Rumble 13058 Magneto vs. Doctor Doom vs. Loki

[Indolent]

So then you still do not understand. Regardless, my point's been made, even if it's not clear to you as it was used as a means to distinguish his magical capability against the likes of Dr. Doom.

 

Regardless, you claimed that Dr. Strange draws power from, all of it if any, only the Principalities - the means of how he did so matters not:

 

And yes, while Strange usually beats Dormammu through tricking him or something like that, but in Dr. strange Sorcerer Supreme #48-49 Strange defeats him without the use of the Principalities, aka all of the mystical entities that supply Strange with power.

 

And there are so many other obscure entities he's called upon it's quite absurd to assume they're of the Principalities just as well unless every significant mystical entity is automatically associated with them... which doesn't make sense.

 

Now you're downplaying Loki as that is not nearly all of his capability whatsoever, a vast majority of it lies in his capable magical power, knowledge, and skill in its use and it makes sense considering his Father's compared Odin to the likes of Dormammu just as well. It's actually in the same scan - So he compared in terms of capability in terms of destruction and evil or so a la "evil powers", which means Loki's overall a potent adversary even if he's below Dormmamu in difference of sheer magical power. So aside from downplaying, he makes up for the difference with his capable skill and his intellect... even Strange regarded Dormmamu's use of his vast powers without finesse or skill in the issue #50, so it can't just be nearly all intellect, it's got to have a sizable portion owing to his own magical capability. Which pretty much proves my point in that, a comparison between natural capabilities, Strange pales in comparison. In fact, even before he became the Sorcerer Supreme in 1973, Loki owned him in magical skill and power whilst in Astral Form which confers only a fraction of his power and was only driven off by his Brother approaching to assist Strange. Becoming the Sorcerer Supreme vastly augmented his capability by far as he could call on entities and so afterwards...

 

Also at one point following after this he actually absorbed Dormmamu's power after being struck with the entirety of them and spent months learning how to utilize it as well as all that comes with, it was an arc involving the Evil Eye, an artifact Loki tricked Strange into creating - this might have bearing at hand in regard to the OP seeing as it's likely Loki at his best or most powerful. Food for thought.

[Guest force_echo]

Then explain how it distinguishes his magical ability against Dr. Doom. You can't, because it doesn't.

 

I actually said that whenever he doesn't draw from the Principalities, such as the Asgardians, it's pretty clear when he does. He was still throwing around magic bolts and casting shields and the like for the period where he was without the Principalities powers, and you can't say that he was getting his powers from the Asgardian Gods or Ghost Rider during that time period.

 

How does that not make sense? The Principalities were originally defined as beings who gave their powers to Dr. Strange, so how the hell does it not make sense that they include all beings who give their might to Dr. Strange?

 

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Evil Power probably takes into account his cunning and other shit, his overall capacity to do evil, so as far as raw magical capability goes, Loki is nowhere near Dormammu. Loki is only near Dormammu in Power of Evil because Dormammu is not as cunning, he just wants to enslave everyone and frankly, he's not very good at it. Loki, on the other hand, is vastly less powerful, but actually, I would say, more effective. Also, Loki beating Strange when Strange wasn't Sorcerer Supreme means nothing, since this is Sorcerer Supreme Strange. I also never debated the fact whether Loki is stronger than Strange without the Principalities because A- it doesn't matter in the slightest because Strange could still pwn the shit out of Loki in a magical duel, and B- I might be willing to accept the fact that Loki is as magically powerful as Strange without the Principalities except for a couple of things: First, the only real show of magical capability you have for Loki is a quote by Dormammu, a quote that probably doesn't even reflect Loki's magical power, and second, as Dinsdale pointed out, it's hard to know where Strange invokes the power of a Principality.

 

For example, here there's no mention given of any deity that's being called on, yet Strange is still able to do something that Loki cannot do by himself.

