The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!

[Guest thanosisawesome]

How? Nothing happened at all to Spidey when he stepped on the plate that was remotely dangerous. His leg was stuck, yes. An annoyance that's all. No harm done.

 

True. I don't know that much about Spider-Man, so I could be wrong.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Stepping on the plate activated a device that is waiting to blow him up. How is that "not remotely dangerous"?

 

By this logic there are any number of ways of fooling the spider-sense. All you have to do is delay the dangerous action. Punisher could sneak up on Spider-man and hold a knife to his throat or a gun to his head because there isn't anything remotely dangerous about having a knife to your throat or a gun to your head, the danger only comes when the holder decides to use it.

 

Spider-man's danger sense has never shown itself to follow this kind of overly legalistic reasoning. It's an instinctual process, not an intellectual one.

[Guest sirmethos]

"I don't think this idea fits at all with the dialogue we see on the page. When DD and Spidey leap away, Logan is staring at the paper repeating the word "suckers." The clear implication is that he's confused and has no idea this is a trap."

 

My "idea" was just one possible theory. "he might have chosen to ignore it".

 

Another possible explanation, is that he doesn't sense any immediate traps(mines, grenades, etc.), that he would probably have suspected Castle would have put on the corpse(something that Castle has done on several occasions in the past). With no immediate trap, the note doesn't make sense(to him).

 

Which would fit with the confusion

 

 

"As for DD and Spiderman not warning him, I don't think that can be deliberate. When someone shoots at your friend (or ally or whatever) the reflexive response is to warn them. There isn't really time to reflect on whether he might survive or not and make an informed decision. Besides, by warning him, they'd be saving him from terrible suffering. "

 

At the time(when DD and Spider-Man jumps away) no-one is shooting at them. They are jumping away as a response to the note, i.e. suspected/anticipated danger, not actual immediate danger. The two of them jumping away, is not a reflexive action, it's an "oh f*ck" reaction to the note.

 

 

"I have to disagree about the spider-sense, though. The fact that he's about to step on a landmine trigger is immediate danger. It's a threat from a non-living trap rather than from a living assailant, but the sense has warned him of threats from non-living agencies before."

 

I said nothing about living or non-living assailants. The landmind trigger is not an immediate danger, i.e. stepping on it does not cause an immediate threat. The threat(and the warning from the spider-sense) would only come once Spider-Man was about to remove his foot from the plate(stepping on it makes it go *click*, not a threat. removing foot makes it go *boom*, a threat).

 

Which is exactly how the Spider-Sense generally works.

 

 

"There are still a lot of assumptions here because of the lack of evidence. I have tried not to misrepresent anything."

 

Basic research(even just looking at CV and the wikia sites which, while not optimal, are good as secondary sources), would give more information, such as Burnout only having had her powers for a short period at the time of the scan, as well as the "speeding train" information.

 

And taking an analogy, and taking it as a literal statement, is misrepresentation.

 

A similar thing, would be taking the(often used) comment from various mooks, that Spider-Man moves "like a greased lightning", then calculating his opponents' feat, based on Spider-Man having the speed of lightning -.-

 

 

 

"That could explain the first webshooter, but when he saw what Punisher was doing why wouldn't he move his other hand?"

 

I don't remember the specific incident, but didn't Punisher shoot both of them, pretty much at the same time? I.e. the second one getting shot off a split second after the first.

 

 

 

"If you come up with one, let me know."

 

I already did.

 

 

"So, stepping on the plate isn't dangerous because it's stepping back off that triggers the explosion? That sounds like a technical nicety one that a lawyer might appreciate but I can't see a danger sense being so legalistic.

 

If Spider-man steps on the plate he will be blown up. The fact that there's an intermediate step doesn't change that. "

 

The Spider-Sense generally warns of danger less than 0.1 seconds in the future. Stepping on the plate is not an immediate danger, hence, no spider-sense warning. That is the way that it has generally worked in the past.

 

 

"By this logic there are any number of ways of fooling the spider-sense. All you have to do is delay the dangerous action. Punisher could sneak up on Spider-man and hold a knife to his throat or a gun to his head because there isn't anything remotely dangerous about having a knife to your throat or a gun to your head, the danger only comes when the holder decides to use it."

