Rumble 13712 Zeus vs. Darkseid

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I'm willing to accept that Darksied could win... if someone is willing to offer some actual evidence.

[Guest sirmethos]

You just have to look at the powers listed for Zeus in the OP, then at the stated capabilities for Darkseid(i.e. darkseid's list of powers), and their respective experience.

[Bergy_Berg]

Darkseid does not have an experience advantage on Zues. The guy's been around the block a couple of times.

[Guest sirmethos]

Darkseid does not have an experience advantage on Zues. The guy's been around the block a couple of times.

Oh really?

 

While they are probably of comparable age(and thus, neither of them have had more time to accumulate experience than the other), how many opponents of a comparable power/skill level(comparable to himself) has Zeus been up against, and defeated?

 

Yes, Darkseid most definitely has an experience advantage on Zeus.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

What you say is obvious is less than obvious to me. Here are Darksied's powers from DC.com

 

Superhuman Strength: Darkseid is an extremely powerful alien hailing from planet Apokolips, who possesses colossal super-strength. Darkseid's full strength potential varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, Darkseid can easily overpower and kill humans and most galactic beings, he can bend and break through virtually any man-made material, and can lift extremely heavy objects, decimate full-sized buildings and other structures with his might. He possesses enough strength to match beings such as Superman and Wonder Woman in combat. Depending on the incarnation, he could overpower Superman with nothing but brute strength, or vice versa. As a god of New Genesis, he is able to break even the strongest of metals, once breaking aGreen Lantern Ring with his bare hands.[9] It is generally accepted that Darkseid is sufficiently strong to lift 100 tons with minimal effort and is among the universe's strongest beings.

 

So Darksied's strength is roughly on par with Superman's, possibly a little greater or a little less. It's hard to judge Zeus strength but we do know he wrestled Heracles to a draw. We also know that Heracles took the weight of the earth from Atlas in his 11th labor. Holding the earth on one's shoulders seems roughly comparable to Superman's feat of benchpressing the weight of the earth repeatedly. This is imprecise but it does suggest that Atlas, Heracles and Zeus are all roughly in Superman's class. It's hard to tell from this whether Darksied or Zeus has the advantage in strength.  

 

Superhuman Speed: Although rarely displayed, Darkseid can react and manuveur faster than the healthiest and strongest human athlete who partakes in daily exercise. However, Darkseid can't run or move nearly as fast as speeders like Superman or the Flash. In some cases, however, he would often surprise Superman by appearing right behind him. It has been seen that Darkseid can react in microseconds.

 

While there are no stories about Zeus' super speed, he is superior to Hermes in combat and thus probably fast enough to be effective against a super speedster. Again, there is no clear advantage for either combatant.

 

Superhuman Stamina: It is generally accepted that Darkseid can maintain continuous movement and strenuous exercise for unlimited periods of time without ever getting weary or tired in the process, and it that regard, he can battle other aliens for extended amounts of time before tiring.

 

This also appears to be true for Olympians. Atlas is the best example but many of the gods have done things that make them seem tireless.

 

Invulnerability: Darkseid is extremely resistant to most forms of physical and mental harm. Darkseid's full durability capacity varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, humans couldn't even begin to harm him, bullets bounce off him, rockets, bombs and lasers won't even leave a mark on him, and high-voltage energy emissions can't penetrate through him. He is completely immune to all earthly diseases and viruses. Despite his resistance, other high-tier cosmic beings like Superman or the Martian Manhunter can cause him great distress and pain. Also, materials forged from his home world can hurt him as well.

 

This statement seems to apply to the Olympians also. They are occasionally hurt by mortals, but only when the mortals are using Olympian forged weapons or weapons that have been supernaturally enhances, like Heracles' arrows dipped in hydra venom.

 

Immortality: As a god of New Genesis, Darkseid live almost indefinitely, as he can't age, wither, or degrade. However, though it is nearly impossible for him to die, other high-tier aliens like Kryptonians can kill him.

 

Zeus is also immortal.

 

Omega Beams: Darkseid's main power. He focuses this power as a form of energy that he fires from his eyes. This effect is not only a relentless attack, but it is capable of teleporting the target to any location Darkseid chooses and recall them later or erase the target from the universe and similarly reform them. Darkseid has pinpoint control over his Omega Beams, and his unerring aim allows it to travel in straight lines or bend, twist or curve around corners. It has been shown that the Omega Beams are ineffective against the bracelets of Wonder Woman, as they were created from the Olympian Aegis. He has claimed that no being had yet withstood the full force of the Omega Beam, but Doomsday and Superman nonetheless survived the attack.

 

I've bolded what I think is the relevant text here. I am certain that Darksied's Omega Beams are capable of harming or possibly destroying Zeus, but his Aegis is able to block them.

 

Telepathy: Darkseid can easily read minds of others anywhere in entire Universe. In this ability, he can also attack or invade someone's mind with images.

 

 

Mind Control: Darkseid can control the actions, thoughts and speech of humans just by thinking. In the scope of this ability, he can apparently, control and take over 100 individuals at once, indicating the capacity potential his brain can achieve.

 

Psionic Possession: Darkseid's psychic abilities allow him to possess an individual and negate any superhuman abilities they may have.

 

Telepathy is a modern concept so we don't know what the ancient Greeks would have said about telepathy vs the Olympians. We do know that the Olympians were able to send dreams and visions to mortals. It is not clear how effective Darksied's telepathis powers would be on Zeus or how well Zeus could resist. My best guess is that this would be a real struggle for both of them.

