John Carter (film) vs Scar (AVP)

[RakaiThwei]

This is indeed the film version, good point, although i'm not entirely sure how that affects his skill. John is fighting with Martian swords, though, not human ones.

 

From what I remember, the film makes no mention of Immortality.

 

As far as sword skills goes... well.... The whole "Finest" swordsman thing is kind of a fallacy there. Probably he was in whatever military team he served but not the finest on Earth. Also what his level of skill with was a sword wasn't even mentioned in the movie, except that what we see is that he was exceptionally skilled.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Oh, I know which is fine and dandy but.. gravity doesn't work like that.

 

 

Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.

 

While I have seen the John Carter movie... considering that he was a roughly athletic male in conditioning... Could we maybe get some calculations here for his strength on what his level would be on Barsoom and compare it to a non-buffed Scar?

 

I mean assuming Carter is an athletic level male, he'd be able to maybe lift... twice his body weight at Max.

 

 

I can see how you'd make this assumption from the movie, but the books depict Carter as superbly conditioned, and amazingly skilled. It's his swordsmanship, not his Martian strength Scar has to worry about.

 

I mean I know that on Barsoom, he would be experiencing what would be called Exaggerated Muscle Output because of the difference in gravitional forces between Earth and Barsoom.

 

 

-Rakai'Thwei

 

For realistic math: the gravity of Mars is 37.9% that of earth, so a human on Mars would theoretically be capable of lifting 2.64 times as much weight. He could leap higher as well, though no more than 2.64 times what he could on earth and probably not that much.

 

The reduced gravity would not affect his durability at all, nor would it affect the power of his blows. How hard you can swing a sword depends on its mass, not its weight.

 

For ERB math... it can't be done. In the early stories Carter's strength is wildly inconsistent. Sometimes he's leaping dozens of yards and beating down Tharks and white apes, other times he's a little stronger than an athletic Martian man. In the later stories he pretty much drops the strength gimmick.

[Guest skadoosh]

John is clearly a very skilled swordsman, and generally a very capable warrior. And so is Scar.

[Guest skadoosh]

Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.

 

Thank you. Also, good points.

[RakaiThwei]

Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.

 

Which was what I said in a previous post. Which also brings us to the fact that now we do have an extensive amount of knowledge on Mars, and that this is the movie version which we are working with and that particular version is different from the Book.

 

I can see how you'd make this assumption from the movie, but the books depict Carter as superbly conditioned, and amazingly skilled. It's his swordsmanship, not his Martian strength Scar has to worry about.

 

Again... Not the books. This is the movie version which we are talking about... And speaking of the movie version, I just remembered that there are TWO movies of John Carter. Disney's version, and of course the Asylum's version.

 

Also, regarding his Swordsman ship... Scar is actually quite talented with a combi-staff. He's shown to have pretty impeccable technique with it.

 

For realistic math: the gravity of Mars is 37.9% that of earth, so a human on Mars would theoretically be capable of lifting 2.64 times as much weight. He could leap higher as well, though no more than 2.64 times what he could on earth and probably not that much.

 

So what you're saying is that despite Carter's strength on Barsoom, realistically speaking he would barely be Above Peak Human Strength. Now I can't tell you what the gravitational pull on the Yautja homeworld is like as far as definitive numbers are concerned, what I can tell you is that the planet has an asteroid belt around it similarly to how Saturn and Jupiter does as well, implying a very strong gravitational pull. More than likely, this is a factor in the strength of the Yautja as well as their anatomical differences and musculature, as well as bone density from human beings. On Earth, we know that they are superhumanly strong and the average Yautja-- and I mean your run of the mill Predator from Unblooded to Blooded in rank are somewhere in the 2 - 5 ton in strength range. And this is taking in the Expanded Universe, crossovers not counting. But there are Yautja who are stronger than the one's we commonly see... Some being crazy strong.

 

So really... It wouldn't matter if Carter had the buffs as far as Barsoom's gravity is speaking because Scar would still vastly outclass him.

 

For ERB math... it can't be done. In the early stories Carter's strength is wildly inconsistent. Sometimes he's leaping dozens of yards and beating down Tharks and white apes, other times he's a little stronger than an athletic Martian man. In the later stories he pretty much drops the strength gimmick.

 

Because you said it yourself... ERB had a weak grasp of what Mars was really like. Also, there were different writers for the books as well.

