Marvel vs Saiyans

[Guest Oltobaz]

I already backed up my claims, this is getting tiresome. In a vs thread such as this one, you're bound to find people with different opinions, you know? Tien isn't human, it might take you some research, so just google Tien along with Daizenshu, the info is available.

If you still think he's human after that, no point carrying this on any further.

As for this Yamcha trivia, it's interesting, you gave me some incentive to watch the movie again, but, in actual continuity, Krillin is more powerful, by Yamcha's own admission. Besides, Yamcha is almost always portrayed as a loser, not Krillin whose power level was higher if we're to believe Vegeta and Nappa scouter when they came to Earth.

[C.T.]

Krillin and Yamcha vs Tambourine resulted in Krillin dying in 1 hit to the head. Yamcha is able to fight well against Tambourine with a broken leg. Point Yamcha 1.

 

Yamcha vs Tien. Yamcha is able to fight even with Tien forcing the latter to get serious in order to land the fight, Krillin uses math problems and cheap tactics to beat Chiazou. Point Yamcha 1.

 

Krillin and Yamcha vs Saiberman. Yamcha fights saiberman not going all out (due to cockiness) and gets killed because of it, Krillin enraged and using all his enemy kills 3 saiberman. Point Krillin 1; not really as Yamcha never used his full power and Kamikaze attack would have done any of them in.

 

Krillin and Yamcha vs Recoome. Krillin is one shotted by Recoome with his potential unlocked, while Yamcha is able to beat Recoome almost effortless.1 Point Yamcha.

 

Krillin and Yamcha vs Cell Jr. Krillin gets his butt handed to him by Cell Jr, unable to land a hit, while Yamcha and Tien are able to tag team get it off of Goku and land a blow. No point for anyone as Yamcha had help.

 

Let's add up shall we?

 

3-Yamcha

 

1- Krillin

[Guest God-Speed_88]

Och call it blind fanboyism, but I reckon SSj3 Goku is still in Supe's and Thor's league.

[Guest Oltobaz]

LOL

 

1/ Yamcha's first fight was against a weakened Kid Goku. He did well initially, then Goku defeated him

2/ In the first Tenkaichi Budokai, he's easily defeated by Master Roshi who patronize him a little bit.

3/ He was losing against Suké the Invisible Man, and only won thanks to... Krillin's tactics. That's right, he needed help from Krillin.

4/ He loses against the Mummy.

5/ He loses against Tien in the second Tournament. He does his best, probably his best fight, even though he lost.

6/ He loses against Kamisama, who patronize him all along.

7/ Despite all his past defeats, he's still pretty cocky, and while superior to his Saibaman opponent, is wound up in the sacrifice explosion due to his own stupidity.

8/ He wins against Recoome in an anime filler, thanks to Master KaÃo's training. Tien and Chaozu perform just as well.

9/ Not only is he defeated, he's humiliated by Android 20 (against which Krillin will perform much better).

10 He's humiliated by the Little Juniors (granted, he's not the only one).

11/ He acknowledges himself Krillin is superior (the best human warrior) during the Tenkaichi tournament at the beginnings of the Buu saga. In fact, he doesn't even want to participate, he's not so cocky anymore, thanks to a lifetime of failure, lol.

 

Let's give two points, shall we? He didn't do so bad agaisnt Goku, and kinda won against Suké, thanks to you know who. And he did defeat Recoome.

 

As for Krillin:

 

1/ He trains with Goku right from the start.

2/ He wins against his stinky opponent in the first Tenkaichi (Don't know how you guys call him in the US).

3/ He loses against Master Roshi, but does a better job than Yamcha.

4/ He wins against the Vampire.

4/ He wins against Chaozu in the second Tenkaichi. Not a great fight, you pointed out his cheap tactics. You're right, but Chaozu wasn't above cheap tactics himself, and you fight fire with fire. Anyways... He wins!

5/ He loses against Goku, and puts up a great fight. Just as great as Yamcha's against Tien.

6/ He's killed by Tambourine. As for Yamcha, he's impaired, and not much help during the Piccolo saga.

7/ In the third Tenkaichi, he puts up a very good fight against Piccolo Junior. While Yamcha doesn't really accomplish much against Piccolo counterpart, the less powerful Kamisama, Krillin fights very well, but eventually gives up, Piccolo being too powerful. He's smart enough to know his limits.

7/ He kills three Saibamen all at once out of rage after Yamcha stupid death.

