Lady Shiva vs Daredevil

[baneblade]

Lets all not delude ourselves here brothers.

 

I am taking the encounters as they occur, as listed in that order:

 

1) Random fight: Shiva. DD will be more taken by surprise than anticipated in this one

 

2) (I presume) re-match in a dojo: 

 

Scenario A - In a re-match, in closed quarters, and both fighters knowing the other's capability, I just don't see one winning there. Draw, whichever way you cook it. Reason is simple: DD can get taken down by Shiva once, in the random match, which is not a cakewalk by any means.  Shiva is a better martial artist, which is why she will trump DD's senses in the first match. In the second match, in closed quarters and a terrain limit, Shiva could avert DD's strikes, but he will also both from experience and the unfair radar sense advantage, avert many of her key strikes, if not all. This is strictly if it is a re-match.

 

Scenrio B - Again, if I missed something bluntly, and this is not a re-match, Shiva will win, even harder than she did on open terrain, because the 'rooftop' advantage goes both ways, for both fighters. DD will have an advantage if he has faced off Shiva before. If he hasn't, then his 'inexperience' with her, and that too, in closed quarters will afford her an easier win than on the roof top.

 

As for skill sets. Lets say they were evenly matched, there is one thing that is in Shiva's favour, certain surefire 'killing' strikes, which she can land on DD. She will also figure out quickly he has 'senses', and he is blind. She is devious, whereas he is essentially a good person, in spite of being a kick-ass fighter. Even with his radar sense, she will be ruthless enough to stand out.

 

My take bros. Good debate going though.

[Dark Spider-man]

I think his Radar Sense will battle against her ability to read movements just like when he fought Spidey for the first time I think it will be extremely hard for her to hit him and him to hit her.  It'd just be back and forth.  His Radar Sense will pick up literally every single movement she is making every kick, punch, death blow, sneak attack, whatever his Radar Sense is going to pick it up.  DD is at 100% in this fight as is her so I don't get why people think she can beat him so easily(correct me if I'm wrong).  Like some have said before Shiva is the better fighter but DD's Radar Sense will give him an edge.  That is why he lasted against Spidey, Hulk, Wolverine, etc.  His Radar Sense is his best friend. 

[Guest Darxeth]

His Radar sense didn't stop him from getting tagged from the likes of Iron Fists, Black Panther, or Captain America.

[baneblade]

I think his Radar Sense will battle against her ability to read movements just like when he fought Spidey for the first time I think it will be extremely hard for her to hit him and him to hit her.  It'd just be back and forth.  His Radar Sense will pick up literally every single movement she is making every kick, punch, death blow, sneak attack, whatever his Radar Sense is going to pick it up.  DD is at 100% in this fight as is her so I don't get why people think she can beat him so easily(correct me if I'm wrong).  Like some have said before Shiva is the better fighter but DD's Radar Sense will give him an edge.  That is why he lasted against Spidey, Hulk, Wolverine, etc.  His Radar Sense is his best friend. 

His radar sense is not being under estimated at all. In fact, (from how I look at it), most good bros. on this post have acknowledged that advantage one way or another. The pivot of the fight lies not in the conventional on goings here bro. It is the 'unconventional' side we are referring to. (some of us anyway). That be Shiva's fighting sense. While DD has his sense, and like bro Darxeth correctly pointed, out; he has been tagged before in spite of it, from fighters not as articulate or versed as Shiva, (or even if they are as versed as her in H2H); Shiva is not your regular top of the line baddy:

 

She trained the Godda**** Batman to help him get back, with rather 'unconventional' techniques that were 'tailor made' for his condition, that not only healed him, but attempted to make him a ruthless fighter. That letter didn;t work as his meditative edge held sway over the psychological 'attempts'. These were of course, fueled singularly by her imparting him knowledge of singular 'killing blows' designed to push the mind to extremes. All she wanted in return was, a fight to the death any good time in the future.

