Lady Shiva vs Daredevil

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Oltobaz, not much time now, but we can't assume speed is the same. We can see that Batman has better feats than Daredevil. As for reflexes, DD's senses do not enhance reflexes. They increase balance and greatly increase environmental awareness.

[Guest force_echo]

DD's senses allow him to anticipate attacks, so yes, they do decrease his effective reaction time. And Batman most certainly does not have better reflex feats than Daredevil.

[Guest Oltobaz]

Agreed (of course). To Thanos is Awesome (yes he is): As far as their actual physical speed, Bats is fast,and same goes for DD. They both have plenty of feats in that field. Only thing is, DD is running around in spandex, which is way lighter than Bats gear. He's leaner. Matt is a little quicker (by a slight margin). Now, if you factor in his superhuman reflexes/reaction time... Matt really is quicker.

[baneblade]

1. I already have. Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, Mayweather, Pacquiao, etc. etc. That's in boxing. In Taekwondo, Steven Lopez. The student surpasses the teacher CONSTANTLY. Not only does it happen, it's commonplace. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on this point.  

 

2. It is completely fair, since, as far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that her fighting abilities were impaired at that moment in time, you're completely making up the "sluggish" part.

 

3. You brought up a counterexample of your own point. You don't have to be able to better at fighting than someone to train them, you could just have one instance of something they know. Guy A is a novice in martial art A. Guy B is a world master in martial art B. Guy A can train Guy B in martial art A. Guy B can still beat the shit out of Guy A regardless.

 

Also, you just said that Lady Shiva equals DD in raw fighting ability. Even if that's true, DD has the tactical advantage, physical advantage, equipment advantage, and the range advantage, still making it a hard win in favor of Daredevil.

Ok bro.

 

1. I already have. Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, Mayweather, Pacquiao, etc. etc. That's in boxing. In Taekwondo, Steven Lopez. The student surpasses the teacher CONSTANTLY. Not only does it happen, it's commonplace. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on this point.

 

All of these references in my opinion, are not the examples I am looking for.

Ex: (These I have tried to and am sure upto a degree were the mainstay trainers in the sportsmen careers, that you have given examples of)

Cus D’Amatto, Kevin Rooney, Archie Moore, Angelo Dundee, Chuck Bodak: all past prime age of boxing. In a unique case, only 1 trainer actually faced his 'disciple', when Moore faced Ali. Again, re-stating that Moore was way past his prime, and not the ideal' trainer for Ali since I know Ali disliked him and never really regarded his training/principles.

 

As for Lopez, did his dad ever compete anywhere even?

 

Roger Mayweather or Flyod Sr., again out of their element, past their primes, or never even in a real ring at that competitive level.

 

Freddy Roach must be in his early 50s by now, if not his late 40s. Again, past prime, and never at that competitive level.

 

Bro, Shiva's example is not the same. At least this is the way I see it. She is in the same prime/circle, and moreover on the opposite side of the mix. She is a professional/voluntary assassin. She is not past her prime, or done with, or been there.

 

2. It is completely fair, since, as far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that her fighting abilities were impaired at that moment in time, you're completely making up the "sluggish" part.

 

That is the way you look at it, and I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Grey area.

 

3. You brought up a counterexample of your own point. You don't have to be able to better at fighting than someone to train them, you could just have one instance of something they know. Guy A is a novice in martial art A. Guy B is a world master in martial art B. Guy A can train Guy B in martial art A. Guy B can still beat the shit out of Guy A regardless.

 

If Guy B is a Master, he would have to suck really bad for a 'lesser' A to train him. In which case, the case will be moot. That is just not logical. It is like a street body builder telling Arnold in his prime on what to do to get to the next level. Again, Shiva just didn't train Bats,   she trained him while being his equal or better. Not his inferior. She is an assassin, he is an advocate of law. For him to seek an active combatant on the 'other' side would mean serious skills, skills which she routinely implies, not like any of the folks you listed in their last ebb.

