The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!

[The Void]

Grodd is a master telepath, gaining control of Shiva means he would know all of her training and memories, I highly doubt Grodd controlling her hindered he in anyway. Plus, Batman wasn't *vulgarity*ing around, he was thinking of what she did to Selina, and just KOed her out of controlled rage.

 

"No one is talking, seems they are not acting of their own accord."

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

"No one is talking, seems they are not acting of their own accord."

Grodd making her not talk =/= her martial art prowess being restricted.

[The Void]

Grodd making her not talk =/= her martial art prowess being restricted.

 

Just because he had control of her martial arts does not mean he would be able to use it right like Shiva would...Anyways I'm going try and make this off topic.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Just because he had control of her martial arts does not mean he would be able to use it right like Shiva would...Anyways I'm going try and make this off topic.

Why wouldn't he? He has full access to all of her memories, and Grodd is certainly smart enough to use those memories to replicate her martial arts ability.

[The Void]

Why wouldn't he? He has full access to all of her memories, and Grodd is certainly smart enough to use those memories to replicate her martial arts ability.

 

Yeah but how would he know what Shiva would do in the current situation? And do we know Grodd had full access to all her memories?

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Garth remembers me of Frank Miller. Frank Miller hates those powerful type of heroes. Both are like opposites of each other in that regard.

 

Frank is a little different, IMO. He doesn't like the goody goody heroes like Superman or Captain America. He likes all characters to be dark and gritty and when he uses someone who doesn't fit that mold he makes them dangerously naive.

[C.T.]

Oh god, that Punisher vs Daredevil, Wolverine and Spider-Man scan was the most retarded thing I've ever seen.

 

NOPE!

[corvette1710]

You're right. He's looked in your general direction before.

 

[AVP vs The Terminator]

ZIIIING!

[C.T.]

You little bitch.

[corvette1710]

[Guest sirmethos]

-snip-

 

 

"Okay, Punisher takes out DD Wolverine and Spidey in 2 pages. How does he do this?

 

1) Wolverine is too stupid to see that he's being set-up and DD and Spiderman choose not to warn him.

2) Spiderman is too stupid to stick with DD and his Spider-sense fails to warn him of the danger.

3) Daredevil is too stupid to break his fall with both arms, despite the fact that he;s been in this situation dozens of times before."

 

Punisher didn't take out Wolverine(at least not in the scan(s) posted). He got a direct hit on him with a rocket launcher, which took out the majority of his torso. Wolverine has healed from worse than that before(and after). At best, he temporarily incapacitated him, probably so he wouldn't interfere while Castle took out the other two.

 

1. There's no reason for DD and Spider-Man to warn Wolverine, with his enhanced senses, he would have heard them taking off(jumping away). A little knowledge about Wolverine, says that he(logan) just might have chosen to ignore it. He knows how effective his own healing factor is, as well as the protection offered by his skeleton. Taking whatever trap that Punisher had set up, would prevent it from doing more than minimal damage to Spider-Man and DD. Wolverine can take it, and get up afterwards without a scratch. Any injury that Spider-Man and DD takes, is likely to slow them down(even if only a little bit), when they would need to be at 100% when they actually face Castle.

 

2. Again, a little knowledge about the character, and his capabilities, goes a long way. Spider-Man not sticking with DD, fits with the character. If you look at the majority of team-ups Spider-Man has had, he almost never sticks with whoever he's teamed up with. Which is understandable, since he's used to working alone, and relying on his Spider-Sense. His spider-sense not warning him, also fits with how the power actually works. It only warns him of immediate danger. The fact that the pressure plates don't trigger the explosives when being stepped on, means that there is no reason for the Spider-Sense to warn him about them. Nor is there any reason for it to warn him of the explosives, since they are not an immediate danger, when he jumps into the room.

 

3. If you actually look at the scan, Punisher is actually holding on to DD's left arm, which prevents him from using that arm to break his fall.

 

 

"Castle could probably have beaten any one of these guys after a difficult fight (though he would lost more often than win, at least to Wolverine and Spiderman.) Beating all three this easily requires a huge amount of out of character stupidity."

 

In a scenario similar to the one in the scan, I.e. Punisher being prepared, and having prepared the area before the 'hero' arrives, he would beat any one of those three, 10 out of 10. Due to planning, knowledge of his opponents, and sheer ruthlessness.

 

Beating all three(as seen/shown in the scan), simply requires those same things.

 

 

 

"I don't know how fast Burnout was, but lat's take Punisher's Mach 2 statement literally. That's just over 47 times as fast as Usain Bolt. She's also moving 60% faster than castle's bullets. The writer didn't put enough thought into this. He only allowed for how difficult it is to hit a speeding target and didn't think about how easy it is for Burnout to dodge a bullet that, from her perspective. is moving about like a slow-pitch softball. Unless Punisher's bullets are much faster than normal bullets, this one it also PIS."