 

Exactly, now you seem to be getting it.

 

Yes, a person could go up, and put a gun to Spider-Man's head, and the Spider-Sense would not go off. It would go off as soon as the person starts pulling the trigger though, since at that point, there is an immediate danger(once the trigger is pulled, *boom*)

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

"I don't think this idea fits at all with the dialogue we see on the page. When DD and Spidey leap away, Logan is staring at the paper repeating the word "suckers." The clear implication is that he's confused and has no idea this is a trap."

 

My "idea" was just one possible theory. "he might have chosen to ignore it".

 

Another possible explanation, is that he doesn't sense any immediate traps(mines, grenades, etc.), that he would probably have suspected Castle would have put on the corpse(something that Castle has done on several occasions in the past). With no immediate trap, the note doesn't make sense(to him).

 

Which would fit with the confusion

 

Yes, though it's still not the kind of mistake you'd expect an intelligent and experienced character to make.

 

"As for DD and Spiderman not warning him, I don't think that can be deliberate. When someone shoots at your friend (or ally or whatever) the reflexive response is to warn them. There isn't really time to reflect on whether he might survive or not and make an informed decision. Besides, by warning him, they'd be saving him from terrible suffering. "

 

At the time(when DD and Spider-Man jumps away) no-one is shooting at them. They are jumping away as a response to the note, i.e. suspected/anticipated danger, not actual immediate danger. The two of them jumping away, is not a reflexive action, it's an "oh f*ck" reaction to the note.

 

You're making some assumptions. It could be that they've figured out the note or it could be that Spider-man's sense warned him, or that Daredevil's hypersenses caught the sound or the smell of Punisher's weapon. I'll admit it's possible that they reflexively acted before they had a chance to alert Punisher, but both of them have reacted to save others under similar situations many times.

 

"I have to disagree about the spider-sense, though. The fact that he's about to step on a landmine trigger is immediate danger. It's a threat from a non-living trap rather than from a living assailant, but the sense has warned him of threats from non-living agencies before."

 

I said nothing about living or non-living assailants. The landmind trigger is not an immediate danger, i.e. stepping on it does not cause an immediate threat. The threat(and the warning from the spider-sense) would only come once Spider-Man was about to remove his foot from the plate(stepping on it makes it go *click*, not a threat. removing foot makes it go *boom*, a threat).

 

Which is exactly how the Spider-Sense generally works.

 

I still don't get how you're not counting activating a landmine as an immediate threat.

 

"There are still a lot of assumptions here because of the lack of evidence. I have tried not to misrepresent anything."

 

Basic research(even just looking at CV and the wikia sites which, while not optimal, are good as secondary sources), would give more information, such as Burnout only having had her powers for a short period at the time of the scan, as well as the "speeding train" information.

 

I looked at 2 sources, marvel.com had no information at all, marvelwikia.com listed the character's appearances but said nothing about her powers, I didn't look any further and see now that the Appendex of the Marvel Universe Handbook has a little about her. My bad for not pushing harder.

 

And taking an analogy, and taking it as a literal statement, is misrepresentation.

 

Here's what I said: "I don't know how fast Burnout was, but lat's take Punisher's Mach 2 statement literally.

 

I created a hypothetical situation based on Punisher's statement after clearly stating that I didn't know how fast she really was. I choose the Mach 2 because it was the only number I had found. When you gave me different information I revised the hypothetical to reflect that. If I was unclear, I apologize.

 

 

A similar thing, would be taking the(often used) comment from various mooks, that Spider-Man moves "like a greased lightning", then calculating his opponents' feat, based on Spider-Man having the speed of lightning -.-

 

You forgot the grease

 

"That could explain the first webshooter, but when he saw what Punisher was doing why wouldn't he move his other hand?"

 

I don't remember the specific incident, but didn't Punisher shoot both of them, pretty much at the same time? I.e. the second one getting shot off a split second after the first.

 

He did, though assuming he could get the second shot off before Spider man could react still assumes that Punisher's reflexes are at least comparable to Spider-man's.

 

The writers are caught in kind of a difficult situation with characters like Punisher and Batman. They're non-super characters who have to compete on an equal footing with superhumans. Sometimes the writers do a really good job with this by crafting situations where, by intelligence and skill the normals get the win. More often they get lazy and pull off a scene like the ones we're discussing. It's a shame, because a story where a character pulls off a win over a superhuman without any PIS is a thing of beauty.

