Rumble 13058 Magneto vs. Doctor Doom vs. Loki

[kainboa]

snip

 

Which means what? I mean, how brain-shatteringly stupid do you have to be to miss the point of an entire paragraph?

 

Well, from what you've shown thus far, I would guess about as stupid as you.

 

I get what your "argument" (for a lack of a better word), what I'm saying is that it's a completely idiotic and ridiculously pointless argument (which you've predictably and sadly misunderstood).

 

Actually, no, I haven't misunderstood it, I just don't agree that it is a pointless arguement, simply because you declare it to be pointless, doesn't automatically make it so, no matter how much you want it to.

 

Would having an innately larger personal storing of magic mean that Loki could defeat Strange one on one? No.

 

If it were a contest purely based on their own innate power, rather than any power they could channel from other beings. Yes, Loki would win.

 

Would it mean that he could out-magic Dr. Strange in any capacity? No.

 

Again, in a match, purely innate magic against innate magic, yes he would.

 

Would Spider-Man without the ability to stick to walls be able to scale a skyscraper as fast as Venom? No. Does Spider-Man not have the ability to stick to walls? No. So why does it matter? Because Kain's hilariously retarded.

 

Ah, having to resort to name calling, how mature, but then again, considering your age, it isn't really that surprising that you would need to resort to that.

 

Actually responding to this particular example, there's a fairly large difference between Spider-man having and using his powers, and Dr. Strange calling upon various entities to empower his spells, Strange could theoretically chose not to do so, Spider-man can't chose to not have his powers.

[Guest force_echo]

First of all, you clearly did not understand what I was saying because your whole argument was clarifying your pointless debate about innate power instead of actually responding to what I was saying.

 

Also, what? I can't believe this, you still don't understand. You're still responding about the battle between innate power, and not addressing why the hell we would even consider it in a magic battle. Is it the situation that we're debating? No, it's completely pointless, not just because I'm saying so, but because in a magic on magic fight, Dr. Strange has access to the powers you're arbitrarily taking away from him. It's exactly like the Spider-Man example. As for your weak response that doesn't make any sense, Spider-Man can choose whether not to crawl up walls you idiot. But why would he? I guess the same reason why Dr. Strange would choose not to use SPELLS IN A MAGIC FIGHT.

 

Also, keep calling me immature for calling names, when you're the one who started debating uncivilly in the first place. Hypocritical and stupid, they should start calling you the double threat.

[Indolent]

No - you're not really making sense - Strange could still use spells without the need of relying on other entities' in order to empower his own but the potency and power behind them would be explicitly drawn from his own miniscule pool of magical power - which means they would be vastly inferior to the likes of Loki's magic.

 

So Strange could use spells in a magical fight without empowering them with the essence of otherworldly entities - which means in a magical fight with Loki based purely on innate magical capability, he would lose.

 

As was said, most if not all of the spells Strange utilizes are empowered externally.

 

Clarification is all.

[Guest force_echo]

How the hell do you not understand me? Here, let me put it in the clearest possible freaking terms I can, and let me know if you still can't making sense of the very simple point I'm making. Why in a magical fight would he not use the spells he's always used that draw on the Principalities? That's like saying Venom could defeat Spider-Man if Spider-Man didn't have his Spider powers, what freaking relevance does it have on anything in actual test of power or combat? Or that the Punisher could beat Deadshot if Deadshot didn't have any weapons, what does it matter since Deadshot DOES have weapons. Also, you're again, plain wrong. Without the power of Principalities his own magical power is not minuscule at all (it's enough to put a beating on Dormammu). Also, all of his spells are not powered by the Principalities, we know this for a fact. In fact, you don't know for sure if most of them are, I don't know for sure if the converse is true either.

[Indolent]

How the hell do you not understand me? Here, let me put it in the clearest possible freaking terms I can, and let me know if you still can't making sense of the very simple point I'm making. Why in a magical fight would he not use the spells he's always used that draw on the Principalities? That's like saying Venom could defeat Spider-Man if Spider-Man didn't have his Spider powers, what freaking relevance does it have on anything in actual test of power or combat? Or that the Punisher could beat Deadshot if Deadshot didn't have any weapons, what does it matter since Deadshot DOES have weapons. Also, you're again, plain wrong. Without the power of Principalities his own magical power is not minuscule at all (it's enough to put a beating on Dormammu). Also, all of his spells are not powered by the Principalities, we know this for a fact. In fact, you don't know for sure if most of them are, I don't know for sure if the converse is true either.