 

For the film version, it's easier to work with because modern interpretations of science fiction do use real science to make such works more believable.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Kind of Moot here since Skadoosh said this was the movie version.

 

 

Not really. The movie adheres pretty closely to the book on these points.

 

And Yautja blades are made from Dlex, which is vastly superior to steel as well.

 

 

True, but my point is that Carter has excellent weapons, not that they are better than the Yautja's.

 

 

The crossovers with Tarzan and Predator are not canon. You should really keep this in mind. While I haven't read the Tarzan vs Predator comic, I can tell you that most Yautja would be able to take Tarzan down with no problem whatsoever.

 

 

You know this based on your great knowledge of Tarzan?

 

I respect your knowledge of the Predator franchise. You know a lot more about them than I do.

 

However, your casual dismissal of John Carter and Tarzan seems a little arbitrary. Is it based on any real knowledge of the characters? If so, what?

[Indolent]

Pffft, Hulk wins

 

Oh shit, wrong thread.

[C.T.]

Stark, you are drunk, go home.

[Indolent]

I have appeared to lost my pants.

 

The Iron Man pants.

 

HELP ME FIND THEM NAMOR *trips*

[RakaiThwei]

Not really. The movie adheres pretty closely to the book on these points.

 

Not according to what my friend Scott has said, and he's read pretty much all of the Barsoom books. He's said that there were differences of the film and the books.

 

True, but my point is that Carter has excellent weapons, not that they are better than the Yautja's.

 

As long as we got that out of the way...

 

You know this based on your great knowledge of Tarzan?

 

I respect your knowledge of the Predator franchise. You know a lot more about them than I do.

 

However, your casual dismissal of John Carter and Tarzan seems a little arbitrary. Is it based on any real knowledge of the characters? If so, what?

 

I haven't ready any of the books of either Tarzan or John Carter.

 

However, I have seen numerous adaptatons of them. I've remember seeing the 1980s adaptation of Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan starring Christopher Lambert and Ian Holme. From what I know of that version of Tarzan, he was raised by Chimpanzees and was taught to use his senses to near superhuman levels. He also had peak human conditioning considering his lifestyle and animalistic upbringing. I do not recall him ever learning a martial art, and I do not recall him ever having senses which are superior to a Bloodhound's.

 

The Yautja are trained in a native martial art called Jehdin which is according to author Steve Perry, the creator of the Yautja mythos-- to be an almagation of Aikido, Penchak Silat, and Karate. It's supposedly a martial art which is more complex than what we have on Earth. Also, there are the physical strength differences and what not of the Yautja to their advantage.

 

If you want to discuss Tarzan vs Predator... PM me or whatever..

 

Regarding John Carter... I've only seen the Asylum movie and the Disney movie. If this were strictly the books, I wouldn't be talking in this thread but since this is the movie version.. Depending on which movie... probably affects my opinion of Carter. Though it's been a while since I've seen either movie.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

No srsly where my pants at

[C.T.]

*hands him Hawkeye's pants*

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Which was what I said in a previous post. Which also brings us to the fact that now we do have an extensive amount of knowledge on Mars, and that this is the movie version which we are working with and that particular version is different from the Book.

 

Are you saying that the movie is based on a modern scientific understanding of mars? If so, you are very much mistaken.

 

Again... Not the books. This is the movie version which we are talking about...

 

Again, the movie is faithful to the book in this respect. I don't understand why you--who has not read the books--insists that I--who has read the books--am wrong about this. It defies logic.

 

And speaking of the movie version, I just remembered that there are TWO movies of John Carter. Disney's version, and of course the Asylum's version.

 

Yes, there is a version that is faithful to the book and one which is not. What point are you making here?

 

Also, regarding his Swordsman ship... Scar is actually quite talented with a combi-staff. He's shown to have pretty impeccable technique with it.

 

The fact that Scar is a skilled warrior has not been in contention at any point in this discussion.

 

So what you're saying is that despite Carter's strength on Barsoom, realistically speaking he would barely be Above Peak Human Strength.

 

No. Carter's strength does not change, only his environment changes. He can lift several times as much and jump several times as far but not because he's become stronger. He may be stronger than the Martians but that's because they evolved in a lower gravity environment, not because he's gotten stronger.

 

Now I can't tell you what the gravitational pull on the Yautja homeworld is like as far as definitive numbers are concerned, what I can tell you is that the planet has an asteroid belt around it similarly to how Saturn and Jupiter does as well, implying a very strong gravitational pull.