 

Also, you just said that Lady Shiva equals DD in raw fighting ability. Even if that's true, DD has the tactical advantage, physical advantage, equipment advantage, and the range advantage, still making it a hard win in favor of Daredevil.

 

I agree on DD's 'advantages' leave for tactical, or physical. Those bro are subjective and will probably tilt one way or another, depending on how this debate progresses eh?

[Guest thanosisawesome]

DD's senses allow him to anticipate attacks, so yes, they do decrease his effective reaction time. And Batman most certainly does not have better reflex feats than Daredevil.

 

Please provide your best Daredevil feat, and I'll top it. And to Oltobaz, you can assume they are at most equal in speed, since Batman has similar feats while in costume. Secondly, DD does not have enhanced reflexes.

[baneblade]

"in other words good bro, I agree with you. What you said is 100% true. But what I am saying is true as well.

 

In a capsule again sir, if X trained Y, and they remain in those circles, train with each other even, there are zero chances logically for Y to trump X; it would only become applicable if X taught Y everything. But that will be an out of the box, wild assumption."

 

Again, incorrect.

Even if "they remain in those circles", training with each other every day, there are still several factors, in an all-out fight, that you haven't accounted for.

Mind-set, Luck/chance, Motivation, and several other things.

Even if Y does not go out, and learn from anywhere else, the very fact that he is a sentient human being, still means that he is capable of using the things taught to him by X, in ways that X may not have foreseen/anticipated.  Not to mention the above mentioned factors.

I get what you are saying bro, but perhaps you and I are just taking a different angle here. Your statement (part of it)

 

he is a sentient human being, still means that he is capable of using the things taught to him by X, in ways that X may not have foreseen/anticipated

 

is true, and universally applicable, but not the chosen path in a debate, at least for me.

 

That would mean for me, that an able fighter like Damian, or Tim Drake, both of who have sprung surprises for Batman in terms of their abilities and mindset, could take out just about anyone. If they face off DD or Ironfist, being human, and comprised of a battle to die mindset, they could win. Why, because realistically then, such factors work both for and against, since, collectively they are composed of the physical and mental balance that could alter now and then. The bottom line in such a realistic, very possible assumption is COULD.

 

I for one, bro (and I know you can't either as I have seen you debate) use that logic in an argument. It is opening the possibility field too much in a forum like this, where folks are trying to cut a line between feats and assumptions/derivations.

 

That is why I went along a logical line: comprising stats and feats, and especially in this forum: One who trains another who is lesser in terms of experience, knowledge, skill  has no chance to beat the trainer, if the trainer and him exist in the same circle. Throw in the factors you mentioned, and it becomes a new ballgame, at least to me bro.

 

Sorry if this sounds convoluted bro, but I am just trying to keep up here.

[Guest Darxeth]

 

1. I already have. Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, Mayweather, Pacquiao, etc. etc. That's in boxing. In Taekwondo, Steven Lopez. The student surpasses the teacher CONSTANTLY. 

 

 

 

 

Generally speaking, you are quite right.

However, Lady Shiva is a great teacher AND one of the best combatants on the planet in her respect universe, the teachers of the people you listed, cannot say the same. Mike Tysons trainer wasn't a world championship caliber fighter, nor was Ali's. However, St. Pierre is and so is Anderson Silva.

[Guest sirmethos]

I get what you are saying bro, but perhaps you and I are just taking a different angle here. Your statement (part of it)

 

he is a sentient human being, still means that he is capable of using the things taught to him by X, in ways that X may not have foreseen/anticipated

 

is true, and universally applicable, but not the chosen path in a debate, at least for me.

 

That would mean for me, that an able fighter like Damian, or Tim Drake, both of who have sprung surprises for Batman in terms of their abilities and mindset, could take out just about anyone. If they face off DD or Ironfist, being human, and comprised of a battle to die mindset, they could win. Why, because realistically then, such factors work both for and against, since, collectively they are composed of the physical and mental balance that could alter now and then. The bottom line in such a realistic, very possible assumption is COULD.

