Achilles (Troy) vs Scar (AVP)

[Guest skadoosh]

That's fair.

 

Scar might even die of blood loss afterwards, if he does win. Same could be said for Achilles.

[RakaiThwei]

What I was getting at is that is Scar raises and arm Achilles could quite possibly stab through the unprotected armpit into the heart. He could land a killing strike up under the chin of Scar directly into the brain.

 

I mentioned that a Xenomorph was able to piece it's barbed tail underneath the shoulder area of Scar in Alien vs Predator and was working it's way through to that particular area to more than likely kill him, obviously it didn't succeed and Scar was still fighting without so much as slowing down. I did acknowledge the latter, however I Scar is fighting one opponent here and not concerned with escaping, he's going to be pretty focused here and rely on whatever skill he's got. That's my point.

 

He could slice through in major arteries or tendons in the legs or arms causing Scar to begin to bleed out, thus affecting him to the degree of slowing him and making Scar an easier target. The predator has vital organs in its body.

 

We don't know where major arteries of the Yautja anatomy are. Either in the arms or in the legs. I do acknowlege that they have vital organs and arteries but where they are, is relatively unknown. We do know that they are extremely durable and we do know that they can take a tremendous amount of punishment. As for bleeding out, it's plausible but their blood is thicker and from what the films and comics have shown us, excluding Rodriguez's PREDATORS which is a different continuity altogether, Yautja don't seem to bleed out as easily as humans do.

 

Its like when the Queen stabbed through the preds center and this incapacitated Scar killing him.

 

That's not exactly an impressive point there. We're not talking about any ordinary Alien Queen like the one we saw in ALIENS, but rather a Queen that was becoming an Empress. Empresses are much bigger and stronger than ordinary Alien Queens. Also, the Queen was able to generate enough force that was further focused by the smallest tip of the barbed tail-- the more force focused into a small focal point, the greater the impact damage. And keep in mind, she pierced through low grade Dlex armoring. An Empress doing that is nothing particularly impressive. And I doubt Achillies can match the force which the Empress was able to create.

 

now dont assume your the only one that knows about Predators. I have read and ownSouth China Sea, Big Game, Cold War, Concrete Jungle, Turnabout, Flesh and Blood, Forever Midnight, AVP Prey, AVP Hunters Planet, AVP War and Batman VS Predator. Ive played Concrete Jungle and AVP. I also own every Predator or AVP movie. So I know a great deal about the character and his limits and such.

 

No, but I've been studying the Yautja for years... since I was in Middle School. I also know the placement of continuity and canon of each of the novels you have mentioned.

 

For one, Forever Midnight and Flesh and Blood are part of an alternate continuity that was created by John Shirely, whom I have spoken to over at another forum, and he has openly acknowledged that he ignored the Yautja mythos and instead created his own mythos called the Hish mythos. In Forever Midnight, the Predators are known as Hish and this is carried over to Flesh and Blood. These books are an alternate continuity and considered generally non-canon with the Yautja mythos.

 

And the Yautja mythos has been made effectively canon by the AvP films.

 

Batman vs Predator-- is considered to be non-canon either by DC Comics and Twentieth Century Fox. General rule of thumb is that for the most part, intercompany crossovers are generally not accepted as canon and are set outside of continuity. So Batman vs Predator is something not to bring up in the future when concerning debates as it's for the most part, non-canon.

 

I do applaud you for reading South China Sea, Big Game, Cold War, Concrete Jungle, Turnabout, AVP: Prey, AVP: Hunters Planet, and AVP: War. Though Hunter's Planet might no longer be canon since Three World War was published by Dark Horse years later. Alien vs Predator: Prey is considered to be the Bible of all things Yautja.

 

I also give you props for playing Concrete Jungle. Why? Well for one, it showed the physical feats and skill of what a Yautja can do when they have achieved their full potential. I mean Scarface was able to lift 16 ton blast doors and the narration of the game backed up that he was stronger than your average Predator.

 

But in the case of Scar, he isn't as strong as Scarface Predator and has a long way to go. As far as strength goes, I'd put Scar in the 2 - 3 ton range.

 

I still believe the Scar would win but it would in no way be easy

 

Something which I've said in my breakdown of this fight.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[G4hardcore]

You know what? I'll pass on this one. Y'all got it covered from the looks of it.

[Guest force_echo]

Achilles is so insanely skilled that in all of his battles (and he's fought his entire life), no one has ever seen him even get hit. Ever. Thus, a legend sprang up that he was invincible. That is a huge gap in skill. Slicing a Pred's exposed arms and legs areas won't kill it, but it'll probably move more sluggishly. Besides, the Predator's entire head is completely uncovered, that's probably where Achilles is going to go. With his spear, and it's superior reach, he probably takes this.