 

The asteroid belt is a collection of objects that orbits the sun between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. I think what you mean is a planetary ring.

 

A ring does not imply anything about the gravity of a planet. Huge planets like Saturn and Jupiter have them but so does Saturn's moon Rhea, which is much smaller than the Earth.

 

More than likely, this is a factor in the strength of the Yautja as well as their anatomical differences and musculature, as well as bone density from human beings. On Earth, we know that they are superhumanly strong and the average Yautja-- and I mean your run of the mill Predator from Unblooded to Blooded in rank are somewhere in the 2 - 5 ton in strength range. And this is taking in the Expanded Universe, crossovers not counting. But there are Yautja who are stronger than the one's we commonly see... Some being crazy strong.

 

I've heard you make these claims about Yautja strength before. You seem knowledgeable and I have accepted this as a measure of respect. However, since the respect in this conversation is only running one way... prove it.

 

So really... It wouldn't matter if Carter had the buffs as far as Barsoom's gravity is speaking because Scar would still vastly outclass him.

 

The fact that Scar is stronger is not a point of contention. But you do need to prove your claims about how much stronger, and about how you know anything about Carter.

 

Because you said it yourself... ERB had a weak grasp of what Mars was really like. Also, there were different writers for the books as well.

 

No. All the Barsoom books were written by Edgar Rice Burroughs except for Synthetic Men of Mars which was probably finished by a ghostwriter.

 

For the film version, it's easier to work with because modern interpretations of science fiction do use real science to make such works more believable.

 

One more time. The movie we are discussing is NOT scientifically accurate. It IS faithful to the novel.

[Indolent]

THESE ARE NOT MY PANTS

[RakaiThwei]

Are you saying that the movie is based on a modern scientific understanding of mars? If so, you are very much mistaken.

 

Perhaps I am. I haven't read the books like you clearly seemed to have indicated, but it is my understanding that most science fiction films use elements of real science to make their films more believable.

 

Again, the movie is faithful to the book in this respect. I don't understand why you--who has not read the books--insists that I--who has read the books--am wrong about this. It defies logic.

 

See the above comment. Also, I never said you were wrong.

 

Yes, there is a version that is faithful to the book and one which is not. What point are you making here?

 

Skadoosh hasn't specified which version he's using.. That's my point.

 

The fact that Scar is a skilled warrior has not been in contention at any point in this discussion.

 

No, but a lot of people on this site like to really down play him. I won't name names though.

 

Part 2 of this post is coming up.

[Indolent]

lolwat

[RakaiThwei]

I've heard you make these claims about Yautja strength before. You seem knowledgeable and I have accepted this as a measure of respect. However, since the respect in this conversation is only running one way... prove it.

 

Whoah whoah...Let's get something straight here. If you think I am being in anyway condenscending towards you I am not. All I am saying is what the Yautja are more than capable of and what their potential is. Nowhere am I being disrespectful and if I am, it was not my intention of doing so. None at all whatsoever here. I have told you that I haven't ready any of the Carter books, so I cannot make a comparison between the movies and the books. Also it is to my understanding that the adaptation(s) and the books are different. Because I haven't read the books, it's hard for me to say what the differences between the books and the movies are. I'll have to ask Scott what the differences are when I see him at my local comic book store.

 

As far as the Yautja strength and capabilities go. Here is a link: http://www.electricferret.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26180

 

Be sure to read Smiley Predator's posts since he's got a lot of feats shown there. There is even footage from a game called Concrete Jungle, which is the first feat listed there as it shows a Yautja lifting a security blast door. It's also been discussed there too. Everything you want to know is in that very thread.

 

No. Carter's strength does not change, only his environment changes. He can lift several times as much and jump several times as far but not because he's become stronger. He may be stronger than the Martians but that's because they evolved in a lower gravity environment, not because he's gotten stronger.

The fact that Scar is stronger is not a point of contention. But you do need to prove your claims about how much stronger, and about how you know anything about Carter.

 

Which is something which I have been saying all ths time, albeit I probably have been miswording myself here. I have been saying that the reason Carter is strong is because of his lower gravity environment. That's what I have been saying or at least trying to say since the beginning of this very thread.

 

Regarding Scar's strength, his place holder is likely based on the performances we have seen other Unblooded and Young Blooded warriors perform at. Regarding Carter, fine.. You got me there, since all I have seen is nothing but the movie..

