Lady Shiva vs Daredevil

[baneblade]

Except it isn't. Like I've said, Cain has beaten Shiva twice. Batman's also beaten her. And Phelps' trainer, even at his prime, couldn't outrace Phelps.

That is your grey area bro. As is mine for that matter. You believe it isn't, where as I say it is. If I said to my cousin; lets grapple, and see who can get to apply a rear naked choke first, I would not do it without the skills, or strength.

 

As for Shiva and Cain, fully agree she was beaten. If you check out (if it even exists now) Kelly Pucket's commentary on this, he stated two things: 1) Shiva underestimated Batgirl, in part due to her injury. Call it an excuse for one of the fights. 2) Cassandra Cain's added ability to forgo language for 'body language' gives her an edge over anyone, absolutely anyone at all. It is not something Shiva taught her. David Cain was to figure into as well. Cassandra is the amalgam of two deadly teachers, not one, not to mention Bat's defensive technique. She is one of the few people who are hardest to deal with in H2H. She is better than Shiva. That still does not take away Shiva's skills that I honestly believe trump DD's.

 

As for your point if Phelps trainer couldn't outrace him even in his prime, again bro; swimming is not martial arts. Grey area bro!!.

[Guest Darxeth]

And Anderson Silva has trained a few people, all of which he'd destroy as well.

[baneblade]

And Anderson Silva has trained a few people, all of which he'd destroy as well.

Very good point bro. Again, a point some bros. are not acknowledging. They are looking at a coin, but not flipping it to see the other side.

[Guest force_echo]

George St. Pierre has trained quite a few people and I'd wager he can beat all of them. Your point?

 

Edit: Bruce Lee trained a few people as well but I'm sure none of them weren't as skilled as him either.

 

What about the guy who trained George? The guy who coached Muhammed Ali? The guy who coached Mike Tyson? Etc. etc. etc. Basic logic lesson for you- it only takes one instance of something not being true to invalidate its usefulness. If you say all numbers are divisible by 3 and I find ONE number that isn't, you can't say for sure any other number is divisible by 3.

[Guest force_echo]

That is your grey area bro. As is mine for that matter. You believe it isn't, where as I say it is. If I said to my cousin; lets grapple, and see who can get to apply a rear naked choke first, I would not do it without the skills, or strength.

 

As for Shiva and Cain, fully agree she was beaten. If you check out (if it even exists now) Kelly Pucket's commentary on this, he stated two things: 1) Shiva underestimated Batgirl, in part due to her injury. Call it an excuse for one of the fights. 2) Cassandra Cain's added ability to forgo language for 'body language' gives her an edge over anyone, absolutely anyone at all. It is not something Shiva taught her. David Cain was to figure into as well. Cassandra is the amalgam of two deadly teachers, not one, not to mention Bat's defensive technique. She is one of the few people who are hardest to deal with in H2H. She is better than Shiva. That still does not take away Shiva's skills that I honestly believe trump DD's.

 

As for your point if Phelps trainer couldn't outrace him even in his prime, again bro; swimming is not martial arts. Grey area bro!!.

 

Swimming isn't like martial arts? It's not a "gray area" it's a strawman, unsubstantiated argument that's already disproven not only in the context of the singular situation (Shiva being beaten by the people she "trains") but in any other conceivable example as well. Your argument is that swimming isn't like fighting, I can find a lot of fighters who can also beat their coaches, even at their prime, it wouldn't even be a slight challenge, it's like this in literally everything. Fighting, swimming, other athletics, education, etc. Shiva training Batman and Cain doesn't mean she's more skilled than them, it doesn't even mean she's as skilled, as proven by the fact that her students can beat her in a fight.

[Guest Darxeth]

What about the guy who trained George? The guy who coached Muhammed Ali? The guy who coached Mike Tyson? Etc. etc. etc. Basic logic lesson for you- it only takes one instance of something not being true to invalidate its usefulness. If you say all numbers are divisible by 3 and I find ONE number that isn't, you can't say for sure any other number is divisible by 3.

Generally speaking, you are quite right.

However, Lady Shiva is a great teacher AND one of the best combatants on the planet in her respect universe, the teachers of the people you listed, cannot say the same. Mike Tysons trainer wasn't a world championship caliber fighter, nor was Ali's. However, St. Pierre is and so is Anderson Silva.

[Guest bigballerju]

Daredevil is one of the best combatants on his planet as well. That's the thing here some of us have been saying. He has fought Shiva level fighters in Marvel. Black Panther, Wolverine, and Iron-Fist to name a few. Two of which he fought to a standstill and one (Wolverine) who he defeated. As far as being a teacher. The students a lot of times surpass there masters in comics and films when it comes to certain martial art related characters. Raizo from Ninja Assassin is a good example. 

[Guest Darxeth]

I believe you Bigballer. Daredevil is a badass, but I do not believe he is more skilled than Lady Shiva, although that doesn't mean he would lose to her. I decided to read more about DD and I really enjoy his character along with his abilities.

I'm convinced he'll win the first match, but Shiva has him in the second fight

[The Void]

Batman only beat a mind controlled Shiva. 

[Guest Oltobaz]

Hey bro Oltobaz.  The grey area that we all tread right now is; are DD and Wolverine better combatants than Bats? Many will tell you no. Many will say yes. It really depends on who you are debating with here bro.

