does it say that the I.G. can't function outside the 616 universe? The only place I recall it not working was the DC universe, but that's a totally different company, so it doesn't even count. If the I.G. person wanted to will a portal open to a different universe (reality gem) and go there (space gem) they could. If the I.G. person wanted to eradicate the Phoenix Force from existence within the 616 reality, they could. Basically, he who controls the I.G. = his will is law.

 

(What if Thanos w/ I.G. wanted to go to the Chaos Dimension and f*** with Shuma-Gortha? What if he wanted to go to the Crimson Cosmos and mess with Cyttorak? Are you saying he couldn't?)

 

 

BS that the HOTU could not shut down the Phoenix Force. HOTU = TOAA's power. Within the 616 Universe, if the person with the I.G. wanted shut out the Phoenix Force from the 616 reality, it could. Within the multiverse, if the person with the HOTU power wanted to eradicate the Phoenix Force altogether, but allow everything else to keep on living, they could. He who has the HOTU = Supreme. Equal to TOAA himself.

[Guest sirmethos]

"Where is it ever stated that the Phoenix Force powers the I.G.?"

 

Stated directly by Marvel: "The Phoenix Force the source of all psionic energy that is, has been and ever will be in the multiverse." The Mind Gem uses Psionic Energy, thus, that power comes from the Phoenix Force.

 

 

"WIthin the 616 universe, the I.G. is supreme."

 

Again, not true. You're on a roll.

 

The Infinity Gauntlet has proven itself to be a Universal power(and a high level one at that), but there are several Multiversal powers in the 616 universe. Those are all more powerful than the I.G. And has the feats to back it up.

 

As I already mentioned earlier, the best feat from the I.G. is defeating the Universal Eternity(rather easily). There are several beings and people in the 616 universe who could do the same.

 

Genis-Vell when he went insane, destroyed the Multiversal Eternity. That is far more powerful than anything shown from the Infinity Gauntlet. The Phoenix Force is another Multiversal entity. There is only a small handful of beings and items in the multiverse that are more powerful than the full power of the Phoenix Force. And the Infinity Gauntlet is not one of them.

 

 

"The Mind Gem is the most powerful psyonic item there is."

 

This much is true, but only in the 616 universe. I.e. only a small fraction of the Phoenix Force's power.

 

 

"Backed by the power gem, it > the Phoenix Force in psyonic power."

 

Again, not true.

 

Backed by the Power Gem(that allows the user to access all power that is and ever has been, in the 616 universe), it is still only Universal. Again, only a fraction of the Phoenix Force's full power.

 

 

"Within the 616 universe, the person who wears the Infinity Gauntlet > the Avatar of the Phoenix Force."

 

Again, not true(that's starting to get boring to repeat).

 

The person who wears the Infinity Gauntlet, is only supreme in the 616 universe. I.e. the strongest Universal power. As already mentioned, there are several beings and people(and one or two items for that matter) that are considerably more powerful than the Infinity Gauntlet.

 

 

"Where does it say that the I.G. can't function outside the 616 universe?"

 

There is an Infinity Gauntlet for every universe in Marvel. Not 1 Infinity Gauntlet for the entire Multiverse. Each Infinity Gauntlet is supreme in its own universe, and only draws on the power in that specific universe.

 

 

"so it doesn't even count. If the I.G. person wanted to will a portal open to a different universe (reality gem) and go there (space gem) they could."

 

Wrong, again.

 

The wearer of the Infinity Gauntlet could open portals to other Realms(Mephisto's realm, Darkforce realm, etc.). But there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it could travel to other Realities.

 

 

"If the I.G. person wanted to eradicate the Phoenix Force from existence within the 616 reality, they could. Basically, he who controls the I.G. = his will is law."

 

Yea, except for the fact that the Phoenix Force could simply withdraw to the White Hot Room, where the Infinity Gauntlet is useless, then take away the lifeforce of the person wielding it, backwards in time. Effectively killing him before he was born. There is absolutely nothing that the Infinity Gauntlet wearer could do to prevent it.

 

Or completely mess up the mind of the wearer, so he can't actually use the Gauntlet. Or protect itself against the powers of the Infinity Gauntlet, by drawing power from the entire Multiverse.