 

Telekinesis: Darkseid can mentally influence the movement of objects and people with his mind; he often makes things float with simple gestures of his hand.

 

Zeus does not have this power in any myth I am aware of.

 

Matter Manipulation: Darkseid can transmute and manipulate matter, and in extension atoms, at will; he can destroy humans with a mere thought, and as such, he can even create his own creature complexions by design out of nothing, as he did when he created the being known as Strayne. Also, Darkseid can cause organisms to degrade and de-evolve.

 

Zeus has this power and can transform himself or others. There is no apparent limit to the forms he can use.

 

Molecular Dispersion: He is also able to dissipate and disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing them from existence.

 

Erosion Blasts: Darkseid is able to project energy from his hands as well as his eyes. To this effect the blasts can sustain damages from eradicative to withering in effect, using both aspects to a devastating degree.

 

Zeus does not have these powers but he is able to wield vast destructive power in the form of his thunderbolts.

 

Avatar Creation: A simple thought allows Darkseid to create liable avatars if/when the need arises.

 

Zeus does not seem to have this power.

 

Teleportation: Darkseid can teleport himself and other beings anywhere in the entire Universe even through other dimensions at a mere thought.

 

Zeus does have this power. He can appear on earth or bring mortals to Olympus on a whim.

 

Size Alteration: Darkseid can easily manipulate his size, density and mass just by thinking, enabling him to become any size he wants.

 

The Olympians have this power.

 

Chronokinesis: Darkseid can move and transverse through time at ease.

 

Zeus does not seem to have this power.

 

Power Distribution: Darkseid could endow his lesser subjects with enormous powers. either granting them new abilities, increasing old ones they already possess or restoring lost powers to others at higher levels. He's done so with Mantis, Dr. Bedlam, Mary Marvel and his son; Kalibak.

 

Not as such. Zeus gives special abilities to mortals by siring them or by giving them god-forged gifts.

 

Genius-Level Intellect: Darkseid possesses intelligence that surpasses even the greatest minds in the universe. With this he is an excellent strategist, and has proven that not only sheer force of strength and power has aided him in battles.

 

 

Tactical Analysis: He is a master planner and strategist and his armies are nearly unbeatable under his leadership.

 

Zeus is the war-leader of the Olympians and is only rivaled by Athena in his generalship.  

 

Intimidation: With his frightening visage and ruthless nature, Darkseid instills fear in friend and foe alike, something he no doubt enjoys.

 

Zeus can do this too.

 

Hand-to-Hand Combat (Advanced): Darkseid is a highly-trained Apokoliptian warrior. He has held his own against powerful opponents, such as Superman. Despite his impressive fighting skills, however, Darkseid rarely resorts to personal combat to defeat his foes. Instead, he uses his servants to defeat his enemies for him. Apparently, Darkseid only fights opponents he deems worthy, such as Superman, Batman or Orion.

 

In terms of experience, we have seen Darksied in more fights with serious opponents. Zeus' opponents have been the Titans (he beat them), the giant Sons of Ge (he beat them), Typhon (his record is 1-1.) Zeus is extremely skilled and has a good arsenal of god-killing weapons. His adamantine sickle/sword is able to lop off parts of another god-level opponent with a single stroke and the Medusa's head on his shield can petrify even a god level being who looks on it.

 

Looking at all of this I can imagine a number of ways either fighter could win and in a straight fight I think Zeus' weapons give him the advantage. His Aegis is the ideal defense against Darksied's energy attacks and Omega blasts while I don't see any defense Darksied has against Medusa's face. Even taking that away, it's a tough guy fighting bare handed against a tough guy with a sword and shield.

 

Like I said, there are ways Darksied can win, but I don't think the outcome of this is at all certain or even easy to predict.

[baneblade]

What you say is obvious is less than obvious to me. Here are Darksied's powers from DC.com

 

Superhuman Strength: Darkseid is an extremely powerful alien hailing from planet Apokolips, who possesses colossal super-strength. Darkseid's full strength potential varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, Darkseid can easily overpower and kill humans and most galactic beings, he can bend and break through virtually any man-made material, and can lift extremely heavy objects, decimate full-sized buildings and other structures with his might. He possesses enough strength to match beings such as Superman and Wonder Woman in combat. Depending on the incarnation, he could overpower Superman with nothing but brute strength, or vice versa. As a god of New Genesis, he is able to break even the strongest of metals, once breaking aGreen Lantern Ring with his bare hands.[9] It is generally accepted that Darkseid is sufficiently strong to lift 100 tons with minimal effort and is among the universe's strongest beings.

 

So Darksied's strength is roughly on par with Superman's, possibly a little greater or a little less. It's hard to judge Zeus strength but we do know he wrestled Heracles to a draw. We also know that Heracles took the weight of the earth from Atlas in his 11th labor. Holding the earth on one's shoulders seems roughly comparable to Superman's feat of benchpressing the weight of the earth repeatedly. This is imprecise but it does suggest that Atlas, Heracles and Zeus are all roughly in Superman's class. It's hard to tell from this whether Darksied or Zeus has the advantage in strength.  

 

Superhuman Speed: Although rarely displayed, Darkseid can react and manuveur faster than the healthiest and strongest human athlete who partakes in daily exercise. However, Darkseid can't run or move nearly as fast as speeders like Superman or the Flash. In some cases, however, he would often surprise Superman by appearing right behind him. It has been seen that Darkseid can react in microseconds.

 

While there are no stories about Zeus' super speed, he is superior to Hermes in combat and thus probably fast enough to be effective against a super speedster. Again, there is no clear advantage for either combatant.