 

To able to do that to one of the most highly rated 'fighters' in any comic universe is not some mere feat. It showed that she had much more in tow, and only lived to fight.

 

Traditionally, DD's sense would avert a less articulate fighter, but not some one as knowledgeable in the arts as Shiva. The only time(s) she has billed to lose is due to under estimation. Cassandra Cain being an example. Kelly Pucket himself confirmed this. Believe me bro, DD is a 'new' opponent, and at least 'threatening looking' enough for Shiva not to drop her guard. Each action he projects will be used against him, as will hers against hers. Except, hers will be far lesser than his.

[The Void]

Good posts baneblade.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Thanks for you help Methos

[Guest bigballerju]

Daredevil has been tagged by fighters who all can tag Shiva. Retraining Batman is a good feat but Daredevil has good feats that show he can beat her and some of his feats of who he has fought to a standstill or beaten surpass Lady Shiva's. Also Daredevil has a lot of experience fighting superior foes. By now he is use to it and knows how to improvise in such fights. In addition people keep talking about Daredevil's senses like that's the only reason he would win. Daredevil is faster and stronger then Shiva. Daredevil can improvise on the fly in battle and has the skills of multiple fighting styles to back it up. Daredevil has been through much worse in his career.

[Dark Spider-man]

His radar sense is not being under estimated at all. In fact, (from how I look at it), most good bros. on this post have acknowledged that advantage one way or another. The pivot of the fight lies not in the conventional on goings here bro. It is the 'unconventional' side we are referring to. (some of us anyway). That be Shiva's fighting sense. While DD has his sense, and like bro Darxeth correctly pointed, out; he has been tagged before in spite of it, from fighters not as articulate or versed as Shiva, (or even if they are as versed as her in H2H); Shiva is not your regular top of the line baddy:

 

She trained the Godda**** Batman to help him get back, with rather 'unconventional' techniques that were 'tailor made' for his condition, that not only healed him, but attempted to make him a ruthless fighter. That letter didn;t work as his meditative edge held sway over the psychological 'attempts'. These were of course, fueled singularly by her imparting him knowledge of singular 'killing blows' designed to push the mind to extremes. All she wanted in return was, a fight to the death any good time in the future.

 

To able to do that to one of the most highly rated 'fighters' in any comic universe is not some mere feat. It showed that she had much more in tow, and only lived to fight.

 

Traditionally, DD's sense would avert a less articulate fighter, but not some one as knowledgeable in the arts as Shiva. The only time(s) she has billed to lose is due to under estimation. Cassandra Cain being an example. Kelly Pucket himself confirmed this. Believe me bro, DD is a 'new' opponent, and at least 'threatening looking' enough for Shiva not to drop her guard. Each action he projects will be used against him, as will hers against hers. Except, hers will be far lesser than his.

Good points but I just think that some people of overistimating DD like he wouldn't stand a chance when he's fought people in higher rank than him.  I'm not saying he'd win easily I'm just saying that Lady Shiva wouldn't beat him as easily either.

 

 

Daredevil has been tagged by fighters who all can tag Shiva. Retraining Batman is a good feat but Daredevil has good feats that show he can beat her and some of his feats of who he has fought to a standstill or beaten surpass Lady Shiva's. Also Daredevil has a lot of experience fighting superior foes. By now he is use to it and knows how to improvise in such fights. In addition people keep talking about Daredevil's senses like that's the only reason he would win. Daredevil is faster and stronger then Shiva. Daredevil can improvise on the fly in battle and has the skills of multiple fighting styles to back it up. Daredevil has been through much worse in his career.

I was just making out that his Radar Sense is a good factor.  I wasn't implying that he has to only use his Radar Sense to win.  I'm on both sides technically, I think that DD can beat Shiva and Shiva can beat DD I just think that it won't be easy for neither to beeat the other the winner wither it be DD or Shiva is going to leave with some bumps and bruises.