 

"If you come up with one, let me know."

 

I already did.

 

Sorry, I'm still not convinced.

 

"So, stepping on the plate isn't dangerous because it's stepping back off that triggers the explosion? That sounds like a technical nicety one that a lawyer might appreciate but I can't see a danger sense being so legalistic.

 

If Spider-man steps on the plate he will be blown up. The fact that there's an intermediate step doesn't change that. "

 

The Spider-Sense generally warns of danger less than 0.1 seconds in the future. Stepping on the plate is not an immediate danger, hence, no spider-sense warning. That is the way that it has generally worked in the past.

 

Where do you get the 0.1 second stat from? If it's correct, then you are right. I'm questioning it because it doesn't fit with what I've seen. There have been many times when Spidey has swung around for minutes or hours with his sense buzzing. There are plenty of scenes where he has long monologues to the effect of "My spidey-sense is going wild, but I've looked all around and I don't see anything."

 

"By this logic there are any number of ways of fooling the spider-sense. All you have to do is delay the dangerous action. Punisher could sneak up on Spider-man and hold a knife to his throat or a gun to his head because there isn't anything remotely dangerous about having a knife to your throat or a gun to your head, the danger only comes when the holder decides to use it."

 

Exactly, now you seem to be getting it.

 

Yes, a person could go up, and put a gun to Spider-Man's head, and the Spider-Sense would not go off. It would go off as soon as the person starts pulling the trigger though, since at that point, there is an immediate danger(once the trigger is pulled, *boom*)

 

Honestly, I don't see how that doesn't count as immediate danger. And it doesn't fit well with the way I remember the sense operating.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

You know, I've seen the spider-sense go off just because Parker was being followed by a random thug, so I don't know if the "it only reacts to immediate danger" statement is entirely correct.

[C.T.]

It's possible that Punisher was just bluffing(something he is known for doing) and Spidey was never in any real danger at all(thus why the spider sense doesn't go off).He's just trying to let the panic and such from a percieved threat keep Spidey from thinking clearly. For example, webbing the explosives away or something. Punisher is taking a gamble that Parker wouldn't be thinking clearly and that incapcitates him temporarily. Castle using psychology instead of physicality.

 

But that's just speculation/theorizing.

 

This could be another reason why the spider sense did not go off. As for the scenario presented here, there was little to no PIS. The only thing I find real silly is Wolverine calling for help. I can see everything else being plausible. Spider Man rarely sticks with team ups, he could not see inside the room because it was pitch black, he went in, his foot fell onto the pressure pad and Punisher turned on the light and explained or bluffed. Either way is conceivable. The spider sense did not go off because the act of stepping on it does not provoke immediate danger on its part(yet) or it didn't go off because Parker was never in any real danger. Plausible.

 

Right, cause you know that things are never inconsistent in comics when it comes to Spider-Man right guys? One day he lifts 10 tons, the next he's throwing tanks. Very consistent.

 

Is it conceivable that Punisher can tackle Daredevil through a window? Yes it is. Now I don't think Castle actually formed his strategy like this:know which window he comes in, tackle him out, know which arm he will use to break his fall. That wasn't strategy IMO. That was tactics. He came up with it on the fly.

 

You guys watch the Sherlock Holmes Guy Ritchie movies with Downey Jr? Kinda like that.

 

"Daredevil comes in window. Catch by surprise. Flying tackle out the window. Immobilize nearest arm. Dislocate both shoulders. Land on platform. Keep off balance. Drop on head. In short, both shoulders dislocated, limbs bruised, head concussed, physical effects significant. Ability to fight at peak level...neutralized."

 

That could have been what he was thinking the whole time. Not strategy, but tactics. I like to imagine it was exactly what went on, because those Sherlock films were awesome IMO.

[treacherous]

Waitaminute? Batman has access to a Brazilian Batcave? Then there is absolutely no way he is not there without a trademarked Bat Vehicle. My guess is he comes riding up in Batmobile, boat, plane, armored bike of some sort and lays down some heavy artillery on Punisher.