[Guest skadoosh]

We don't know where major arteries of the Yautja anatomy are.

 

We're not talking about any ordinary Alien Queen like the one we saw in ALIENS, but rather a Queen that was becoming an Empress.

 

I doubt Achillies can match the force which the Empress was able to create.

 

As far as strength goes, I'd put Scar in the 2 - 3 ton range.

 

I have a few points and questions about the above.

 

Firstly, there is only so much body for the vital organs of a Yautja to be inside, so if Achilles gets in some decently aimed hits, which is standard for him, he's pretty likely to hit something of at least minor importance. Although he can't do as much damage as he could if he knew exactly where everything was, of course.

 

Secondly, just out of interest, as i was unaware of this apparent little fact, how do you know the Queen in AVP was an Empress?

 

Thirdly, in relation to my first point, while Achilles definitely can't match the force the Queen applied with her tail, he doesn't need to, considering his incredible levels of fighting skills and experience, which will allow him to land at least a few strikes in on the Yautja despite it's body armour.

 

And finally, can you give a feat that proves Scar's strength is in the 2-to-3-ton range, please?

 

Achilles is so insanely skilled that in all of his battles (and he's fought his entire life), no one has ever seen him even get hit. Ever. Thus, a legend sprang up that he was invincible. That is a huge gap in skill. Slicing a Pred's exposed arms and legs areas won't kill it, but it'll probably move more sluggishly. Besides, the Predator's entire head is completely uncovered, that's probably where Achilles is going to go. With his spear, and it's superior reach, he probably takes this.

 

Those are all very good points about Achilles, although Scar's physical superiority and weaponry may cancle out some of them...

[RakaiThwei]

Wow... Thread Necromancy much?

 

Firstly, there is only so much body for the vital organs of a Yautja to be inside, so if Achilles gets in some decently aimed hits, which is standard for him, he's pretty likely to hit something of at least minor importance. Although he can't do as much damage as he could if he knew exactly where everything was, of course.

 

We don't know what organs are inside of a Yautja aside from maybe the organs such as heart, lungs, digestive system and of course the brain. Everything else is pretty much a guessing game. Never the less, the anatomy of the Yautja is vastly different from the human body. We do know that the Yautja have a much different bone structure and even density compared to that of a human being. The musculature is different as well.

 

Secondly, just out of interest, as i was unaware of this apparent little fact, how do you know the Queen in AVP was an Empress?

 

The Queen in ALIENS was relatively two weeks of age at the most and a relatively young Queen, not to mention she was about twelve feet in height when in comparison with the Power Loader that Ellen Ripley was operating. Also, this Queen wasn't as well built as the one seen in Alien vs Predator.

 

The Queen in Alien vs Predator is actually much older and there are subtle differences. For one the Alien Queen was much taller as well, ranging from 24-30 feet in height and she also had ridged spikes on her crown as well, indicating that she was older than the Queen that we saw in Aliens. Also it's very likely that the Yautja clan that was using the pyramids at the time had been keeping that Queen for a long time, bringing her out every one hundred years. She has been kept in cyrogenic status so she wouldn't age past her prime. Those eggs in the past more than like had been laid by her and given her height and more mature appearance, she is likely an Empress.

 

Keep in mind, those pyramids have been there for THOUSANDS of years, and are only re-activated every one hundred years.

 

And finally, can you give a feat that proves Scar's strength is in the 2-to-3-ton range, please?

 

The film doesn't really show Scar lifting much of anything. I only rank Scar in the 2-3 ton range as numerous comics and novels show Young Blooded warriors in that particular range, so it's likely that he is in that range as well based on an average we've seen Young Blooded warriors perform at.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest skadoosh]

Ok, cool, thanks for the confirmation about the Queen and Scar's strength. And as i said, Achilles doesn't need an encyclopedic knowledge of his opoonents body in order to hurt them, although it would help, obviously.

[Indolent]

She wasn't an Empress.

 

The Script explicitly denotes it as just Alien Queen.

 

If anything, it's purely speculation on Rakai's part - it's just an Alien Queen, more so a fully grown one unlike the other Alien Queen from Aliens.

[RakaiThwei]

it's just an Alien Queen, more so a fully grown one unlike the other Alien Queen from Aliens.

 

Which is what an Empress is. Just older Alien Queens, bigger ones too. Which is what the film showed us.