[Guest bigballerju]

Good points. I think you meant to say underestimating Daredevil. Just a minor correction there in your post to baneblade.

[Dark Spider-man]

Good points. I think you meant to say underestimating Daredevil. Just a minor correction there in your post to baneblade.

Yeah I meant underistimating, sorry about that.  Lol.

[baneblade]

Daredevil has been tagged by fighters who all can tag Shiva. Retraining Batman is a good feat but Daredevil has good feats that show he can beat her and some of his feats of who he has fought to a standstill or beaten surpass Lady Shiva's. Also Daredevil has a lot of experience fighting superior foes. By now he is use to it and knows how to improvise in such fights. In addition people keep talking about Daredevil's senses like that's the only reason he would win. Daredevil is faster and stronger then Shiva. Daredevil can improvise on the fly in battle and has the skills of multiple fighting styles to back it up. Daredevil has been through much worse in his career.

 

 

 

Baller ma bro. Good debate going.

 

I will try to see if I can type on some of your points.

 

1 - Facing other powerhouse fighters/super powered fighters:

 

One of the oft quoted and produced scenarios is his infiltration and dropping of the Avengers like flies. While not THE feat, it to this day, stands as a talked about feat in comicdom. Why? Because almost all folks debated that the mix had Cap, Herc and Black Widow al at once! True. But with more mirrors than the eye has begun to see:

 

Point is, DD exploited a scenario when he took the Avengers, in that he not only sprung a surprise, but there were external factors at work, ex: his out of the usual feral mindset, and the darkness that aided him. Many call it PIS. I accept it though, as it happened, but I do not in any case see it as a run of the mill occurring.

 

For the feat to stand, both team and DD would have to be in their elements, not heightened or more brutal, or taking advantage of an external factor that suits them more than it suits an opponent. I only gave the example so you can see where I am coming from when trying to gauge the fighter’s ‘prowess’.

 

2 - DD being faster than Shiva: Bro mine, it is debatable. I am not saying he is, or isn’t. I am only saying that it is debatable. Shiva is a character whose traits are as ambiguous as they are shown. Ex: Not all her fights have been chronicled, but only spoken about. Then she goes on to train Bats, without breaking a sweat. Hence, while her feats are ‘lesser’ in quantity than DD’s, the quality of that one feat alone is one hell of a derider to any fighter’s resume. You will have to work damn hard to deride this one bro. While the League of Assassins also trained Bats, Shiva ‘rebuilt him’, restructured his skills, and took him to the next level without ‘engaging’ him. That is no small feat. Mr. Moench, and O’Niel who were onboard writing duties then, stated this.

 

What that shows is that while an old guy can teach a young one new tricks, two folks in their prime can not exactly do the same with each other. It would only work, if one had extraordinary skills wildly out of the ordinary. Bats’ re-structuring was a much more complex challenge. In that, it is a severely underestimated feat.

 

What does it underestimate exactly? It underestimates her knowledge that was both vast enough to concoct a recovery, and intensive regimen for a broken Bats.

 

3 - Opponent nature:

DD has faced mostly urban opponents. The brunt of the hits came from either Kingpin or Bullseye. If you state that DD has faced ‘stronger, fatser, more powerful beings’, you could refer to my point mentioned above in this post. Again bro, lots of ambiguity there.

 

Ex: Cassandra Cain might not be able to beat Lex Luthor in a battle suit, but she might beat Deathstroke one on one.

 

Ex: DD might not be able to take on Hulk, but may be able to trump Cap. In a one on one.

In both cases, while the former opponents, i.e Luthor and Hulk are more powerful, there is no doubt that Cap and Stroke are better fighters.

 

When two skilled fighters meet, it is a different ballgame. Just because DD’s strike might have down a powerhouse like Emma Frost, doesnot mean he will take out Shiva or Cain one on one, because the fight scenario is much different than with a power house.