 

 

In fact, there are multiple extremely high end feats where no outside artifacts are mentioned nor any outside deities are called upon. When Dr. Strange destroys a planet, destroys a moon after fighting for 48 hours straight, stops a Supernova, a shield that stops Deathurge's arrow while Strange is holding the Earth together, etc. (If you need any of these scans just tell me). None of these feats ever have any mention of anything from the outside, so you can't prove that he's drawing upon outside power to do them.

[Indolent]

It does - Dr. Doom is inferior to Dr. Strange, and as he isn't empowered by the Mantle of Sorcerer Supreme as Strange is, he's weaker definitely, which implicates Loki being superior regardless due to the difference in physiology hence why Doom would compensate via technology.

 

Actually it's well known he draws magic power from his surroundings - he doesn't need to draw it only from entities - Case in point within the same Issues of either #48 or #49: After being extensively chased by high end entities such as Cyttorak and whatnot, he's weakened and draws on magical energy from his surroundings to replenish the lack due to utilizing his own store and being cut off from the Gods. He can also draw power from artifacts. So yes, it's entirely plausible to make a guess that Dr. Strange always draws some power from outside source because as a fact due to the physiology between the likes of a Human and an Asgardian, the latter's naturally got more magical power than the Human.

 

You're grasping at straws - Principalities were defined as groups of mystical entities that gave their powers to sorcerers that called upon them - they don't only gift to Strange and Ghost Rider, or to be accurate The Spirits of Vengeance, aren't called upon by the likes of Sorcerers for their power. Strange was cut off from the Principalities as he rejected them as the story shows. He isn't a Principality whatsoever. So trying to spin the Principalities aspect as to incorporate Ghost Rider in order to avoid being wrong is a little bit funny.

 

Very well in regard to Dormmamu - it is still a substantial feat regardless. And it matters still even to this day - it shows that Loki is superior twofold: Innate Magical Capability Power-wise and Actual Skill in the use of magic, in response to which Strange needs the superior firepower of the Sorcerer Supreme to compensate, which makes sense. As I've already stated - the entirety of the discussion wasn't to compare the full brunt of their capabilities, it was to compare between the two in regard to Dr. Doom - it was a though provoking session.

 

Strange doesn't only need to call upon deities for power - he can draw power from surroundings as I mentioned - i.e. that dark shadowy dimension within the scan. Dr. Strange is known for drawing magical power from elsewhere - it's the core of his character - he can draw it from artifacts, environments, or godly patrons - so making the claim that he's doing so under his own power is humorous considering the difference in the likes of physiology between the likes of Loki and Strange. Even for spells such as stopping time, he has to concentrate and channel energy in order to do so (which isn't on the casual as someone claimed, as the concentration shows otherwise from what I've seen). As for a comparison to some of these feats - Loki's been stated to be capable of decimating a planet with his powers. In all seriousness, the entire discussion stems from Loki's innate capability compared to the likes of Dr. Strange and therefore Dr. Doom's. As it intricately provides the point that Loki's essentially superior to Dr. Doom in terms of magic capability - I'm satisfied as is.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Didn't Loki say that the hammer taking spell was something only a mortal could cast? I had the sense that it was an arbitrary restriction on the spell rather than a lack of power that was the problem.

[Guest force_echo]

It does - Dr. Doom is inferior to Dr. Strange, and as he isn't empowered by the Mantle of Sorcerer Supreme as Strange is, he's weaker definitely, which implicates Loki being superior regardless due to the difference in physiology hence why Doom would compensate via technology.

 

Actually it's well known he draws magic power from his surroundings - he doesn't need to draw it only from entities - Case in point within the same Issues of either #48 or #49: After being extensively chased by high end entities such as Cyttorak and whatnot, he's weakened and draws on magical energy from his surroundings to replenish the lack due to utilizing his own store and being cut off from the Gods. He can also draw power from artifacts. So yes, it's entirely plausible to make a guess that Dr. Strange always draws some power from outside source because as a fact due to the physiology between the likes of a Human and an Asgardian, the latter's naturally got more magical power than the Human.

