The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!

[C.T.]

I didn't get the whole comic, just those scans off the respect thread, so I couldn't say. Just guessing there.

 

Off day, caught by surprise(more likely)

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Just because we didn't see the spider sense go off, doesn't mean it didn't. There was a freaking rocket about to be fired at him, of course it went off. Regardless, whether it was his Spider Sense or just common sense, he'd still have helped Wolverine. He saw Wolverine sitting on the rooftop like an idiot as a rocket came at him, I think he'd have helped.

 

Yeah, and look at the panel just before he enters the apartment, you'll notice that there's a source of light shining on/around the window - I'm guessing it's a street lamp. I'm pretty sure that would've lightened up the apartment's interior enough for Parker to see the ton of explosives by the wall.

 

Although, you do have a point in that he relies on his Spider Sense more often than not.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I didn't get the whole comic, just those scans off the respect thread, so I couldn't say. Just guessing there.

 

Off day, caught by surprise(more likely)

 

Just saying, when Punisher tries to tackle DD, what should have happened was he gets thrown through the window.

[Guest sirmethos]

"Spider sense would be pretty useless if it warned him of something while it was happening. It gives a warning seconds before, to which Spider-Man reacts."

 

It's true that it would be useless if it warned him while it was happening. It's not true that it gives a warning "seconds before". The warning generally comes less than 0.1 second before the fact.

 

 

"As for Daredevil, in the same issue(Nova posted the scan) Punisher is able to tackle DD out a window, which is simply absurd."

 

How, exactly, is it "absurd"? Daredevil has no enhanced reflexes, and he has less mass than Punisher.

 

 

"Most humans have the common sense to not stare at a rocket when it explodes."

 

1. You don't have to stare directly at the explosion, for your night-vision to be messed up.

 

2. Spider-Man left Wolverine behind. Even with the knowledge that Wolverine is more than capable of handling himself, Spider-Man is still the kind of person that would check to make sure that he(logan) is still alive.

 

 

"Just because we didn't see the spider sense go off, doesn't mean it didn't."

 

That's true. The fact that the Spider-Sense doesn't give that much pre-warning, means that it didn't(at that point). Spider-Man and DD jumped away before the Spider-Sense would have warned him.

 

 

"Regardless, whether it was his Spider Sense or just common sense, he'd still have helped Wolverine. He saw Wolverine sitting on the rooftop like an idiot as a rocket came at him, I think he'd have helped."

 

1. See earlier my comments about why he didn't warn him.

 

2. Warning Wolverine, would have tipped off Punisher.

 

In trying to make the incident(s) seem like PIS, you're low-balling the 'heroes', namely their intelligence, and their knowledge about Punisher.

 

 

He has the common sense to look through the window(despite not being able to see anything, with his night-vision messed up), but he doesn't have the common sense, to not warn the extremely dangerous opponent, in a way that would probably make him more dangerous. Yea, that makes sense.

 

 

"Yeah, and look at the panel just before he enters the apartment, you'll notice that there's a source of light shining on/around the window - I'm guessing it's a street lamp. I'm pretty sure that would've lightened up the apartment's interior enough for Parker to see the ton of explosives by the wall."

 

Look at the next picture, where you actually see Spider-Man inside the apartment, before Punisher turns on the light. There's no light, at all.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

"Spider sense would be pretty useless if it warned him of something while it was happening. It gives a warning seconds before, to which Spider-Man reacts."

 

It's true that it would be useless if it warned him while it was happening. It's not true that it gives a warning "seconds before". The warning generally comes less than 0.1 second before the fact.

 

 

"As for Daredevil, in the same issue(Nova posted the scan) Punisher is able to tackle DD out a window, which is simply absurd."

 

How, exactly, is it "absurd"? Daredevil has no enhanced reflexes, and he has less mass than Punisher.

 

 

"Most humans have the common sense to not stare at a rocket when it explodes."

 

1. You don't have to stare directly at the explosion, for your night-vision to be messed up.

 

2. Spider-Man left Wolverine behind. Even with the knowledge that Wolverine is more than capable of handling himself, Spider-Man is still the kind of person that would check to make sure that he(logan) is still alive.

 

 

"Just because we didn't see the spider sense go off, doesn't mean it didn't."

 

That's true. The fact that the Spider-Sense doesn't give that much pre-warning, means that it didn't(at that point). Spider-Man and DD jumped away before the Spider-Sense would have warned him.