 

Ex: A scribe once called Elektra over rated. One called Bullseye over rated. Another called Bats a mere cheat to win guy instead of just a well meaning honourable fighter. Another called Nightwing underrated. As I said, many will agree, others will not. The real junction at which we stand is, do you consider DD to be a better fighter than Bats? I know this is Shiva vs Bats. Since Shiva's feats are not physically as 'chronicled' as DD's, for apparent reasons that she is not a mainstream character like DD, nor had her own comic, thereby lessening the feats; at least in print, we have to derive from what we have. That of course, involves pulling comparisons with liasons, and fellow fighters and opponents, and that thankfully is a standpoint, you have taken as well.

 

Hence again, do you consider DD better than Cassandra Cain, or Bats. Do you think he would be at par with Bats or Cain in a H2H? I do believe that whatever your reply is, will greatly affect the opinion on the outcome of this match. Ex: Many debate that Ironfist is better than DD. Many say no. What is your take bro? Is DD a better fighter than Bats?

I definitely agree, those guys are so skilled, it does come down to personal opinion when it's all said and done. Of course, personal opinion will be valued as long as one can explain where he comes from. Hopefully, I can.

Your main question was, do I think DD is a better fighter than Bats? In my precedent post you commented upon, I've provided examples outlining how DD could be considered on par with Wolverine, who's widely recognized one of the best fighters in comics out there, and I will now compare DD with Bats.

 

The Batman/DD cross over I've mentioned portray them as equals in terms of fighting prowess, though their encounter inadvertently stops without a victor, due to whatever circumstances I can't seem to remember. It's a shame I don't have it with me as of right now, but I can list a couple of feats on top of my head:

 

1/ The fight begins in a sewer, and it's the first time they meet. Bats approaches the fight stealthily, by remaining into the shadows, and quietly jumps down from the ceiling in an attempt to surprise DD. Of course DD is able to notice Bruce's presence thanks to his radar sense, yet, it is said Bruce was able to land quietly, without any sound. It is explained DD's hyper hearing didn't help him target Bats, since Bruce didn't make any sound at all. What do we learn from that?

a/ DD's radar sense negates Bats stealth. Of course.

b/ Still, Batman is so skilled he's able to land on the ground without making any sound, it's not just hyperbole. As a result, DD's hyper hearing proved useless in this instance. Not like he needed it, ultimately.

 

2/ Through mere observation, the World's Best Detective is quickly able to realize DD is actually blind. He doesn't use that info in any way during the fight, yet I suppose he could certainly find a way to exploit that in yet another encounter, as "king of prep" and all.

 

3/ The Man without Fear is shown able to catch two batarangs in mid air, thanks to his Radar sense and superior reflexes.

 

Ok, I've shared with you what was on top of my head, let's indulge in a step by step comparison, if you will:

 

Strength: Not necessarily the main factor at hand here, yet, I'd tend to give that to Batman. Still, it is explained DD's hyper touch alllow him total body control, internal, as well as external, which, at times, allow him to perform peak human strength feats, such as Batman's. Since DD is no slouch in the strength department even in normal circumstances, I'd say he could potentially match, (possibly overcome even) Batman's great strength. Still, a fight between these guys wouldn't let him the leisure to concentrate long enough, so I'll give this edge to Bats, and leave it at that.

 

Speed: They're both extremely quick, but Matt's got the upper hand, by a slight margin. Bats costume is very practical, yet, noticeably heavier than DD's. Of course, Bats greater strength allow him to act and move quickly nonetheless, still, DD's doesn't have to deal with any sort of heavy parapharnelia, and he does strike me as leaner figure. Advantage DD, again by a slight margin.

 

Acrobatics (including parkour techniques):An astute poster mentioned earlier DD was bound to be better than Bats in this department, since he relies solely on acrobatics and billy club to move around, while Batman has access to vehicles. I'd also like to point out DD's hyper sense of balance(on par with Spidey) as another piece of evidence. Batman is very skilled, but DD is the better acrobat.

 

Willpower: Both characters have shown a great degree of willpower throughout the years. Bats may be more popular/well known than DD, still, anyone doubting Murdock's strength of will should start to dig up some comics, possibly Miller's. I'll say they're both as strong willed, and will leave it at that.

 

Intelligence: In the story I mentioned, Bruce is able to figure out DD's blindness. He's the World's Best Detective, king of prep etc.. He has a genius Iq. The evidence is all there, while a very smart fellow himself, Matt isn't as "mentally gifted" as a whole. However, he's certainly an awesome detective himself, with an easier job thanks to his hyper sense, and their fighting tactics seem about equal to me, so I don't think this aspect would play any part, at least not in their initial encounter.

 

Durability: Bats costume integrates kevlar and titanium. Nuff said.

 

Equipment: Bats has more things to rely upon, yet, Matt's hyper senses would negate most of the stuff, and he does have his club, which Batman would counter, eventually. They're even.

 

Fighting techniques: You're right, I suppose it depends on who you ask. A popular icon, no one is gonna ask you to come up with feats outlining Bats techniques, it's almost public knownledge, he's one of the best martial artists out there. I believe they're gonna have that in the Constitution some of these days, " you just don't mess with the Batman, etc". Still, you're right, it depends on who you ask. DD is versed is several different styles, just like Bats. And he's extremely talented, just like Bats. But then, DD's got his hyper senses, this "unfair advantage" a few of us have mentioned before. If we're to go into details, let's just say he's better at reading his opponent and predicting his moves than Batman could ever hope to be. His strikes are more precise. While we're at it, let's acknowledge Bats can't surprise him from behind, while DD potentially could. And let's pay attention to his better sense of balance. It's not just better, it's superhumanly better. Combine that with his superior agility (my acrobatics comparison) slightly greater speed, superior reflexes (Bats is no slouch in this department of course, but DD is superhuman, thanks to his hyper senses), how he's shown equal and or superior to other MU artists (my previous post) and, all of a sudden, you know which way I'm going:

 

DD would win against Batman in a fight.