 

No, you're not understanding it - no one's saying in a fight with Loki, he will not be using magic empowered externally against Loki - the scenario was to exemplify the point of Loki's innate magical capability to being superior to Strange's.

 

And even if that were true, which I sincerely doubt (provide me the scan where it says this and I'll concede), Dormammu's stated Loki's magical prowess to be near his which pretty much ascertains Loki's innate magical capability to being superior to Strange's since Dormmamu's innate magical prowess canonically already dwarfs Strange's regardless of Strange actually "beating on" him.

[C.T.]

Can everyone please take a step back and chill out? Stephen Strange's innate magical ability has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Loki's magics are superior to Doom's most likely, but that's when Doom brings in his tech, which he has used to siphon the powers of many a cosmic individual, Beyonder, Surfer, Franklin Richards etc. Given his army of Doombots and planning and so forth...well, it'd be a good war to spectate.

[Indolent]

Can everyone please take a step back and chill out? Stephen Strange's innate magical ability has nothing to do with this thread.

Actually it does when Doom's been stated to be second to Dr. Strange in terms of magical knowledge and prowess (or so along the lines).

 

So using Strange as a defining point for Loki helps ascertain his superiority over the likes of Doom purely in magic...

 

But yes, Dr. Doom's fusion of magic and technology evens that out, more so due to the technological aspect - MAGITECH.

[Guest force_echo]

Oh for Christ's- Yes, I understand that, I never even commented that Dr. Strange without the Principalities would be able to defeat Loki, but why does it matter? In a magical combat scenario, Dr. Strange is not going to be like, "Yeah dude. Let me just fight without all of the spells I have under my disposal, the spells I've been using forever, because that makes total sense." It's exactly like saying Punisher could defeat Deadshot in a gunfight if Deadshot didn't have any guns. Strange's innate magical ability has nothing to do with anything. It's like saying Venom is more powerful than Spider-Man without his spider powers. I was saying that Dr. Strange is overall much more powerful than Loki, which is simply a fact.

 

Provide me a scan where Dormammu says that Loki is nearly his equal, because that makes no damn sense. No feat Loki has EVER done with magic even comes relatively close to Dormammu's power. Also, it just plain doesn't make any sense. In the Avengers/Defenders war, Dormammu effortlessly defeats and imprisons Loki (and he wasn't even at full power), leaving only the Scarlet Witch to take him on.

[Indolent]

Oh for Christ's- Yes, I understand that, I never even commented that Dr. Strange without the Principalities would be able to defeat Loki, but why does it matter? In a magical combat scenario, Dr. Strange is not going to be like, "Yeah dude. Let me just fight without all of the spells I have under my disposal, the spells I've been using forever, because that makes total sense." It's exactly like saying Punisher could defeat Deadshot in a gunfight if Deadshot didn't have any guns. Strange's innate magical ability has nothing to do with anything. It's like saying Venom is more powerful than Spider-Man without his spider powers.

 

Provide me a scan where Dormammu says that Loki is nearly his equal, because that makes no damn sense. No feat Loki has EVER done with magic even comes relatively close to Dormammu's power.

 

It matters if you're strictly speaking about solely on innate magical power, and as was said, it was merely an example to demonstrate the point - now since it's clear you understand this, I don't think anything else further has to be said other than your opinion of thinking it to be pointless, which frankly I'd say in my opinion is pointless to even mention as it was all hypothetical anyways.

 

 

Still waiting on the scan for Strange's innate magical power beating on Dormmamu as you claimed, though technically it should have been you first to provide a scan but I digress.

[Guest force_echo]

What point? That Dr. Strange is more powerful than Loki if he doesn't use the spells he uses all of the time? What kind of stupid point is that?

 

First, I don't have the comics myself, but I did provide you the specific issue numbers of both instances where Strange beat Dormammu in direct combat without the aid of the Principalities. I can describe to you in detail what happened, if you like.