 

Unless you are counting the Aliens Earth Hive comics which show Mother Queens.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest skadoosh]

It sounds like speculation, but it is speculation from a reliable source. As far as i'm concerned it doesn't matter what title you give it, the Queen in AVP was superior to the Queen in Aliens.

 

What's a Mother Queen?

[Indolent]

Then elaborate on why it wasn't denoted as Alien Empress within the Script.

 

And from what I understand - if there's multiple Alien Queens (there most likely were considering there weren't only just one of these things...), only one can become an Alien Empress after proving dominance, because from what I'm understanding - Other Alien Queens are subservient to Empresses.

 

And you also have to take into consideration... this was a Queen in captivity, so odds are, it couldn't do exactly that.

 

And the Queen was superior because she was fully grown. From what I understand, given specific circumstances, a normal Xenomorph will transform into a Queen if necessary (i.e. prior Queen died) - I truly think the same applies to the concept of a Queen becoming an Empress - it's a transformation process.

[RakaiThwei]

What's a Mother Queen?

 

 

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Queen_Mother

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

In all honesty, I'll come out and say it: I think you're trying to make it so it's an Alien Empress in order to blow up the feat of penetrating the Low Grade Dlex a bit more, i.e. in that it "looks" and "sounds" better.

[Guest skadoosh]

I was under the same impression, concerning a Queen's necessary transformation into anything more.

 

And that just looks like a slightly different version of a standard Queen.

[RakaiThwei]

Then elaborate on why it wasn't denoted as Alien Empress within the Script.

 

Because the script writer, Shane Salerno doesn't know what the difference between an Empress and an Alien Queen is. Not that there is much of a difference because the two are really interchangeable as a an Empress is just an Alien Queen but older, taller, stronger and more intelligent.

 

And from what I understand - if there's multiple Alien Queens (there most likely were considering there weren't only just one of these things...), only one can become an Alien Empress after proving dominance, because from what I'm understanding - Other Alien Queens are subservient to Empresses.

 

It sounds like that you got this information from Xenopedia which I might add that is not at all a reliable source. I have actually spoken to a former administrator, Drakhand006, of Xenopedia and he has confirmed to me that the place is full of misinformation and down right fanon information. I am not a Xenomorph expert, more of a Yautja expert so really you are asking the wrong person.

 

However according to Monolith's Alien vs Predator 2 game storyline, an Empress can also be the result of a Queen simply aging to an old enough age where she has matured to a point where she eventually does become an Empress. This is also seen in Rebellion's Alien vs Predator 3 game. Kept in captivity or not, there is more than one way for a Queen to become an Empress, and that's my point.

 

And the Queen was superior because she was fully grown. From what I understand, given specific circumstances, a normal Xenomorph will transform into a Queen if necessary (i.e. prior Queen died) - I truly think the same applies to the concept of a Queen becoming an Empress - it's a transformation process.

 

A drone doesn't necessarily need for a Queen to really so much as die in order to become a Queen. Xenomorph morphology suggests that the Xenomorphs are adaptable in such a way that there are multiple ways for a Queen to form and ways for a Queen to become an Empress. Aside from a Drone becoming a Queen by simply morphing into one, there is the possibility of the Drone in question consuming Royal Jelly-- in turn becoming a Praetorian, or Royal Gaurd. A Royal Gaurd can turn into a Queen should the need for it arise-- and Royal Gaurds can also be birthed like normal Xenomorphs but these are a rare strain of Xenomorphs in particular and not seen all that much, birthed Royal Gaurds are really infertile Queens that are kept in the morphology of a Royal Gaurd and should a Queen be needed-- a Royal Gaurd can in turn become a Queen.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

The thing is though - you'd think if someone is writing a screenplay using material from a franchise, they'd at least enlighten themselves on the basic terminologies - there's no excuse for them not to know, so I'm not entirely convinced.

 

I never denied that they couldn't become an Empress from old Age - if needed be to elaborate: I verily much so doubt it was an Empress... since Cryogenic Preservation basically halts the growth process. Also I was of the impression that the Alien Queen was basically trapped within the pyramid long ago (thousands or so? Memory's off a bit. Haven't seen the film in a long bit despite my good memory) so it wouldn't have been released that often.

 

Not to mention if they merely used the Queen for her eggs, nothing's to say they didn't freeze her after retrieving her eggs to create the Xenos - kinda makes sense why when they nuked themselves and buried the Pyramid, that the Queen was Dormant - which really makes it more and more so harder to believe that she was an Empress, since that would mean she's been frozen maybe her entire (or mostly, to be more accurate) 'lifespan' as a Queen. It's more so a plausible suggestion than your idea of her being an Empress.