 

Still, the fight would be very hard, and Bruce being Bruce, he'd pick up some info he'd re use in their next encounter. He'd find out soon enough, as shown in the cross over, that DD is blind. How long would it take then for him to figure out DD's got to rely on something, like a superhuman sense of hearing? (Something he kinda figured out in said story, by the way). A sonic device hidden in his utility belt is all he needs.

 

Bats would win against DD in a second fight. I suppose he'd technically be cheating in a way, but, no matter how you slice it, he's up against a (slightly) enhanced human, so I guess it's only fair, lol.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I definitely agree, those guys are so skilled, it does come down to personal opinion when it's all said and done. Of course, personal opinion will be valued as long as one can explain where he comes from. Hopefully, I can.

Your main question was, do I think DD is a better fighter than Bats? In my precedent post you commented upon, I've provided examples outlining how DD could be considered on par with Wolverine, who's widely recognized one of the best fighters in comics out there, and I will now compare DD with Bats.

 

The Batman/DD cross over I've mentioned portray them as equals in terms of fighting prowess, though their encounter inadvertently stops without a victor, due to whatever circumstances I can't seem to remember. It's a shame I don't have it with me as of right now, but I can list a couple of feats on top of my head:

 

1/ The fight begins in a sewer, and it's the first time they meet. Bats approaches the fight stealthily, by remaining into the shadows, and quietly jumps down from the ceiling in an attempt to surprise DD. Of course DD is able to notice Bruce's presence thanks to his radar sense, yet, it is said Bruce was able to land quietly, without any sound. It is explained DD's hyper hearing didn't help him target Bats, since Bruce didn't make any sound at all. What do we learn from that?

a/ DD's radar sense negates Bats stealth. Of course.

b/ Still, Batman is so skilled he's able to land on the ground without making any sound, it's not just hyperbole. As a result, DD's hyper hearing proved useless in this instance. Not like he needed it, ultimately.

 

2/ Through mere observation, the World's Best Detective is quickly able to realize DD is actually blind. He doesn't use that info in any way during the fight, yet I suppose he could certainly find a way to exploit that in yet another encounter, as "king of prep" and all.

 

3/ The Man without Fear is shown able to catch two batarangs in mid air, thanks to his Radar sense and superior reflexes.

 

Ok, I've shared with you what was on top of my head, let's indulge in a step by step comparison, if you will:

 

Strength: Not necessarily the main factor at hand here, yet, I'd tend to give that to Batman. Still, it is explained DD's hyper touch alllow him total body control, internal, as well as external, which, at times, allow him to perform peak human strength feats, such as Batman's. Since DD is no slouch in the strength department even in normal circumstances, I'd say he could potentially match, (possibly overcome even) Batman's great strength. Still, a fight between these guys wouldn't let him the leisure to concentrate long enough, so I'll give this edge to Bats, and leave it at that.

 

Speed: They're both extremely quick, but Matt's got the upper hand, by a slight margin. Bats costume is very practical, yet, noticeably heavier than DD's. Of course, Bats greater strength allow him to act and move quickly nonetheless, still, DD's doesn't have to deal with any sort of heavy parapharnelia, and he does strike me as leaner figure. Advantage DD, again by a slight margin.

 

Acrobatics (including parkour techniques):An astute poster mentioned earlier DD was bound to be better than Bats in this department, since he relies solely on acrobatics and billy club to move around, while Batman has access to vehicles. I'd also like to point out DD's hyper sense of balance(on par with Spidey) as another piece of evidence. Batman is very skilled, but DD is the better acrobat.

 

Willpower: Both characters have shown a great degree of willpower throughout the years. Bats may be more popular/well known than DD, still, anyone doubting Murdock's strength of will should start to dig up some comics, possibly Miller's. I'll say they're both as strong willed, and will leave it at that.

 

Intelligence: In the story I mentioned, Bruce is able to figure out DD's blindness. He's the World's Best Detective, king of prep etc.. He has a genius Iq. The evidence is all there, while a very smart fellow himself, Matt isn't as "mentally gifted" as a whole. However, he's certainly an awesome detective himself, with an easier job thanks to his hyper sense, and their fighting tactics seem about equal to me, so I don't think this aspect would play any part, at least not in their initial encounter.

 

Durability: Bats costume integrates kevlar and titanium. Nuff said.

 

Equipment: Bats has more things to rely upon, yet, Matt's hyper senses would negate most of the stuff, and he does have his club, which Batman would counter, eventually. They're even.