 

I for one, bro (and I know you can't either as I have seen you debate) use that logic in an argument. It is opening the possibility field too much in a forum like this, where folks are trying to cut a line between feats and assumptions/derivations.

 

That is why I went along a logical line: comprising stats and feats, and especially in this forum: One who trains another who is lesser in terms of experience, knowledge, skill  has no chance to beat the trainer, if the trainer and him exist in the same circle. Throw in the factors you mentioned, and it becomes a new ballgame, at least to me bro.

 

Sorry if this sounds convoluted bro, but I am just trying to keep up here.

 

There is two major problems with your argument here.

1.  "That is why I went along a logical line: comprising stats and feats, and especially in this forum: One who trains another who is lesser in terms of experience, knowledge, skill  has no chance to beat the trainer, if the trainer and him exist in the same circle."

 

That's nice. But by allowing others to bring up real-life comparisons(bruce lee's trainer, muhammed ali's trainer, etc. etc.), and not straight up dismissing them, by pointing out that those do not compare, due to the countless additional factors, you have already opened the door for allowing those factors into the debate.  Which essentially shoots down your entire argument.

 

2. "That would mean for me, that an able fighter like Damian, or Tim Drake, both of who have sprung surprises for Batman in terms of their abilities and mindset, could take out just about anyone."

 

Well, I would say it's partially true, but it really isn't.  For Damien or Tim, to be able to "beat just about anyone", by adding the factor of a sentient mind(which they already have), you would have to remove that same factor, from any opponent you put them up against.  Which is just plain stupid.

Even without factoring in, things like Chance/luck, etc.  you still have to factor in Motivation, Mindset, and half a dozen other things.

If Batman and Nightwing are fighting, it is not 100% certain that either of them will win.  One of them may be more motivated towards winning than the other, which would give that person an advantage.  They also have different physiques, which gives both of them some advantages, Nightwing is far more agile, for example, while Batman is stronger.  Nightwing is also a better improviser and tactician, while Batman is by far the better strategist, and the more intelligent of the two.

My point here is, that your "method", of sticking to "stats and feats", is simply not feasible, when trying to determine who would be the actual winner, in any given fight.  Simply because there are so many additional factors , that has to be taken into account.

[Guest skadoosh]

Sirmethos has even stated DD isn't as skilled as Batman

 

Firstly, you should let the man speak for himself, and secondly, don't bring up something one person has said like it's the do all end all of an argument.

 

snip

 

Nice scans. Daredevil's abilities and skills are seriously impressive, and he has more of a chance in this fight than many seem to think.

[baneblade]

There is two major problems with your argument here.

1.  "That is why I went along a logical line: comprising stats and feats, and especially in this forum: One who trains another who is lesser in terms of experience, knowledge, skill  has no chance to beat the trainer, if the trainer and him exist in the same circle."

 

That's nice. But by allowing others to bring up real-life comparisons(bruce lee's trainer, muhammed ali's trainer, etc. etc.), and not straight up dismissing them, by pointing out that those do not compare, due to the countless additional factors, you have already opened the door for allowing those factors into the debate.  Which essentially shoots down your entire argument.

 

2. "That would mean for me, that an able fighter like Damian, or Tim Drake, both of who have sprung surprises for Batman in terms of their abilities and mindset, could take out just about anyone."

 

Well, I would say it's partially true, but it really isn't.  For Damien or Tim, to be able to "beat just about anyone", by adding the factor of a sentient mind(which they already have), you would have to remove that same factor, from any opponent you put them up against.  Which is just plain stupid.

Even without factoring in, things like Chance/luck, etc.  you still have to factor in Motivation, Mindset, and half a dozen other things.