 

Second, Powers of Evil doesn't necessarily mean raw power. Powers of Evil could just mean that Loki has just as much of an evil potential, or that he's less powerful in magic, but smarter so he causes just as much damage. Second, I'm fairly sure that took place in the Avengers vs. Defenders story arc, the same arc where Dormammu defeated Loki and imprisoned him fairly easily, so that doesn't really say anything except that Dormammu overestimated Loki, if indeed he was talking about pure power.

[Indolent]

What point? That Dr. Strange is more powerful than Loki if he doesn't use the spells he uses all of the time? What kind of stupid point is that?

 

First, I don't have the comics myself, but I did provide you the specific issue numbers of both instances where Strange beat Dormammu in direct combat without the aid of the Principalities. I can describe to you in detail what happened, if you like.

 

Second, Powers of Evil doesn't necessarily mean raw power. Powers of Evil could just mean that Loki has just as much of an evil potential, or that he's less powerful in magic, but smarter so he causes just as much damage. Second, I'm fairly sure that took place in the Avengers vs. Defenders story arc, the same arc where Dormammu defeated Loki and imprisoned him fairly easily, so that doesn't really say anything except that Dormammu overestimated Loki, if indeed he was talking about pure power.

 

The Point was that Loki's innate magical power is superior to Dr. Strange's own innate magical power.

 

Principalities doesn't incorporate all the entities Dr. Strange can call upon. He can draw power from the likes of Satannish which as far as I know, isn't a Principality. He's even drawn power from obscure sources and even from the Olympian Deities, whom aren't Principalities either. So not aka all the beings who supply him his power. And I'd prefer a scan rather than a description for apt precise clarity if you'll understand. I'll find it and torrent it if necessary

 

I'm thinking it's more likely power-wise since Dormammu is essentially power incarnate - after all Loki uses his power for evil, which would incorporate his own cunning capability... which is no different than saying Dormammu utilizing his own vast power and wisdom for evil. Aside this: Dormmamu said Loki was near - and knowing what Dormmamu is... it's an obvious advantage in his favor in which defeated Loki clearly.

[Indolent]

Ah it's not in #48 or #49 but #50.

 

Force Echo: He took Ghost Rider's Mystical Energies into himself in order to combat Dormammu. That is not under his own power.

 

I quote: "For only the combination of your innate mystical power and my sorcerous knowledge can stand against Dormammu"

 

Even Dormmamu considered Ghost Rider's presence to be minor against him... and Strange was utilizing Rider's innate mystical power. :-/

 

And in the astral combat, he used the Eye of Agamotto against him.

 

Not only that: He had Surfer and Hulk as well as Clea to help him combat Dormammu. When he was defeated, the defeating blow was a culmination of all the people mentioned upon his person.

 

Even then he still rose, proclaimed he hadn't even used 1/10th of his own power, stated he'd return then left.

 

I can give you the Download for Issue #50 if you'd like to read it for yourself. http://drstrange.nl/...s/ssupreme2.htm

 

Look for the image that says Demons' Debt! as it's more clearer due to the shoddy visual. That's #48 so #50 is below.

 

Now that aside, having proven your claim false, any other instances where Dr. Strange's own innate magical power is superior? Though I greatly doubt it, as was mentioned, he utilized Ghost Rider's own innate capability when Strange was cut off from the vast majority of entities he could call on... and was still clearly outclassed by far.

 

Edit: What the hell, I'll provide the scans below:

 

 

 

 

 

[C.T.]

[Indolent]

Loki > Ninjas too while we're at it.

[kainboa]

snip

 

First of all, you clearly did not understand what I was saying because your whole argument was clarifying your pointless debate about innate power instead of actually responding to what I was saying.

 

Actually, thus far, you are the only one who seem to have a lack of understanding, and also the only one who for some reason keep talking about a battle between Loki and Dr. Strange, rather than stick to the discussion at hand, meaning the difference between their innate magical power.

 

Also, what? I can't believe this, you still don't understand. You're still responding about the battle between innate power, and not addressing why the hell we would even consider it in a magic battle.

 

It is because we're not actually talking about a battle between innate power, we're simply comparing them, a point that you for some reason seem to have trouble grasping.

 

Is it the situation that we're debating? No, it's completely pointless, not just because I'm saying so, but because in a magic on magic fight, Dr. Strange has access to the powers you're arbitrarily taking away from him.

