Lady Shiva vs Daredevil

[baneblade]

Batman beat a mind controlled Shiva, and since no one has ever provided any evidence that her fighting abilities were impaired in any way during that fight, the feat stands. It's not like they've fought that much to begin with. Lady Shiva's beat Batman... what? Once? Maybe? They stalemated once, in fact, I'm not sure if Lady Shiva has ever conclusively beaten Batman. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame.

Good bro, even if she fell to Batman, it was to either a superior fighter or a fighter at par. She was not essentially his teacher then, they had both undergone years of experience on their own before they met there. That aside, I believe Bats or Casandra Cain to be over DD any day. In that comparison factor alone, it doesn't dampen her chances one bit against DD. Also, Chuck Dixon commented on this during the release of the major story arc, that Bats knew Shiva's skills, and went to her, not just regaining his, but learning an amalgam of additional skills, that were necessary to help him get back his physical ability as well. They expounded on this well during that time. Hence, be it, she lost there; (although like in previous posts in other matches, where you vehemently spoke about PIS in favour of a character, you could have mentioned it here as well, perhaps as a saving grace? - no matter there though) he was no longer under her for years, and either he surpassed her, or beat her that day out of character. I only state this because that grey area of mind control will not go anywhere, I know. Although, it is only fair to cite feats when both characters are fully in their element, to ward off excuses, lets just get out of that argument and move on.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Provide your best Batman feat, and I'll top it. And yes, Daredevil has an effectively enhanced reaction time due to his ability to predict movements, for the second time.

 

That is not enhanced reflexes, it is body language. Completely different. And here are a couple of Batman's reflex feats.

 

jla80pagegiant2-batgarrow.jpg

 

Catches Green Arrow's arrow. Notice how his back is turned as the arrow flies by his head.

 

batbulletime3.jpg

 

Bullets fired in panel before, Bats ducks in next panel.

 

batmanodyssey6-triggerarrows.jpg

 

Catches two arrows while speaking.

 

Then there is the infamous shoots Darkseid before being hit by Omega effect.

[baneblade]

No, you're assuming that Muhammed Ali's trainer was actually better than Muhammed Ali at his prime, which is ridiculous. And if it has grown MORE challenging, well that just reinforces my point. If you look at all of those fighters' trainers in their prime, they were never as good as their trainee's in their prime even though the sport's gotten MORE competitive. 

 

Wow, thanks for proving my point. Yes, Bane can beat Judomaster, just like a trainee in Judo can beat a master in Judo if he knows other things. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame. Furthermore, what am I doing? I don't HAVE to provide real life examples. You're saying that because Shiva trained Batman she's more skilled than Batman, well then WHY CAN'T SHE BEAT BATMAN? You're saying that because Shiva trained Cassandra Cain she's as good as Cain, obviously not. You're point is countered by the source material, she's not more skilled than Batman, not more skilled than Cain, and she was beaten by BOTH of her students.

 

So? Is that supposed to be impressive? Is that supposed to counter Daredevil's feats? Daredevil's stronger than Huntress and Catwoman too.  You're reaching for straws. You're little training thing doesn't work, and this feat is so laughable that it probably wasn't worth the effort to type it. Daredevil can bat bullets away with his baton easily, and wield a freaking wrecking ball to shatter the arm off of DIAMOND absorbing man. A wrecking ball that is usually mounted on a goddamn crane. He can effortlessly curl 400 pounds and then beat the shit out of people with the weight. You haven't proven at all that Lady Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, but even if I assume they're even, Daredevil has the edge in literally EVERYTHING else.

No, you're assuming that Muhammed Ali's trainer was actually better than Muhammed Ali at his prime, which is ridiculous. And if it has grown MORE challenging, well that just reinforces my point. If you look at all of those fighters' trainers in their prime, they were never as good as their trainee's in their prime even though the sport's gotten MORE competitive.

 

I am not assuming that at all. I will assume though, that if they were in the same age group, same weight class, came competitive lineup, Ali would have nil chances of besting him, because logically, he would be training under him, and not know all there is to know to go over him.