If Batman and Nightwing are fighting, it is not 100% certain that either of them will win.  One of them may be more motivated towards winning than the other, which would give that person an advantage.  They also have different physiques, which gives both of them some advantages, Nightwing is far more agile, for example, while Batman is stronger.  Nightwing is also a better improviser and tactician, while Batman is by far the better strategist, and the more intelligent of the two.

My point here is, that your "method", of sticking to "stats and feats", is simply not feasible, when trying to determine who would be the actual winner, in any given fight.  Simply because there are so many additional factors , that has to be taken into account.

Well, I would say it's partially true, but it really isn't.  For Damien or Tim, to be able to "beat just about anyone", by adding the factor of a sentient mind(which they already have), you would have to remove that same factor, from any opponent you put them up against.  Which is just plain stupid.

Even without factoring in, things like Chance/luck, etc.  you still have to factor in Motivation, Mindset, and half a dozen other things.

If Batman and Nightwing are fighting, it is not 100% certain that either of them will win.  One of them may be more motivated towards winning than the other, which would give that person an advantage.  They also have different physiques, which gives both of them some advantages, Nightwing is far more agile, for example, while Batman is stronger.  Nightwing is also a better improviser and tactician, while Batman is by far the better strategist, and the more intelligent of the two.

My point here is, that your "method", of sticking to "stats and feats", is simply not feasible, when trying to determine who would be the actual winner, in any given fight.  Simply because there are so many additional factors , that has to be taken into account.

 

I agree with the factors you mention there, and accept the implications. I already said what you just stated here: The factors go both ways, whether negated or added. Which only means you just can’t introduce them just because they could be, or can be. The question in our debates is thereby streamlined: should they be, can they be, in that particular match, or in this particular case, or for that particular character. On the same grounds, you just can’t dismiss a character’s standing by implying same factors out of nowhere, just because realistically they can be there, but for the betterment of the debate, to arrive at a result, are excluded. It is the logical way to go bro. Which brings us to your next point.

 

That's nice. But by allowing others to bring up real-life comparisons(bruce lee's trainer, muhammed ali's trainer, etc. etc.), and not straight up dismissing them, by pointing out that those do not compare, due to the countless additional factors, you have already opened the door for allowing those factors into the debate.  Which essentially shoots down your entire argument.

 

I never ‘allowed’ others bro. They just brought it up, and if I didn’t develop your stated train of thought and didn’t dismiss them in my way, and instead addressed them in another way, does not mean that those factors still ‘apply’. If you read my post regarding the trainers of those fighters you just mentioned, you will see my point. Even in real life, there are no wild degree of deviation from certain limits, even given the fallibilities and external factors working a mindset. Go ahead, again, as I asked good bro Force, I ask you; cite an example, where the trainer got beat by the student, except the example has to resemble Shiva and Bats: Trainer and student in same element, same sphere of existence, both in their primes, both in the same competitive ring, or space. Give me an example bro, and I promise you I will concede. I am not the sort to reinforce a point if I don’t believe in it. I know you don’t too. The prefect example so far has been repeatedly forced by Darxeth, who pointed out the most similar cases: St. Pierre being in his prime and training students, who are in their prime. The chances of a student winning are none if he steps into the ring with St. Pierre. Now, if you say, Pierre was distressed, then bro, as I pointed out in other posts, it is a whole new ball game. It is not St. Pierre at 100%. It is a singular, out of the box situation. Now you may still not see it that way, but I definitely do. The only exception to the outcome will be, after a few years, in which the student improvises, and expands his threshold in various ways, in which case to me, the settings are not parallel anymore. It becomes a vast, wider area of consideration.

[Guest Darxeth]

Firstly, you should let the man speak for himself, and secondly, don't bring up something one person has said like it's the do all end all of an argument.

 

 

Nice scans. Daredevil's abilities and skills are seriously impressive, and he has more of a chance in this fight than many seem to think.

 

Firstly, I don't care what you think I should do.

Secondly: I did, I posted a link of what he said on the matter (As to who is more skilled in h2h combat between DD and Batman), so yes, I did let him speak for himself.

