Rumble 13058 Magneto vs. Doctor Doom vs. Loki

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Also - on good authority, the few showings Loki's shown, outclasses Dr. Strange - so with this I rest my case.

 

And these showings would be?

[Indolent]

Very good instance would be Loki pretty much owning Bor, who's a very, very powerful Skyfather in his own right via transmuting him into snow... after traveling back into time. Then he traveled back to the present... and undoes the transmutation with relative ease. All this under his own power.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

There was a good head to head conflict between Loki and Strange years ago in Strange Tales. This was before the Doc had his own title or his cloak of levitation. Loki was clearly much more powerful then, but Strange wasn't sorcerer supreme yet.

 

The other comparison I can think of was in the Avengers/Defenders was. Loki was clearly less powerful than Dormammu (though he could hold him off for a bit.) Doc was less powerful than Dormammu also, but he had to rely on cunning and misdirection to fight him while Loki could actually go power to power for a short time.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Is it magnetic, though? Asgardian metal might not be magnetic, or perhaps not in the same way Earth metal is.

 

I think that Magneto has been able to affect the uru metal of Thor's hammer in a couple of encounters in Avengers. Can't say for sore, though.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

yeah but juggernaut and exodus would be on magneto's team and they could take any of them that would follow loki.

 

If Loki has Destroyer, Kurse, & Ulik I think he could counter the physical power of the strongest members of the Brotherhood. (I'd love to see a match between Destroyer and Juggernaut someday.)

 

If he has Karnilla & Enghantress he easily overpowers Doom in the area of sorcery. I don't think even Strange as sorcerer supreme could stand up to those three in combination.

 

If he has Hela and Fenrir and Hoarfin and Surter with him...

 

Game over man. Game over.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Very good instance would be Loki pretty much owning Bor, who's a very, very powerful Skyfather in his own right via transmuting him into snow... after traveling back into time. Then he traveled back to the present... and undoes the transmutation with relative ease. All this under his own power.

 

He blindsided Bor. Hardly as impressive as a one-on-one magical duel. Doctor Strange did the same, but with both Ymir and Surtur at once.

 

And he needed The Enchantress' (or Hela's, I can't remember) help to get back in time, something Doctor Strange can do on the casual.

[Guest force_echo]

Dunno - going off by the fact that Loki's equal to Karnilla in terms of magical prowess and that said magical prowess nearly rivals Dormammu's - as stated by Dormammu himself.

 

By going off that - taking into consideration Strange needs to channel other entities' powers to even combat Dormammu leads me to believe to be the case in regard to Loki being superior to Dr. Strange (utilizing his own store of power) and Dr. Doom.

 

Also - on good authority, the few showings Loki's shown, outclasses Dr. Strange - so with this I rest my case.

What are you talking about? Dr. Strange has beaten Dormammu without outside intervention in his own title numerous times. None of Loki's showings have ever even come close to SS Dr. Strange's high end feats.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Y'know, Loki vs Magneto would make a heck of an arc if it was split into a bunch of rounds where the minions did battle. Destroyer vs, Juggernaut, Exodus vs. Kurse, Executioner vs. Blob, etc.

[kainboa]

What are you talking about? Dr. Strange has beaten Dormammu without outside intervention in his own title numerous times. None of Loki's showings have ever even come close to SS Dr. Strange's high end feats.

 

Oh really?

 

So the fact that most of his spells basically amounts to prayers to various entities for power, equals him having a high level of personal power, yeah that makes sense [/sarcasm]

 

Since you claim that Dr. Strange has beaten Dormammu without outside intervention, I'm sure you have some scans to provide evidence.

[Indolent]

He blindsided Bor. Hardly as impressive as a one-on-one magical duel. Doctor Strange did the same, but with both Ymir and Surtur at once.

 

And he needed The Enchantress' (or Hela's, I can't remember) help to get back in time, something Doctor Strange can do on the casual.