 

In that regard, you will need to substantiate how DD fared against fighters you have mentioned could be, or are more ‘fighter’ than Shiva.

 

I know this, that while DD had certain out of the box outings with credible fighters, his mainstay opponents are not more than Shiva. In fact, they are much less. Hence, those out of the box outings will help DD’s argument here, depending on what scenario it was, what mindset, backdrop or opponent reality it was. Lets hear it bro, and we can then go from there. Perhaps your instances will be something I am hearing about for the first time, and which will change my opinion of the match.

 

4 – As for the concern that I am taking DD lightly, I am not. I stated clearly this will not be a cakewalk for either fighter. I also stated DD ‘drawing’ logically with Shiva, if there is a re-match at the dojo backdrop. That says that I am not underestimating him.

[Guest force_echo]

Lets all not delude ourselves here brothers.

 

I am taking the encounters as they occur, as listed in that order:

 

1) Random fight: Shiva. DD will be more taken by surprise than anticipated in this one

 

2) (I presume) re-match in a dojo: 

 

Scenario A - In a re-match, in closed quarters, and both fighters knowing the other's capability, I just don't see one winning there. Draw, whichever way you cook it. Reason is simple: DD can get taken down by Shiva once, in the random match, which is not a cakewalk by any means.  Shiva is a better martial artist, which is why she will trump DD's senses in the first match. In the second match, in closed quarters and a terrain limit, Shiva could avert DD's strikes, but he will also both from experience and the unfair radar sense advantage, avert many of her key strikes, if not all. This is strictly if it is a re-match.

 

Scenrio B - Again, if I missed something bluntly, and this is not a re-match, Shiva will win, even harder than she did on open terrain, because the 'rooftop' advantage goes both ways, for both fighters. DD will have an advantage if he has faced off Shiva before. If he hasn't, then his 'inexperience' with her, and that too, in closed quarters will afford her an easier win than on the roof top.

 

As for skill sets. Lets say they were evenly matched, there is one thing that is in Shiva's favour, certain surefire 'killing' strikes, which she can land on DD. She will also figure out quickly he has 'senses', and he is blind. She is devious, whereas he is essentially a good person, in spite of being a kick-ass fighter. Even with his radar sense, she will be ruthless enough to stand out.

 

My take bros. Good debate going though.

 

She's also shown little to no tactical ability, Daredevil has. And noone's still proven to me how Shiva is a better martial artist. Also, Daredevil is the better acrobat, giving him an even greater advantage in the first match. On top of that, he's more experienced, and has the physical edge. He also has the ranged advantage with his clubs. There is literally no way Shiva can win this, Daredevil's got her matched or beat in every way. Even if Shiva has a SLIGHT edge (something which is debatable) in pure skill, it's simply not enough to overcome DD's other advantages.

[baneblade]

She's also shown little to no tactical ability, Daredevil has. And noone's still proven to me how Shiva is a better martial artist. Also, Daredevil is the better acrobat, giving him an even greater advantage in the first match. On top of that, he's more experienced, and has the physical edge. He also has the ranged advantage with his clubs. There is literally no way Shiva can win this, Daredevil's got her matched or beat in every way. Even if Shiva has a SLIGHT edge (something which is debatable) in pure skill, it's simply not enough to overcome DD's other advantages.

Bro she trained Casandra Cain and Bats. If that does not a feat more impressive make, I take it nothing will. As I stated in my posts to bro Baller Ju, that Shiva's level is so high, that most of her feats are shrouded in ambiguity, and only set the bar through her 'passing of the knowledge to supreme fighters', like Bats and Cain.

 

To Cain, she passed the most versatile and unbeatable skill; that of projecting any opponent's moves beforehand, through instant body movement/language.

 

To Bats, who is himself billed as a supreme combatant, she not only fixed him, but 're-invented' him. He relied on her. Not that she is much older, or Sensei-age/level, but her knowledge was so great that he did not think of turning to anyone else.