 

And I never implied it was the end all of a debate.

I just shared someone else's opinion; someone who's opinion is usually held in high regard.

If you have a problem with that, that's too bad.

I'm not here to blow sunshine up your doodyhole.

 

[C.T.]

That's like totally uncool, bro. Yeah bro Darxeth bro, you went like way over the line dude. No kidding bro.

[Guest Darxeth]

Heh. He knows I'm kidding.

[baneblade]

That's like totally uncool, bro. Yeah bro Darxeth bro, you went like way over the line dude. No kidding bro.

Nova bro, I likes ya like the bro you are.

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Bro? I consider you all my sisses.

[Guest skadoosh]

Firstly, I don't care what you think I should do.

Secondly: I did, I posted a link of what he said on the matter (As to who is more skilled in h2h combat between DD and Batman), so yes, I did let him speak for himself.

 

And I never implied it was the end all of a debate.

I just shared someone else's opinion; someone who's opinion is usually held in high regard.

If you have a problem with that, that's too bad.

I'm not here to blow sunshine up your doodyhole.

 

 

JESUS CHRIST CALM DOWN I DON'T CARE THAT MUCH. It's just comics, dude.

 

And now seriously, i didn't see the link you posted to what he said, but i did feel like you were implying that one man's opinion was simply superior to others, despite the decent arguments against it, but i'm sure you weren't trying to insult anyone.

 

Also, again seriously, Daredevil wins.

[Guest Darxeth]

Lol I was joking guy.

 

Seriously, I think DD wins the first one and Shiva wins the second one.

[Guest force_echo]

Ok bro.

 

1. I already have. Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, Mayweather, Pacquiao, etc. etc. That's in boxing. In Taekwondo, Steven Lopez. The student surpasses the teacher CONSTANTLY. Not only does it happen, it's commonplace. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on this point.

 

All of these references in my opinion, are not the examples I am looking for.

Ex: (These I have tried to and am sure upto a degree were the mainstay trainers in the sportsmen careers, that you have given examples of)

Cus D’Amatto, Kevin Rooney, Archie Moore, Angelo Dundee, Chuck Bodak: all past prime age of boxing. In a unique case, only 1 trainer actually faced his 'disciple', when Moore faced Ali. Again, re-stating that Moore was way past his prime, and not the ideal' trainer for Ali since I know Ali disliked him and never really regarded his training/principles.

 

As for Lopez, did his dad ever compete anywhere even?

 

Roger Mayweather or Flyod Sr., again out of their element, past their primes, or never even in a real ring at that competitive level.

 

Freddy Roach must be in his early 50s by now, if not his late 40s. Again, past prime, and never at that competitive level.

 

Bro, Shiva's example is not the same. At least this is the way I see it. She is in the same prime/circle, and moreover on the opposite side of the mix. She is a professional/voluntary assassin. She is not past her prime, or done with, or been there.

 

2. It is completely fair, since, as far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that her fighting abilities were impaired at that moment in time, you're completely making up the "sluggish" part.

 

That is the way you look at it, and I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Grey area.

 

3. You brought up a counterexample of your own point. You don't have to be able to better at fighting than someone to train them, you could just have one instance of something they know. Guy A is a novice in martial art A. Guy B is a world master in martial art B. Guy A can train Guy B in martial art A. Guy B can still beat the shit out of Guy A regardless.

 

If Guy B is a Master, he would have to suck really bad for a 'lesser' A to train him. In which case, the case will be moot. That is just not logical. It is like a street body builder telling Arnold in his prime on what to do to get to the next level. Again, Shiva just didn't train Bats,   she trained him while being his equal or better. Not his inferior. She is an assassin, he is an advocate of law. For him to seek an active combatant on the 'other' side would mean serious skills, skills which she routinely implies, not like any of the folks you listed in their last ebb.