 

And the third paragraph was unnecessary - my point was there's apparently a need to transform in order to obtain a certain Status. Via circumstances. The methods are irrelevant, except for the Queen - Empress aspect. Given the circumstance I just outlined in the third paragraph above, she is most likely not an Empress but merely a more so grown Queen.

[RakaiThwei]

The thing is though - you'd think if someone is writing a screenplay using material from a franchise, they'd at least enlighten themselves on the basic terminologies - there's no excuse for them not to know, so I'm not entirely convinced.

 

Shane Salerno gets a lot of flak from the Alien-Predator fandom. A lot of the fans say that he didn't know anything about the franchises, and ultimately instead leaves us to deduce what we see on the screen and what commentary leaves us. I am not the only one who believe that this Queen in Alien vs Predator was an Empress if that is what you are saying or inclined to believe.

 

I never denied that they couldn't become an Empress from old Age - if needed be to elaborate: I verily much so doubt it was an Empress... since Cryogenic Preservation basically halts the growth process. Also I was of the impression that the Alien Queen was basically trapped within the pyramid long ago (thousands or so? Memory's off a bit. Haven't seen the film in a long bit despite my good memory) so it wouldn't have been released that often.

 

We don't know how old that Queen was. Biologically we know that it was older than the Queen we saw in ALIENS, and definitely taller as well as possessing a different build. What we do know is that the Yautja have been aware of the Xenomorphs for quite sometime, and the flash back scene shows us that the eggs were already prepared for host impregnation. It's likely that the Yautja have been using Queens, or that Queen in particular on other worlds before she was settled on Earth and kept cryogenically frozen. We know that the Yautja have been visiting for thousands of years-- every one hundred years out of those thousands of years.

 

Perhaps it was a Queen in her prime-- full maturity. But numerous informational sources from the games and the novels tells that's exactly what an Empress is. Paul W.S. Anderson, and ADI Special Effects just wanted to show a Queen who was older and had the time to reach maturity where as the Queen in ALIENS did not get to that point in her life.

 

As for the date when the Empress herself had been kept in cryogenic status, there is no real specific date given. What we do know is that the civilization as far as AvP continuity suggests that those who had built those Pyramids with the aid of the Yautja, were perhaps the first civilization-- dating farther back to or around at the same time as Mesopatamia. In short, that's a pretty long time to be around and plenty of time to be taken out every one hundred years and time to age to maturity, albeit at a slower rate.

 

In all honesty, I'll come out and say it: I think you're trying to make it so it's an Alien Empress in order to blow up the feat of penetrating the Low Grade Dlex a bit more, i.e. in that it "looks" and "sounds" better.

 

I take offense to that. And quite honestly I do not appreciate your patrionizing if that was your point.

 

Never did I once say that only an Empress was capable of piercing through low grade Dlex. Even Young Queens, and Warrior Xenomorphs have been able to pierce thorugh low grade Dlex because they were able to generate enough force and concentrate it into a smaller focal point. Basic physics suggest that sufficience force generated placed into a smaller focal point can result in greater damage done. Also keep in mind that the Xenomorphs are stronger than humans on a physical level, and can generate enough force to pierce through low grade Dlex.

 

Keep in mind, low grade Dlex is pretty much the low end as far as Dlex metals are concerned. It's not acid resistant and no where near as durable as say either medium grade Dlex or even high grade Dlex. I wasn't even saying that low grade is something impentrable like Plasma Grade (which is said to be almost industructable).

 

Really, Ethan... Give me credit where credit is due.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

So it still is speculation. The next question is: How do we exactly know it was fully mature?

 

And it was mainly referencing the Empress more than the Feat. I will give you credit: In that you take offense very easily.

[RakaiThwei]

So it still is speculation. The next question is: How do we exactly know it was fully mature?

 

It's not necessarily speculation per se because commentary tells us that the Queen was more mature than the ones we saw in ALIENS and Alien Resurrection (though it should be noted that the Queen in Resurrection was not a TRUE Xenomorph). Numerous novels and comics tell us that Empresses are just matured Queens who have a taller height and more experiences than average Queens have.

 

And do we know that it was fully mature?

 

I've actually spoken with Almagated Designs Inc Co-Founder and Alien suit actor, Tom Woodruff Jr. over at Monstermania NJ in Feburary of 2007. I even have a photo of myself and him at the convention and I even asked him a series of questions regarding the film Alien vs Predator. He did say to me that the Alien in Alien vs Predator was supposed to reached the point in her life where she had reached maturity where as the Queen in ALIENS did not. I had asked Tom why did the Queen in AvP looked different than the Queen in Aliens? He had told me that the Queen had been signifantly aged in comparison to the one in Aliens and had the Queen in ALIENS been given time to live and grow, what we would've seen would've been the AvP Queen.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

Sigh. You know what really annoys me? How you apparently seem to have communicated with various sources in regards to various instances - seems they come out the woodwork in order to support your arguments, because frankly, I find these hard to believe, because they can be manufactured...