 

Superhuman Stamina: It is generally accepted that Darkseid can maintain continuous movement and strenuous exercise for unlimited periods of time without ever getting weary or tired in the process, and it that regard, he can battle other aliens for extended amounts of time before tiring.

 

This also appears to be true for Olympians. Atlas is the best example but many of the gods have done things that make them seem tireless.

 

Invulnerability: Darkseid is extremely resistant to most forms of physical and mental harm. Darkseid's full durability capacity varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, humans couldn't even begin to harm him, bullets bounce off him, rockets, bombs and lasers won't even leave a mark on him, and high-voltage energy emissions can't penetrate through him. He is completely immune to all earthly diseases and viruses. Despite his resistance, other high-tier cosmic beings like Superman or the Martian Manhunter can cause him great distress and pain. Also, materials forged from his home world can hurt him as well.

 

This statement seems to apply to the Olympians also. They are occasionally hurt by mortals, but only when the mortals are using Olympian forged weapons or weapons that have been supernaturally enhances, like Heracles' arrows dipped in hydra venom.

 

Immortality: As a god of New Genesis, Darkseid live almost indefinitely, as he can't age, wither, or degrade. However, though it is nearly impossible for him to die, other high-tier aliens like Kryptonians can kill him.

 

Zeus is also immortal.

 

Omega Beams: Darkseid's main power. He focuses this power as a form of energy that he fires from his eyes. This effect is not only a relentless attack, but it is capable of teleporting the target to any location Darkseid chooses and recall them later or erase the target from the universe and similarly reform them. Darkseid has pinpoint control over his Omega Beams, and his unerring aim allows it to travel in straight lines or bend, twist or curve around corners. It has been shown that the Omega Beams are ineffective against the bracelets of Wonder Woman, as they were created from the Olympian Aegis. He has claimed that no being had yet withstood the full force of the Omega Beam, but Doomsday and Superman nonetheless survived the attack.

 

I've bolded what I think is the relevant text here. I am certain that Darksied's Omega Beams are capable of harming or possibly destroying Zeus, but his Aegis is able to block them.

 

Telepathy: Darkseid can easily read minds of others anywhere in entire Universe. In this ability, he can also attack or invade someone's mind with images.

 

 

Mind Control: Darkseid can control the actions, thoughts and speech of humans just by thinking. In the scope of this ability, he can apparently, control and take over 100 individuals at once, indicating the capacity potential his brain can achieve.

 

Psionic Possession: Darkseid's psychic abilities allow him to possess an individual and negate any superhuman abilities they may have.

 

Telepathy is a modern concept so we don't know what the ancient Greeks would have said about telepathy vs the Olympians. We do know that the Olympians were able to send dreams and visions to mortals. It is not clear how effective Darksied's telepathis powers would be on Zeus or how well Zeus could resist. My best guess is that this would be a real struggle for both of them.

 

Telekinesis: Darkseid can mentally influence the movement of objects and people with his mind; he often makes things float with simple gestures of his hand.

 

Zeus does not have this power in any myth I am aware of.

 

Matter Manipulation: Darkseid can transmute and manipulate matter, and in extension atoms, at will; he can destroy humans with a mere thought, and as such, he can even create his own creature complexions by design out of nothing, as he did when he created the being known as Strayne. Also, Darkseid can cause organisms to degrade and de-evolve.

 

Zeus has this power and can transform himself or others. There is no apparent limit to the forms he can use.

 

Molecular Dispersion: He is also able to dissipate and disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing them from existence.

 

Erosion Blasts: Darkseid is able to project energy from his hands as well as his eyes. To this effect the blasts can sustain damages from eradicative to withering in effect, using both aspects to a devastating degree.

 

Zeus does not have these powers but he is able to wield vast destructive power in the form of his thunderbolts.

 

Avatar Creation: A simple thought allows Darkseid to create liable avatars if/when the need arises.

 

Zeus does not seem to have this power.

 

Teleportation: Darkseid can teleport himself and other beings anywhere in the entire Universe even through other dimensions at a mere thought.

 

Zeus does have this power. He can appear on earth or bring mortals to Olympus on a whim.

 

Size Alteration: Darkseid can easily manipulate his size, density and mass just by thinking, enabling him to become any size he wants.

 

The Olympians have this power.

 

Chronokinesis: Darkseid can move and transverse through time at ease.

 

Zeus does not seem to have this power.

 

Power Distribution: Darkseid could endow his lesser subjects with enormous powers. either granting them new abilities, increasing old ones they already possess or restoring lost powers to others at higher levels. He's done so with Mantis, Dr. Bedlam, Mary Marvel and his son; Kalibak.

 

Not as such. Zeus gives special abilities to mortals by siring them or by giving them god-forged gifts.

 

Genius-Level Intellect: Darkseid possesses intelligence that surpasses even the greatest minds in the universe. With this he is an excellent strategist, and has proven that not only sheer force of strength and power has aided him in battles.

 

 

Tactical Analysis: He is a master planner and strategist and his armies are nearly unbeatable under his leadership.

 

Zeus is the war-leader of the Olympians and is only rivaled by Athena in his generalship.  

 

Intimidation: With his frightening visage and ruthless nature, Darkseid instills fear in friend and foe alike, something he no doubt enjoys.

 

Zeus can do this too.