 

Also, you just said that Lady Shiva equals DD in raw fighting ability. Even if that's true, DD has the tactical advantage, physical advantage, equipment advantage, and the range advantage, still making it a hard win in favor of Daredevil.

 

I agree on DD's 'advantages' leave for tactical, or physical. Those bro are subjective and will probably tilt one way or another, depending on how this debate progresses eh?

 

1. It doesn't matter, they were better than their coaches at their prime too, indisputably. They were never at that competitive level because they weren't that good, simple as that.

 

2. It is completely logical because they operate in different martial arts. This is a fairly simple concept, it's called specialization. If person A is average at one thing, and person B is a world master at another, person A can still train person B because they OPERATE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS. And no, it is nothing like your example at all, bodybuilding is just bodybuilding, it's not a skilled activity that has any differentiation. And you're wrong again. Batman might be seeking her because she's DIFFERENT, not better. As shown, he still has the capability to beat Lady Shiva, so it's fairly obvious that she's not better.

 

Daredevil has better speed, strength, and acrobatic ability than Lady Shiva. He is also undoubtedly smarter and tactically minded. Lady Shiva has shown little to no tactical ability ever, in fact, I would say she has a habit of being tricked. He also has the experience advantage, which is a huge factor I neglected to mention in the previous post.

[Guest force_echo]

Please provide your best Daredevil feat, and I'll top it. And to Oltobaz, you can assume they are at most equal in speed, since Batman has similar feats while in costume. Secondly, DD does not have enhanced reflexes.

 

Provide your best Batman feat, and I'll top it. And yes, Daredevil has an effectively enhanced reaction time due to his ability to predict movements, for the second time.

[Guest Darxeth]

When, exactly, did Batman defeat Shiva in her right mind?

[Guest force_echo]

When, exactly, did Batman defeat Shiva in her right mind?

 

Batman beat a mind controlled Shiva, and since no one has ever provided any evidence that her fighting abilities were impaired in any way during that fight, the feat stands. It's not like they've fought that much to begin with. Lady Shiva's beat Batman... what? Once? Maybe? They stalemated once, in fact, I'm not sure if Lady Shiva has ever conclusively beaten Batman. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame.

[baneblade]

1. It doesn't matter, they were better than their coaches at their prime too, indisputably. They were never at that competitive level because they weren't that good, simple as that.

 

2. It is completely logical because they operate in different martial arts. This is a fairly simple concept, it's called specialization. If person A is average at one thing, and person B is a world master at another, person A can still train person B because they OPERATE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS. And no, it is nothing like your example at all, bodybuilding is just bodybuilding, it's not a skilled activity that has any differentiation. And you're wrong again. Batman might be seeking her because she's DIFFERENT, not better. As shown, he still has the capability to beat Lady Shiva, so it's fairly obvious that she's not better.

 

Daredevil has better speed, strength, and acrobatic ability than Lady Shiva. He is also undoubtedly smarter and tactically minded. Lady Shiva has shown little to no tactical ability ever, in fact, I would say she has a habit of being tricked.

1. It doesn't matter, they were better than their coaches at their prime too, indisputably. They were never at that competitive level because they weren't that good, simple as that.

 

No bro. You are assuming this. Their time frames with regards to competitive level, contenders, and even training differed. Any one who knows a bit of boxing or martial arts history will know, that arts, competitive sports, fighting sports all have grown faster, more challenging, with more competition. It is an ongoing trend. Whether 1 or 2 sports maybe exceptions to this, most sports undergo this experience, as do the folks partaking of their history and course of events.

 

2. It is completely logical because they operate in different martial arts. This is a fairly simple concept, it's called specialization. If person A is average at one thing, and person B is a world master at another, person A can still train person B because they OPERATE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS. And no, it is nothing like your example at all, bodybuilding is just bodybuilding, it's not a skilled activity that has any differentiation. And you're wrong again. Batman might be seeking her because she's DIFFERENT, not better. As shown, he still has the capability to beat Lady Shiva, so it's fairly obvious that she's not better.