 

No. All the Barsoom books were written by Edgar Rice Burroughs except for Synthetic Men of Mars which was probably finished by a ghostwriter.

 

I was referring to works where other authors have expanded upon it.. like the John Carter/War of the Worlds novel crossover.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Not according to what my friend Scott has said, and he's read pretty much all of the Barsoom books. He's said that there were differences of the film and the books.

 

 

See, there's my mistake right there. I went to the source instead of to a really good source like your friend Scott.

 

There are differences. The Therns are introduced much earlier in the movie than in the books. The novel doesn't include the fight with the Arizona gunmen. There are a number of plot points in the movie that are different from the novel but none of them are germane to this discussion. John Carter's physical skills are faithfully represented in the movie.

 

As long as we got that out of the way...

 

I haven't ready any of the books of either Tarzan or John Carter.

 

It shows. If anyone dismissed the Predators on the basis of such complete ignorance you'd be all over them, and rightly so.

 

However, I have seen numerous adaptatons of them.

 

Which I'm sure are just as much canon as Tarzan vs. Predator at the Earth's Core.

 

I've remember seeing the 1980s adaptation of Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan starring Christopher Lambert and Ian Holme. From what I know of that version of Tarzan,

 

Where to start...

 

First, there are not numerous adaptations of John Carter, there are 2.

 

Second, Greystoke is not 'numerous adaptations' of Tarzan, it's just one movie and very definitely not canon. To be frank, there are canon problems with every movie and TV adaptation of Tarzan I have ever seen (I haven't seen all of them, BTW, just the Elmo Lincoln, Herman Brix, Johnny Weismuller, Gordon Scott, Mike Henry, Ron Ely, Joe Lara, Wolf Larsson, Christopher Lambert, and Casper can Deim versions. I've also seen the Filmation cartoons, and some of the Disney cartoons and maybe a few others I'm not thinking of now.)

 

I've also read all the original Tarzan novels (all written by ERB), and the authorized sequils by Fritz Leiber, Joe Lansdale, and Philip Jose Farmer. I've read the unauthorized stuff too, like some of the Barton Werper novels, Farmer's biography TARZAN ALIVE, and his pastiches. I've read many (though not all) of the newspaper strips, the DC comics, the Marvel comics, the Dark Horse Comics, and the Malibu Comics.

 

Though perhaps your knowledge is greater.

 

 

he was raised by Chimpanzees and was taught to use his senses to near superhuman levels. He also had peak human conditioning considering his lifestyle and animalistic upbringing. I do not recall him ever learning a martial art, and I do not recall him ever having senses which are superior to a Bloodhound's.

 

The apes in the movie were meant to be gorillas, not chimpanzees. Either would have been different from the novels where they are a species of great ape unknown to science and called the mangani. In THE RETURN OF TARZAN (by ERB) there is specific mention of him studying boxing, wrestling and jujitsu during his time in civilization. In this and subsequent novels us uses these skills. In TARZAN, THE LOST ADVENTURE, Joe Lansdale tells us that Tarzan has studied martial arts across the world. He specifically mentions that he's studied kung fu at the Shaolin Temple. I'd have to look up the thing about bloodhound smell.

 

The Yautja are trained in a native martial art called Jehdin which is according to author Steve Perry, the creator of the Yautja mythos-- to be an almagation of Aikido, Penchak Silat, and Karate. It's supposedly a martial art which is more complex than what we have on Earth. Also, there are the physical strength differences and what not of the Yautja to their advantage.

 

I have never disputed that the Yautja study martial arts.

 

If you want to discuss Tarzan vs Predator... PM me or whatever..

 

No thank you. I have no desire to continue this conversation.

 

Regarding John Carter... I've only seen the Asylum movie and the Disney movie. If this were strictly the books, I wouldn't be talking in this thread but since this is the movie version.. Depending on which movie... probably affects my opinion of Carter. Though it's been a while since I've seen either movie.

 

I could repeat myself here but I don't see any point.

[RakaiThwei]

See, there's my mistake right there. I went to the source instead of to a really good source like your friend Scott.

 

There are differences. The Therns are introduced much earlier in the movie than in the books. The novel doesn't include the fight with the Arizona gunmen. There are a number of plot points in the movie that are different from the novel but none of them are germane to this discussion. John Carter's physical skills are faithfully represented in the movie.

 

So those are the only differences? I haven't read the books, but at least you cleared that up.