 

Fighting techniques: You're right, I suppose it depends on who you ask. A popular icon, no one is gonna ask you to come up with feats outlining Bats techniques, it's almost public knownledge, he's one of the best martial artists out there. I believe they're gonna have that in the Constitution some of these days, " you just don't mess with the Batman, etc". Still, you're right, it depends on who you ask. DD is versed is several different styles, just like Bats. And he's extremely talented, just like Bats. But then, DD's got his hyper senses, this "unfair advantage" a few of us have mentioned before. If we're to go into details, let's just say he's better at reading his opponent and predicting his moves than Batman could ever hope to be. His strikes are more precise. While we're at it, let's acknowledge Bats can't surprise him from behind, while DD potentially could. And let's pay attention to his better sense of balance. It's not just better, it's superhumanly better. Combine that with his superior agility (my acrobatics comparison) slightly greater speed, superior reflexes (Bats is no slouch in this department of course, but DD is superhuman, thanks to his hyper senses), how he's shown equal and or superior to other MU artists (my previous post) and, all of a sudden, you know which way I'm going:

 

DD would win against Batman in a fight.

 

Still, the fight would be very hard, and Bruce being Bruce, he'd pick up some info he'd re use in their next encounter. He'd find out soon enough, as shown in the cross over, that DD is blind. How long would it take then for him to figure out DD's got to rely on something, like a superhuman sense of hearing? (Something he kinda figured out in said story, by the way). A sonic device hidden in his utility belt is all he needs.

 

Bats would win against DD in a second fight. I suppose he'd technically be cheating in a way, but, no matter how you slice it, he's up against a (slightly) enhanced human, so I guess it's only fair, lol.

 

Strength: This all sounds very good. Then you start actually looking at feats instead of speculation, and it collapses. As far as I know, Daredevil has no strength feats matching Batman's. We can assume that they are close, since both are near peak human, but it is obvious that Batman is stronger.

 

Speed: Again, it sounds very good, but you can look at the feats. I'm sure I can find speed feats for Batman that equal or outweigh Daredevil's. And that is while he is wearing said heavier costume.

 

Acrobatics: This one sounds about right. I agree with acrobats for the reasons you mentioned.

 

Willpower: Sounds good.

 

Intelligence: Both are very intelligent, obviously Batman is smarter, but in terms of tactics and battle savvy I would give Batman the slightest edge. And I'm not even sure about that one.

 

Durability: Yeah.

 

Equipment: No, they are not even. I don't know how Matt would "negate" his equipment. Sure, it is highly unlikely that Matt would get hit by batarangs, but what about sonic batarangs? Plastique? And then there is equipment like knockout gas. Of course it wouldn't conceal his possession from Daredevil, but it could still, y'know, knock him out.

 

Fighting Technique: Both are incredibly skilled, but considering Batman's superior strength, larger and more diverse arsenal, superior durability, and equal or very possibly better reflexes, you see where I'm going.

 

Batman would win against DD in a fight.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Strength: I'm more than willing to admit Bats is stronger, and already have, yet, Matt's no slouch. You just have to read his comics, and/or his wikia. There's little in the way of speculation, I've only said he could match (something I've actually evidence of) possibly overcome (speculation, I admit, but, it's possible) peak human strength under specific circumstances, then again, I do not think he could count on that in this fight. Batman has the advantage in strength in this fight. Don't let anyone tell you different. But then, strength isn't everything, indeed, we've seen DD overcome/match stronger martial artists than himself in MU, people like Cap, whom we already agreed would ultimately defeat Bats in h2h. 

 

Speed: They're almost even, and it's almost impossible to determine who's faster, up until you realize Bats has one disadvantage, his costume. Even then, the difference is slight, but it's there, though it's only a theory I presume, one that makes sense though. An athlete running around in spandex should be faster than another relying on kevlar and titanium. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, his superhuman reflexes involve higher reaction time.

 

Equipment: We disagree here. As you know, I think Matt senses would negate most of the stuff, he'll be aware of the presence of gas, and, creative as he is, will find a way to prepare himself. For instance, through his hyper sense, he'd actually know when Bats is about to launch knock out gas, and could possibly prevent that by launching his club. It's also worth noting this club comes complete with a telescopic shield (shown early in his career, with some degree of efficacity against... Dr Doom). Throw in his superior reflexes -which stem from his hyper senses- meaning his faster reaction time, and you'll realize Bats gadgets won't be enough. Finally, if DD decides to throw in his club and have it rebounce off the walls through a deadly combination, Bruce will be happy his costume comes with some level of durability. Not saying he can't devise some way to shield himself from that, but it's not gonna be easy either.

 

Fighting techniques: No way Bats reflexes and reaction time are as good as DD's. Though impressive, his reflexes are only human, while DD's are way above that, thanks to his hyper senses. Bats being larger isn't necessarily an advantage either, it can actually be turned against him. His strength, durability and arsenal (which DD can counter to a large degree) will factor in, but, ultimately,I see DD winning this for reasons I've already outlined. Durability, strength, Cap and Wolvie have that in spades, over the years however, it hasn't kept DD to stand his own against them, to say the least.

[baneblade]

Strength: I'm more than willing to admit Bats is stronger, and already have, yet, Matt's no slouch. You just have to read his comics, and/or his wikia. 

 

Speed: They're almost even, and it's almost impossible to determine who's faster, up until you realize Bats has one disadvantage, his costume. Even then, the difference is slight, but it's there, though it's only a theory I presume, one that makes sense though. An athlete running around in spandex should be faster than another relying on kevlar and titanium. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Equipment: We disagree here. As you know, I think Matt senses would negate most of the stuff, he'll be aware of the presence of gas, and, creative as he is, will find a way to prepare himself. For instance, through his hyper sense, he'd actually know when Bats is about to launch knock out gas, and could possibly prevent that by launching his club. It's also worth noting this club comes complete with a telescopic shield (shown early in his career, with some degree of efficacity against... Dr Doom). Throw in his superior reflexes -which stem from his hyper senses- meaning his faster reaction time, and you'll realize Bats gadgets won't be enough. Finally, if DD decides to throw in his club and have it rebounce on the walls through a deadly combination, Bruce will be happy his costume comes with some level of durability. Not saying he can't devise some way to shield himself from that, but it's not gonna be easy either.