 

Hand-to-Hand Combat (Advanced): Darkseid is a highly-trained Apokoliptian warrior. He has held his own against powerful opponents, such as Superman. Despite his impressive fighting skills, however, Darkseid rarely resorts to personal combat to defeat his foes. Instead, he uses his servants to defeat his enemies for him. Apparently, Darkseid only fights opponents he deems worthy, such as Superman, Batman or Orion.

 

In terms of experience, we have seen Darksied in more fights with serious opponents. Zeus' opponents have been the Titans (he beat them), the giant Sons of Ge (he beat them), Typhon (his record is 1-1.) Zeus is extremely skilled and has a good arsenal of god-killing weapons. His adamantine sickle/sword is able to lop off parts of another god-level opponent with a single stroke and the Medusa's head on his shield can petrify even a god level being who looks on it.

 

Looking at all of this I can imagine a number of ways either fighter could win and in a straight fight I think Zeus' weapons give him the advantage. His Aegis is the ideal defense against Darksied's energy attacks and Omega blasts while I don't see any defense Darksied has against Medusa's face. Even taking that away, it's a tough guy fighting bare handed against a tough guy with a sword and shield.

 

Like I said, there are ways Darksied can win, but I don't think the outcome of this is at all certain or even easy to predict.

What everyone missed, (or I missed if someone stated) is that Darkseid took a being far more powerful than Zeus. Zeus is a deity at best, and has a history in various appearances and media, to wield a power-set that is at best 'varying'. At best, his most effective application of power has been to blow things in combat, and transport himself from one place to another, or simply vanquish a lesser God or being, again with the same power set, his God-endowed thunder/energy/signature. Darkseid faced off the Source, who single-handedly created the New Genesis universe; and single-handedly wiped it out as well. Seid did not match his power, but contained it, and with a little experiment, took it for himself. It was the comic-block of 'hooks' that prevented him to wield it onward and win. He didn't use a contraption borrowed, but had a 'concoction' of sorts prepared with his brains, and used it to win the fight. The Source, need I say is also 'smart' and balanced in thinking. The only loophole was his over confidence. That was one loophole that Seid well knew and exploited. With Zeus, and his short temper, one that is synonymous between his versions and various media, (leave for the Clash of the Titans 'docile Zeus'), Seid will have a fab time manipulating him. Seid knows full well what Zeus can do head on. In real comic terms, don't expect Seid to rush in like a fool and overpower the greek gods, but plan, execute a sequence of plans, involving perhaps greek gods' neglected underlings even, and then win the battle and Olympus. It is true, it will happen, (and as Sirmethos pointed out, actually did on a certain scale).

[Guest skadoosh]

I would assume Darkseid, and from what's been said, i'd have to go with Darkseid, but Zeus is still a very powerful deity, so i don't think it would be an easy fight. I also think it depends how physical the fight is, which depends on how honourable the two Gods are feeling, i suppose.

[Guest force_echo]

Darkseid was enhanced when he beat the Source.

[baneblade]

Darkseid was enhanced when he beat the Source.

Yes, he was but it just does not end there. He was not 'enhanced pre-conforntation', but became enhanced essentially when he got in proximity of the Source. That was the whole point: He would not face Source head on, a being in my estimate smarter, and more powerful than Zeus. With Zeus, and his destructive legendary temper, Seid's machinations would get an A, as I deduce honestly, that he would not take Zeus head-on, if at all Zeus was more powerful.

[Bergy_Berg]

Zues isn't a novice to trickery. He's as likely to trick Darkseid-who I don't believe is known for his level headedness either-as Darkseid is to trick him. He didn't take the reigns of Olympus based purely on his own raw power, even though it is immense.

[baneblade]

Zues isn't a novice to trickery. He's as likely to trick Darkseid-who I don't believe is known for his level headedness either-as Darkseid is to trick him. He didn't take the reigns of Olympus based purely on his own raw power, even though it is immense.

 I could have agreed with that point on Zeus, if it wasn't for the multiple fallibilities he has shown in different media (DC comics, literary works, movies etc.). Even that point aside, Darkseid not known for his level-headedness is quite incorrect bro. His level-headedness was what brought him to outsmart his own 'maker'. A maker that in my honest opinion is past Zeus in smarts and even power. If anything, Zeus has every fallibility that Source had and that is stretching it. Seid literally played that chess on a grand scale. If not for PIS, he had actually triumphed in Final Crisis, again, past the Source. I think with that experience and fail-safe mindset, Zeus has more on the plate here than he can truly digest.

[Bergy_Berg]

I'm assuming Zeus is at his best here. Much like you're ignoring any animated version of dsrkseid, who would be ripped apart byzeus in moments, I won't be including Zeus from DC comics.

[baneblade]

I'm assuming Zeus is at his best here. Much like you're ignoring any animated version of dsrkseid, who would be ripped apart byzeus in moments, I won't be including Zeus from DC comics.

Assumption is dangerous bro. I did not assume anything. Zeus does not a particular 'standard' medium have. He's been in Marvel, the movies, literature, DC, and perhaps even other comic publishers. Seid has a 'standard', the mainstream comic version is THE version. When you deal with the stats this way, I also assumed Zeus at his strongest. ANd then what is he at his strongest? Which feat? I would think the feat from Immortals where he simply vanquishes Apollo as punishment is an impressive feat, and one that Seid can easily ape. I am not saying in the same manner, all I am saying is, Seid has weilded power beyond a 'greater' 'God' in my opinion, one that actually created him!  Source knew about him, Zeus is likely to be ignorant of him. He will almost definitely underestimate him (mostly does his opponent, leave for Clash or Wrath of the Titans). It is only logical that against Seid, he acts within his 'characteristics'. Again, clarifying, it is not the power that beats Zeus, it is Seid's machinations. If schemes and power takeovers have worked against Zeus in multiple occasions, Seid is but a smidge above that when you consider contingencies.