 

If that does not indicate tactics, or skills, or lets just say 'art'; I do not know what does. Sometimes, it takes 'grander' feats to dwarf 'great' ones. I know we are severely in the dreaded grey area here, but I guess that's the way a debate goes bro.

[Guest sirmethos]

Bro she trained Casandra Cain and Bats. If that does not a feat more impressive make, I take it nothing will. As I stated in my posts to bro Baller Ju, that Shiva's level is so high, that most of her feats are shrouded in ambiguity, and only set the bar through her 'passing of the knowledge to supreme fighters', like Bats and Cain.

 

To Cain, she passed the most versatile and unbeatable skill; that of projecting any opponent's moves beforehand, through instant body movement/language.

 

To Bats, who is himself billed as a supreme combatant, she not only fixed him, but 're-invented' him. He relied on her. Not that she is much older, or Sensei-age/level, but her knowledge was so great that he did not think of turning to anyone else.

 

If that does not indicate tactics, or skills, or lets just say 'art'; I do not know what does. Sometimes, it takes 'grander' feats to dwarf 'great' ones. I know we are severely in the dreaded grey area here, but I guess that's the way a debate goes bro.

Training someone, does not necessarily make you a high-level martial artist.  As the saying goes "those who can't, teach".

Unless of course, you want to argue that Thanos is one of the top martial artists in the entire Marvel universe, since he is the one that trained Gamora.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Good points, guys!

 

Shiva fixing, re inventing, Bats, now, that's impressive. Thought I'd point it out again, same thing happened between Wolverine and Elektra. He turned to her in his times of need. As for Elektra and DD, they tangled together quite a few times. DD proved a match for Wolverine senseï, essentially. Incidentally, he proved a match for Wolverine too (Bigballerju scan), who's widely considered one of Marvel best fighters, the best there is at what he does, all that, and beyond Marvel circles.

 

Come to think of it, there's also this old Miller story, in which Logan and Matt fight alongside. At some point, towards the end, Lord Darwind observe their fighting styles in awe, stating how unique they are, he doesn't actually have a preference.

 

There's also this more recent story featuring a brainwashed Logan fighting for the Hand. DD and Logan fought again, and the outcome certainly does Murdock's talents justice, talents Logan is shown well aware of in said story.

 

DD has a nice pedigree, indeed. I never said he'd win easy, yet I think he can win this. 

 

Goodnight^^

[baneblade]

Training someone, does not necessarily make you a high-level martial artist.  As the saying goes "those who can't, teach".

Unless of course, you want to argue that Thanos is one of the top martial artists in the entire Marvel universe, since he is the one that trained Gamora.

Hey bro Methos. How's it going?  

 

Training does imply skill, certainly, definitely, absolutely. What I was trying to stress was that Shiva was not any (much) older or younger than Bats), nor was she past an age of experience. Yet, she trained them in the same 'categorization' as hers. Martial arts training takes the same vigor, exertions and skills, not just 'knowledge'. Shiva trained Cassandra Cain the shadow movement technique not by just telling her, but by displaying it. She also physically matched blows with Bats, albeit stated to hold back. as she knew he was not in his element then. She demonstrated the killing blow, not just 'taught him on paper' or verse.

 

Had she been an old hag, I might have realistically thought, that while she had the know how, and somehow exerted herself mentally and physically to teach the moves, for those brief periods, she would have dropped in a stretched combat scene. She is however, a master assassin, and a little past her prime, like Bats. If she can stave off folks like Huntress, and Catwoman, while casually standing her feet, and blocking and probing with the same arm, these are not simple indications of skill.

 

That aside, the real argument I guess is, to substantiate Shiva's 'feats' in terms of opponents. I have already mentioned that it is hard to do, as knowingly, DC does not (like any other publisher) utilize 'over the top' elusive bad guys to a fore. However, through scribe statements from story lines, and references as the ones in which she trained some kick ass fighters, and even fought them, have to be derived from. That's they way it has to be. 