 

Fighting techniques: No way Bats reflexes and reaction time are as good as DD's. Though impressive, his reflexes are only humans, while DD's are way above that, thanks to his hyper senses. Bats being larger isn't necessarily an advantage either. His strength, durability and arsenal (which DD can counter to a large degree) will factor in, but, ultimately,I see DD winning this for reasons I've already outlined. Durability, strength, Cap and Wolvie have that in spades, over the years however, it hasn't kept DD to stand his own against them, to say the least.

Hey there bro. Good posts.

I like your style.

Your points, and I decided to go to this post because it is farther along.

I will try to make it concise this time, more bearable in terms of volume and application:

 

1) The one thing that is either not mentioned or mentioned fleetingly in posts is Bats greatest ability: His brain.

Lets say DD is actually a better fighter. Bats is a good fighter. The one thing that DD will never trump is Bats brains (Bat-brains, if you may). Batman's critical thinking is always ON. He thinks 10 steps ahead. Just as you pointed out the possible amendment in the 'constitution', in terms of being bad ass at fighting; I actually nominate his thought process as an amendment more than the bad-assery. I say amend it as 'You can't outhink the Bat'. He lives to think, and even out-thought himself to fight mental manipulation one more than two occasions. I am willing to bet, in perfect comic sense, that if not in a few seconds, than in a minute, he will figure out DD is blind, and is hence moving and throwing down with the aid of heightened senses (ala Clark). He will know a loud noise making something will put him out, push his senses, or hearing to the limit in a hurry. He always has sonar equipment on him. Punisher has done it, albeit with preparation. Bats doing it int he middle of a fight is a no brainer bro. Just re-iterating: Bats is very deadly with the one thing folks quite miss; his power, channel of thought.

 

2) As far as their physical attributes go, I rather go with your rightfully picked out fight. In the cross-over. Many folks will say that it is non-canon. I for one, however, don't turn my head on a properly penned cross-over, and actually even quote from it, because, both publishers' scribes agreed on the outcome/events. Hence, even if you take that pick, and I have read it; bottom line was DRAW. Sadly, draw in the sense that fans on both ends were kept happy, and it was a match left in progress. However, even close to the end of the issue, Bats had deduced DD was blind. This was Bats a long time ago. The Bats we know today is definitely, surely more devious, and experienced in much more than just H2H.  DD, has the aid of his 'radar sense'. However, fighting folks like Superman, Wonderwoman, a handful of Amazons, (who are not only 'powered up enough', but articulate and deadly due to their 'other worldly' fighting techniques, will do that to a man. Bats in one outing actually (almost fully) avoided, and even fought back a creature aping Martian Manhunter's powers up close. Those reflexes bro, are unbeatable. He also landed a critical blow in that he actually smashed a weight plate to pieces on 'Manhunter's' head. That strength feat alone is enough, coupled with reflex and response timing ratio; to trump almost any 'urban' fighter who is slightly enhanced even. True, the creature didnot have DD's prowess in articulated battle. But he had the insane strength, and speed, and to boot, was in extremely closed quarters. If you check out the scribe's comments, you will see that it points out to one fact there, or status quo: Bats is used to rolling like that now, on an upper level than he always did.

 

These arguments were to marginally substantiate Bat's stats in terms of physical ability. Not saying you didn't know them, but just re-iterated.

 

Now, in the actual match at hand. Why did I ask about this? Simply to compare two fighters in terms of liaisons or opponents. DD has fought Bats, lets say to a standstill. Bats has fought Shiva, beaten her once in stupor, and once with Robin's aid. Both instances were 'convoluted'. However, Shiva, in the same line of work, except on the opposite side, has trained Bats. I am only logically making a deduction, that if not above, she is equal to DD in raw fighting ability. If I begun to ask you bro, about how DD would fare against Cassandra Cain, you would have a harder time. I only threw these components into the mix for deduction's sake, and to me, it is easy to deduce, that logically being in the same line of work, Shiva had 'more skills' than Bat; enough to teach him. It s not hard to do the math from there.

 

As I said before, there are too few Shiva feats, leave for major ones as these, that we just have to derive from.

[baneblade]

Swimming isn't like martial arts? It's not a "gray area" it's a strawman, unsubstantiated argument that's already disproven not only in the context of the singular situation (Shiva being beaten by the people she "trains") but in any other conceivable example as well. Your argument is that swimming isn't like fighting, I can find a lot of fighters who can also beat their coaches, even at their prime, it wouldn't even be a slight challenge, it's like this in literally everything. Fighting, swimming, other athletics, education, etc. Shiva training Batman and Cain doesn't mean she's more skilled than them, it doesn't even mean she's as skilled, as proven by the fact that her students can beat her in a fight.

Thanks bro. To address some concerns:

 

1) I would like (if at all possible), to see examples where both student and teacher were in the same line of 'fighting' (ex: Mixed martial arts teacher, or kung fu master, or even Tae Kwon Do or Karate 'competitors' who are also teachers, and were in their active competitive years beaten by their students. I am sure bro, there are no examples. Even if you manage to pick out an example or two; it will be far and in between, and the scales will tilt in one side's favour. To try and say this clearly, when a martial arts teacher, or lets say a brawler, fights actively int he industry, and teaches, there are zero chances that a student and especially a student will trump him.