 

There's also the fact that Burnout was completely new to her powers(having only had them for a few months, if that). Or the fact that she wasn't actually looking at Punisher(hence, not actually seeing the bullets, unless they pass through her field of vision).

 

You're also taking the Mach 2 statement literally, when it was not actually a direct statement about her speed, but rather an analogy. We don't know her actual speed, aside from the fact that she's faster than "a speeding train".

 

The 'conclusion' that the incident is PIS, is based on a bunch of assumptions, and misrepresentation of character statements.

 

 

"As for shooting both of Spider Man's webshooters... I remember that issue. I don't have any issue with the idea that Punisher is accurate enough to do this, but he does it awfully quickly. Spidey is in mid air in this scene, meaning he can't dodge, but he could move his hands out of the path of the shots. The fact that Punisher is able to get off 2 shots before Spider-man can move his hands. This would only be possible if Punisher's reflexes were much faster than Spidey's."

 

There is no reason for Spider-Man to move his hands. He has plenty of experience with people shooting at him, and he relies on his Spider-Sense to guide his movements. Shooting at the web-shooters, is not actually a danger to him, thus the Spider-Sense doesn't warn him about it, hence, he has no reason to move.

 

 

"Not only that, but Marvel Handbook states that Spider-man's reflex time is enhanced to the point where he really can dodge a bullet fired at point blank range. He is much faster than it's humanly possible to be because of his superpowers.

 

So, to shoot off both of his webshooters, not only does Punisher have to have faster reflexes than Spidey, he also needs to be shooting bullets that are much faster than normal bullets."

 

I'll refer you to my last point, I would just be repeating myself here -.-

 

 

"It's either that or PIS."

 

Yea, or there might actually be a logical explanation for it, that actually fits with the characters and their capabilities. An outlandish idea, I know, but just maybe.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

"Okay, Punisher takes out DD Wolverine and Spidey in 2 pages. How does he do this?

 

1) Wolverine is too stupid to see that he's being set-up and DD and Spiderman choose not to warn him.

2) Spiderman is too stupid to stick with DD and his Spider-sense fails to warn him of the danger.

3) Daredevil is too stupid to break his fall with both arms, despite the fact that he;s been in this situation dozens of times before."

 

Punisher didn't take out Wolverine(at least not in the scan(s) posted). He got a direct hit on him with a rocket launcher, which took out the majority of his torso. Wolverine has healed from worse than that before(and after). At best, he temporarily incapacitated him, probably so he wouldn't interfere while Castle took out the other two.

 

1. There's no reason for DD and Spider-Man to warn Wolverine, with his enhanced senses, he would have heard them taking off(jumping away). A little knowledge about Wolverine, says that he(logan) just might have chosen to ignore it. He knows how effective his own healing factor is, as well as the protection offered by his skeleton. Taking whatever trap that Punisher had set up, would prevent it from doing more than minimal damage to Spider-Man and DD. Wolverine can take it, and get up afterwards without a scratch. Any injury that Spider-Man and DD takes, is likely to slow them down(even if only a little bit), when they would need to be at 100% when they actually face Castle.

 

2. Again, a little knowledge about the character, and his capabilities, goes a long way. Spider-Man not sticking with DD, fits with the character. If you look at the majority of team-ups Spider-Man has had, he almost never sticks with whoever he's teamed up with. Which is understandable, since he's used to working alone, and relying on his Spider-Sense. His spider-sense not warning him, also fits with how the power actually works. It only warns him of immediate danger. The fact that the pressure plates don't trigger the explosives when being stepped on, means that there is no reason for the Spider-Sense to warn him about them. Nor is there any reason for it to warn him of the explosives, since they are not an immediate danger, when he jumps into the room.

 

3. If you actually look at the scan, Punisher is actually holding on to DD's left arm, which prevents him from using that arm to break his fall.

 

 

"Castle could probably have beaten any one of these guys after a difficult fight (though he would lost more often than win, at least to Wolverine and Spiderman.) Beating all three this easily requires a huge amount of out of character stupidity."

 

In a scenario similar to the one in the scan, I.e. Punisher being prepared, and having prepared the area before the 'hero' arrives, he would beat any one of those three, 10 out of 10. Due to planning, knowledge of his opponents, and sheer ruthlessness.

 

Beating all three(as seen/shown in the scan), simply requires those same things.

 

 

 

"I don't know how fast Burnout was, but lat's take Punisher's Mach 2 statement literally. That's just over 47 times as fast as Usain Bolt. She's also moving 60% faster than castle's bullets. The writer didn't put enough thought into this. He only allowed for how difficult it is to hit a speeding target and didn't think about how easy it is for Burnout to dodge a bullet that, from her perspective. is moving about like a slow-pitch softball. Unless Punisher's bullets are much faster than normal bullets, this one it also PIS."