 

Bro, this is my side of the coin: A world master at any particular art will excel even in his own circle above another, who is a novice. Here's an example, and not one at the world master 'stage', but quite lower: In one of my sparring sessions, I was told to only 'tag' a guy who was visiting during inter-school tournaments. I was unable to in a time span of an astounding 30 seconds, even tag him, leave alone rush him. His discipline was Tae-Kwon-do. Mine were Tae-Kwon-Do world style, plus wrestling, and even boxing to a degree. The reason could have been either: 1) I sucked bad OR 2) He was too experienced, and too good. I know for a fact, the reason was 2) He was too experienced, and too good. When he spoke to us briefly, he also mentioned that he dabbled in Kungfu, and had more than amalgamated or consolidated his training. That was him, but I know for a fact, that this is the most likely path, all fighters take now a days. Being a master is not just knowing that one discipline, and excelling at it, it's much more. Moreover, it is excelling in the core discipline, to a degree, that even if another knows a certain discipline but sucks at it, or is just as good, it becomes contradictory for the 'master' to learn bits of that discipline from a novice. That is my take bro, but more than that, it is the practical, realistic take. Bane necessarily did not know judo to a degree of excelling, yet he snapped Judomaster like a twig. While judomaster was a 'master' at his skill, Bane wasn't necessarily a master at judo, but an amalgam of skills, but excelled in them. That is what makes a difference. This is not an accountant teaching a stock trader accounting, this is a completely different channel of development and training. As for the Shiva part, you say it that way, doesn't mean it was listed that way. Bats ego is one hell of an ego. He wouldn't go to a bad guy, actively on the other side of the business unless they were exceptionally good. I could simply say that out of common sense. But more so at the release of the Knightfall sagas, the news was even in the papers; Chuck Dixon was among the writers who clearly said in a discussed comment section of this major story, that due to Shiva's level as a Master Assassin, and skill level that Bats respected, he went out of his element to seek her help. I am sorry, but I go with him.

 

Daredevil has better speed, strength, and acrobatic ability than Lady Shiva. He is also undoubtedly smarter and tactically minded. Lady Shiva has shown little to no tactical ability ever, in fact, I would say she has a habit of being tricked.

 

You can never know that bro. Shiva staved off Huntress or catwoman's strikes casually with one hand. One hand! That among her already meagerly listed, is one of her feats. It is not a casual feat either. I know for a fact that Catwoman or Huntress would at least give Bats a sweat, if not a real challenge.

[Guest Darxeth]

So Batman has never defeated Shiva in her right mind? Thought so.

[Guest force_echo]

So Batman has never defeated Shiva in her right mind? Thought so.

 

Lol, nice diversion instead of actually responding to my post. Your "definition" of right mind doesn't matter because Shiva's fighting ability was never lessened by being under mind control. And Shiva has never defeated Batman to my knowledge.

[Guest force_echo]

1. It doesn't matter, they were better than their coaches at their prime too, indisputably. They were never at that competitive level because they weren't that good, simple as that.

 

No bro. You are assuming this. Their time frames with regards to competitive level, contenders, and even training differed. Any one who knows a bit of boxing or martial arts history will know, that arts, competitive sports, fighting sports all have grown faster, more challenging, with more competition. It is an ongoing trend. Whether 1 or 2 sports maybe exceptions to this, most sports undergo this experience, as do the folks partaking of their history and course of events.

 

2. It is completely logical because they operate in different martial arts. This is a fairly simple concept, it's called specialization. If person A is average at one thing, and person B is a world master at another, person A can still train person B because they OPERATE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS. And no, it is nothing like your example at all, bodybuilding is just bodybuilding, it's not a skilled activity that has any differentiation. And you're wrong again. Batman might be seeking her because she's DIFFERENT, not better. As shown, he still has the capability to beat Lady Shiva, so it's fairly obvious that she's not better.