 

 

"Regardless, whether it was his Spider Sense or just common sense, he'd still have helped Wolverine. He saw Wolverine sitting on the rooftop like an idiot as a rocket came at him, I think he'd have helped."

 

1. See earlier my comments about why he didn't warn him.

 

2. Warning Wolverine, would have tipped off Punisher.

 

In trying to make the incident(s) seem like PIS, you're low-balling the 'heroes', namely their intelligence, and their knowledge about Punisher.

 

 

He has the common sense to look through the window(despite not being able to see anything, with his night-vision messed up), but he doesn't have the common sense, to not warn the extremely dangerous opponent, in a way that would probably make him more dangerous. Yea, that makes sense.

 

 

"Yeah, and look at the panel just before he enters the apartment, you'll notice that there's a source of light shining on/around the window - I'm guessing it's a street lamp. I'm pretty sure that would've lightened up the apartment's interior enough for Parker to see the ton of explosives by the wall."

 

Look at the next picture, where you actually see Spider-Man inside the apartment, before Punisher turns on the light. There's no light, at all.

 

How is it absurd that an extremely skilled H2H combatant was tackled by a guy whose H2H is nothing comparatively? Punisher would have been tossed through the window.

[treacherous]

This one is a brawl. Can't wait to see the results, but after my Top CBUB character results, I'm thinking I see where it'll go. Let's see if debating wins over Fan wankery.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I think we should move the debate back to Punisher vs Batman.

[Guest force_echo]

Yeah, it might be absurd. You know what else is absurd? Batman dodging bullets. Seriously, if he tries to block the bullets with his arm, at the very least his arm is going to be broken, what's probably going to happen is that the bullets will rip through his arm and implant themselves in his chest. Seriously, Batman's armor is only rated for small calibers, that has been said time and time again in the Batman comics. One of Two Face's .38 revolver rounds ripped through his armor, as well as a bullet from the Penguin's freaking Umbrella Gun. Frank is going to be using assault rifles, heavy caliber sniper rifles, freaking rockets and grenades, his armor is a red herring argument, as well as the fact that Batman can dodge bullets. How is he even going to dodge a sniper round? Can you tell me that? He can't hear the bullet, he can't see the muzzle flash, how the freak is he going to dodge it? If Frank sees Batman, he's dead.

 

Let's see the winning conditions. If Batman is going to win, he has to get within H2H range (not even "close combat" range, H2H) of the Punisher, remaining completely unseen despite all of Punisher's tech, escaping all of his traps, and avoid being tactically outmaneuvered, and probably having to draw him out of a tactically advantageous position.

 

If The Punisher is going to win, he has to see Batman through the scope of a rifle.

 

EDIT: As far as the scan goes, even if Spider-Man or Daredevil warned Wolverine, he doesn't nearly have the speed or agility they do. He wouldn't be able to escape the blast radius of the rocket.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Yeah, it might be absurd. You know what else is absurd? Batman dodging bullets. Seriously, if he tries to block the bullets with his arm, at the very least his arm is going to be broken, what's probably going to happen is that the bullets will rip through his arm and implant themselves in his chest. Seriously, Batman's armor is only rated for small calibers, that has been said time and time again in the Batman comics. One of Two Face's .38 revolver rounds ripped through his armor, as well as a bullet from the Penguin's freaking Umbrella Gun. Frank is going to be using assault rifles, heavy caliber sniper rifles, freaking rockets and grenades, his armor is a red herring argument, as well as the fact that Batman can dodge bullets. How is he even going to dodge a sniper round? Can you tell me that? He can't hear the bullet, he can't see the muzzle flash, how the freak is he going to dodge it? If Frank sees Batman, he's dead.

 

*Sigh* As I already stated, the point is not that he will be doing so, just that if he is that fast, he can therefore dodge bullets. I posted multiple scans of him doing so, so instead of complaining, try actually countering. Also, they start 100 ft away, not with Frank 2 miles away with a barret. Also, Batman's armor had tanked multiple shells as well, and seeing as he has prep, he will be wearing heavier armor than usual.

 

 

Let's see the winning conditions. If Batman is going to win, he has to get within H2H range (not even "close combat" range, H2H) of the Punisher, remaining completely unseen despite all of Punisher's tech, escaping all of his traps, and avoid being tactically outmaneuvered, and probably having to draw him out of a tactically advantageous position.

