Rumble 13568 Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) vs. Power Man & Iron Fist

[The Void]

And yet Thing holds up a oil rig which is far above 80 tons.

 

And yet Marvel still only list his strength at a 6 and not 7 with other 100 tonners like Thor, Gladiator, Sentry, Namor(in Water), Hercules,Hulk,etc...From what I understand Marvel uses their strength level differently from real life.

http://marvel.com/universe/Thing_(Benjamin_Grimm)

 

^^^And that's an official powergrid by Marvel.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

 

You're the one who brought up the Midgard serpent and I dismissed it. Simple. What does Thor knocking over the leaning tower prove? Thor did NOT LIFT IT, he only pushed it over it. Also the fact that the tower was already leaning.

 

No I am not saying that that 90 tonners are multi-thousands tonners if you actually read my post clearly. I'm saying that Thor knocking over the leaning tower is irrevelant. That's like me knocking over already leaning huge tree and saying I can lift.

 

Seriously again...If you read my post than you would k now I said Thor been surpassed Wonder Man in his classic days, meaning he wasn't limited to 90 tons but only in his classic days.. -__- Don't believe? Than look up his Marvel handbook from the 60s...

 

I brought it up as an example of Thor performing a feat well over 90 tons, then didn't mention it again. You said you'd post all that crap about why it's not a valid feat if I asked, and I didn't. Way to waste your time and mine.

 

Are you kidding me? I could lift a dinner table, but I couldn't push one over with my bloody finger. And it doesn't matter whether it's already leaning or not, it s still a feat that'd require several hundred, if not thousand, tons of weight.

 

Except you never said that, at all. You claimed it was something an 80-tonner like the Thing could pull off because he's held up an oil rig. And I challenge you to go find a tree with a structural weakness and make it fall over by tapping it with your finger.

 

I have no idea what your point was supposed to be in that last part, but again, feats from the comics > handbooks. Thor knocking over the tower of Pisa by tapping it, which is a feat that'd require well over 90 tons' worth of force to perform (before you question the tower's structural integrity, yes, it has a weakness, but it's a weakness that's been able to hold up the Tower all this time).

 

Edit: ...Dude. It doesn't matter what Marvel say, because he's been seen performing feats that far exceed 80 tons.

[The Void]

I brought it up as an example of Thor performing a feat well over 90 tons, then didn't mention it again. You said you'd post all that crap about why it's not a valid feat if I asked, and I didn't. Way to waste your time and mine.

We mentioned it multiple times but whatever.

 

Are you freaking kidding me? I could lift a dinner table, but I couldn't push one over with my bloody finger. And it doesn't matter whether it's already leaning or not, it s still a feat that'd require several hundred, if not thousand, tons of weight.

Again he did not lift it which would require a lot of strength.

 

Except you never said that, at all. You claimed it was something an 80-tonner like the Thing could pull off because he's held up an oil rig. And I challenge you to go find a tree with a structural weakness and make it fall over by tapping it with your finger.

1. Yeah because Thor did not actually lift it which would require more strength.

2. If the tree is leaning in the opposite direction I'm pushing it then yeah since gravity is helping me...

 

I have no idea what your point was supposed to be in that last part, but again, feats from the comics > handbooks. Thor knocking over the tower of Pisa by tapping it, which is a feat that'd require well over 90 tons' worth of force to perform (before you question the tower's structural integrity, yes, it has a weakness, but it's a weakness that's been able to hold up the Tower all this time).

 

1. It appeared that you were thinking I said Thor was always limited to 90 tons when I said Thor strength increased from 90 tons to 100 tons in his early days thus surpassing Wonder Man. Hulk wasn't all that strong in his very early days.

2. Handbooks are made by the official company who writes the comics so yeah.

3. I just want to point out that Marvel using strength levels differently. Again Thor did not lift it which would require a lot of strength, he only pushed a already leaning object, yes impressive that he only used a finger, but again it was already leaning an gravity would have helped him.

 

Anyways this is getting off topic. I'm done.

[Guest force_echo]

1: Umm, it would be impressive if Gold's shields actually stood up to a hit from Doomsday, but they didn't. After he hit them, they collapsed, so you can't base an argument saying "Rand's hits aren't as strong as Doomsday's" because the fact is that his shield can't even stand up to Doomsday.

 

2: He has Luke Cage to throw him, so that's pretty irrelevant.

 

3. Even if his force field could contain Rand and Cage for a while, it doesn't mean he wins. Eventually they'll give out, and then he's still screwed.

[C.T.]