Well yeah - Bor didn't exactly have his defenses up due to thinking Loki another flimsy magic practitioner in the Frost Giants' ranks. Though my thought was if he's conscious whilst as snow (i.e. spirit) as given by the dialogue he has with Odin, why not manipulate his own Skyfather power to reverse it? iirc his own power was as equal if not superior to the likes of the Odinforce. So either he was rendered incapable of utilizing his own power by Loki or PIS... Not to mention he effortlessly recreated him and set about that arc where Bor fights Thor...

 

He had slight help from Hela.

 

And did Dr. Strange do so to Sutur and Ymir under his own power? Also Dr. Strange typically channels his powers from a slew of various Gods and Entities, even for simple spells - I speak of actually using his own power, not drawing energy and power from other entities. As I understand it... most instances of Strange's powers actually draw on from somewhere. From my understanding, his own mystical power (if any) pales in comparison to Loki's own but when he's channeling from somewhere, aye, he dwarfs Loki. Was all I wanted to say.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Well yeah - Bor didn't exactly have his defenses up due to thinking Loki another flimsy magic practitioner in the Frost Giants' ranks. Though my thought was if he's conscious whilst as snow (i.e. spirit) as given by the dialogue he has with Odin, why not manipulate his own Skyfather power to reverse it? iirc his own power was as equal if not superior to the likes of the Odinforce. So either he was rendered incapable of utilizing his own power by Loki or PIS... Not to mention he effortlessly recreated him and set about that arc where Bor fights Thor...

 

He had slight help from Hela.

 

And did Dr. Strange do so to Sutur and Ymir under his own power? Also Dr. Strange typically channels his powers from a slew of various Gods and Entities, even for simple spells - I speak of actually using his own power, not drawing energy and power from other entities. As I understand it... most instances of Strange's powers actually draw on from somewhere. From my understanding, his own mystical power (if any) pales in comparison to Loki's own but when he's channeling from somewhere, aye, he dwarfs Loki. Was all I wanted to say.

 

A Poison Dart Frog weighs about 2 grams and is only a few inches in length, and yet it produces poison deadly enough that the toxin harvested form a single frog can kill twenty people. Point being, you don't have to be bigger and stronger than someone to lay them out, overpower them, or prevent them from retaliating if you've got an opening. An opening which Loki had to plot for. If Loki's power was as potent as you suggest, waiting for Bor to turn his back would have been pointless.

 

Besides which, Bor was never shown to have any sort of power outside of brutish destruction (energy blasts, lightning bolts), and maybe the manipulation of certain animals, or possibly the weather. Just because Odin displayed amazing abilities with magic (transmutation, time-stopping) doesn't mean his father was capable of it, as Odin himself had to rely on incantations to utilize that side of the Odin-Force (though this depends on the writer, of course), something Bor may not have had time for, or never bothered to learn.

 

Couldn't recall. Only thing I remembered was that she was in Vegas and banging mass dudes before killing them.

 

It was a ritual. He did it remotely. However, keep in mind that Strange has also destroyed planets while under his own power, and stepped in and outside of time without having to call on extra-dimensional entities. He's so proficient at time spells, he doesn't need an incantation or a gesture to accomplish a time-stop.

 

The last time Loki fought Strange directly, IIRC, Loki had a multitude of talismans that Strange owned, and could only manage to stalemate him. And this was after Loki jumped Strange.

[Indolent]

He didn't turn his back - Bor was already defenseless due to his arrogance against the Frost Giants - context. Loki didn't have to wait in reality. I've got a scan with narration explaining this. If you want, I can get it. Also already mentioned this previously .-.

 

It's pretty much a fact he had power equal to Odin if not greater - which means he's pretty much capable of doing the same. He's a Skyfather - and what's more? Odin's power is accumulated of his own and two of his brothers. Bor's power apparently equates Odin's if not eclipsing - which means it's likely more potent though never utilized due to the brief appearance he's made.