 

Wow, thanks for proving my point. Yes, Bane can beat Judomaster, just like a trainee in Judo can beat a master in Judo if he knows other things. Also, in training Batman you're neglecting the fact that Batman was weakened, and lost his skills after Knightfall. That was why she helped him, out of respect for his older self. So she didn't train Batman at his peak martial arts ability, she helped him REGAIN stuff. A whole different ballgame. Furthermore, what am I doing? I don't HAVE to provide real life examples. You're saying that because Shiva trained Batman she's more skilled than Batman, well then WHY CAN'T SHE BEAT BATMAN? You're saying that because Shiva trained Cassandra Cain she's as good as Cain, obviously not. You're point is countered by the source material, she's not more skilled than Batman, not more skilled than Cain, and she was beaten by BOTH of her students.

 

No, bro. My point was not what you took it to be at all. My point was simple that Bane 'excelled' Judomaster at his own (Bane's) skills, in his own circles, not the other way around. Sorry if I didn't interrupt it to your understanding, or anyone's for that matter. My implication was that Judomaster knowing his particular skill at a lower ebb (inspite of being labelled 'master') than Bane mastering his, would not make for a logical point, if Judomaster taught bane core judo, as Bane excelled him in what he knew,  making the point defunct, of learning combat skills he could trump anyway.

 

As for Shiva not beating Bats? I think I have explained it, Cassandra Cain is over DD and Bats, as her ability if such that she mimics body movement, and retaliates accordingly, an ability that will take her farther and it did. Bats' smarts are the reason why Shiva won't beat him,(if she loses), that is, if they have a legible, one on one match sans distractions. I am not saying she will not win, but if she does bro, he is among DC's premier fighters. To how many has he fallen exactly? For that matter, to how many has Cassandra Cain fallen? And to how many has Shiva fallen? To these two? Me thinks it is a circle of the 'kick ass' fighters of the DC universe isn't it? It is not hard to see bro, yet you are delving on the 'straw' yourself, discounting Shiva's ability simply on her primary students, who will best anyone in both universes. She taught them, in their primes, or during injury, but still during their primes; she made them what they are, and did so in the same profession, or same circle as them. It stands as a kick-ass feat, regardless of what you think.

 

So? Is that supposed to be impressive? Is that supposed to counter Daredevil's feats? Daredevil's stronger than Huntress and Catwoman too.  You're reaching for straws. You're little training thing doesn't work, and this feat is so laughable that it probably wasn't worth the effort to type it. Daredevil can bat bullets away with his baton easily, and wield a freaking wrecking ball to shatter the arm off of DIAMOND absorbing man. A wrecking ball that is usually mounted on a goddamn crane. He can effortlessly curl 400 pounds and then beat the shit out of people with the weight. You haven't proven at all that Lady Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, but even if I assume they're even, Daredevil has the edge in literally EVERYTHING else.

 

Straws it has to be if you put it that way bro. I already mentioned Shiva's feats are too less to 'draw' from. The only option you do is derive the facts and piece them together. That absolutely does not mean making them up, but deriving from the source material what you can and trying to substantiate the points into the argument, coupled with stated abilities of the character. Shiva's one of those characters, whose primary abilities are mostly listed in profiles, and extracted from her interactions with major players like Cain and Bats. I am teaching anyone here, you have been in this long enough bro. Shiva vs DD won't be a match too long. Shiva projects body movement through her ability (same ability she expanded on for Cain). She is not your conventional fighter. To me, that one ability, and her smarts are enough to give DD a headache. What you are seemingly doing bro, is taking advantage of just that situation and asking for cold hard 'facts' to lay down and compare. We both know there aren't enough, and there will be straws in this one. Unless there is someone who has read Shiva's every appearance (and those are far and in between too), that's they way it is. My take is straightforward, she has tussled and trained with the 2 top notch H2H fighters. She has matched their tactics and abilities, even if coming on a certain short end. I could make up all sorts of excuses here too, that Shiva had a death wish, and perhaps let go of several key strikes or advantages in the course of the fight with Cain the second time, but I won't as it wouldn't be an argument. Lets stick with what we have here eh? She tussled with, and trained the best giving them, full quarter when affording them every opportunity to go over her, in that she faced them in the course of an year or so.