 

That aside, I don't see DD trumping Bats or moreover,. teaching, or 're-inventing' him. She did. That shows only one thing: Not only is she an assassin, but gave only a portion of what she knew in a scenario where he, who is himself a master trainer, sought her. It is not hard to do the match there bro.

 

As for your concern of Thanos training Gamorra. Thanos trained her in a vast backdrop. Jim Starlin, a great helmsman of the Marvel 'intergalactic sagas ages', hinted that Thanos training involved Gamora's prime intergalactic H2H combat, not all the extensive martial arts that she knows today. He in a way, both trained her, and facilitated her training. Hence, she learned quite a bit from him, in regards to unconventional H2H combat, but learned a whole lot more from various sources, and even continued to hone her skills on her own after a period of time. Hence bro, Thanos teaching her involves a more vague and wider scenario, than just the two of them training under one roof, and she primarily learning from him.

 

Shiva, Bats, one of the Robins, Batgirl, are a different thing, and situation all together.

[Guest force_echo]

I guarantee you that Michael Phelps' trainer can't beat him in a race.

[baneblade]

Good points, guys!

 

Shiva fixing, re inventing, Bats, now, that's impressive. Thought I'd point it out again, same thing happened between Wolverine and Elektra. He turned to her in his times of need. As for Elektra and DD, they tangled together quite a few times. DD proved a match for Wolverine senseï, essentially. Incidentally, he proved a match for Wolverine too (Bigballerju scan), who's widely considered one of Marvel best fighters, the best there is at what he does, all that, and beyond Marvel circles.

 

Come to think of it, there's also this old Miller story, in which Logan and Matt fight alongside. At some point, towards the end, Lord Darwind observe their fighting styles in awe, stating how unique they are, he doesn't actually have a preference.

 

There's also this more recent story featuring a brainwashed Logan fighting for the Hand. DD and Logan fought again, and the outcome certainly does Murdock's talents justice, talents Logan is shown well aware of in said story.

 

DD has a nice pedigree, indeed. I never said he'd win easy, yet I think he can win this. 

 

Goodnight^^

 

Hey bro Oltobaz.  The grey area that we all tread right now is; are DD and Wolverine better combatants than Bats? Many will tell you no. Many will say yes. It really depends on who you are debating with here bro.

 

Ex: A scribe once called Elektra over rated. One called Bullseye over rated. Another called Bats a mere cheat to win guy instead of just a well meaning honourable fighter. Another called Nightwing underrated. As I said, many will agree, others will not. The real junction at which we stand is, do you consider DD to be a better fighter than Bats? I know this is Shiva vs Bats. Since Shiva's feats are not physically as 'chronicled' as DD's, for apparent reasons that she is not a mainstream character like DD, nor had her own comic, thereby lessening the feats; at least in print, we have to derive from what we have. That of course, involves pulling comparisons with liasons, and fellow fighters and opponents, and that thankfully is a standpoint, you have taken as well.

 

Hence again, do you consider DD better than Cassandra Cain, or Bats. Do you think he would be at par with Bats or Cain in a H2H? I do believe that whatever your reply is, will greatly affect the opinion on the outcome of this match. Ex: Many debate that Ironfist is better than DD. Many say no. What is your take bro? Is DD a better fighter than Bats?

[Guest force_echo]

Bro she trained Casandra Cain and Bats. If that does not a feat more impressive make, I take it nothing will. As I stated in my posts to bro Baller Ju, that Shiva's level is so high, that most of her feats are shrouded in ambiguity, and only set the bar through her 'passing of the knowledge to supreme fighters', like Bats and Cain.

 

To Cain, she passed the most versatile and unbeatable skill; that of projecting any opponent's moves beforehand, through instant body movement/language.