 

There's also the fact that Burnout was completely new to her powers(having only had them for a few months, if that). Or the fact that she wasn't actually looking at Punisher(hence, not actually seeing the bullets, unless they pass through her field of vision).

 

You're also taking the Mach 2 statement literally, when it was not actually a direct statement about her speed, but rather an analogy. We don't know her actual speed, aside from the fact that she's faster than "a speeding train".

 

The 'conclusion' that the incident is PIS, is based on a bunch of assumptions, and misrepresentation of character statements.

 

 

"As for shooting both of Spider Man's webshooters... I remember that issue. I don't have any issue with the idea that Punisher is accurate enough to do this, but he does it awfully quickly. Spidey is in mid air in this scene, meaning he can't dodge, but he could move his hands out of the path of the shots. The fact that Punisher is able to get off 2 shots before Spider-man can move his hands. This would only be possible if Punisher's reflexes were much faster than Spidey's."

 

There is no reason for Spider-Man to move his hands. He has plenty of experience with people shooting at him, and he relies on his Spider-Sense to guide his movements. Shooting at the web-shooters, is not actually a danger to him, thus the Spider-Sense doesn't warn him about it, hence, he has no reason to move.

 

 

"Not only that, but Marvel Handbook states that Spider-man's reflex time is enhanced to the point where he really can dodge a bullet fired at point blank range. He is much faster than it's humanly possible to be because of his superpowers.

 

So, to shoot off both of his webshooters, not only does Punisher have to have faster reflexes than Spidey, he also needs to be shooting bullets that are much faster than normal bullets."

 

I'll refer you to my last point, I would just be repeating myself here -.-

 

 

"It's either that or PIS."

 

Yea, or there might actually be a logical explanation for it, that actually fits with the characters and their capabilities. An outlandish idea, I know, but just maybe.

 

Just asking a question(haven't read the issue)but how is Punisher able to tackle DD out of a window?

[The Void]

Uh oh...Sirmethos has entered. Shit just got real.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Uh oh...Sirmethos has entered. Shit just got real.

 

Yeah, I was hoping this wouldn't die.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Well, Spider-Man's Spidey Sense obviously warned him of the rocket being fired at him when they were on the rooftop. Why didn't he warn Wolverine and/or help him out of the way? Healing factor or no, it's something Spider-Man would have done were he being written in character, but he wasn't.

 

You'd also think that, being a genius, Spider-Man would have the sense to actually look through the window before he jumped in, especially since he knew he was dealing with Frank Castle (who's about as cunning as they come). I'd also love to know how Castle was able to tackle Daredevil in the first place. If he was taken by surprise, then fair enough. I'm not denying that, if Punisher was sufficiently prepared, he could take the three out, but the way he did it in those scans was ridiculous.

 

I know Garth Ennis was trying to be comical and everything (at least, I hope he was), but he characterized the heroes horribly, Wolverine screaming for help being the prime example of OOC-ness.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Uh oh...Sirmethos has entered. Shit just got real.

[The Void]

Well, Spider-Man's Spidey Sense obviously warned him of the rocket being fired at him when they were on the rooftop. Why didn't he warn Wolverine and/or help him out of the way? Healing factor or no, it's something Spider-Man would have done were he being written in character, but he wasn't.

 

You'd also think that, being a genius, Spider-Man would have the sense to actually look through the window before he jumped in, especially since he knew he was dealing with Frank Castle (who's about as cunning as they come). I'd also love to know how Castle was able to tackle Daredevil in the first place. If he was taken by surprise, then fair enough. I'm not denying that, if Punisher was sufficiently prepared, he could take the three out, but the way he did it in those scans was ridiculous.

 

I know Garth Ennis was trying to be comical and everything (at least, I hope he was), but he characterized the heroes horribly, Wolverine screaming for help being the prime example of OOC-ness.

 

I almost died of laughter from that...

[C.T.]

Does Spider Man have night vision in that mask of his? Otherwise he wouldn't really be able to see anything, given it was completely dark before he stepped on the plate and Punisher turned on the light...

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Does Spider Man have night vision in that mask of his? Otherwise he wouldn't really be able to see anything, given it was completely dark before he stepped on the plate and Punisher turned on the light...

 

No, but most human eyes have the capacity to see well enough to notice dozens of large green explosives even in the dark.

[Guest sirmethos]

"Well, Spider-Man's Spidey Sense obviously warned him of the rocket being fired at him when they were on the rooftop."

 

Oh really?

 

I might be going blind, but I didn't see Spider-Man's Spider-Sense warning him of anything. DD and Spider-Man jumped away as soon as Wolverine read the note. Punisher only fired the rocket, after that.

 

 

"Why didn't he warn Wolverine and/or help him out of the way? Healing factor or no, it's something Spider-Man would have done were he being written in character, but he wasn't."