8/ He survives the Saiyan fights, his power level is shown higher than Yamcha's, on the Saiyan's scouters, he comes up with amazing new techniques (his signature blast against the Saibaimen, and the Kienzan, a technique with enough potential to kill Nappa). He shows his value countless times over, Goku requires his help for the Spirit Boomb, etc... He's invaluable. As for Yamcha... he died a meaningless death, and failed as a warrior.

8/ He's defeated by Ghourd's dirty tactics, along with Gohan, though superior in sheer power. He can't do much of anything against Recoome, his being at a lower power level at the time.

9/ Still, on Namek, along with Gohan, he does fight and defeat some of Frieza's henchmen. His versatility and resources will be a great help during the whole ark, though he'll eventually be killed again, by Frieza.

10/ He has a skirmish against Cyborg 20, and performs much better than Yamcha (which wasn't difficult).

11/ He befriends and eventually SEDUCES Cyborg 18. He's a man's man, as opposed to Yamcha, who can't even keep his own woman.

12/ He briefly attempts to fight against Perfect Cell, though aware of the odds. Courage, determination... he keps on earning way more respect than Yamcha ever did

13/ He's defeated by the Little Cells, along with his friends. He doesn't seek Tien's help, lol.

14/ He participated in the Tenkaichi during the Buu saga, as opposed to puny Yamcha. He humiliates Punter, his opponent. Yamcha openly acknowledges his superiority as the best human warrior.

 

Gee, how many points did Krilin earn? Let's ask Yamcha...

 

Oh, and, goodnight!

[C.T.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPuOpJBnFbM

 

[Guest force_echo]

I can't believe Buu vs. Dr. Strange was even seriously debated. Dr. Strange, if he wanted, could literally annihilate Buu from reality.

[Guest MarvelFan15]

Och call it blind fanboyism, but I reckon SSj3 Goku is still in Supe's and Thor's league.

 

Good thing we have Doc Strange on our side, then.

[Guest God-Speed_88]

Good thing we have Doc Strange on our side, then.

 

Haha I know Strange would destroy this roaster.

[Guest sirmethos]

-snip-

 

"1/ DBZ movies may be set in the DB universe, but, for the most part, they're not in the same continuity. The three Broly movies aren't part of said continuity."

 

The three Broly movies are all part of the same continuity as all the other movies. Whether that's the same continuity as the anime series, is a different discussion all together(most people say they're not though).

 

And neither the movies, nor the anime series, is the same continuity as the manga.

 

 

"2/ I know some Marvel chars could take out Broly before he destroys the planet. I just don't see any in this set up."

 

Sentry, Thor, Iron Man(in Extremis armor), Dr. Strange. All of those are capable of taking Broly out before he can destroy the planet.

 

 

"As for absorbing an earth shattering blast, Sentry might be up to the task, Thor could redirect it to another dimension, etc... except they don't know who they're up against, hence I doubt they can react fast enough, considering Broly is just as fast as they are."

 

Both Thor and Sentry could just absorb the blast directly. And both of them are several times faster than Broly(both of them are several times the speed of light).

 

 

"3/ As far as Dbzer's beeing faster than sound but slower than light, thank you for sharing your own subjective opinion."

 

Nothing subjective about it. Gotenks circling the planet is the single best feat of speed, in the entire Dragonball universe. And that feat is not light speed.

 

But if you can actually prove that they are faster than light, then I am, as always, willing to be convinced.

 

As for being faster than sound, there are several showings that puts them pretty difinitively above the speed of sound.

 

 

"4/ No matter what armor he's wearing, Iron Man isn't in the same league as the likes of Sentry and Thor (though he did beat Sentry once by hacking into Cloc),"

 

When have I, at any point, said that he is in the same league as Sentry and Thor?

 

What I have said, is 1. That Tony(in the Extremis armor) is just as fast, if not faster, as any of the Saiyans. Which, given the feats of speed, from the various Saiyans, and Tony in the Extremis armor, respectively, is simply a fact.

 

 

"he's not even a factor."

 

And again, go read some Iron Man from the last 7 years. Even his Silver Centurion armor was capable of absorbing and redirecting energy. Which effectively makes anything that the DBZ characters can throw at him, completely useless.

 

And that's just one of his defensive capabilities. We haven't even gotten into his offensive capabilities.

 

 

"I'm a major Tony fan, he's smart, but he doesn't stand a chance."

 

For a "major Tony fan" you have disturbingly little actual knowledge about him, and his capabilities.

 

You should try talking to Force_Echo. He's actually a "major Tony fan".

 

 

"For someone who's lived as long as you have, Methos, you assume too much. I know my comics. And I think you're overestimating Stark."