 

And it is necessarily speculation if you've stated that it's left to the audience to deduce whether or not it is an Empress or Queen - then you go on to say otherwise... more to follow below:

 

And a few things... If the guy who wrote the script didn't know anything about the differences between Queens and Empresses... which really leaves it ambiguous as all hell... where does Tom Woodruff Jr. actually come into this other than having been the designer for the creature effects? It's not as if he has the final say? And if Tom knew this... wouldn't this by all means necessarily mean a change in the script would have been made in order to be clearer?

 

Supposedly reached maturity and significantly aged does not necessary equate full maturity. If you take a moment and think what those terms mean... they're basically vague - in which case, is once more borderline speculation than anything... was more mature does not equate fully mature either.

 

In this case, I'm still entirely unconvinced that it's an Empress and is purely an older Alien Queen.

[RakaiThwei]

Sigh. You know what really annoys me? How you apparently seem to have communicated with various sources in regards to various instances - seems they come out the woodwork in order to support your arguments, because frankly, I find these hard to believe, because they can be manufactured...

 

I don't understand why you are completely getting annoyed about something which is completely irrelevent to this debate-- which Skadoosh should've left for dead since it was inactive for a month. And I have a feeling that you want to call me what I think you're calling me.

 

And a few things... If the guy who wrote the script didn't know anything about the differences between Queens and Empresses... which really leaves it ambiguous as all hell... where does Tom Woodruff Jr. actually come into this other than having been the designer for the creature effects? It's not as if he has the final say? And if Tom knew this... wouldn't this by all means necessarily mean a change in the script would have been made in order to be clearer?

 

Shane Salerno was hired to write the script. It's likely if not, definite that he did not look at the EU aside from the original Alien vs Predator comic that Paul W.S. Anderson had taken inspiration from and collaborated with Paul W.S. Anderson for the finalized script of Alien vs. Predator. As you know that when it comes to film making that there are numerous concepts which are put through in the form of concept art, and later on finalized. They wanted to introduce the concept of an older Queen that was taller, bigger, stronger and more fercoious than the one we saw in ALIENS. We got that.

 

As for where Tom Woodruff Jr. comes from and where he fits in, he was at a convention and he was there to premote Alien vs Predator: Requiem with Ian White. I wanted to ask him some questions regarding the first film and why things were done the way they were. Tom is just a special effects co-founder and a suit actor, he plays the Alien and he doesn't know the literature or lore as many Alien fans do. I only asked him why the Queen in AvP looked different than the one in Aliens and that's what he had told me that's what the film makers wanted, an older and ferocious looking Queen.

 

And if you don't believe me about me meeting Tom:

 

 

However material published in the EU would suggest that based on the visual description we saw of the Queen in Alien vs Predator could be an Empress. Alien vs Predator 2 (Monolith) introduced that the idea of the Empress could be formed when a Queen has reached sufficient age. We see a similar Empress in Alien vs Predator 3 (Rebellion). I mean what else could it infact be?

 

Now, there is something which could give your arguement some holding... The question is should we count novelizations of films as canon? In my book, considering that novelizations often contradict the film-- no, we shouldn't. According to the novelization of AvP: Alien vs Predator, the Queen was the result of rabid breeding by the Yautja pumping hormones into her. I don't own the novel, but according to one poster who does over at this forum by Gammaray-X, it's an altered and abnormal Queen.

 

http://gamegossip.com/forums/corporate-theater/81386-could-avp-queen-empress.html

 

However, for the most part novelizations of certain films shouldn't be held as canon as in the novel of AvP: Aliens vs Predator, there were five Predators instead of three, there were full grown PredAliens and Scar Predator wasn't facehugged. So not counting the novelization as canon, that leaves that possibility of the Queen being an abnormal Queen due to hormones being pumped into her is thrown out.

 

I am willing to conceed that I am wrong, however I am going off from what the material of the EU has suggested what an Empress is, what the film has showed us and suggested. As said before, I am not a Xenomorph expert... I am more of a Yautja expert. But to me that sounds like an Empress or a Queen that is on the verge of becoming an Empress. Based on the knowledge I know of Xenomorphs, seems to point out to that.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest skadoosh]

This is interesting...