 

 

"What if Thanos w/ I.G. wanted to go to the Chaos Dimension and f*** with Shuma-Gortha? What if he wanted to go to the Crimson Cosmos and mess with Cyttorak? Are you saying he couldn't?"

 

Those are all part of the 616 universe, just different realms within the universe.

 

 

"BS that the HOTU could not shut down the Phoenix Force."

 

With the HotU, Thanos destroyed the entire Multiverse. Except you know, the few places that are outside of the Multiverse, which is why Adam Warlock survived, because he was in a place that the HotU couldn't reach. The same goes for the White Hot Room, that is the home of the Phoenix Force, and a few other places.

 

 

"HOTU = TOAA's power."

 

Oh really? That is never said, anywhere. Though if you can prove it, I'm more than willing to be convinced. But the most powerful showing we have of the HotU, shows less power than that of TOAA.

 

 

"Within the 616 Universe, if the person with the I.G. wanted shut out the Phoenix Force from the 616 reality, it could."

 

Wrong, again...

 

I believe I already addressed this. The Infinity Gauntlet = Universal. The Phoenix Force = Multiversal.

 

Saying that the Infinity Gauntlet could take out the Phoenix Force, because it is the most powerful item in the 616 universe, is like saying that Xavier could mindwipe Thanos or Galactus, because he's the most powerful Telepath on Earth. I.e. absolutely ridiculous.

 

 

"Within the multiverse, if the person with the HOTU power wanted to eradicate the Phoenix Force altogether, but allow everything else to keep on living, they could."

 

And again, wrong. Thanos actually tried to destroy the entire Multiverse. But there were places that he couldn't destroy, that are outside of space-time. That was, as I mentioned earlier, why Adam Warlock survived. The White Hot Room is also one of those places.

 

 

"He who has the HOTU = Supreme. Equal to TOAA himself."

 

What do you know, wrong again.

 

Thanos himself, while wielding the HotU, said that there was a being with "far greater power" than what he himself had with the HotU. And that that being had guided him to acquiring the HotU and to his actions while wielding it. That being = TOAA. i.e. HotU <<< TOAA.

 

 

 

If you want to seem like you know what you're talking about, you should make sure that you have at least a few facts straight.

[Guest BerryBlu]

Yea, except for the fact that the Phoenix Force could simply withdraw to the White Hot Room, where the Infinity Gauntlet is useless, then take away the lifeforce of the person wielding it, backwards in time. Effectively killing him before he was born. There is absolutely nothing that the Infinity Gauntlet wearer could do to prevent it

 

Except you cant just go back in time and kill the I.G. weilder before he was born. He is time. The Space Gem makes you omnipresent in the universe; the same with the Time Gem. Only omnipresent in time. And with the Soul and Reality Gems, they could easily stop this from happening.

 

If a being who is absolutely powerful in the universe wills a multiversal force away and banishes from that reality, how could it come back? The power of the Gauntlet would keep it out.

 

Oh really? That is never said, anywhere. Though if you can prove it, I'm more than willing to be convinced. But the most powerful showing we have of the HotU, shows less power than that of TOAA.

 

It is stated in the Marvel database that the HOTU was powerful enough to overthrow The Living Tribunal and that it is implied to be the direct power of TOAA. The Marvel Database also says there are only TWO known beings whose power exceeds that of the Gauntlet.... The Living Tribunal & TOAA. No where does it mention the Phoenix Force.

 

And the reason the HOTU did not destroy the White Hot Room is most likely because of TOAA's direct involvement with the situation. He would not allow it. Destroying the White Hot Room was not apart of his master plan.

 

I have yet to find any evidence that says there is a I.G. for every universe or that it couldn't be multiversal if someone used it to the maximum of it's potential. Take Adam Warlock. He would be someone who could really explore the potential of the Gauntlet to its absolute. Just because Thanos focused on 616 doesn't mean he couldn't have went bigger if he'd wanted to.

 

I know The Living Tribunal shut off the I.G. with a snap of his fingers

 

 

So, until proven wrong with actual facts from Marvel, I maintain that the Infinity Gauntlet wielder is superior to the avatar of the Phoenix Force.

 

And here's why.... six different reasons why:

 

Soul - Change the soul of the wielder of the phoenix force to no longer be an enemy.

Mind - Corrupt the mind of the wielder so that they become a vegetable.