[xLEGACYx]

Worst come to worse, he has his new suit built into the batmobile

 

IronBat

 

This is built into his new Batmobile. Everyone seemed to ignore this post earlier by Hayes

[Guest bigballerju]

Different writers have different opinions on Spiderman's spider sense. That's the best explanation and as a fan of Spiderman I learned that over the years. Some writers have it Spiderman's spider sense warns him of any danger around him and even lets it alert Spiderman as to where it's coming from. Others have the spider sense warn him of any immediate danger like Methos said. Marvel's writers are inconsistent when it comes to abilities of characters.

 

Batman is in Brazil not Gotham and he won't have that main batmobile he uses in Gotham with him. His Brazil batcave won't have the same equipment and gear his batmobile in Gotham has.

[xLEGACYx]

.

 

Batman is in Brazil not Gotham and he won't have that main batmobile he uses in Gotham with him. His Brazil batcave won't have the same equipment and gear his batmobile in Gotham has.

He would still have a Batmobile and seeing as this upgrade was built into the car, I cant see why it wouldn't be in them all in the New 52. We have seen a couple of armors Batman has used in the New 52. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have at least one in this cave.

[Guest bigballerju]

No it wouldn't be in all of them and Batman has shown he doesn't make the same modifications to all his batmobiles which is why when one gets destroyed he has to build another one. No it's not hard to believe with the way his batmobiles get constantly destroyed and he builds new ones.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Different writers have different opinions on Spiderman's spider sense. That's the best explanation and as a fan of Spiderman I learned that over the years. Some writers have it Spiderman's spider sense warns him of any danger around him and even lets it alert Spiderman as to where it's coming from. Others have the spider sense warn him of any immediate danger like Methos said. Marvel's writers are inconsistent when it comes to abilities of characters.

 

Batman is in Brazil not Gotham and he won't have that main batmobile he uses in Gotham with him. His Brazil batcave won't have the same equipment and gear his batmobile in Gotham has.

He has one week to prepare. Why can't he call the batwing from Gotham for a care package?

[C.T.]

Special equipment flown in from care packages?

 

So Punisher has access to Pym Particles(and Ant-Man's helmet), a replica of Captain America's shield, pumpkin bombs, Iron Man gauntlets, Hawkeye trick arrows, Satan claw, a hoverboard, a bunch of guns in all shapes and sizes(mix of human regular and alien laser guns) and lots more...

 

[xLEGACYx]

No it wouldn't be in all of them and Batman has shown he doesn't make the same modifications to all his batmobiles which is why when one gets destroyed he has to build another one. No it's not hard to believe with the way his batmobiles get constantly destroyed and he builds new ones.

what about the armor from the court of owls saga. He has more than one suit of armor. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have something similar in all his HQs

[Guest force_echo]

Waitaminute? Batman has access to a Brazilian Batcave? Then there is absolutely no way he is not there without a trademarked Bat Vehicle. My guess is he comes riding up in Batmobile, boat, plane, armored bike of some sort and lays down some heavy artillery on Punisher.

Yeah, a huge target for Punisher to hit with an RPG, that'll go over well for Batman. He's basically losing his only advantage- stealth

[Guest force_echo]

"*Sigh* As I already stated, the point is not that he will be doing so, just that if he is that fast, he can therefore dodge bullets. I posted multiple scans of him doing so, so instead of complaining, try actually countering. Also, they start 100 ft away, not with Frank 2 miles away with a barret. Also, Batman's armor had tanked multiple shells as well, and seeing as he has prep, he will be wearing heavier armor than usual."

 

You never posted a single scan of Batman dodging a bullet. Show me a scan where a bullet is fired, THEN (key word being then, meaning AFTER) the bullet is fired (and the bullet has to be clearly on target to Batman) Batman dodges it. Also, if he tries using his gauntlets to deflect it, his arms would be broken. Batman's armor canonically, is Kevlar-titanium, not able to stop a .38 or higher, especially multiple rounds from an assault rifle. His armor has been punctured by worse, as I've pointed out. Even a 9mm knocked him on his ass and winded him in Batman: Gotham Knights. If he wears heavier armor, he won't be agile enough to "dodge bullets", and his stealth will be compromised. There's a reason why he usually wears lighter armor. It's a tradeoff.