[Bergy_Berg]

The closest thing to Zeus's standard medium would be the classic myths. Marvel, DC, movie, and contemporary literature are not mediums to be used in this argument.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

BergyBerg is right. This is meant to be the Zeus of classic myth and I did my best to outline his powers and limitations in the write-up. 

 

I agree with what several people are saying. If this was a scenario where Darksied was plotting, manipulating, and corrupting he would do much better. However, the set up is geared to see which would win a straight up physical fight with no real preparation aside from having their standard weapons available. Darksied trying to take over Olympus with elaborate scheming would be a very interesting fight, but it's a different fight than this one.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

If I was doing this again I think I'd have given all the weaker New Gods a swarm of parademons. 

[Bergy_Berg]

Good idea. A couple of the matches were just absolute stomps due to the implied power of an Old God.

[DSkillz]

If it helps out creatively, I've just added Atlas, the Titan. 

 

http://www.electricferret.com/cbub/cbubcats/show?cid=8944

 

Not sure where he'd fit in this rumble arc, though, since he's an enemy of the Greek Gods.

[baneblade]

The closest thing to Zeus's standard medium would be the classic myths. Marvel, DC, movie, and contemporary literature are not mediums to be used in this argument.

If that is the case, then there really is no match at all. See, Zeus in mythological depiction, has sketchy, but 'absolute' power. Meaning he is 'God' literally. That only means, that he is above diety-level. Also, Seid is being pushed into a heads-on pinfall style confrontation. In this case, there is no match. Zeus just thinks a scenario, and it is. Seid loses. What threw me off was the particular set of Zeus' powers mentioned on the first page. With those powers (alone), he has no chance against Seid. Now though, that it is being stated that he is the mythological Zeus only, and not any other media depicted Zeus, then he is God as in Greek religlious belief. There is no competition there. Perhaps you could have conducted some additional research and just plainly stated that it is the Zeus of ancient greek mythology. Check it out, and in multiple sources, the depiction is, that the use of these 'toys' you mention in the description, is only a fun thing for Zeus. Yest, he is a God in description much less than the real thing, that needs no physical medium to 'operate'. Even though, he is the next best thing to actually God.

 

Also, I only said Seid loses, because per the developments now, 1) This is only an upfront slugfest 2) Zeus is Zeus as in ancient greek mythology, only, no other filtered depiction

 

The result/opinion of outcome aside; I think rumbles should be more 'constructive'. Example. Seid with his natural backdrop, and Zeus with his. If that happens, my opinion on the outcome will be different, since even with the God thing going, he is still a physical medium that uses a physical materialistic backdrop to 'operate'. Again, that is another story for another debate.

 

This one, Zeus takes, with clarification of the fight background.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

If that is the case, then there really is no match at all. See, Zeus in mythological depiction, has sketchy, but 'absolute' power. Meaning he is 'God' literally. That only means, that he is above diety-level.

 

I don't know what source you're looking at, it doesn't sound like anything I've seen. In Greek myth Zeus does not have anything like absolute power. He can be defeated (he was defeated by the monster Typhon) and he and the other Olympians are subject to the whims of fate. That's a constant theme in ancient Greek drama, that not even the gods can defy the workings of fate.

 

 

Zeus just thinks a scenario, and it is. Seid loses. What threw me off was the particular set of Zeus' powers mentioned on the first page. With those powers (alone), he has no chance against Seid

 

I challenge you to find any myth in which Zeus is able to do this.

 

 

 

Perhaps you could have conducted some additional research and just plainly stated that it is the Zeus of ancient greek mythology. Check it out, and in multiple sources, the depiction is, that the use of these 'toys' you mention in the description, is only a fun thing for Zeus. Yest, he is a God in description much less than the real thing, that needs no physical medium to 'operate'. Even though, he is the next best thing to actually God.

 

It was very plainly stated in the set up that this is the Zeus of myth.

 

As for research, I'm happy to share my sources. On-line I looked at wikipedia's article on Zeus as well as the Encyclopedia Mythica and the Theion Project. I've read quite a few books on Greek myth over the years and don't remember all the titles but I have read Thomas Bullfinch and Edith Hamilton's books and I have read Hesiod's Theogeny, Ovid's Metamorphosis, and all of Homer. I haven't found any hint in any of those sources that Zeus' weapons were considered "toys" or that they "is only a fun thing fro Zeus."

 

But I could be wrong. Why don't you list some of your "multiple sources" and show me where my research went wrong?

[baneblade]

I don't know what source you're looking at, it doesn't sound like anything I've seen. In Greek myth Zeus does not have anything like absolute power. He can be defeated (he was defeated by the monster Typhon) and he and the other Olympians are subject to the whims of fate. That's a constant theme in ancient Greek drama, that not even the gods can defy the workings of fate.

 

 

 

I challenge you to find any myth in which Zeus is able to do this.

 

 

 

 

It was very plainly stated in the set up that this is the Zeus of myth.

 

As for research, I'm happy to share my sources. On-line I looked at wikipedia's article on Zeus as well as the Encyclopedia Mythica and the Theion Project. I've read quite a few books on Greek myth over the years and don't remember all the titles but I have read Thomas Bullfinch and Edith Hamilton's books and I have read Hesiod's Theogeny, Ovid's Metamorphosis, and all of Homer. I haven't found any hint in any of those sources that Zeus' weapons were considered "toys" or that they "is only a fun thing fro Zeus."