 

Actually, the only one who is talking about a magic on magic fight, is you, myself and from what I've seen, Jaeger has purely been comparing their innate magical power, without any reference to any kind of battle.

 

It's exactly like the Spider-Man example. As for your weak response that doesn't make any sense, Spider-Man can choose whether not to crawl up walls you idiot. But why would he? I guess the same reason why Dr. Strange would choose not to use SPELLS IN A MAGIC FIGHT.

 

Again, not talking about a battle, simply comparing their innate power.

 

Also, keep calling me immature for calling names, when you're the one who started debating uncivilly in the first place. Hypocritical and stupid, they should start calling you the double threat.

 

I will admit to being a bit condescending, though considering your trouble in understanding the difference between a comparison in innate power and discerning a winner in a fight that is somewhat required, but thus far I have been completely civil.

 

If one were to take a look through this thread, they would note that you were the one who started throwing around insults first.

[Guest force_echo]

First of all, you clearly did not understand what I was saying because your whole argument was clarifying your pointless debate about innate power instead of actually responding to what I was saying.

 

Actually, thus far, you are the only one who seem to have a lack of understanding, and also the only one who for some reason keep talking about a battle between Loki and Dr. Strange, rather than stick to the discussion at hand, meaning the difference between their innate magical power.

 

Also, what? I can't believe this, you still don't understand. You're still responding about the battle between innate power, and not addressing why the hell we would even consider it in a magic battle.

 

It is because we're not actually talking about a battle between innate power, we're simply comparing them, a point that you for some reason seem to have trouble grasping.

 

Is it the situation that we're debating? No, it's completely pointless, not just because I'm saying so, but because in a magic on magic fight, Dr. Strange has access to the powers you're arbitrarily taking away from him.

 

Actually, the only one who is talking about a magic on magic fight, is you, myself and from what I've seen, Jaeger has purely been comparing their innate magical power, without any reference to any kind of battle.

 

It's exactly like the Spider-Man example. As for your weak response that doesn't make any sense, Spider-Man can choose whether not to crawl up walls you idiot. But why would he? I guess the same reason why Dr. Strange would choose not to use SPELLS IN A MAGIC FIGHT.

 

Again, not talking about a battle, simply comparing their innate power.

 

Also, keep calling me immature for calling names, when you're the one who started debating uncivilly in the first place. Hypocritical and stupid, they should start calling you the double threat.

 

I will admit to being a bit condescending, though considering your trouble in understanding the difference between a comparison in innate power and discerning a winner in a fight that is somewhat required, but thus far I have been completely civil.

 

If one were to take a look through this thread, they would note that you were the one who started throwing around insults first.

No, the discussion at hand was originally simply who was more powerful and who could win in a magical duel. In which case Dr. Strange is much more powerful than Loki. The discussion of who has more innate magical power is one I never brought up, and when it was, I commented that it is completely useless in a battle between the two sorcerers, which it is. Therefore, you're wrong.

 

And I'm saying that the discussion is pointless. Why does it even exist when the original point posed that Dr. Strange is simply more magically adept and powerful than Loki? Which is a true point. What bearing does it have at all on anything? It doesn't mean that Loki is more powerful than Strange, it doesn't mean that he could beat Strange in a fight, it's completely pointless.

 

Actually no, you haven't. In the first point against me, you didn't really use anything except some sarcasm, which was fine with me. In the second one (before my first response), you were the first one who went out of his way to take shots at me for no conceivable reason. So you wanna debate like that? Ok then, don't whine like a little bitch when it comes back at you.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

The scans here are interesting. I'd like ot read the full issue they come from sometime. Can you tell me what it is?

 

If I'm interpreting it right, it looks as if the heroes were fighting with Dormammu on a physical level and it wasn't going well. Strange took on GR's power to bolster his own ability. Dormammu's remarks about the "paltry energies of a minor presence" suggest that he is still far more powerful than Strange, though the six arms makes me wonder if he's absorbed the powers of some other entity himself.

 

There seems to be something missing in the scans because there's a shift in focus from the physical battle to what seems to be a battle between Strange and Dormammu's astral forms. It looks like Strange only wins here by using the Eye of Agamotto to force Dormammu to face some unpleasant truths about himself. This apparently causes Dormammu to falter enough for the combined power of the heroes to overcome him. In other words, Dormammu was stronger than all of them combined, but clever strategy on Strange's part overcame this advantage.