 

I haven't made any assumptions so far. I have drawn conclusions based on the available information. In this case, the information(your statements) says that you know next to nothing about Iron Man's capabilities.

 

 

 

"At this point in the series, these guys are just as capable as Kal el speedwise, and that's what this scene is all about."

 

1. thanks for the laugh. I haven't laughed that hard in quite a while.

 

2. I don't suppose you have any actual proof, to back up your ridiculous claims?

 

 

 

"Besides, Sentry, Thor and Nova power levels have shown many inconcistencies over the years, depending on which writer was using them. You'd think Sentry could have destroyed WWHulk with ease thanks to his superior speed, you'd also think he wouldn't have needed help to carry the Shield helicarrier. I know the answer to that, PIS, right?"

 

Well, the WWH incident is PIS, yes. PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. And there are several cases of blatant stupidity in the WWH storyline. Sentry and Dr. Strange being the most blatant examples.

 

As for the Helicarrier incident. I'll refer you to this http://www.electricf...showtopic=13111

 

 

"Not very satisfying though. Dbze'rs aren't affected by these issues, they're consistently powerful"

 

Except for, you know, inconsistencies in speed, strength, cases of PIS(Piccolo being the most affected), durability, etc.

 

 

"6/ Broly is infinitely more powerful than Kame Sennin. I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about."

 

No, Broly is not "infinitely more powerful than Kame Sennin".

 

Kame Sennin has a power level of 139. Broly has a power level of 1,400,000,000. That makes Broly 10,071,942 times more powerful than Kame Sennin. In order to be "infinitely more powerful" he would need to have infinite power. Which no one in DBZ has.

 

 

 

"Have you read the manga, watched the series?"

 

Yes, I own the entire manga, and have read(and re-read) it several times. And yes, I have watched the entire series, and all of the movies, and played several of the games.

 

 

"Pointer, Kame Sennin destroys the Moon early on in the series while at level 120, approximately. He does that with ease, instantly. That's actually a speed feat, his energy blast connected with the Moon instantly."

 

1. No it's not a "speed feat". At best, it would be a feat which demonstrates the speed of the Kamehameha, not the actual characters.

 

2. No, his energy blast did not "connect with the moon instantly". We never actually see his Kamehameha connect with the moon in that episode, we just see him firing it, and then we get a view of the random destruction, and the other characters crying about Goku. We never even see the moon again in that episode, after he fires the Kamehameha.

 

 

 

"What does that tell you about, cough, the likes of Broly?"

 

It doesn't really tell me much. The only way it could tell me a lot about characters like Broly, would be via Power Scaling, which is useless. Though Dragonball fanboys like to use it to defend a lot of their ridiculous claims.

 

 

"7/ I agree with you, no limit to their potential, and I also agree about the limit thing they have at any given time, except Saiyans push these limits further fights after fights, wounds after wounds (provided they recover),"

 

Yes, and that is exactly what I said about Goku, he breaks and surpasses his limits. But that doesn't change the fact, that at any given time, they have definite limits, and finite power.

 

 

"and things are even better from Broly, as it is said his power grows constantly, all by itself. "

 

Wrong, again. Broly's power "growing constantly" is a misrepresentation of the facts, that Brolytards like to use, when they're trying to make Broly seem more powerful than he actually is.

 

Just like all of the others, Broly has definite, finite, limits.

 

 

"In DBZ lore, an increase in power means an increase in strength, energy, and, you guessed it, speed. Let's assume he wasn't yet FTL when he first appeared, he would have been by the Buu story ark, "

 

No, he really wouldn't. Since he does not have a constant increase in power. Even if Dragonball fanboys and Brolytards like to make it seem like he does.

 

 

"if we're to look at how fast Gotrunks showed us he was back then. As fast as Supes, that's what the scene was all about."

 

1. Gotenks circling the planet, is not even close to the same speed as Superman.

 

2. Again, do you have any actual proof, of your increasingly ridiculous claims? Or are you just, as I highly suspect, pulling things out of your arse.

 

 

"Anyways, in case of Broly, there's no limit to his power at any given time, it's always increasing! Seriously, have you seen the movies?"

 

Wrong, once again. You're on a roll.

 

No, Broly's power is not "always increasing", and yes, he does have limits.

 

And yes, as I've already say, I've seen all of the movies. Several times.

 

 

"8/ In regards to your last ideas, I agree, some could be effective, right after the planet is destroyed, they'll come out with something.

 

Considering that they are so much faster, that he might as well be standing still, they are more than capable of preventing him from destroying the planet. Especially considering that creating a Force Field, only requires a single thought.