Time - Stop time and defeat the wielder while they are unable to do anything.

Space - Send the wielder into a black hole or any number of dangerous spacial anomalies.

Reality - Change the way the Phoenix force works and make the wielder have no power.

Power - This may be a point of contention - However that said the Power gem to my understanding can absorb/channel/create energy and thus Anything the phoenix force did would be unable to affect the user of the gauntlet. And if the user wished to create a shield to withstand any attack then that shield would never fail due to the property that the gem is constantly creating the energy needed to sustain the shield.

[Guest BerryBlu]

And just to throw it out there.... what's your opinion on Divine Spawn vs White Phoenix of the Crown?

[Guest sirmethos]

"I have yet to find any evidence that says there is a I.G. for every universe or that it couldn't be multiversal if someone used it to the maximum of it's potential."

 

Read the Council of Reeds, there are 3 of the different versions of Reed Richards that each have an Infinity Gauntlet from their own universe(and they don't work in the 616 universe). There is also an Infinity Gauntlet seen in the Ultimate Universe.

 

As I said, the Infinity Gauntlet is a purely Universal force.

 

 

"It is stated in the Marvel database that the HOTU was powerful enough to overthrow The Living Tribunal and that it is implied to be the direct power of TOAA. The Marvel Database also says there are only TWO known beings whose power exceeds that of the Gauntlet.... The Living Tribunal & TOAA. No where does it mention the Phoenix Force."

 

The Marvel Database is a wiki, it can be edited by anyone. -.-

 

If you want, I can make the Database tell you that Santa Clause is the "greater power" that was guiding Thanos through the events with the HotU -.-

 

 

"And the reason the HOTU did not destroy the White Hot Room is most likely because of TOAA's direct involvement with the situation. He would not allow it. Destroying the White Hot Room was not apart of his master plan."

 

Pure speculation. Wanna try again?

 

"Except you cant just go back in time and kill the I.G. weilder before he was born. He is time. The Space Gem makes you omnipresent in the universe; the same with the Time Gem. Only omnipresent in time. And with the Soul and Reality Gems, they could easily stop this from happening."

 

No, the Time Gem does not make you "omnipresent in time". It gives you control of time. There is a small, but distinct, difference.

 

You only have to read the Infinity Gauntlet Saga to see that Or even the "Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet" mini-series. It seems though, that either you haven't actually read either of those, or you were hoping I hadn't.

 

 

"If a being who is absolutely powerful in the universe wills a multiversal force away and banishes from that reality, how could it come back? The power of the Gauntlet would keep it out."

 

And which being would that be? Any wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet would not fit the description of "absolutely powerful". The very fact that the I.G. does not make the wielder Omnipotent, show that.

 

What you're basically saying is: How would a powerful being, keep an even more powerful being out. The simple answer is: It wouldn't. The more powerful being could simply force its way back in. In this particular case, the powerful being would be the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet, while the "even more powerful being" would be the Phoenix Force.

 

Again: Infinity Gauntlet = Universal. Phoenix Force = Multiversal.

 

 

 

"So, until proven wrong with actual facts from Marvel, I maintain that the Infinity Gauntlet wielder is superior to the avatar of the Phoenix Force."

 

Fact 1: There is Infinity Gauntlets in each universe, that only works in their own universe. As shown in the Council of Reeds.

 

Fact 2: "The Phoenix Force the source of all psionic energy that is, has been and ever will be in the multiverse.". Stated directly by Marvel. The Mind Gem uses Psionic Energy. 'nuff said.

 

 

"Soul - Change the soul of the wielder of the phoenix force to no longer be an enemy.

Mind - Corrupt the mind of the wielder so that they become a vegetable.

Time - Stop time and defeat the wielder while they are unable to do anything.

Space - Send the wielder into a black hole or any number of dangerous spacial anomalies.

Reality - Change the way the Phoenix force works and make the wielder have no power."

 

I honestly don't think you could have thought of a better way to show, in a way that removes any doubt, that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

The Phoenix Force doesn't have a "wielder". The Phoenix Force is a sentient entity in and of itself. Just like Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Death, etc.

 

If you read the OP, we are not dealing with an Avatar of the Phoenix Force, wielding a portion of its power. We are dealing with the actual Phoenix Force itself.