 

But I could be wrong. Why don't you list some of your "multiple sources" and show me where my research went wrong?

 

 

Hey bro. I think more than butting heads on the facts, we are walking the dreaded gray area. Even the comprehension of the whole scenario will just open a can of ‘mythology’ than folks would like here. It will all eventually come down to what I and you think in our particular capacities.

 

In any case, to address your comments bro, your research was never stated to be 'wrong'. If I said that, I take the statement back. I know I didn't though. What you are trying to do is pin point just the abilities, and pit Seid and Zeus against each other? Forgive me for my mindset, that usually goes all out, takes in the character history, references, tendencies, fallibility, and then place them in scenarios in which they are most likely to be able to go to their full set of abilities and that (to me) includes 'extras'(, if that is the way a character rolls). Eg: Zeus being absolute? Perhaps I should have explained better the way I see it. He is the chief figure among Gods. To be able to face Seid in his ‘mythic’ glory derived from the works you cited and core greek religious beliefs, that would mean his full reach to the other Gods and deities, that cover an extensive array of domains, places and spheres of power. (Hercules, Poseidon, Athena etc.). To me, the mythical Zeus often had a hand, making his power overwhelming by default. Whether he effected something with this luxury or not is irrelevant in mythical works; what is important is that he had a varying set of Goddesses and Gods that either opposed him or stood with him.

 

Ex: Could Zeus, Aphrodite, Ares and Apollo, who supported the Trojan wars simply overpower the opposite, greeks’ supporting combo of Hera, Athena and Poseidon, literally speaking, in terms of raw power and ruthlessness? I think they would, but that’s not how the ‘fate’ played out. Complexities, outer elements, all related to them came into the ‘myth’ and convoluted a war scenario, the way I see it.

 

What I was trying to explain was, my derivation is simple: He is the ‘head honcho GOD’, and in that, while other Gods don’t fall into line all the time, there are enough that will help him consolidate the power, truly, literally in terms that have been exemplified in Greek mythology. Take the support of the Trojan war for instance, or Zeus’ mistrust, or alliances of the others. When Olympus is threatened, I know in literal terms they will consolidate power, especially when they see the threat as a New God. That is all I tried to say, that picking from that area of myth, Zeus would be ‘absolute’. He would just direct, and point power and Seid wouldn’t stand a chance. Remember too, bro, that the Greek mythological references have one thing in common, variations in laying out the events and myths. In that case, you would pick from one degree or another. No rules or tethers there.

 

Now, with my jargon, that might or might not sound confusing at this point; if you yourself begin citing pin-pointed facts, and particular scale sets of powers, then it is what we call, like an arcade isn’t it? In that case, character backdrops, and hooks, and fates don’t matter. So which is it bro? All the hooks loopholes and tethers in tow, or just the character and his power-set? Is it the character in character, or just the character with the power sets and abilities? If you even mention history here, it begins convoluting the match. Ex: if you say, yup; Zeus was stomped by Typhon (whereas, in the same convoluted manner, it states on every man’s layman reference, Wikepedia, that Zeus beat him), or if he won, and he is experienced from that angle, then it wouldn’t be fair. Fair to Seid that is. Since Seid has battled Superman, tot to toe, and others in synch some times, and stood his ground. In each battle though, Seid relied on extras, like you state Zeus relying in part or more, on the Eagle. Hence, is it just two beings here, sans experience and only skills sets, or do you cite skill sets and a portion of experience and battle cred? You can’t just say I pick this element out of a charcter’s psyche or abilities, and here he is. It only sounds balanced, that if a certain portion of the experience is there, it might as well be all of it, and likewise, the character’s experience, and his backdrop of his mannerisms, tendencies, and battle cred and deception or duplicity.

 

Sorry if I sound confusing, (maybe not), but to put it best in a capsule, here goes: 3 takes bro.

 

If this is battle upfront, with both ‘out of their element’ and in their particular power sets only:

Seid wins.  Seid’s speed outpaces Zeus, as does his strength and durability. Zeus could not out wrestle Hercules. Superman has greater feats of strength and speed, and Seid matched him in those fights, toe to toe, tooth and nail. He has even knocked him out.

 

Seid has also shown multiple abilities, and has a motherbox, that advises, heals, and protects him to a great degree. Even if not for that, his ability to manipulate matter, and channel energy, or teleport his intended target to makeshift prison dimensions upon mere contact  is something I just don’t see Zeus trumping, or avoiding, for that matter. Zeus has teleportation ability, but Seid has deceptive abilities in battle that helped him pin point Superman’s next ‘stop’ and land a blow, counting in certain part, as a speed ability, but also quick thinking. His beams are stated in power-set in standard media as unavoidable. That itself puts Zeus and his Eagle against insurmountable odds. Seid’s latest power the sanction, is even worse.

 

Now, if this is a battle taken as one on one, strictly again, but with the underpinnings you mentioned, that their respective baggage is with them, from myth or comic, but it is still strictly ‘direct battle’, then Zeus with his excessive ‘godly’ baggage wins. His assistance, and support is just too much for Seid to overcome. That is the way I see it.

 

If this is a battle staged as a free thinking man’s ground, where both characters face off, but bring all that is characteristic of them, eventually, into the battle, Seid wins. He will plan a plan, and take a take that will be too much for Zeus… to uh, take.