Bro Darxeth smartly pointed it out, so I am only reiterating and opining. 

 

2) That aside, Bats beat Shiva with Robin's aid once, essentially when Bats had his hands full, and she was blindsided by Robin. She trained him after that encounter. Both were at that point, 'more enhanced, understandably and even in comic terms' with regards to skills and experience. Their other encounter was a Shiva out of her element. In a mind control sluggish situation. All the villains Bats and Superman faced off at the point were like that. It wouldn't be fair to judge a fight like that.

 

As for Cassandra bro, I tried to explain and will do so for the convenience of the post again, as you re-mentioned it: Cassandra Cain is essentially both over Shiva and bats, in their individual elements. She is an amalgam, of many skills, including Shiva's, and has even been unfairly attributed with a shrouded past that has been partly revealed, and with the new 52, will probably never be revealed. The one thing that is standard is, she used what Shiva gave, added a lot more, because of her singular 'body movement shadowing technique' to trump Shiva. Also, the writer himself stated in one of the fights, that seeing Cain injured, led Shiva to underestimate her, and Cain, using her enhanced 'out of this world' pain numbing factor, sucker punched Shiva. It would not be hard to deduce that in all these instances, Shiva didn't drop in a fair conventional H2H. She is not a mainstream character, and yet has the stats that she was not downed fairly and in a straightforward combat situation; leave for the one in which Cassandra Cain fights her nearly to the death.

 

Lets go form there bro.

[C.T.]

Why do you call everyone bro?

[Guest Oltobaz]

Hey Baneblade, well met! You definitely brought up some interesting points.. Let me see:

 

1. Yeah, Bats is smart, he figured out DD's blindness in the crossover, and, given a proper opportunity, he could certainly exploit DD's main weakness, his sensitivity to sound. Whether he'll have said opportunity remains to be seen, will he find something he could use in their surroundings? I'd say it depends on said surroundings. If they fight in, say, Gotham's Tower Records, DD is in big trouble. If they fight in... a sewer, well, we haven't seen Bats coming up with a plan, possibly because there wasn't much he could exploit on the scene. They could also fight in a kitchen (doesnt have to be in Hell), Bats could decide he'll make a ruckus, will that be enough to overcome DD? It might prove useful, it won't win him the fight, though. Were they gonna fight again however, he'll be prepared, and I don't see DD coming out on top in this instance, as you know.

 

2. There's this trend I noticed going on from some time now. Wolverine used to heal fast, he's damn near immortal now, or close enough, despite that Angel of Death issue. Iron Man had Extremis, now he's got a cosmic armor. Dr Doom used to need the Haarazeth to match Strange in terms of magic, turns out we may as welll award him the Sorcerer Supreme mantle these days (maybe he should have won said mantle in the first place instead of Strange). Hulk became powerful enough to defeat/stalemate (whatever floats your boat) FTL/planet bustin'/ crazy lunatic Sentry... and then, there's Batman, and these impressive feats you mentioned. Dc or Marvel, they're all getting amped up. So, what about DD? Hornhead joined the Avengers lately, during the Fear Itself saga. In New Avengers (V2) #16, DD was able to defeat an host of giant Red Skull giant robotic armors, all by himself. Weaponry we learnt from Mr Negative during AVX (specifically in Avengers V4 30) to be more advanced than the US military, like, a whole gen ahead. Considering this is the MU, current gen military there must be more advanced than our own, but, anyways... What happened to Matt? I would have been impressed had I seen him destroy one of these constructions single handedly, but a whole host (about 6 of those, methinks). Yeah, these characters have evolved. Anyways, if we're to look at their conventional stats, DD does have the edge in terms of reflexes and reaction time. Bats got better? DD got better too. Bats may almost be superhuman by now. DD pushed his boundaries too, only his were superhuman to begin with. And, of course, I don't have to mention how dangerous these machines have proven to be during the whole Fear Itself ark.

 

3/ As for Shiva shown to be able to train the Bats, that's certainly impressive, except Bruce is in a whole different ballpark now. Same goes for DD. Shiva, I hope you never stopped mastering techniques yearly. You'll need these.

[Guest sirmethos]

"To try and say this clearly, when a martial arts teacher, or lets say a brawler, fights actively int he industry, and teaches, there are zero chances that a student and especially a student will trump him."

Bullsh*t.

Let's set up an example here.

X is an experienced martial artist, a highly skilled Wing Tsun practitioner, and is actively keeping up his training, as well as regularly participating in tournaments, full-contact sparring matches, etc.

Y is X's student, and trains under him for a good period of time.

After Y stops receiving training from X, the two of them meets up somewhere, and fight.

Now, according to you, based on just that information, you are saying that there is "zero chances" that Y will win the fight.

Problem is, that you haven't accounted for natural talent, motivation, mind-set, luck/chance, and half a dozen other things that factor into the outcome of the match.

[baneblade]

"To try and say this clearly, when a martial arts teacher, or lets say a brawler, fights actively int he industry, and teaches, there are zero chances that a student and especially a student will trump him."

Bullsh*t.

Let's set up an example here.

X is an experienced martial artist, a highly skilled Wing Tsun practitioner, and is actively keeping up his training, as well as regularly participating in tournaments, full-contact sparring matches, etc.