1. Fair enough.

 

2. Um what? That hardly makes it irrelevant. Cage could throw him, but unless I'm mistaken Rand can not change his trajectory once thrown, so Booster can easily dodge by flying higher, lower, to the left, to the right et cetera.

 

3. Possibly.

[Indolent]

1. We don't even know how much he actual form(the one that Thor pulled, not the one that was crushing Earth) weights.

2. The Thing has always been stated to be around 80 tons.

I was also referencing the Pisa Tower.

 

Instead of actually relying mainly on what Marvel has said, utilize your brain.

 

We see they've performed feats outside their "stated range by Marvel" consistently and constantly.

 

Ergo, while they can claim all they want, it's more than 80 and 90 tons by far respectively. Simple logic/reasoning there, it isn't difficult. -.-

[The Void]

I was also referencing the Pisa Tower.

 

Instead of actually relying mainly on what Marvel has said, utilize your brain.

 

We see they've performed feats outside their "stated range by Marvel" consistently and constantly.

 

Ergo, while they can claim all they want, it's more than 80 and 90 tons by far respectively. Simple logic/reasoning there, it isn't difficult. -.-

 

Um...Because its Marvels word and I think they know their characters more than any of us.

 

Anyways I'm still going with team two. Iron Fist was able to one shot and destroy a shield helicarrier. With that amount of striking power I think he can easily go through Gold's shield.

[C.T.]

Yeah...except in Marvel comics, he has shown far above that. So disproven.

 

Fair enough...if he could hit him.

[The Void]

Yeah...except in Marvel comics, he has shown far above that. So disproven.

 

Fair enough...if he could hit him.

 

Yet Marvel still continues to list him as that and Marvels strength levels are different from real life thinking.

 

Iron Fist would most likely hit him, before he even takes flight. Has fast can Gold even move?

[C.T.]

His flight ring enables him to go at supersonic speeds in general, though he can go faster in bursts.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Thor didn't really lift the Midgard serpent...And it was stated by Marvel that him and Wonder Man were class 90 back in their classic days. Its not an opinion..

 

What is your source?

[The Void]

His flight ring enables him to go at supersonic speeds in general, though he can go faster in bursts.

 

Okay thanks. If Gold stays in flight then maybe he wont have as much problems. But I believe Danny has fought people with flight powers. IDK I'll check,

 

 

What is your source?

 

1. Midgard serpent feat? I already posted scans for why its not credible.

2. Read Marvel's Legacy 1960's Handbook that's my 'source'.

 

Anyways lets get back on topic, I already said I was done.

[Guest bigballerju]

What year is that Marvel handbook? Do you have a updated version? By the way Doomsday and Iron-fist are not on the same level Force. If Booster can survive a beating from Doomsday in two battles then he can most definitely take any damage Luke Cage gives him and put Cage down.

 

Also Booster's force field like what's been repeated many times were originally Brainac's. Superman level beings couldn't break them so I doubt Iron-Fist will. Doomsday breaking through them only shows you how much more powerful he is then Superman and how much power is required to break them. Not even Superman could break those shields.

[The Void]

^^^^I meant to say 1960s. Yes its dated since Thor has become more stronger.

 

Also Gold's shields stated by me and Echo's has not withstood repeated blows from Doomsday, I remember Gold getting pummeled by DD.

 

 

And IIRC Echo's said one of his other fights with DD wasn't even a real DD IIRC. Also Iron Fist was able to knock out Hercules, Hercules who is at least on par with Superman or stronger...

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Also Booster's force field like what's been repeated many times were originally Brainac's. Superman level beings couldn't break them so I doubt Iron-Fist will.

 

Brainiac 5, but yeah.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Also Gold's shields stated by me and Echo's has not withstood repeated blows from Doomsday, I remember Gold getting pummeled by DD.

 

Daredevil pummeled Booster Gold? Cool!

 

aHEM... Getting back to the shield thing. I think we're all in agreement about some basic points.

 

1) Doomsday broke through the shield

2) Domsday did not break through the shield on his first attempt

3) Doomsday pummled Booster Gold

4) Booster Gold survived the fight, thanks to the shield

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Luke Cage vs. Booster Gold.

 

Luke has the potential to beat Booster. In a fist fight, Luke has an edge (not a huge one) in strength, and an edge (a much bigger one) in durability. If Booster hides behind his shield, Luke is not powerful enough to break through. The flip side to that is Booster can't attack either until he drops the shield.

 

Booster has the potential to beat Luke. The shield is an excellent defense and can buy him breathing room any time Luke gets an advantage. His flight ring allows him to stay out of Luke's range and his blasters, while not powerful to take Luke out with one shot, are enough to wear him down. If Booster keeps his distance and uses hit and run tactics, he can win.