 

Now bro, this is my opinion. I respect yours, and am not an avid ‘brawler’ when it comes to debates. I don’t call names or state incapacities in my fellow ferreters. I can be wrong, and will admit my defeat if it is there in front of me. Right here, it is my take, in 3 scenarios that I see this happening.

 

Cheers, till next post bro.

[kainboa]

I think more than butting heads on the facts, we are walking the dreaded gray area.

Yes, because simply using the facts is obviously the wrong way to debate [/sarcasm]

your research was never stated to be 'wrong'. If I said that, I take the statement back.

If his research isn't wrong, then your argument is irrelevant, as the point you made, is proven wrong by the research he's done.

Zeus being absolute? Perhaps I should have explained better the way I see it. He is the chief figure among Gods.

In the mythology, it was never stated that Zeus was the most powerful of the gods, both Poseidon and Hades were equally powerful.
On top of that, none of the three were ever stated to be 'all-powerful'.

To me, the mythical Zeus often had a hand, making his power overwhelming by default.

Your belief is directly contradicted by source material, which makes it wrong, and your argument irrelevant, just like every other fanboy argument.

Could Zeus, Aphrodite, Ares and Apollo, who supported the Trojan wars simply overpower the opposite, greeks’ supporting combo of Hera, Athena and Poseidon, literally speaking, in terms of raw power and ruthlessness?

Ruthlessness, perhaps, power, no.

That is all I tried to say, that picking from that area of myth, Zeus would be ‘absolute’. He would just direct, and point power and Seid wouldn’t stand a chance.

So, your argument is that Zeus could just call in reinforcements from the rest of the pantheon, and Darkseid wouldn't stand a chance...

That's not the way this works, unless the OP states that Zeus can call in reinforcements, he can't.

[Guest sirmethos]

Ok, now that I've had a little time, here's a little more comprehensive post.  I won't have my usual amount of time for another 4-5 days though

 

That said...

 

 

"We also know that Heracles took the weight of the earth from Atlas in his 11th labor. Holding the earth on one's shoulders seems roughly comparable to Superman's feat of benchpressing the weight of the earth repeatedly."

No, we do not "know that Heracles took the weight of the earth from Atlas".  Heracles took the weight of the sky from Atlas.  And I'd really love to see what data you have, that makes that comparable to Superman benching the weight of the Earth, for 5 days straight.



"While there are no stories about Zeus' super speed, he is superior to Hermes in combat and thus probably fast enough to be effective against a super speedster. Again, there is no clear advantage for either combatant."

Yea, let's stop assuming for a moment, and actually look at the available data.

1. There is not a single mention of Zeus having any measure of "super speed".   If there is no mention of it, at all, then he doesn't have it.  No "ifs" or "buts" about it.

2. He(zeus) is "superior to Hermes in combat".  That could mean several different things. It could simply mean that he's a better fighter, that he is more powerful, more versatile, or have more experience.  Without having provided anything to support it(even a direct mention of it), you have instead jumped directly to the conclusion, that it means Zeus can(or even has) defeat Hermes in battle.

2a. Let's for a moment go with the interpretation that Zeus has defeated Hermes in battle.  Does that automatically mean that he is fast enough to keep up with his speed?  No, it really doesn't.   Zeus is capable of high-scale Weather Manipulation. That means, that he can set up weather conditions that makes it harder(if not impossible) for Hermes to use his speed advantage(since Hermes doesn't really have anything other than his speed).  Or use his Weather Manipulation for Large-Area attacks.


That said, if you have anything to support your statement(s) that A. Zeus is fast enough(either in actual speed, or just in reflexes) to be effective against a super speedster. and B. that there is no clear advantage for either side. Then I'd love to see it.



"This also appears to be true for Olympians. Atlas is the best example but many of the gods have done things that make them seem tireless."

1. You haven't provided any actual quotes or examples, to support the statement that "many gods have done things that make them seem tireless".

and 2. No, Atlas is not "the best example".  Why?  Because Atlas is a Titan, not one of the Olympian Gods.


"The closest thing to Zeus's standard medium would be the classic myths."

Well, that's partially true.  There are several "classic myths" in the Greek Mythology, with various traditions having different myths. The orphic myths for example, is part of the "classic myths", but from the outline given in the OP, it is most definitely not the Orphic Zeus we are dealing with here.

However, there are different 'feats' that are only shown in certain traditions.  For example, defeating Typhon, was only described in certain traditions, while in other traditions, Typhon was never mentioned at all.

There are some traditions where certain gods were never mentioned at all, while in other traditions, some of those gods were among the most powerful(a good example is Nyx, that is not mentioned at all in some of the traditions, but who is so powerful that even Zeus is afraid of angering her in the Orphic traditions).


"See, Zeus in mythological depiction, has sketchy, but 'absolute' power. Meaning he is 'God' literally."

Again, only partially true.  Different traditions, etc.


"In Greek myth Zeus does not have anything like absolute power."

In the Orphic traditions, he pretty much does.

Orphic Zeus is one of the most powerful Gods in all the various 'ancient' mythologies.

[baneblade]

I think more than butting heads on the facts, we are walking the dreaded gray area.

 

Yes, because simply using the facts is obviously the wrong way to debate [/sarcasm]

 

your research was never stated to be 'wrong'. If I said that, I take the statement back.

 

If his research isn't wrong, then your argument is irrelevant, as the point you made, is proven wrong by the research he's done.

 

Zeus being absolute? Perhaps I should have explained better the way I see it. He is the chief figure among Gods.

 

In the mythology, it was never stated that Zeus was the most powerful of the gods, both Poseidon and Hades were equally powerful.