 

Actually Strange doesn't have his own magical power - he's simply a human that draws on the massive stores of energy in the universe alongside the entities he calls upon, so I'm right anyways - Loki's natural magical power dwarfs Strange when he's not channeling others' powers for his own. Most if not all of what Strange does, he's channeling power from elsewhere.

 

Loki's capable of destroying planets as stated by the Silver Surfer. As for time stopping - no feats by Loki for that though his Daughter has utilized asgardian magic to do so... and she's nowhere on the same level as Karnilla or Loki as being the most skilled magic users - yes, speculation in terms of usage of capability I know but food for thought regardless.

 

Well yes, Strange channeling power clearly dwarfs Loki - even in the instance you provide - I never contested that Loki was superior to him overall in capability, just that in natural, inherent magical capability without drawing on others' for power Loki is superior. As I said, was all I wanted to make clear. Also from what I recall, Loki's more of the power amping while Strange is more of the power channeling... which only proves my point further.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

He didn't turn his back - Bor was already defenseless due to his arrogance against the Frost Giants - context. Loki didn't have to wait in reality. I've got a scan with narration explaining this. If you want, I can get it. Also already mentioned this previously .-.

 

It's pretty much a fact he had power equal to Odin if not greater - which means he's pretty much capable of doing the same. He's a Skyfather - and what's more? Odin's power is accumulated of his own and two of his brothers. Bor's power apparently equates Odin's if not eclipsing - which means it's likely more potent though never utilized due to the brief appearance he's made.

 

Actually Strange doesn't have his own magical power - he's simply a human that draws on the massive stores of energy in the universe alongside the entities he calls upon, so I'm right anyways - Loki's natural magical power dwarfs Strange when he's not channeling others' powers for his own. Most if not all of what Strange does, he's channeling power from elsewhere.

 

Loki's capable of destroying planets as stated by the Silver Surfer. As for time stopping - no feats by Loki for that though his Daughter has utilized asgardian magic to do so... and she's nowhere on the same level as Karnilla or Loki as being the most skilled magic users - yes, speculation in terms of usage of capability I know but food for thought regardless.

 

Well yes, Strange channeling power clearly dwarfs Loki - even in the instance you provide - I never contested that Loki was superior to him overall in capability, just that in natural, inherent magical capability without drawing on others' for power Loki is superior. As I said, was all I wanted to make clear. Also from what I recall, Loki's more of the power amping while Strange is more of the power channeling... which only proves my point further.

 

 

I was being metaphorical. Context. And I'm fully aware of what transpired. I have the comic.

 

Which changes nothing of what I've said. Bor didn't have any of the experience Odin had in manipulating magical energies, which is why he needed a sorcerer to undo his curse, and was brought down by Thor wielding only a portion of the Odin force. So, no, Bor doesn't eclipse his Odin, in either power or versatility.

 

Strange does have his own magical reserves. Everything does. You're right, due to physiology, though, that Loki has more raw power to draw upon from his own body.

[Indolent]

So then arguing the point further when it was already made clear was pointless despite the metaphor. CONTEXT.

 

Nothing implies he didn't have the experience Odin does (far as as utilizing it effectively I mean) - granted though Odin's far older than his dad ever got and he has the Wisdom from the Well. And I thought Thor had the majority of the Odin Force O,o Or is it still fragmented. I also like to think the short appearance Bor's had he didn't get to show the full capability.

 

So then my point is understood! Also would you agree that Loki is superior to Dr. Doom in magic or?

[Guest MarvelFan15]

I was expounding things left unsaid in my metaphor, due to your explanations implying that Loki's magic = Skyfather's. And yes, Loki did have to wait to set up an ambush. As we're all aware by now...context.

 

Nothing implies he did have Odin's experience, either.