 

This is what is called a boxer vs slugger match in boxing, two different styles, and the one who gets the pace of the fight to match his style is going to win. So it comes down to who is the the more intelligent fighter. In terms of raw intelligence, that's hard to judge but in terms of how they apply their intelligence to fighting, it's easy. Booster was a dillitante who thought it would be fun to be a superhero. He matured a lot in courage, will, and fighting ability through his career. He became a much better fighter but is still a bit of a goof-ball at heart. Luke Cage has been fighting all his life. He fought on the streets of Harlem, he fought in prison, and he fought as a superhero for hire. He is relentless, shrewd, and willing to do anything he needs to do to win. Psychologically, he is a much tougher fighter than Booster, and I believe that makes the difference.

 

Iron Fist vs. Booster Gold

 

Iron Fist has the potential to beat Booster Gold. He is much more skilled in hand to hand combat. While I don't think his normal attacks would get through Booster's suit, the suit doesn't protect his chin or the top of his head. Iron Fist has successfully fought flying opponents before (the first IIRC was Boomerang.) His tactic is to lure them close where his skills and Iron Fist can finish the fight. He is a very elusive fighter and could probably dodge Booster's blasters enough to frustrate him. Also, Booster's not really a thoughtful fighter. It he thinks he's just facing a costumed martial artist, he won't see any reason to put up his force shield. Without it, Danny can one-shot him with the iron fist.

 

Booster has the potential to beat Iron Fist; all he has to do is play it smart. If he doesn't get impatient, flying and firing his blasters will eventually get the job done. A flying opponent with a long range weapon has always been a real challenge for Iron Fist. If he sees the iron fist coming, his force shield will block it. Yes, Iron Fist knocked out Hercules, but cheap-shotting a drunken guy in a bar is much easier than knocking the same guy out when he's sober and fighting back. Under the circumstances, I have no doubt that Superboy or Mon El could have done the same thing. Only monsters like Doomsday and Validus have broken that shield and they clearly hit much harder than either Superman or Hercules.

 

In the end, this fight also comes down to tactics, but there's a difference. For Iron fist to win be has to come up with some really brilliant tactics. He can do this, but it's hard. On the other hand, for Booster to win, all he has to do is avoid making a really dumb mistake. I've got to give it to Booster.

 

I don't think Blue Beetle is a non-factor in the fight. Iron Fist is almost certain to beat him, but he's fast and resourceful and a good enough fighter that it won't be a quick victory. He'll make sure that Cage and Danny don't double team Booster.

 

I do think this goes to Cage and Iron fist, but it's close and an excellent match-up.

[Guest bigballerju]

^^^^I meant to say 1960s. Yes its dated since Thor has become more stronger.

 

Also Gold's shields stated by me and Echo's has not withstood repeated blows from Doomsday, I remember Gold getting pummeled by DD.

 

 

And IIRC Echo's said one of his other fights with DD wasn't even a real DD IIRC. Also Iron Fist was able to knock out Hercules, Hercules who is at least on par with Superman or stronger...

 

Yeah umm Booster Gold fought the real Doomsday the first time the JLA fought Doomsday when he showed up and again in Flashpoint. Hercules is stronger then Superman? Yeah I don't know about that. Go look at that Superman weakness thread where we discuss how strong Superman is. Also Ironfist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove Hercules is as strong as Doomsday and can break through Booster's shields.

 

Yeah Booster getting pummeled by Doomsday on two occasions in two different fights and surviving both shows you how much damage he can take in a fight.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

The Sith won the vote. A good rationalization you could use would be that Sidious was able to use the force to telekinitically switch off each of the nano-components of Nimrod's body.

[The Void]

Yeah umm Booster Gold fought the real Doomsday the first time the JLA fought Doomsday when he showed up and again in Flashpoint. Hercules is stronger then Superman? Yeah I don't know about that. Go look at that Superman weakness thread where we discuss how strong Superman is. Also Ironfist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove Hercules is as strong as Doomsday and can break through Booster's shields.

 

Yeah Booster getting pummeled by Doomsday on two occasions in two different fights and surviving both shows you how much damage he can take in a fight.

 

1. BG was getting beat badly by Doomsday.

2. I already know how strong Superman is trust me I'm a Superman fan. But Hercules being stronger than Superman is debatable and Hercules feats rivals Superman's(If you want me to post some feats than I will). And Hercules was said to be the strongest character in Marvel.

3. I believe Hercules is stronger than Doomsday especially current Hercules. Hercules is even way stronger than Thor. But I think DD would beat Hercules in a fight since he adapts.