 

Spider-Man has worked with Wolverine before, and has seen him charge into situations, completely ignoring danger(usually gunshots). He also knows that Wolverine has enhanced senses, and has tons of experience.

 

But yea, Spider-Man figuring that Wolverine is probably aware of the danger, and is fully capable of handling the situation, is completely out of character for Spider-Man[/sarcasm]

 

 

"You'd also think that, being a genius, Spider-Man would have the sense to actually look through the window before he jumped in, especially since he knew he was dealing with Frank Castle (who's about as cunning as they come)."

 

You'd also think that, not being extremely visually impaired, you would have looked at the scan, and noticed Punisher only turning the lights on after Spider-Man has stepped on the pressure plate.

 

There's also, as I already pointed out, the fact that Spider-Man relies on his Spider-Sense. Venom, among others, has commented that Spider-Man is extremely easy to follow, as long as you don't trigger his Spider-Sense, because he(peter) doesn't actually look around to see if he's being follow, because he relies completely on his Spider-Sense to warn him about any danger.

 

 

"I'd also love to know how Castle was able to tackle Daredevil in the first place. If he was taken by surprise, then fair enough."

 

I don't actually remember that one. But if someone can tell me the specific issue, I'll look up, and if needs be, post the scan.

 

 

"if Punisher was sufficiently prepared, he could take the three out, but the way he did it in those scans was ridiculous.

 

Actually, the way he did it in those scans, was fairly realistic, and generally fit with the characters, and their capabilities.

 

 

 

"I know Garth Ennis was trying to be comical and everything (at least, I hope he was), but he characterized the heroes horribly, Wolverine screaming for help being the prime example of OOC-ness."

 

Wolverine calling for help, is the only real OOC-ness in the scan(s). Though there might be more in the comic as a whole.

[Guest sirmethos]

No, but most human eyes have the capacity to see well enough to notice dozens of large green explosives even in the dark.

 

Most human eyes, have the capacity to notice the large bright light of the rocket exploding, just seconds before, and the knowledge/experience to know that a person's night-vision is shot to hell after something like that.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

"Well, Spider-Man's Spidey Sense obviously warned him of the rocket being fired at him when they were on the rooftop."

 

Oh really?

 

I might be going blind, but I didn't see Spider-Man's Spider-Sense warning him of anything. DD and Spider-Man jumped away as soon as Wolverine read the note. Punisher only fired the rocket, after that.

 

 

"Why didn't he warn Wolverine and/or help him out of the way? Healing factor or no, it's something Spider-Man would have done were he being written in character, but he wasn't."

 

Spider-Man has worked with Wolverine before, and has seen him charge into situations, completely ignoring danger(usually gunshots). He also knows that Wolverine has enhanced senses, and has tons of experience.

 

But yea, Spider-Man figuring that Wolverine is probably aware of the danger, and is fully capable of handling the situation, is completely out of character for Spider-Man[/sarcasm]

 

 

"You'd also think that, being a genius, Spider-Man would have the sense to actually look through the window before he jumped in, especially since he knew he was dealing with Frank Castle (who's about as cunning as they come)."

 

You'd also think that, not being extremely visually impaired, you would have looked at the scan, and noticed Punisher only turning the lights on after Spider-Man has stepped on the pressure plate.

 

There's also, as I already pointed out, the fact that Spider-Man relies on his Spider-Sense. Venom, among others, has commented that Spider-Man is extremely easy to follow, as long as you don't trigger his Spider-Sense, because he(peter) doesn't actually look around to see if he's being follow, because he relies completely on his Spider-Sense to warn him about any danger.

 

 

"I'd also love to know how Castle was able to tackle Daredevil in the first place. If he was taken by surprise, then fair enough."

 

I don't actually remember that one. But if someone can tell me the specific issue, I'll look up, and if needs be, post the scan.

 

 

"if Punisher was sufficiently prepared, he could take the three out, but the way he did it in those scans was ridiculous.

 

Actually, the way he did it in those scans, was fairly realistic, and generally fit with the characters, and their capabilities.

 

 

 

"I know Garth Ennis was trying to be comical and everything (at least, I hope he was), but he characterized the heroes horribly, Wolverine screaming for help being the prime example of OOC-ness."

 

Wolverine calling for help, is the only real OOC-ness in the scan(s). Though there might be more in the comic as a whole.

 

Spider sense would be pretty useless if it warned him of something while it was happening. It gives a warning seconds before, to which Spider-Man reacts.

 

As for Daredevil, in the same issue(Nova posted the scan) Punisher is able to tackle DD out a window, which is simply absurd.

 

Most humans have the common sense to not stare at a rocket when it explodes.

[C.T.]

Not really. Even the best have an off day/be caught by surprise etc. In regards to Punisher tackling Daredevil.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Really? An off day? That's your argument?