 

Strange's victories over Dormammu (the ones I'm aware of) have all come about in similar ways. In one battle he was losing to Dormammu's superior power but managed to weaken him enough that the barrier to the realm of the Mindless Ones fell. Dormammu was too weakened by the conflict to raise them again by himself. Strange helped him and Dormammu essentially ceded him the victory (though without admitting defeat.) In another, the two had a formal duel with magical pincers. Dormammu was much stronger but strange used judo to win. I can't think of a single conflict Strange has won by overpowering Dormammu (though there are a number I haven't read.)

 

Dormammu also seems to be more powerful than Loki. He was certainly the stronger partner in the Avengers/Defenders War. Loki was blind at the time, but my impression was that he was the stronger anyway. I don't think Loki could have beaten Dormammu through sheer power, nor that he would have beaten him--as Strange has often done--through innovative tactics.

 

Loki overmastered Strange in a magic battle way, way back in Strange Tales. This was before Strange was Sorcerer Supreme and even before he had his cloak of levitation. Aside from this, I don't really remember Loki in magical conflict at all. He will throw bolts of magical power, and will use magic to teleport himself, but doesn't seem that interested otherwise. While Doom is potentially as good as Strange, he doesn't seem all that interested in using magic for battle either.

 

I'd have to say the question of who would win in a magic duel between Doom in Loki is an interesting one, but impossible to say because of scant evidence. My best guess (nothing more than a guess) is that Loki would have more raw power but that Doom would have greater skill and tactics. In other words, a classic boxer vs. slugger match which either could win.

 

Ultimately, I think it's irrelevant. This isn't how a fight between these two is going to be decided. They're not going to resort to something that's a secondary weapon in a tough fight.

[Indolent]

I provided links to DL the comic itself in the same post, Piranha - EF doesn't let me post all the scans in one post and I didn't want to spam so I just took the ones that exemplified what I stated.

 

Issues 48 and 49 provides some context for Issue 50 but issue 50 is where the fight takes place.

 

And Loki would actually have power and skill - he's literally the best in the Nine Realms next to Odin and equal to Karnilla, and Odin's only the best due to the Knowledge from the Well.

 

Which is why Doom would bring in tech to complement his magic anyways.

[Guest force_echo]

The Point was that Loki's innate magical power is superior to Dr. Strange's own innate magical power.

 

Principalities doesn't incorporate all the entities Dr. Strange can call upon. He can draw power from the likes of Satannish which as far as I know, isn't a Principality. He's even drawn power from obscure sources and even from the Olympian Deities, whom aren't Principalities either. So not aka all the beings who supply him his power. And I'd prefer a scan rather than a description for apt precise clarity if you'll understand. I'll find it and torrent it if necessary

 

I'm thinking it's more likely power-wise since Dormammu is essentially power incarnate - after all Loki uses his power for evil, which would incorporate his own cunning capability... which is no different than saying Dormammu utilizing his own vast power and wisdom for evil. Aside this: Dormmamu said Loki was near - and knowing what Dormmamu is... it's an obvious advantage in his favor in which defeated Loki clearly.

And I'm saying that that point is irrelevant, especially in comparing which one is overall more powerful.

 

In the Marvel Handbook, Principalities are a loosely defined group of magical beings who give Dr. Strange his power. There's never been a definite list of everyone who is a Principality because the term is loosely defined. And usually, when he draws power from beings like the Olympian Gods he says it out loud.

 

Dormammu doesn't have a great deal of Wisdom, that's kind of why Dr. strange constantly outsmarts him. And I'm pretty sure he's talking about the capacity to do evil rather than raw power, as raw power just doesn't make any sense because Loki has never, ever shown a single magical feat which puts him even in the same league as Dormammu, unless you have one I don't know about. Either that or he was drastically overestimating Loki's capabilities.

[Guest force_echo]

While Doom is potentially as good as Strange, he doesn't seem all that interested in using magic for battle either.

Doom uses magic in battle quite often. It was the only way he was able to defeat Iron Man. And, off the top of my head, he used in Children's Crusade quite a bit too. In fact, I might even say that he uses magic now more often than he uses tech.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

The question of innate power vs. drawing on principalities is an interesting one. Strange's greatest magical feats are when he invokes the names of the Vishanti, or other "godlings" as Dormammu calls them. A good example of this is his second conflict with Dracula when he used the Montessi Formula to eliminate all the vampires on earth. It's something he could not have done without calling on powerful entities.