Y is X's student, and trains under him for a good period of time.

After Y stops receiving training from X, the two of them meets up somewhere, and fight.

Now, according to you, based on just that information, you are saying that there is "zero chances" that Y will win the fight.

Problem is, that you haven't accounted for natural talent, motivation, mind-set, luck/chance, and half a dozen other things that factor into the outcome of the match.

I like thy straightforward style, oh Sirmethos.

I have accounted for everything good bro, as possibly as my limited understanding will allow. More than anything, I would like to go into the grey open range and 'improvise' on debates and throw in all possible factors than a humanoid being (human or alien) can go through in their specific spheres of existence. Not too many have welcomed that approach kindly I' say. However, what I said perhaps needs to be streamlined. In that, perhaps I need to correct myself.

 

'Zero chances' would imply in the same line: I implied same consequences, same tourneys, same element in as much entirety as possible. It simply meant: same teacher. Not 'break out, learn more combinations from elsewhere, improvise, learn more, become tougher on one's own'. That bro, would of course, be a different ball game. I only and only spoke about the definitive area that Darxeth pointed out: If St. Pierre trained students, who primarily had him as a teacher, and are training in that same element, and are competing in the same tourney, my logical take is, and in fact it is that way; they will lose.

 

If a student broke off from that 'reality', got a different teacher now, and went other ways in training, he would of course rack up more knowledge, in what capacity and become more. Ala Cassandra Cain. Not Bats. The last real teacher Bats had was Shiva. Not the League even, who he merely used to uncover inner demons on a psychological level.

 

In other words good bro, I agree with you. What you said is 100% true. But what I am saying is true as well.

 

In a capsule again sir, if X trained Y, and they remain in those circles, train with each other even, there are zero chances logically for Y to trump X; it would only become applicable if X taught Y everything. But that will be an out of the box, wild assumption.

 

If X trained Y, and Y then went a different path; right from there the scenario becomes open to every possibility. I wouldn't discount X entirely in a fight down the road, but I wouldn't give X a definitive edge either. Y would have a possibility in winning.

 

I hope that clarifies a few things.

[baneblade]

Hey Baneblade, well met! You definitely brought up some interesting points.. Let me see:

 

1. Yeah, Bats is smart, he figured out DD's blindness in the crossover, and, given a proper opportunity, he could certainly exploit DD's main weakness, his sensitivity to sound. Whether he'll have said opportunity remains to be seen, will he find something he could use in their surroundings? I'd say it depends on said surroundings. If they fight in, say, Gotham's Tower Records, DD is in big trouble. If they fight in... a sewer, well, we haven't seen Bats coming up with a plan, possibly because there wasn't much he could exploit on the scene. They could also fight in a kitchen (doesnt have to be in Hell), Bats could decide he'll make a ruckus, will that be enough to overcome DD? It might prove useful, it won't win him the fight, though. Were they gonna fight again however, he'll be prepared, and I don't see DD coming out on top in this instance, as you know.

 

2. There's this trend I noticed going on from some time now. Wolverine used to heal fast, he's damn near immortal now, or close enough, despite that Angel of Death issue. Iron Man had Extremis, now he's got a cosmic armor. Dr Doom used to need the Haarazeth to match Strange in terms of magic, turns out we may as welll award him the Sorcerer Supreme mantle these days (maybe he should have won him in the first place instead of Strange). Hulk became powerful enough to defeat/stalemate (whatever floats your boat) FTL/planet bustin'/ crazy lunatic Sentry... and then, there's Batman, and these impressive feats you mentioned. Dc or Marvel, they're all getting amped up. And, what of DD? Hornhead joined the Avengers lately, during the Fear Itself saga. In New Avengers (V2) #16, DD was able to defeat an host of giant Red Skull *uncreative* giant robotic armors, all by himself. Weaponry we learnt from Mr Negative during AVX (specifically in Avengers V4 30) to be more advanced than the US military, like, a whole gen ahead. Considering this is the MU, current gen military there must be advance than our own, but, anyways, What happened to Matt? I would have been impressed had I seen him defeat one of these constructions single handedly, but a whole host (about 6 of these methinks). Yeah, these characters have involved. Anyways, if we're to look at their conventional stats, DD does have the edge in terms of reflexes and reaction time. Bats got better? DD got better too. Bats may almost be superhuman by now. DD is pushed his boundaries too, only his were superhuman to begin with. And, of course, I don't have to mention how dangerous these machines have proven during the whole Fear Itself ark.

 

3/ As for Shiva shown able to train the Bats, that's certainly impressive, except Bruce is in a whole different ballpark now. Same goes for DD. Shiva, I hope you never stopped mastering techniques yearly. You'll need these.

Good debating my bro. Good solid debating.

I believe we are narrowing to some junction, if not a definitive result.

In your able statements, I picked the one that is the 'extract' of the lot: Comes down to whether Shiva is continuously improvising, training as well. In that, I will say, we will not know for sure, what with the new 52 discarding the old 'guard', but a conjecture has to be made there no? The conjecture would of course, be in line with the character's history, habits etc. I say she will be tougher: she fights to live- check, she was tougher in that some folks who gave Bats a 'sort of headache' fell to her almost casually - check, she knew all of what Bats was, leaving the psychological part and tailor made a routine for his recovery and training-check.  With those stats I would go to the bank with the assumption she will be tougher, by leagues.