 

What are you babbling about? Smoke pellets, flashbang, stealth. If he gets anywhere close he can KO Frank with a batarang to small and fast to be dodged.

 

Are you retarded? Or have you literally never read a Punisher comic before? Smoke pellets? Infrared, and he has smoke pellets too. Flashbangs? He has flashbangs too you idiot. He also has blast visors and audio blocks. Do you seriously think a dude who regularly goes up against the police doesn't know what to do against flashbangs? Stealth. Yep, that one word will definitely win Batman the whole match. It's not that simple. Batman is going to be up against a lot of traps he doesn't know exist, and Punisher has stealth himself, not to mention equipment to negate Batman's stealth. And I'm sorry, the fact that you think a guy who regularly gets punched and shot by superhuman threats will be one-shot KOd by a f*cking Batarang is not even worth discussing. Batman doesn't even use the batarang to one shot regular criminals.

 

Stop fan wanking. I have already proven that Batman can dodge bullets, so this is not instant victory. Batman beats Deadshot, a far superior gunman than Frank.

 

Fan wanking? That's so ironic it's hilarious. Says the person who's telling me Batman can dodge rifle rounds. Even if he had the reflex speed (he doesn't), how is he going to know to dodge it? He can't hear it, he can't see it, so how would he dodge a rifle round? Also a couple of things wrong with the second claim.

 

A) Deadshot isn't a superior gunman, and he definitely isn't as smart as The Punisher is.

 

Deadshot pulls his shots for Batman. Castle won't.

 

C) Deadshot's actually beaten Batman in straight combat more times than Batman's beaten Deadshot. Most of time when Batman "beats" Deadshot, he freezes his employer's bank account or publicly exposes him or something. Deadshot's beaten Batman twice, and had him dead to rights more times than that, but he doesn't want to kill Batman.

[Guest force_echo]

I know this is Batman vs Punisher, but to fact check, last I checked Wolverine had a 5 agility on the Marvel and Daredevil had a 4. That might've changed, but yeah... Wolverine has much better agility.

Lol, because Marvel's power grid is the best indicator of ability. Daredevil is probably the best human acrobat in the Marvel Universe, Wolverine's skeleton is made out of a goddamn heavy metal, there's a reason he's not known for agility at all.

[Guest force_echo]

the danger only comes when the holder decides to use it.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. His Spider Sense doesn't go off when a gun is pointed at him, his Spider Sense goes off right before the bullet's fired.

 

Another possibility, there might be the fact that Spider-Man just ignored it. It's hard for him to discern between danger he already knows (Hey, you're about to step into a building where a maniac with a gun is waiting to kill you) and danger he doesn't know ("There's explosives wired up to the floor so don't step on it"). Even if his Spider-Sense went off then, he would probably just think it's because the Punisher, there's no reason to belive specifically "don't step on the floor because there's a pressure plate there rigged to explosives".

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Special equipment flown in from care packages?

 

So Punisher has access to Pym Particles(and Ant-Man's helmet), a replica of Captain America's shield, pumpkin bombs, Iron Man gauntlets, Hawkeye trick arrows, Satan claw, a hoverboard, a bunch of guns in all shapes and sizes(mix of human regular and alien laser guns) and lots more...

 

 

Why so serious? OP did not say otherwise.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

"*Sigh* As I already stated, the point is not that he will be doing so, just that if he is that fast, he can therefore dodge bullets. I posted multiple scans of him doing so, so instead of complaining, try actually countering. Also, they start 100 ft away, not with Frank 2 miles away with a barret. Also, Batman's armor had tanked multiple shells as well, and seeing as he has prep, he will be wearing heavier armor than usual."

 

You never posted a single scan of Batman dodging a bullet. Show me a scan where a bullet is fired, THEN (key word being then, meaning AFTER) the bullet is fired (and the bullet has to be clearly on target to Batman) Batman dodges it. Also, if he tries using his gauntlets to deflect it, his arms would be broken. Batman's armor canonically, is Kevlar-titanium, not able to stop a .38 or higher, especially multiple rounds from an assault rifle. His armor has been punctured by worse, as I've pointed out. Even a 9mm knocked him on his ass and winded him in Batman: Gotham Knights. If he wears heavier armor, he won't be agile enough to "dodge bullets", and his stealth will be compromised. There's a reason why he usually wears lighter armor. It's a tradeoff.