 

What's less clear is how much of what Strange does is innate. When he casts a bolt of bedevilment or a shield of the Seraphim, is that innate power? He seems able to do it automatically and doesn't invoke an entity, but the names usually sound like these spells come from other entities. IMO, it's so nebulous where Strange's innate power leaves off and where the principalities begin that there's no easy way to separate them, except when he prepares an elaborate ritual and overtly calls on beings for their assistance. It's not that it's an invalid question, but I think it's largely moot in a discussion like this.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I provided links to DL the comic itself in the same post, Piranha - EF doesn't let me post all the scans in one post and I didn't want to spam so I just took the ones that exemplified what I stated.

 

Thanks! I'll check it out.

 

 

Doom uses magic in battle quite often. It was the only way he was able to defeat Iron Man. And, off the top of my head, he used in Children's Crusade quite a bit too. In fact, I might even say that he uses magic now more often than he uses tech.

 

I'm out of date on a number of things in the Marvel Universe. This is an interesting development.

[Indolent]

RAGE. I typed up a post and I crash as I try to post it, deleting the *vulgarity*ing thing. -.-

 

Here goes again:

 

Okay so it has no bearing on what I was discussing specifically, good to know.

 

Doesn't matter - Ghost Rider is most definitely not a Principality so it only proves the point I made: Not all entities Strange draws power from are of the Principalities. He didn't say anything aloud pertaining to the Principalities when he took Rider's mystical energies.

 

Wisdom =/= Cunning. Dormammu definitely has far more Wisdom than the likes of Strange in sense of knowledge and experience but Strange has far more Cunning than Dormmamu does - if you can see it. And I'm pretty sure he's speaking of Powers of Evil, as in Loki's capability being utilize for Evil, and the vast majority, aside from Loki's Genius Intellect in Cunning and Plotting, of his capability exists in magic - so if anything, being compared to Dormammu is a significant portrayal. And I wasn't trying to imply he was in the same league - I was trying to portray the enormity of his magic capability - I only said what Dormmamu said and the difference in between their abilities is a significant advantage for Dormmamu in the case of dealing with Loki.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

We don't know what the comparison was. We can reasonably deduce it was at least partly about evil character but, beyond that, its impossible to know. Maybe he was comparing Loki's magical power to Dormammu's, maybe not. Without knowing more about the context, we're can;t take this very far.

[Guest force_echo]

RAGE. I typed up a post and I crash as I try to post it, deleting the *vulgarity*ing thing. -.-

 

Here goes again:

 

Okay so it has no bearing on what I was discussing specifically, good to know.

 

Doesn't matter - Ghost Rider is most definitely not a Principality so it only proves the point I made: Not all entities Strange draws power from are of the Principalities. He didn't say anything aloud pertaining to the Principalities when he took Rider's mystical energies.

 

Wisdom =/= Cunning. Dormammu definitely has far more Wisdom than the likes of Strange in sense of knowledge and experience but Strange has far more Cunning than Dormmamu does - if you can see it. And I'm pretty sure he's speaking of Powers of Evil, as in Loki's capability being utilize for Evil, and the vast majority, aside from Loki's Genius Intellect in Cunning and Plotting, of his capability exists in magic - so if anything, being compared to Dormammu is a significant portrayal. And I wasn't trying to imply he was in the same league - I was trying to portray the enormity of his magic capability - I only said what Dormmamu said and the difference in between their abilities is a significant advantage for Dormmamu in the case of dealing with Loki.

And what you were discussing had no bearing on the discussion at large.

 

Yes, but you could clearly see that he got his powers from Ghost Rider through physical contact. When he just casts a spell, he's probably not getting that from Asgardian Gods, especially since he calls on them relatively rarely.

 

Aside from his intellect in Cunning and plotting? You do realize that's nearly all of his capability right? Loki, as far as magical power goes, is nowhere near as powerful as Dr. Strange is. It just simply doesn't make any sense from everything we've seen of Loki that he's near Dormammu's power level, which means that either Dormammu wasn't talking about sheer power, which is more likely, or that Dormammu overestimated Loki severely.