On top of that, none of the three were ever stated to be 'all-powerful'.

 

To me, the mythical Zeus often had a hand, making his power overwhelming by default.

 

Your belief is directly contradicted by source material, which makes it wrong, and your argument irrelevant, just like every other fanboy argument.

 

Could Zeus, Aphrodite, Ares and Apollo, who supported the Trojan wars simply overpower the opposite, greeks’ supporting combo of Hera, Athena and Poseidon, literally speaking, in terms of raw power and ruthlessness?

 

Ruthlessness, perhaps, power, no.

 

That is all I tried to say, that picking from that area of myth, Zeus would be ‘absolute’. He would just direct, and point power and Seid wouldn’t stand a chance.

 

So, your argument is that Zeus could just call in reinforcements from the rest of the pantheon, and Darkseid wouldn't stand a chance...

 

That's not the way this works, unless the OP states that Zeus can call in reinforcements, he can't.

How's it going Kain bro? Multiple concerns here eh?

What you too are doing is walking in a gray area. I will keep this as less confusing as I can, and try to do it for the both of us:

 

1 - No source material states Hades, Zeus, Poseidon as 'equals'. In fact, source material depicts Zeus as the head figure among Gods. Did I say clearly, concisely, that he consolidated power? Or, all Gods do not fall in line with him, or that Zeus is 'more' powerful? I think not. I said, powerful by default. If I didn't come clearly enough the last time, I beg to correct myself then. Zeus is powerful over any, by defauly. In ancient greek mythology, he is the ruler of Olympus. Lets delve on common sense here and think to ourselves, that for a party of Gods power-hungry and essentially control-hungry, what is to stop them wresting control from him? Hades, Poseidon if equals, in mythology, you suggest, inadvertently, are agreeable with everyhting Zeus does? I think not.

2 - EVen if you check their feats, I am sorry to say, the lineup of Zeus, Apollo and Ares overwhelm the opposite lineup in power, and numbers. It is logical, not just a taken. Even so, if I did say 'power', my implication was not in terms of power sets. Zeus is a leading figure of Olympus, has the support of the God of War. You really want to tell me bro, that Hera and Athena in facing off with them in tag style match would win over the former combo? I think not.

3 - Reasearch not being wrong is not he same as research being yet to be complete. There is a difference between the two. In case you didn't notice, but pointed out inadvertently, I added to his 'research', not take away from it.

4- Simply using the facts according to you bro, is the right way to debate then? OK, lets pick an example: How strong do you think is Spiderman? Can he lift 'tons' of metal? Yes, how much? 20, 30, at best? Yet, he lifted close to 50 tons in a storyline from the past. I am not saying it bro, the main scribe, Mr. Ditko stated it, when Spiderman had to save Aunt May and ended up being buried under a factory-load of metal, and powered out by lifting, and throwing it aside. What is the 'fact' there bro? Is it 50-60 tons? No? But did he lift it? Yes. What the scribe said, was the fury arising in Spiderman's heart and mind, that enabled even his injured frame to ppower otu of the debris? So does that make him Wonderman class strong? I think not. The fact, then could logically be used, that Spiderman has pressed close to 50 - 60 tons, so he can do it routinely? No bro. That fact is a fact, but yet, it can not be used in a debate to beat another opponent. Period. Lets talk Cap, falling the smarter, more resilient and resourceful Hulk, by exploiting his pressure points. Now, is that a taken, routine fact? WIll Cap fell a less smarter but rempaging Hulk using the same technique? Fact there is, Cap won, straight up, hand to hand, without Hulk holding back. Yet, on another one of his finest days, he could be taking a licking along with a few of the Avengers, trying to multiple team Hulk. What is the fact to be taken there bro? Superman presses tons, and grunts; is a fact. He tugs aline og planets, or moves another planet sized sructure effortlessly, no grunts. What is the fact. Did he have issues lifting something smaller, and scoffed and smiled at something much much heavier? The facts there would be convoluting, even if produced in these forums, and they have confused and derided reason. No bro, the way to go is this, it depends, on your definition of facts. If it is a close minded thing, where you do not comprehend the whole picture, and then pick what you want to debate, from a set of lines, it will confuse, and make the argument bleak. If you comprehend the big picture, and see from a set of established stats, your argument will be better. I will tell you, what I stated, and what then always works. History, character psyche, published/established characteristic of determination, extras, sources and of course, many a time, feats. That is the only fact there is to know in a debate bro.

5 - While you addressed my few concerns, you did the dreaded, pick your statement to debate thing. Never do that bro. Comprehend the whole thing. I gave a synopisis of the outcomes, as I saw it, and I think in it, comprehended a lot, if not all. While you can disagree, you can not say, that I didnot try from my end to cite every possible scenario. I among my choices, also mentioned, that if they go one on one, period. You either  missed the part bro, or confused it; and I know you to be smart enough debater to get confused in that part. It was pretty straight forward, literally. yet you, picked a statement from a set of, and stated on it, contradicting the practice of full comprehension and then answer.

Other than that, bro, lets keep the respect going on these threads, name calling, even 'remotely'; ex: 'like a fanboy', or implied sarcasm, showing the other to be 'stupid' or not smart enough, doesnot a debate make, rather outdoes it. You agree with me on this do you not bro?

[Guest force_echo]

I have little to no idea what Baneblade is talking about, but if in that huge block of text he's trying to discount feats as not normal incidents like I think he's saying, that's-- surprising to say the least. You were the one who counted PIS in all instances, now are you going back and saying that feats can be discounted depending on the circumstance?