 

To Bats, who is himself billed as a supreme combatant, she not only fixed him, but 're-invented' him. He relied on her. Not that she is much older, or Sensei-age/level, but her knowledge was so great that he did not think of turning to anyone else.

 

If that does not indicate tactics, or skills, or lets just say 'art'; I do not know what does. Sometimes, it takes 'grander' feats to dwarf 'great' ones. I know we are severely in the dreaded grey area here, but I guess that's the way a debate goes bro.

 

Yeah, and that's not an argument whatsoever. Batman's beaten her. So has Cain. Twice. And Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, who literally has an infinite amount of ways to kill someone. No, you are in the gray area because you have nothing concrete that puts Shiva above Daredevil. Training someone does not in any way whatsoever indicate on the fly tactical maneuvering in combat. Also, Cain is undoubtedly better than Shiva at body reading, just because Shiva trained her doesn't mean she's on that level of skill. Like I said, saying that Michael Phelps' trainer can beat Ryan Lochte because he trained Michael Phelps is a stretched argument that simply doesn't work. The student can surpass the teacher, it happens constantly. Also, maybe Daredevil hasn't trained other fighters as much because he simply doesn't want to teach, that doesn't mean he's less skilled than Shiva at all.

[baneblade]

I guarantee you that Michael Phelps' trainer can't beat him in a race.

I wholly agree. Even the guy who trained me to do art, will be surprised at how far I have ventured from what he taught me, in the good way. Swimming bro is a lot different than martial arts. A master can't just sit there and instruct to channel chi (as they opine heavily in Wingtsun), or channel poise and strike down a collection of cinder blocks. He has to do it to demonstrate. If that same master faces off the student, and the student loses, it will be understandable. If the master loses at a certain age, my bet is that it is way past his prime. That is what I was implying, that martial arts training is a different ball game all together, even in comics, to a great degree, if not definitely. 

[Guest Darxeth]

George St. Pierre has trained quite a few people and I'd wager he can beat all of them. Your point?

 

Edit: Bruce Lee trained a few people as well but I'm sure none of them weren't as skilled as him either.

[Guest force_echo]

I wholly agree. Even the guy who trained me to do art, will be surprised at how far I have ventured from what he taught me, in the good way. Swimming bro is a lot different than martial arts. A master can't just sit there and instruct to channel chi (as they opine heavily in Wingtsun), or channel poise and strike down a collection of cinder blocks. He has to do it to demonstrate. If that same master faces off the student, and the student loses, it will be understandable. If the master loses at a certain age, my bet is that it is way past his prime. That is what I was implying, that martial arts training is a different ball game all together, even in comics, to a great degree, if not definitely. 

 

Except it isn't. Like I've said, Cain has beaten Shiva twice. Batman's also beaten her. And Phelps' trainer, even at his prime, couldn't outrace Phelps.

[baneblade]

George St. Pierre has trained quite a few people and I'd wager he can beat all of them. Your point?

 

Edit: Bruce Lee trained a few people as well but I'm sure none of them weren't as skilled as him either.

 

Good point bro. That is what I am trying to tell these bros. Martial arts training, or fighting period does not mean you stand aside and tell a student how to apply a kimura lock. You get into the thick of it and demonstrate. The test really comes during sparring sessions. Our instructor once dropped me in the span of seconds by method I had not foreseen or comprehended. In part it was due to my underestimation of his age and weight. It meant he had those skills, and he implied them to a good degree. In comics, it is not too far off. Shiva has those skills and is to boot, a stated Master assassin. Just trying to re-inforce the point there).

[Guest Darxeth]

George St. Pierre has trained quite a few people and I'd wager he can beat all of them. Your point?

Edit: Bruce Lee trained a few people as well but I'm sure none of them weren't as skilled as him either.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

And I'm pretty sure that Chael Sonnen could have thrashed Kelvin Gastellum.