 

I was under the impression (as were a lot of other debaters/internet users) that Thor only brought back a small portion of Odin/Rune force when he was revived, and it was dubbed by Marvel as the Thorforce. This is evidenced by him taking hours to days to reconstruct the city of Asgard, whereas Odin remade the entire planet in seconds during Fear Itself. But I'm not 100% certain.

 

EDIT: [email protected]$ing quote function...

 

 

EDIT 2: And I'm not sure about Doom. He did effortlessly kill a Watcher, but then that was retconned away. He's supposed to rival or surpass virtually every other earth-based magic user in terms of power and knowledge, but he doesn't have too much more than hype going for him. When they collaborated, Loki seemed to be better at pure magic, but when it came to implementing both magic and technology, Loki was left in the dust. Also, Doom was able to reverse-engineer Odin's work/magic on the Destroyer armor and hack into Asgardian life-forces to power it, so...

 

I'm undecided.

[Indolent]

Loki just teleported in from what I saw or am I missing scans? And I can see the implication - I mean Strange's been implicated to be capable of taking Odin on with the full brunt of magic :/

 

Which I already covered in my statement due to Odin having wisdom and knowledge - I also meant being able to utilize it effectively at the least. .-.

 

Alright.

 

AND WHAT OF MY QUERY YOU SHEEP LOVING FARMBOY.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Loki just teleported in from what I saw or am I missing scans? And I can see the implication - I mean Strange's been implicated to be capable of taking Odin on with the full brunt of magic :/

 

Which I already covered in my statement due to Odin having wisdom and knowledge - I also meant being able to utilize it effectively at the least. .-.

 

Alright.

 

AND WHAT OF MY QUERY YOU SHEEP LOVING FARMBOY.

 

No. He had his younger self trick his father into fighting Bor. Of course, Bor won, and the Frost Giants retreated, with Bor in hot pursuit. This was planned beforehand. Loki was waiting within range of their escape route and blindsided Bor, who didn't expect anything of Frost Giant heritage to be so badass at using magic.

 

The most effective thing Bor did was use it to destroy. He is reputed to have helped build the universe, but...y'know cosmology is tricky in comics.

 

I edited it in.

[Indolent]

Well they did say portions of the universe in the norse mythos was built from Ymir's corpse... so maybe he built by destroying Ymir at a point?

 

And I see!

[Guest MarvelFan15]

It was Odin who did it in the mythology, though, unless I'm mistaken.

[Indolent]

in Marvel's you mean?

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Don't think they built anything from Ymir's corpse in Marvel's version of the mythology, considering he pops up every now and then.

[Indolent]

He actually revives iirc.

 

But then again they screwed the lore up something fierce.

[Guest force_echo]

Dr. Strange is still more magically powerful than Loki. I don't understand this whole, Loki is more powerful than Dr. Strange when he doesn't use the spells he uses all of the time. Yeah, I suppose you're right, if Dr. Strange didn't use his magical spells, then yes, Loki could beat him in a magical fight. That's also like saying that I could beat up Spider-Man if he didn't have his spider powers, it's a stupid, ridiculous, and pointless argument. Dr. Strange is always going to have those abilities, so discounting them when you say that Loki is more powerful than Strange is an idiot's argument.

 

And yes, while Strange usually beats Dormammu through tricking him or something like that, but in Dr. strange Sorcerer Supreme #48-49 Strange defeats him without the use of the Principalities, aka all of the mystical entities that supply Strange with power. Also, in Strange Tales 130-141 Strange defeats him in straight up one on one combat.

[kainboa]

snip

 

Dr. Strange is still more magically powerful than Loki.

 

Dr. Strange, is by calling upon various entities, able to channel more magical power than Loki, this is true, however purely going by their own innate magical power, which is what has been discussed the whole time, then Loki is vastly more powerful.

 

I don't understand this whole, Loki is more powerful than Dr. Strange when he doesn't use the spells he uses all of the time.

 

Okay, I guess I'll try and explain it in simple terms, since you obviously have trouble grasping such a convoluted subject.