What are you babbling about? Smoke pellets, flashbang, stealth. If he gets anywhere close he can KO Frank with a batarang to small and fast to be dodged.

 

If The Punisher is going to win, he has to see Batman through the scope of a rifle.

 

Stop fan wanking. I have already proven that Batman can dodge bullets, so this is not instant victory. Batman beats Deadshot, a far superior gunman than Frank.

 

EDIT: As far as the scan goes, even if Spider-Man or Daredevil warned Wolverine, he doesn't nearly have the speed or agility they do. He wouldn't be able to escape the blast radius of the rocket.

[The Void]

^^^You can quote text....Much better and easier. Just a saying.

[treacherous]

I know this is Batman vs Punisher, but to fact check, last I checked Wolverine had a 5 agility on the Marvel and Daredevil had a 4. That might've changed, but yeah... Wolverine has much better agility.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

"Okay, Punisher takes out DD Wolverine and Spidey in 2 pages. How does he do this?

 

1) Wolverine is too stupid to see that he's being set-up and DD and Spiderman choose not to warn him.

2) Spiderman is too stupid to stick with DD and his Spider-sense fails to warn him of the danger.

3) Daredevil is too stupid to break his fall with both arms, despite the fact that he;s been in this situation dozens of times before."

 

Punisher didn't take out Wolverine(at least not in the scan(s) posted). He got a direct hit on him with a rocket launcher, which took out the majority of his torso. Wolverine has healed from worse than that before(and after). At best, he temporarily incapacitated him, probably so he wouldn't interfere while Castle took out the other two.

 

1. There's no reason for DD and Spider-Man to warn Wolverine, with his enhanced senses, he would have heard them taking off(jumping away). A little knowledge about Wolverine, says that he(logan) just might have chosen to ignore it. He knows how effective his own healing factor is, as well as the protection offered by his skeleton. Taking whatever trap that Punisher had set up, would prevent it from doing more than minimal damage to Spider-Man and DD. Wolverine can take it, and get up afterwards without a scratch. Any injury that Spider-Man and DD takes, is likely to slow them down(even if only a little bit), when they would need to be at 100% when they actually face Castle.

 

I don't think this idea fits at all with the dialogue we see on the page. When DD and Spidey leap away, Logan is staring at the paper repeating the word "suckers." The clear implication is that he's confused and has no idea this is a trap.

 

When Spider-Man reaches the building, Wolverine's voice comes in from off-panel stammering "help me." That's doesn't fit with your idea that he took the shot deliberately. It is consistent with the idea that he was acting like an amateur and an idiot. As Treacherous said, this is consistent with Garth Ennis' characterization of Wolverine. The story he alludes to is one in which Punisher literally blows off Wolverine's face with a shotgun and parks a steamroller on top of him. Like this one, it's effective at showing Punisher as smart and well-prepared, but he undercuts himself by making Wolverine a fumbling idiot.

 

As for DD and Spiderman not warning him, I don't think that can be deliberate. When someone shoots at your friend (or ally or whatever) the reflexive response is to warn them. There isn't really time to reflect on whether he might survive or not and make an informed decision. Besides, by warning him, they'd be saving him from terrible suffering.

 

 

2. Again, a little knowledge about the character, and his capabilities, goes a long way. Spider-Man not sticking with DD, fits with the character. If you look at the majority of team-ups Spider-Man has had, he almost never sticks with whoever he's teamed up with. Which is understandable, since he's used to working alone, and relying on his Spider-Sense. His spider-sense not warning him, also fits with how the power actually works. It only warns him of immediate danger. The fact that the pressure plates don't trigger the explosives when being stepped on, means that there is no reason for the Spider-Sense to warn him about them. Nor is there any reason for it to warn him of the explosives, since they are not an immediate danger, when he jumps into the room.

 

You're right about the splitting up. It's not a good decision, especially with Daredevil shouting at him not to do it, but it's not out of character. I have to disagree about the spider-sense, though. The fact that he's about to step on a landmine trigger is immediate danger. It's a threat from a non-living trap rather than from a living assailant, but the sense has warned him of threats from non-living agencies before. It's never been stated (to my knowledge) exactly how this works, but the Spider-sense is triggered by anything that's going to hurt Spidey in the very immediate future. I don't see how the Punisher's trap fails to qualify.

 

3. If you actually look at the scan, Punisher is actually holding on to DD's left arm, which prevents him from using that arm to break his fall.