 

Are you reading what I'm goddamn typing? If he is fast enough to block multiple sub machine bullets, he is fast enough to dodge. The scan where he dodges a point blank bullet. The scan where he blocks one with his fist. These simply demonstrate speed and reflexes to dodge bullets.

 

What are you babbling about? Smoke pellets, flashbang, stealth. If he gets anywhere close he can KO Frank with a batarang to small and fast to be dodged.

 

Are you retarded? Or have you literally never read a Punisher comic before? Smoke pellets? Infrared, and he has smoke pellets too. Flashbangs? He has flashbangs too you idiot. He also has blast visors and audio blocks. Do you seriously think a dude who regularly goes up against the police doesn't know what to do against flashbangs? Stealth. Yep, that one word will definitely win Batman the whole match. It's not that simple. Batman is going to be up against a lot of traps he doesn't know exist, and Punisher has stealth himself, not to mention equipment to negate Batman's stealth. And I'm sorry, the fact that you think a guy who regularly gets punched and shot by superhuman threats will be one-shot KOd by a f*cking Batarang is not even worth discussing. Batman doesn't even use the batarang to one shot regular criminals.

 

Are you retarded? Batmans armor would be shielded against infrared, and Punisher's isn't. So, I hope he drops a flashbang. Hey idiot, Batman has prep too. What makes you think he won't set up traps? Are they both gonna be setting up traps and the favelas at the same time, see each other, and say let's fight in a week?

 

Stop fan wanking. I have already proven that Batman can dodge bullets, so this is not instant victory. Batman beats Deadshot, a far superior gunman than Frank.

 

Fan wanking? That's so ironic it's hilarious. Says the person who's telling me Batman can dodge rifle rounds. Even if he had the reflex speed (he doesn't), how is he going to know to dodge it? He can't hear it, he can't see it, so how would he dodge a rifle round? Also a couple of things wrong with the second claim.

 

A) Deadshot isn't a superior gunman, and he definitely isn't as smart as The Punisher is.

 

Deadshot pulls his shots for Batman. Castle won't.

 

C) Deadshot's actually beaten Batman in straight combat more times than Batman's beaten Deadshot. Most of time when Batman "beats" Deadshot, he freezes his employer's bank account or publicly exposes him or something. Deadshot's beaten Batman twice, and had him dead to rights more times than that, but he doesn't want to kill Batman

 

The difference between my fan-wanking and yours is that I have posted proof and evidence to back up my "fanboy claims" while you freeze up and use mindless speculation.

[C.T.]

Why so serious? OP did not say otherwise.

 

Just saying. If Batman brings in that, Castle could bring in those too. Pym Particle, shrink, go into Batman, expand.

[treacherous]

Because Nova, it's a lot more feasible that Batman has a vehicle in his Brazilian location than it is that Punisher figured he'd need Pym Particles to take down a drug cartel.

 

I see the flame portion of the argument has begun. Oh and look who started it...Go figure.

[C.T.]

True, he wouldn't need Pym Particles to take down a drug cartel. But he's not preparing for a week to fight a drug cartel, he's preparing to fight Batman who apparently gets Iron Man lite armor, so Punisher is pulling all the stops himself. Hehe.

[treacherous]

Hey I didn't pull out the Iron Man lite armor.

 

But, It also makes sense that the billionaire who has a contingency for everything (Even his own Justice League) is fully aware of the cartel issue in Brazil and has a fully loaded contingency for said Brazilian cartels in that Batcave, moreso than the unemployed Frank Castle. In other words, Punisher may be able to get his hands on some high caliber weaponry, but will it really compare to the things a Billionaire can get and the efficiency at which he can get it? I see Punisher pulling out a big gun and suddenly a huge bat tank comes careening down the highway. Billionaire >>>> Unemployed.

[C.T.]

Wait wait wait, so Punisher doesn't need Pym Particles to take down a drug cartel in Brazil but Batman needs a bat tank?

 

Furthermore, it is not as easy as Wayne's methods of procurement but Castle has stolen stuff from the smart billionaire playboy types before.