 

Alas, it has to be an assumption, in the absence of current story or feats, and one that of course opens the 'grey doors' bro. In any case, good debate going.

[baneblade]

Why do you call everyone bro?

Its a 'bad habit', embedded in me. Gives a sense of familiarity, respect, something like that. Its always on my tongue even when I converse casually with folks. By the by I still remember those funny bro-variations of names you brought up a while ago. In any case, Hope you don't mind my using it.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Good debating my bro. Good solid debating.

I believe we are narrowing to some junction, if not a definitive result.

In your able statements, I picked the one that is the 'extract' of the lot: Comes down to whether Shiva is continuously improvising, training as well. In that, I will say, we will not know for sure, what with the new 52 discarding the old 'guard', but a conjecture has to be made there no? The conjecture would of course, be in line with the character's history, habits etc. I say she will be tougher: she fights to live- check, she was tougher in that some folks who gave Bats a 'sort of headache' fell to her almost casually - check, she knew all of what Bats was, leaving the psychological part and tailor made a routine for his recovery and training-check.  With those stats I would go to the bank with the assumption she will be tougher, by leagues.

 

Alas, it has to be an assumption, in the absence of current story or feats, and one that of course opens the 'grey doors' bro. In any case, good debate going.

 

Anytime man, awesome debate, that's for sure. 

[C.T.]

Its a 'bad habit', embedded in me. Gives a sense of familiarity, respect, something like that. Its always on my tongue even when I converse casually with folks. By the by I still remember those funny bro-variations of names you brought up a while ago. In any case, Hope you don't mind my using it.

Well everyone has a tic.

[baneblade]

Well everyone has a tic.

Agree 100% bro. Could be a tic right here. Part of my conscious though, intends to say it as a natural thing, well meaning tho. The mind is a slippery beast.

[Guest force_echo]

Thanks bro. To address some concerns:

 

1) I would like (if at all possible), to see examples where both student and teacher were in the same line of 'fighting' (ex: Mixed martial arts teacher, or kung fu master, or even Tae Kwon Do or Karate 'competitors' who are also teachers, and were in their active competitive years beaten by their students. I am sure bro, there are no examples. Even if you manage to pick out an example or two; it will be far and in between, and the scales will tilt in one side's favour. To try and say this clearly, when a martial arts teacher, or lets say a brawler, fights actively int he industry, and teaches, there are zero chances that a student and especially a student will trump him.

Bro Darxeth smartly pointed it out, so I am only reiterating and opining. 

 

2) That aside, Bats beat Shiva with Robin's aid once, essentially when Bats had his hands full, and she was blindsided by Robin. She trained him after that encounter. Both were at that point, 'more enhanced, understandably and even in comic terms' with regards to skills and experience. Their other encounter was a Shiva out of her element. In a mind control sluggish situation. All the villains Bats and Superman faced off at the point were like that. It wouldn't be fair to judge a fight like that.

 

As for Cassandra bro, I tried to explain and will do so for the convenience of the post again, as you re-mentioned it: Cassandra Cain is essentially both over Shiva and bats, in their individual elements. She is an amalgam, of many skills, including Shiva's, and has even been unfairly attributed with a shrouded past that has been partly revealed, and with the new 52, will probably never be revealed. The one thing that is standard is, she used what Shiva gave, added a lot more, because of her singular 'body movement shadowing technique' to trump Shiva. Also, the writer himself stated in one of the fights, that seeing Cain injured, led Shiva to underestimate her, and Cain, using her enhanced 'out of this world' pain numbing factor, sucker punched Shiva. It would not be hard to deduce that in all these instances, Shiva didn't drop in a fair conventional H2H. She is not a mainstream character, and yet has the stats that she was not downed fairly and in a straightforward combat situation; leave for the one in which Cassandra Cain fights her nearly to the death.

 

Lets go form there bro.

 

1. I already have. Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, Mayweather, Pacquiao, etc. etc. That's in boxing. In Taekwondo, Steven Lopez. The student surpasses the teacher CONSTANTLY. Not only does it happen, it's commonplace. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on this point.  

 

2. It is completely fair, since, as far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that her fighting abilities were impaired at that moment in time, you're completely making up the "sluggish" part.

 

3. You brought up a counterexample of your own point. You don't have to be able to better at fighting than someone to train them, you could just have one instance of something they know. Guy A is a novice in martial art A. Guy B is a world master in martial art B. Guy A can train Guy B in martial art A. Guy B can still beat the shit out of Guy A regardless.

 

Also, you just said that Lady Shiva equals DD in raw fighting ability. Even if that's true, DD has the tactical advantage, physical advantage, equipment advantage, and the range advantage, still making it a hard win in favor of Daredevil.

[Guest sirmethos]

"in other words good bro, I agree with you. What you said is 100% true. But what I am saying is true as well.

 

In a capsule again sir, if X trained Y, and they remain in those circles, train with each other even, there are zero chances logically for Y to trump X; it would only become applicable if X taught Y everything. But that will be an out of the box, wild assumption."

 

Again, incorrect.

Even if "they remain in those circles", training with each other every day, there are still several factors, in an all-out fight, that you haven't accounted for.

Mind-set, Luck/chance, Motivation, and several other things.

Even if Y does not go out, and learn from anywhere else, the very fact that he is a sentient human being, still means that he is capable of using the things taught to him by X, in ways that X may not have foreseen/anticipated.  Not to mention the above mentioned factors.