 

You're grasping at straws - Principalities were defined as groups of mystical entities that gave their powers to sorcerers that called upon them - they don't only gift to Strange and Ghost Rider, or to be accurate The Spirits of Vengeance, aren't called upon by the likes of Sorcerers for their power. Strange was cut off from the Principalities as he rejected them as the story shows. He isn't a Principality whatsoever. So trying to spin the Principalities aspect as to incorporate Ghost Rider in order to avoid being wrong is a little bit funny.

 

Very well in regard to Dormmamu - it is still a substantial feat regardless. And it matters still even to this day - it shows that Loki is superior twofold: Innate Magical Capability Power-wise and Actual Skill in the use of magic, in response to which Strange needs the superior firepower of the Sorcerer Supreme to compensate, which makes sense. As I've already stated - the entirety of the discussion wasn't to compare the full brunt of their capabilities, it was to compare between the two in regard to Dr. Doom - it was a though provoking session.

 

Strange doesn't only need to call upon deities for power - he can draw power from surroundings as I mentioned - i.e. that dark shadowy dimension within the scan. Dr. Strange is known for drawing magical power from elsewhere - it's the core of his character - he can draw it from artifacts, environments, or godly patrons - so making the claim that he's doing so under his own power is humorous considering the difference in the likes of physiology between the likes of Loki and Strange. Even for spells such as stopping time, he has to concentrate and channel energy in order to do so (which isn't on the casual as someone claimed, as the concentration shows otherwise from what I've seen). As for a comparison to some of these feats - Loki's been stated to be capable of decimating a planet with his powers. In all seriousness, the entire discussion stems from Loki's innate capability compared to the likes of Dr. Strange and therefore Dr. Doom's. As it intricately provides the point that Loki's essentially superior to Dr. Doom in terms of magic capability - I'm satisfied as is.

That makes no sense. Loki too is weaker than Dr. Strange empowered by the mantle of the Sorcerer Supreme. That's like saying both Spider-Man and a regular guy are weaker than Hulk, so the regular guy can take out Spider-Man. It makes absolutely no sense. So you have two people weaker than Dr. Strange. The argument has nothing at all in any way, shape, or form to do with innate magical capability.

 

You actually saw him draw power from artifacts/his surroundings, when he doesn't show it, you can't assume that he does, that's an argumentative failure. Just because you saw him drawing from artifacts or the surroundings doesn't mean he always does that.

 

I never said Ghost Rider was a Principality. If you actually try and read what I say, I'm not grasping at any straws, I'm making a purely logical argument that it seems you're incapable of understanding. I'm saying when he doesn't draw on a Principality, he visibly shows it via some source, obviously, or you wouldn't have known about it. You can't just say a random magic bolt is powered by the Asgardian Gods or Ghost Rider when there is no mention of that happening.

 

No, it doesn't. For some reason, you're assuming that all Strange gains from the point in time he fought Loki to the point in time he became Sorcerer Supreme is the ability to call on other magical entities, which is ridiculous. Strange would have gained more magical skill, experience, power, everything from that point in time. Loki beating Strange while he was simply in training proves absolutely nothing. When Batman first started out, he was severely hurt by a group of thugs. I guess modern Batman is incapable of taking down a group of thugs by your logic, since it's completely impossible that a person could gain more skill and/or experience. Also, your argument is deconstructing itself. You say that the Sorcerer Supreme mantle simply gives Strange the power to call on outside entities, and that's what makes him so powerful, but Strange clearly is capable of casting some spells and the like before he was Sorcerer Supreme, meaning that he has a magical power on him own.

 

I doubt Loki is capable of destroying a planet under his own purely magical power. Even so, Dr. Strange can easily destroy a planet also, he can also stop a Supernova, easily deflect an arrow that scares Celestials, casually destroy a planetoid after fighting intensively for 2 days straight, etc., etc., etc. And like I've said before, you can't assume that he is drawing sources from the outside when he does not show it, because every time he draws power from the outside, he visibly shows it. That's like saying since Silver Surfer used the Crunch one time, all of his feats come from channeling the Crunch. It's simply not true at all.