 

 

"I can already tell you however, these force fields won't be effective against Broly."

 

Wrong, yet again. Broly doesn't have nearly enough raw power to break through the Force Fields.

 

 

"Marvel Force fields can't usually handle the Hulk, they won't stop Broly."

 

Well, considering that Hulk's raw power is quite a bit above that of Broly's, and the fact that unlike Broly, Hulk's power does almost constantly increase, as he gets more and more angry. Not being able to handle Hulk =/= not being able to handle Broly.

 

 

"Raw blasts of energy, that's Broly thing, won't work (at least not from the players at hand). "

 

It might be Broly's "thing", but both Thor and Sentry are capable of raw energy blasts, that are far more powerful than anything Broly can produce. Yes, some of their more powerful blasts would most definitely work. Unless Broly has turned into an Energy Absorber, or Energy Manipulator, while I wasn't looking.

 

 

"I hate to be like that, but three eyed dudes aren't humans. They're aliens. Not too many people know this I guess, but Tien isn't human, his ancestors were alien, which explains some of his more unique techniques, like growing arms out of his back."

 

Yes, Tenshinhan is human. And no, he is not like Piccolo and Goku.

 

Piccolo and Goku were both born on their respective home planets, and later arrived on earth(though the younger Piccolo was born from King Piccolo, on Earth). Tenshinhan was born and raised on Earth.

 

Tenshinhan is a descendant of the "Three-Eyed Clan", but there is absolutely nothing that definitively says that they are not humans.

[Guest Oltobaz]

In no particular order:

 

1/The Daizenshu specifies the Three Eyed clan is an Alien race.

2/ Broly is way above Hulk in terms of raw power.

3/ Iron Man's armors have well defined limits, there's no way he could redirect, much less absorb an Earth Shattering blast. He can't fight these guys, he's seriously outmatched, if you can't even see that, what's the point of carrying this on, I wonder?

4/ Sentry, Thor and Nova are plagued with inconsistencies, set as they are in an universe in which Spider Man can pummel Firelord. Sentry can't defeat WWH on his own, while Hulk is supposed to be wayy slower. Hell, Sentry can't even catch Frank Castle. During the Dark Age, Namor was also able to put up a fight with him. If we're to look at his "non feats", Sentry is much slower than the DBZers.

5/And calculations, speculation are quite meaningless, there's no actual data available one could exploit to calculate just how fast DBZer's really are. Still, there are energy blasts who connect almost instantly with their targets, a character able to circle around the Earth a la Superman (said character being less powerful than other characters like "Kaioshin Gohan", who are even faster). There are consistently through the anime and the manga super fast fights the regular audience can't even follow, due to how fast the chars are fighting. There's evidence leading me to believe they'd handle themselves well against someone who can't even catch Frank Castle 'chuckles'.

6/ Since it's said and established Broly's power level is limitless, that's a fact. Your condescending tone is quite amusing, you're in denial though, and that's an ugly thing, lol. It's always growing, that's what separates him from the other Saiyans.

7/ In regards to DB continuity, I certainly agree with you. It all goes downhill after that...

[corvette1710]

Tien wasn't born with the third eye, like Nova said, it was achieved through intense meditation.

 

No, he really isn't.

 

Actually, he can. The Extremis armor tanked a nuke at 2% power. Multiply that (and I hope I'm getting my math right here) by 5000% (.02*50) to get the full charge's ability to take a beating, and then apply it to redirecting (not outright stopping it, but moving it a different direction, perhaps back at Broly).

 

That's a bit of a hypocritical statement coming from the guy arguing for DBZ.

 

Actually, there are, and you're not using any of them.

 

It's not limitless. Broly can only endure so much at one time without losing physical stability. If you know this (in your self-proclaimed all-knowledge of the DBZ-verse), then why the hell would you argue he has infinite/unlimited power?

[Guest Oltobaz]

I'm getting tired of this. Broly's power is always increasing, it doesn't make him invincible. However, if you truly think Iron Man's weaponry can hurt him, if you think Hulk is above him, well then, I'm losing my time. It's like we don't even speak the same language. Either tthat or you're hypocritical. I'm out. I'm done correcting the error of your ways...

[corvette1710]

If you actually knew anything worth use on the subject (which I doubt), you'd know that they both can fairly easily beat Broly to a pulp (or disintegrate him, or whatever).

 

They're both more powerful than Broly.

[Guest God-Speed_88]

If you actually knew anything worth use on the subject (which I doubt), you'd know that they both can fairly easily beat Broly to a pulp (or disintegrate him, or whatever).

 

They're both more powerful than Broly.