 

Everybody in marvel has the ability to use magic, to some extent, however most humans need to call upon various entities in order to do powerful magic, since their own innate storage of magical energy is too small to do much, Dr. Strange is one of these.

 

Loki on the other hand, doesn't need to call upon any others, his own innate storage, is large enough that he can do large scale magic on his own.

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right, if Dr. Strange didn't use his magical spells, then yes, Loki could beat him in a magical fight.

 

Nobody has said anything about a fight, we are purely talking about their own innate magical power, rather than when they are being empowered by various others.

 

That's also like saying that I could beat up Spider-Man if he didn't have his spider powers, it's a stupid, ridiculous, and pointless argument.

 

Only if you misunderstand the argument, like you obviously do.

 

Dr. Strange is always going to have those abilities, so discounting them when you say that Loki is more powerful than Strange is an idiot's argument.

 

Not really, saying that Loki is magically more powerful than Dr. Strange, is a fairly simple fact, since Loki's own innate magical storage is larger than that of Dr. Strange.

 

Dr. Strange need to augment it by calling upon various entities for additional power.

 

I'll gladly agree that Dr. Strange, by calling upon various entities is capable of far more than what we've seen from Loki, but that doesn't change the fact, that on his own, he's just another human, where Loki is a magical being, with innate magical powers.

[Guest force_echo]

Dr. Strange is still more magically powerful than Loki.

 

Dr. Strange, is by calling upon various entities, able to channel more magical power than Loki, this is true, however purely going by their own innate magical power, which is what has been discussed the whole time, then Loki is vastly more powerful.

 

I don't understand this whole, Loki is more powerful than Dr. Strange when he doesn't use the spells he uses all of the time.

 

Okay, I guess I'll try and explain it in simple terms, since you obviously have trouble grasping such a convoluted subject.

 

Everybody in marvel has the ability to use magic, to some extent, however most humans need to call upon various entities in order to do powerful magic, since their own innate storage of magical energy is too small to do much, Dr. Strange is one of these.

 

Loki on the other hand, doesn't need to call upon any others, his own innate storage, is large enough that he can do large scale magic on his own.

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right, if Dr. Strange didn't use his magical spells, then yes, Loki could beat him in a magical fight.

 

Nobody has said anything about a fight, we are purely talking about their own innate magical power, rather than when they are being empowered by various others.

 

That's also like saying that I could beat up Spider-Man if he didn't have his spider powers, it's a stupid, ridiculous, and pointless argument.

 

Only if you misunderstand the argument, like you obviously do.

 

Dr. Strange is always going to have those abilities, so discounting them when you say that Loki is more powerful than Strange is an idiot's argument.

 

Not really, saying that Loki is magically more powerful than Dr. Strange, is a fairly simple fact, since Loki's own innate magical storage is larger than that of Dr. Strange.

 

Dr. Strange need to augment it by calling upon various entities for additional power.

 

I'll gladly agree that Dr. Strange, by calling upon various entities is capable of far more than what we've seen from Loki, but that doesn't change the fact, that on his own, he's just another human, where Loki is a magical being, with innate magical powers.

Which means what? I mean, how brain-shatteringly stupid do you have to be to miss the point of an entire paragraph? I get what your "argument" (for a lack of a better word), what I'm saying is that it's a completely idiotic and ridiculously pointless argument (which you've predictably and sadly misunderstood). Would having an innately larger personal storing of magic mean that Loki could defeat Strange one on one? No. Would it mean that he could out-magic Dr. Strange in any capacity? No. Would Spider-Man without the ability to stick to walls be able to scale a skyscraper as fast as Venom? No. Does Spider-Man not have the ability to stick to walls? No. So why does it matter? Because Kain's hilariously retarded.

 

And beyond that, you're just plain wrong (again fairly predictably). Dr. Strange "on his own" is not just a human, in fact, he's only weakened without the Principalities, and still has a fairly large and diverse magical capacity.