 

 

That, and the very fact that you use that as your primary source, shows that you don't know what you're talking about. I believe that concludes this debate.

 

 

"Power - This may be a point of contention - However that said the Power gem to my understanding can absorb/channel/create energy and thus Anything the phoenix force did would be unable to affect the user of the gauntlet. And if the user wished to create a shield to withstand any attack then that shield would never fail due to the property that the gem is constantly creating the energy needed to sustain the shield."

 

Universal vs. Multiversal.

 

The Power Gem only wields the power/energy from 1 universe. The Phoenix Force is the nexux of all psionic energy that is, has been, and ever will be, in the entire multiverse. It is also the source of all life that is, has been, and ever will be, in the entire multiverse.

 

 

That said, as I already pointed out, I believe this debate is over. You don't know what you're talking about, thus there is no reason to continue.

 

 

 

"And just to throw it out there.... what's your opinion on Divine Spawn vs White Phoenix of the Crown?"

 

No idea. I don't know enough about Divine Spawn to give an informed opinion. And unlike others, I don't give an input, unless I actually know what I'm talking about.

[Guest BerryBlu]

The Wielder of the Phoenix Force is the same thing as the Avatar of the Phoenix Force. Just another way of describing it.

 

 

And it's also been said that the being who was once the Infinity Gauntlet (when he killed himself, what was left over of him became the gems) was the actual ebodiment of the 616 universe itself. Thus, the wielder of the I.G. is absolute within the 616 universe. There, his will is law. He he wants to lock the Phoenix Force out of his realm, he could. In 616, he is omnipresent.

 

 

I know you keep going back to Universal vs Multiversal, which is a totally valid argument, but all in all, it is only ever stated that the Infinity Gauntlet is inferior to LT & TOAA. So, until I see a screen cap where it definitively states that the Phoenix Force > the I.G. then the I.G. is superior in the 616 universe. Just because one being is broader than the other doesn't mean theyre necessarily superior.

[Guest sirmethos]

"The Wielder of the Phoenix Force is the same thing as the Avatar of the Phoenix Force. Just another way of describing it."

 

That's true, and neither is present in this match.

 

 

"And it's also been said that the being who was once the Infinity Gauntlet (when he killed himself, what was left over of him became the gems) was the actual ebodiment of the 616 universe itself."

 

No, it is not said that Nemesis was the actual embodiment of the 616 universe. That is Eternity/Infinity. In fact, the only thing known about Nemesis for sure, is that he/she was a cosmic level being before he/she died and fractured into the Infinity Gems. Though he/she claims to have existed before creation itself.

 

That doesn't make him/her anymore powerful though.

 

Eternity/Infinity was created the exact moment that the universe was created, and has always been the embodiment of the universe. And Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet was able to defeat him. There are also several other beings in the 616 universe that has proven capable of that, or even more impressive feats(Gens-Vell being a good example).

 

There are beings that have straight up been proven to be more powerful than anything we have seen from the Infinity Gauntlet(Genis-Vell, among others). So the claim that the Infinity Gauntlet is the most powerful thing, even in the 616 universe, is pure bullshit.

 

 

"In 616, he is omnipresent."

 

Again, not so much.

 

He can make himself omnipresent, that much is true, but as a default, he isn't. Forsaking his physical body to make himself omnipresent was what Thanos did, and it left his body vulnerable. That is how he lost the Gauntlet.

 

The wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet is still mortal, just an extremely powerful mortal. And the Phoenix Force can kill him(or her) simply by removing the life force from him/her. Considering that the Phoenix Force is the source of all life, that would be extremely easy to do.

 

 

"I know you keep going back to Universal vs Multiversal, which is a totally valid argument, but all in all, it is only ever stated that the Infinity Gauntlet is inferior to LT & TOAA. So, until I see a screen cap where it definitively states that the Phoenix Force > the I.G. then the I.G. is superior in the 616 universe."

 

Tell you what, I'll make it easy for you then

 

Show me a scan/screenshot, that directly says that the Infinity Gauntlet is superior to the Phoenix Force, and I'll concede the argument right away.

 

 

Until you can provide that, all you have is faulty logic that is full of holes.

 

That said, as I already pointed out, I believe this debate is over. I've already proven that you don't know what you're talking about, thus there is no reason to continue.

 

 

Unless you can provide the above mentioned scan/screenshot of course