 

I'm sorry, but Iron Man and the Hulk could not beat Broly fairly easily.

 

[Guest God-Speed_88]

 

Galaxy > 2% Nuke Blast feat

[Guest God-Speed_88]

Also, Akira himself has said Tien is human, he just isn't conventional looking which is fitting considering ya'know humans can fire ki blasts and animals can talk. It's exactly a 'normal' universe.

 

As for the strongest humans alive Uub>Tien>Krillin>Yamcha, Krillin trained under Roshi more vigorously and continued to do so after Yamcha slowed down. Plus, Yamcha did openly admit Krillin to be stronger.

[Guest Oltobaz]

To Corvette: Facepalm. No, they're not. They have no way to win this. They wouldn't survive a planet buster blast, which is way too much for Iron Man to absorb or redirect, whatever armor he's wearing. And, I'd like to stress he didn't have any prep. As for Hulk, let's assume he could survive this, which I doubt. He'd then adapt to space and breathe, in a severely weakened state. He wouldn't be able then to do anything against Broly's martial might.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Godspeed: While there's some controversy, Tien isn't human, if we're to believe the Daizenshu, the closest thing to the bible for any DBZ fan. The series and manga never really addressed the issue, and I used to think Tien was human myself, until I read this book. He's not human, as you'll notice he's capable of things humans are incapable of, like cloning himself (for lack of a better word), growing out arms out of his back, having a friggin' third eye on his forehead etc... These things aren't techniques so much as they're natural powers, like Namekkians regenerative abilities, which explains why Goku never picked these up. Then again, he was born on Earth, hence might have some Human blood. Let's just say he's not fully human, or not at all.

[C.T.]

They wouldn't survive a planet buster blast, which is way too much for Iron Man to absorb or redirect, whatever armor he's wearing.

 

Very much incorrect. You're the one who has to correct the errors of their ways.

[C.T.]

He's not human, as you'll notice he's capable of things humans are incapable of, like cloning himself (for lack of a better word), growing out arms out of his back, having a friggin' third eye on his forehead etc...

 

Krillin also cloned himself, the eye is from meditation...

[Guest Oltobaz]

You're wrong on all accounts. This is sterile.

[C.T.]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, as I thought. Another fanboy with no clue. Figures.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Don't be aggressive like that... I could label you a clueless fanboy as well, then the escalation would go on... it's not worth it.

You think Yamcha is stronger than Krillin, I proved you wrong. Of course, you're in denial.

You don't want to admit Tien isn't human, despite the Daizushu, fine by me... but you're wrong, again.

You overestimate greatly Iron Man and Hulk. Iron Man, in particular, is wayy out of his league. Still, let's not get there again. It bores me.

You think people like Nova, Thor and Sentry can outspeed the DBZers. I do not think so. You claim Dbzer's not being FTL has been proven mathematically (as if...), guess what, other calculations (easily found on the internet) show otherwise. It just depends on who you're asking. It really IS anyone's guess. I certainly think they're FTL, you don't think so: it's all relative. I know, it doesn't fly your boat, you're just gonna have to accept some people will always disagree with you though. It's no big deal.

[C.T.]

You're one to talk about overestimation. Really, you have no proof for being FTL, one of the best speed feats(Gotenks) in DBZ was not even close to FTL. No other mathematical calculation could prove that it was FTL...well maybe if their math was as bad as mine.

 

Yamcha was shown to be equally matched with Tien, Krillin beat by Yajirobe. Hehe.

 

Actually no. Tien achieved his eye through meditation...but okay, let's pretend that you're right. Do you have any evidence that The Three Eyed Clan did not originate on Earth?

 

No it's not relative, you have not provided any evidence, all speculation(for the FTL thing in particular) You want to continue that, fine by me. But that's less than nothing in a debate. You're right though, not a big deal. Fanboyism never is.

[xLEGACYx]

You're one to talk about overestimation. Really, you have no proof for being FTL, one of the best speed feats(Gotenks) in DBZ was not even close to FTL. No other mathematical calculation could prove that it was FTL...well maybe if their math was as bad as mine.

 

Yamcha was shown to be equally matched with Tien, Krillin beat by Yajirobe. Hehe.

 

Actually no. Tien achieved his eye through meditation...but okay, let's pretend that you're right. Do you have any evidence that The Three Eyed Clan did not originate on Earth?

 

No it's not relative, you have not provided any evidence, all speculation(for the FTL thing in particular) You want to continue that, fine by me. But that's less than nothing in a debate. You're right though, not a big deal. Fanboyism never is.

and the winner is ^^^