 

It shows. If anyone dismissed the Predators on the basis of such complete ignorance you'd be all over them, and rightly so.

 

A LOT of people like to dismiss the Predators on a basis. It's been something which I have been trying to fight for years on this forum going back to 2006 and so far I feel like I have had to constantly drill it into their heads. I'd like to think I've extensively researched on Predator's quite thorougly and visited numerous forums and held discussions with many fans who know just as much or perhaps more than I do. I've even spoken to people who have worked on the films at conventions. But for some reason... people just want to lean for the human/human type character. In a forum of superheroes afficiandos... I feel as if the Yautja are criminally underrated and they would be able to take on many notable capes and masks alike.

 

But people, perhaps on a psychological level... don't like the idea of that.

 

I suppose my frustration and resentfulness gets the better of me and I get REALLY heated in debates. You'll have to excuse my brash approach.

 

Where to start...

 

First, there are not numerous adaptations of John Carter, there are 2.

 

Second, Greystoke is not 'numerous adaptations' of Tarzan, it's just one movie and very definitely not canon. To be frank, there are canon problems with every movie and TV adaptation of Tarzan I have ever seen (I haven't seen all of them, BTW, just the Elmo Lincoln, Herman Brix, Johnny Weismuller, Gordon Scott, Mike Henry, Ron Ely, Joe Lara, Wolf Larsson, Christopher Lambert, and Casper can Deim versions. I've also seen the Filmation cartoons, and some of the Disney cartoons and maybe a few others I'm not thinking of now.)

 

I've also read all the original Tarzan novels (all written by ERB), and the authorized sequils by Fritz Leiber, Joe Lansdale, and Philip Jose Farmer. I've read the unauthorized stuff too, like some of the Barton Werper novels, Farmer's biography TARZAN ALIVE, and his pastiches. I've read many (though not all) of the newspaper strips, the DC comics, the Marvel comics, the Dark Horse Comics, and the Malibu Comics.

 

To me it sounds like that ERB has had his works publicized and adapted by many different companies and people. I don't even know where to start with what concerning ERB's works and I just know that there are different adaptations of them and to me is sounds like a lot. I mean you just listed the many different intereptations of Tarzan out there and to me that sounds like quite a lot.

 

The apes in the movie were meant to be gorillas, not chimpanzees. Either would have been different from the novels where they are a species of great ape unknown to science and called the mangani. In THE RETURN OF TARZAN (by ERB) there is specific mention of him studying boxing, wrestling and jujitsu during his time in civilization. In this and subsequent novels us uses these skills. In TARZAN, THE LOST ADVENTURE, Joe Lansdale tells us that Tarzan has studied martial arts across the world. He specifically mentions that he's studied kung fu at the Shaolin Temple. I'd have to look up the thing about bloodhound smell.

 

That's something I never even knew. All I had was an adaptation to go on regarding Tarzan. And none of them really so much as made mention of Tarzan learning skills like boxing, Jujitsu and of course Shaolin Kung-Fu. That is something which I don't think a LOT of people on this site here know where as you probably do. I will say, this makes me see Tarzan in a different light than just a guy who swings on trees and just has animalistic instinct and strength going for him.

 

Regarding the senses of the Yautja... Here is an archived site which hasn't been updated since 2007 and closed down since Geocities went away... But it's archived. I do suggest that you have a damn good firewall and online shield because while the site is archived... it kind of has an exploit. So... be warned: http://oocities.com/gunsandgod/

 

I have never disputed that the Yautja study martial arts.

 

No, you haven't... I suppose it's just my aggressive way of thinking and seeing things clouding my judgement. A lot of people really like to downplay the Yautja, and say so-and-so wins because of whatever reason.. Now I don't know you too very well, so I kind of have this... negative attitude towards newcomers on this site and assumed you were going to be like everyone else, always wanting to downplay something like everyone else.. Again, you'll have to excuse my brash approach towards things.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

People downplay them? One could argue people wank them on the site. o,o

[C.T.]

Wankity wank, yo.

[Indolent]

STOP STALKING ME EVAN

[RakaiThwei]

People downplay them? One could argue people wank them on the site. o,o

 

I don't think so. I'm just going by what I've researched and seen in the expanded universe.

 

Wankity wank, yo.

 

Stop playing with yourself, Nova. You'll go blind.

 

-Rakai'Thwei

[Indolent]

I think so.

[C.T.]

Make me Ethan!

 

Ok Rakai!