4. I know BG can take a lot of damage but how much? Also Iron Fist has healing.

 

This is still a close fight though.

[C.T.]

He could time travel dump them. Just saiyan.

[Guest bigballerju]

Not only that Iron-Fist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove he is as powerful as Doomsday nor does it mean he could break Booster's shield.

[Guest force_echo]

Again, even if he uses his field and he flies, he still can't beat Fist or Cage because he doesn't have the offensive capability. Also, Danny has ranged attacks in the form of Chi Blasts, so flying isn't that great of an aid. Also, Gold's force field didn't stand up to 1 attack from Doomsday. Also, I'm pretty sure you're missing something with the Braniac example. Either Superboy and Mon-El were weaker, or Booster's field was amped up by Braniac somehow, because that's not consistent with the fields other showings. Also, Gold is naturally reluctant to use the force field as it opens up his immune system for attack.

 

Iron Fist's ability to control energy fields is new, only being introduced in Immortal Iron Fist, which is probably why he couldn't absorb "containment" energy before. Also, the force field probably wouldn't protect against more arcane abilities, like the Mind Meld.

[The Void]

Not only that Iron-Fist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove he is as powerful as Doomsday nor does it mean he could break Booster's shield.

 

I never said Iron Fist knocking out Hercules meant he is more powerful than Doomsday. I was comparing their striking power...Meaning Iron Fist was able to knock out Hercules who is probably more stronger(strength wise) than Doomsday. If Iron Fist is able to not knockout someone as strong as Hercules than he can possibly get pass the shields. And I think I do remember Gold's shielding being amped.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

A couple of good points here.

 

A ranged attach (Chi blasts) would help even things between Iron Fist and Booster Gold.

 

Booster's reluctance to use his force field is good to know about. Since this is pretty much the only decisive edge he has in the fight, his reluctance to use it makes a big difference.

 

 

You also have several interesting (but thus far unproven) speculations.

 

It's possible that mind meld could help win the fight if 1) it's been shown to work at a distance and 2) it's been shown to work through force fields. I've seen Iron Fist use the mind meld but only when he's touching someone. Do you have evidence that he can use it through a force field and on a foe he is not touching? If so, that makes a difference. If you don't have evidence it is just speculation and has no value in this discussion.

 

Your assertion that his new control over energy fields would allow him to take down Booster's shield could be significant, if there is and evidence to support it. Has Iron Fist ever used this ability to disable a force field? If so, was he able to do it to an exceptionally powerful force field? If you have a scan, or at least an issue number that's evidence. If he has not done something like this, it's just speculation and is of no use in this discussion.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure you're missing something with the Braniac example. Either Superboy and Mon-El were weaker, or Booster's field was amped up by Braniac somehow, because that's not consistent with the fields other showings.

 

This statement makes me think you haven't been paying attention to my points. You seem to think I am referring to a story in which Booster Gold was fighting Superboy and Mon El with the help of Brainiac. I am not. For one thing, I am talking about Brainiac 5, not Brainiac. Brainiac 5 is a distant descendant of the original Brainiac but they are not the same character. Brainiac 5 is a member of the Legion of Superheroes.

 

The original Brainiac developed a force field so powerful that not even Superman could break through it. He used this invention regularly through the 50s through at least the 80s.

 

Brainiac 5 rediscovered the original Brainiac's forcefield. He created a belt that would project the shield around him or others. He even adapted it so the force field could be projected around the Legion clubhouse (yes, they called a clubhouse for a long time.) The belt was Brainiac 5's main weapon for more than 40 years of publication history. It was repeatedly shown to be so powerful that not even Superboy, Supergirl, Mon El, or Ultra Boy could break through. It resisted energy blasts from Lightning Lad, Sun Boy, and Wildfire with no problem. It was one of the few things that could stand up to the Persuader's axe or the blasts of the Emerald Empress's giant eye. The only being I can remember in all the Legion adventures who ever broke through it was Validus, a monstrous being who was powerful enough to take out Superboy or Mon El with a single blow.

 

At some point, Brainiac 5 donated the belt and his Legion flight ring to a museum. The man who became Booster Gold stole the items, along with other future technology and came back to the late 20th century to become a superhero.

 

In sum:

 

It was Brainiac 5 and not the original Brainiac who created the force field belt that Booster used.

At no time has the original Brainiac boosted the power of the belt.

Superboy, Mon El and others who failed to break through the force field were operating at full power.

 

If you're still certain there's something wrong with my argument, I won't begrudge you your convictions. However, if you want to persuade me that I'm wrong, you'll have to produce some evidence sometime.