 

Bro, this is my side of the coin: A world master at any particular art will excel even in his own circle above another, who is a novice. Here's an example, and not one at the world master 'stage', but quite lower: In one of my sparring sessions, I was told to only 'tag' a guy who was visiting during inter-school tournaments. I was unable to in a time span of an astounding 30 seconds, even tag him, leave alone rush him. His discipline was Tae-Kwon-do. Mine were Tae-Kwon-Do world style, plus wrestling, and even boxing to a degree. The reason could have been either: 1) I sucked bad OR 2) He was too experienced, and too good. I know for a fact, the reason was 2) He was too experienced, and too good. When he spoke to us briefly, he also mentioned that he dabbled in Kungfu, and had more than amalgamated or consolidated his training. That was him, but I know for a fact, that this is the most likely path, all fighters take now a days. Being a master is not just knowing that one discipline, and excelling at it, it's much more. Moreover, it is excelling in the core discipline, to a degree, that even if another knows a certain discipline but sucks at it, or is just as good, it becomes contradictory for the 'master' to learn bits of that discipline from a novice. That is my take bro, but more than that, it is the practical, realistic take. Bane necessarily did not know judo to a degree of excelling, yet he snapped Judomaster like a twig. While judomaster was a 'master' at his skill, Bane wasn't necessarily a master at judo, but an amalgam of skills, but excelled in them. That is what makes a difference. This is not an accountant teaching a stock trader accounting, this is a completely different channel of development and training. As for the Shiva part, you say it that way, doesn't mean it was listed that way. Bats ego is one hell of an ego. He wouldn't go to a bad guy, actively on the other side of the business unless they were exceptionally good. I could simply say that out of common sense. But more so at the release of the Knightfall sagas, the news was even in the papers; Chuck Dixon was among the writers who clearly said in a discussed comment section of this major story, that due to Shiva's level as a Master Assassin, and skill level that Bats respected, he went out of his element to seek her help. I am sorry, but I go with him.

 

Daredevil has better speed, strength, and acrobatic ability than Lady Shiva. He is also undoubtedly smarter and tactically minded. Lady Shiva has shown little to no tactical ability ever, in fact, I would say she has a habit of being tricked.

 

You can never know that bro. Shiva staved off Huntress or catwoman's strikes casually with one hand. One hand! That among her already meagerly listed, is one of her feats. It is not a casual feat either. I know for a fact that Catwoman or Huntress would at least give Bats a sweat, if not a real challenge.

 

No, you're assuming that Muhammed Ali's trainer was actually better than Muhammed Ali at his prime, which is ridiculous. And if it has grown MORE challenging, well that just reinforces my point. If you look at all of those fighters' trainers in their prime, they were never as good as their trainee's in their prime even though the sport's gotten MORE competitive. 

 

Wow, thanks for proving my point. Yes, Bane can beat Judomaster, just like a trainee in Judo can beat a master in Judo if he knows other things. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame. Furthermore, what am I doing? I don't HAVE to provide real life examples. You're saying that because Shiva trained Batman she's more skilled than Batman, well then WHY CAN'T SHE BEAT BATMAN? You're saying that because Shiva trained Cassandra Cain she's as good as Cain, obviously not. You're point is countered by the source material, she's not more skilled than Batman, not more skilled than Cain, and she was beaten by BOTH of her students.

 

So? Is that supposed to be impressive? Is that supposed to counter Daredevil's feats? Daredevil's stronger than Huntress and Catwoman too.  You're reaching for straws. You're little training thing doesn't work, and this feat is so laughable that it probably wasn't worth the effort to type it. Daredevil can bat bullets away with his baton easily, and wield a freaking wrecking ball to shatter the arm off of DIAMOND absorbing man. A wrecking ball that is usually mounted on a goddamn crane. He can effortlessly curl 400 pounds and then beat the shit out of people with the weight. You haven't proven at all that Lady Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, but even if I assume they're even, Daredevil has the edge in literally EVERYTHING else.