 

You're right about one of DD's arms being pinned. The way this went, it believable because it put DD in a position where, if he didn't avoid the initial tackle, he would be helpless to keep his arms from being dislocated. It's feasable.

 

The idea that Punisher could have planned this out is a little contrived. His plan would have to involve...

- Knowing what window DD would use to enter the building (that's not too hard)

- Knowing that could successfully tackle a faster opponent in a way that pinned one but not both of his arms. (This is pushing it a bit)

- Knowing that DD would successfully catch the railing with his free arm (Thus one is pretty iffy, and guessing wrong would resuly in serious injury or possibly death for both men)

But, aside from that, it's reasonable.

 

"Castle could probably have beaten any one of these guys after a difficult fight (though he would lost more often than win, at least to Wolverine and Spiderman.) Beating all three this easily requires a huge amount of out of character stupidity."

 

In a scenario similar to the one in the scan, I.e. Punisher being prepared, and having prepared the area before the 'hero' arrives, he would beat any one of those three, 10 out of 10. Due to planning, knowledge of his opponents, and sheer ruthlessness.

 

I think any of the three would be in serious danger in the situation, but don't think the outcome would be 10 out of 10 in any case. Since there's no objective way to determine this we'll just have to disagree.

 

Beating all three(as seen/shown in the scan), simply requires those same things.

 

I'll concede that he has the potential to beat all three at once. I still maintain that this scene doesn't do a good job of establishing this because it requires all three to behave with much less than their usual competence.

 

"I don't know how fast Burnout was, but lat's take Punisher's Mach 2 statement literally. That's just over 47 times as fast as Usain Bolt. She's also moving 60% faster than castle's bullets. The writer didn't put enough thought into this. He only allowed for how difficult it is to hit a speeding target and didn't think about how easy it is for Burnout to dodge a bullet that, from her perspective. is moving about like a slow-pitch softball. Unless Punisher's bullets are much faster than normal bullets, this one it also PIS."

 

There's also the fact that Burnout was completely new to her powers(having only had them for a few months, if that). Or the fact that she wasn't actually looking at Punisher(hence, not actually seeing the bullets, unless they pass through her field of vision).

 

I don't know why you say this. In panel 1 she appears to be running straight at Punisher and is also looking straight at him. In panel 2 we don't see her at all and have no way of knowing what she is looking at. In panel 3 the bullet appears to hit her from directly in front.

 

This is a little confusing because Punisher's plan makes sense if she's moving laterally but would be unnecessary if she was running straight at him as it appeared. Running straight at him would be foolish because it would give him the easiest shot while making it much harder to dodge than if she was moving laterally. Maybe she was running toward him on a zig zag course. It's impossible to say based on this scan. In any case, I don't know why she would be looking at something other than the man shooting at her.

 

You're also taking the Mach 2 statement literally, when it was not actually a direct statement about her speed, but rather an analogy. We don't know her actual speed, aside from the fact that she's faster than "a speeding train".

 

That's true, and there's no way of knowing how fast she really is. I wasn't aware of the speeding train statement.

 

Currently, the world's fastest train it in Shanghai and has a record of 302 mph. If we assume that this is the speeding train they mean and that she is only slightly faster, that's something like 310 mph. Does that sound reasonable?

 

Castle (according to Marvel Handbook) usually uses 9mm Parabellum ammunition in handguns. That travels at 1300 ft/sec or 886 mph. If these assumptions are correct, that means she's moving at 34% of the speed of Punisher's bullets. That'd be like Usain Bolt dodging bullets moving at 80 mph (close to the top velocity of a tennis ball cannon) which is still pretty easy until you get close.

 

The 'conclusion' that the incident is PIS, is based on a bunch of assumptions, and misrepresentation of character statements.

 

There are still a lot of assumptions here because of the lack of evidence. I have tried not to misrepresent anything.

 

"As for shooting both of Spider Man's webshooters... I remember that issue. I don't have any issue with the idea that Punisher is accurate enough to do this, but he does it awfully quickly. Spidey is in mid air in this scene, meaning he can't dodge, but he could move his hands out of the path of the shots. The fact that Punisher is able to get off 2 shots before Spider-man can move his hands. This would only be possible if Punisher's reflexes were much faster than Spidey's."

 

There is no reason for Spider-Man to move his hands. He has plenty of experience with people shooting at him, and he relies on his Spider-Sense to guide his movements. Shooting at the web-shooters, is not actually a danger to him, thus the Spider-Sense doesn't warn him about it, hence, he has no reason to move.

 

That could explain the first webshooter, but when he saw what Punisher was doing why wouldn't he move his other hand?

 

"Not only that, but Marvel Handbook states that Spider-man's reflex time is enhanced to the point where he really can dodge a bullet fired at point blank range. He is much faster than it's humanly possible to be because of his superpowers.

 

So, to shoot off both of his webshooters, not only does Punisher have to have faster reflexes than Spidey, he also needs to be shooting bullets that are much faster than normal bullets."

 

I'll refer you to my last point, I would just be repeating myself here -.-

 

 

"It's either that or PIS."

 

Yea, or there might actually be a logical explanation for it, that actually fits with the characters and their capabilities. An outlandish idea, I know, but just maybe.

 

If you come up with one, let me know.

[C.T.]

No no, his spider sense would not go off if he stepped on the pressure plate. You're right, it goes off if there's immediate danger. He stepped onto the pressure plate. Nothing happened.

 

Now where his spider sense would have gone off, is when he attempts to lift his foot out of the hole he made, which would trigger the explosives. But he didn't do that, because Punisher told him what would happen.

[Guest bigballerju]

Honestly I doubt the Marvel Handbook itself could keep up with the ever changing weapons Punisher uses in his books. Punisher is always getting new type of weapons to use and upgrading his gear, As far as Spiderman warning his friend. Alot of heroes when they team with Wolverine don't warn him when danger is near. That's something that's always stuck with the character because of his enhanced senses,skills, and the fact Wolverine will attack whenever he pleases.

 

It's very believable with Punisher's experience he could plan out the scene the way he does. He is highly trained for things like that. Characters like Deathstroke, Punisher, Batman, and others are that precise with there prep. Should it happen the way it did in that comic? Maybe...Maybe not...That depends on the writer on how they make it play out and there knowledge on the character's abilities.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Well this is the part of the thread where everyone rehashes old points, and no one changing their mind. Might as well put it to a vote.

[C.T.]

Punisher.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

So, stepping on the plate isn't dangerous because it's stepping back off that triggers the explosion? That sounds like a technical nicety one that a lawyer might appreciate but I can't see a danger sense being so legalistic.

 

If Spider-man steps on the plate he will be blown up. The fact that there's an intermediate step doesn't change that.

[The Void]

No voting. I made this thread to see an intense DEBATE. Which is why I didn't make this a regular match in he CBUB Battles.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

No voting. I made this thread to see an intense DEBATE. Which is why I didn't make this a regular match in he CBUB Battles.

Out of all the threads that go on for this long, they lose their intensity IMO, As I said, it is at the point of the same things being repeated. I think everyone here has their mind locked on who they think will win.

 

Just saiyan.

[The Void]

Out of all the threads that go on for this long, they lose their intensity IMO, As I said, it is at the point of the same things being repeated. I think everyone here has their mind locked on who they think will win.

 

Just saiyan.

 

Yeah like you said everyone has their mind locked on who will win, so whats the point of voting. IMO I don't think everything has been said on why either one wins.

 

Just saiyan.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Yeah like you said everyone has their mind locked on who will win, so whats the point of voting.

I'd hope when people go to vote for anything, they'd have their mind made up.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Batman.

[C.T.]

It's possible that Punisher was just bluffing(something he is known for doing) and Spidey was never in any real danger at all(thus why the spider sense doesn't go off).He's just trying to let the panic and such from a percieved threat keep Spidey from thinking clearly. For example, webbing the explosives away or something. Punisher is taking a gamble that Parker wouldn't be thinking clearly and that incapcitates him temporarily. Castle using psychology instead of physicality.

 

But that's just speculation/theorizing.

 

[Guest thanosisawesome]

True, but it does affect when his spider sense would go off.

 

And then we can go the further route, that Punisher was just bluffing(something he is known for doing) and Spidey was never in any real danger at all. He's just trying to let the panic and such to keep Spidey from thinking clearly. For example, webbing the explosives away or something. Punisher is taking a gamble that Parker wouldn't be thinking clearly and that incapcitates him temporarily. Castle using psychology instead of physicality.

 

But that's just speculation.

 

That does seem like a logical argument. But there is immediate danger involved with stepping on the plate, so I believe his senses would go off.

[C.T.]

How? Nothing happened at all to Spidey when he stepped on the plate that was remotely dangerous. His leg was stuck, yes. An annoyance that's all. No harm done.