[Guest force_echo]

1. Ali would definitely destroy the shit out of his trainer because his trainer is simply not as good. Ali is stronger, faster, has more natural talent, and was quite simply the best boxer ever. Joe Martin wasn't. Even in his prime. He wasn't even that good. He was an amateur boxer, but he wasn't good. Ali would annihilate his trainer in the same way people can be smarter than their teacher in the classroom in the same way Phelps would dominate his coach at his coach's prime, etc. The same goes for Bruce Lee, and all of the other people I mentioned. The instance where a coach IS more unknown is few and far between.

 

2. I don't know what you're saying with this Bane thing. Maybe if you cut out all of the bros and actually tried using concise, clear english I would be able to understand your point.

 

Daredevil can interpret body language too. Lady Shiva has "fallen" to a lot of people. I mentioned a list before. Cassandra Cain, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, and Victor Sage. there might be more, but Shiva's not very frequently used. She most definitely did not teach Batman anywhere near his prime. She actually taught him at the lowest point of his entire history as a character. She taught Cassandra when she couldn't read body language, you know, the entire thing that makes her as good as she is. If Batman can beat "anyone of both universes" (a claim so ridiculous its funny, but that's for another time) it has nothing to do with Shiva at all. The bottom line is training people doesn't mean you're more skilled than them. Maybe it means Shiva could beat Batman at the point in time in which she trained Batman, but that's not saying much, as he was basically a shadow of himself as stated by Shiva herself. Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, someone who literally has an infinite amount of fighting skill.

 

And Daredevil (like I've said before) can anticipate moves also. Her smarts? What smarts? Being outsmarted and overestimating her opponent? That's the extent of her tactical ability I've seen thus far. Daredevil however, is a master tactician, and out-thinks his opponents constantly. Daredevil still wins, even if Lady Shiva can match him in skill.

[Guest force_echo]

That is not enhanced reflexes, it is body language. Completely different. And here are a couple of Batman's reflex feats.

 

jla80pagegiant2-batgarrow.jpg

 

Catches Green Arrow's arrow. Notice how his back is turned as the arrow flies by his head.

 

batbulletime3.jpg

 

Bullets fired in panel before, Bats ducks in next panel.

 

batmanodyssey6-triggerarrows.jpg

 

Catches two arrows while speaking.

 

Then there is the infamous shoots Darkseid before being hit by Omega effect.

 

Daredevil can swat bullets out of midair after they are fired:

 

 

 

 

Batman can't do anything on that caliber. Note how the first scan is literally a perfect bullet-timing feat. He's still at first, the gun is fired. There's another scan where HE STILL HASN'T DEFLECTED THE BULLET, and then he deflects it and HITS THE GUY WHO FIRED IT. In the second one, he actually deflected it to hit the goddamn gun of the man who fired it. Not to mention that deflecting a bullet with a freaking inch wide baton is more impressive.

[Dark Spider-man]

Okay I am convinced, DD is a beast.

[Dark Spider-man]

Daredevil can swat bullets out of midair after they are fired:

 

 

 

 

Batman can't do anything on that caliber. Note how the first scan is literally a perfect bullet-timing feat. He's still at first, the gun is fired. There's another scan where HE STILL HASN'T DEFLECTED THE BULLET, and then he deflects it and HITS THE GUY WHO FIRED IT. In the second one, he actually deflected it to hit the goddamn gun of the man who fired it. Not to mention that deflecting a bullet with a freaking inch wide baton is more impressive.

That is very very impressive feats of DD I haven't even seen these.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

Daredevil can swat bullets out of midair after they are fired:

 

 

 

 

Batman can't do anything on that caliber. Note how the first scan is literally a perfect bullet-timing feat. He's still at first, the gun is fired. There's another scan where HE STILL HASN'T DEFLECTED THE BULLET, and then he deflects it and HITS THE GUY WHO FIRED IT. In the second one, he actually deflected it to hit the goddamn gun of the man who fired it. Not to mention that deflecting a bullet with a freaking inch wide baton is more impressive.

 

Wow. Here are a couple scans topping/equaling those.

 

blackwhite2-batbulletblock.jpg

 

Blocks bullets with a CHAIN. Much more impressive than a baton that the Devil uses knightly.

 

batbulletblock.jpg

 

Blocks submachine gun fire with his arm.

 

004.jpg

 

Punches away a bullet.

 

Batman doesn't do things of that caliber?

[Guest Darxeth]

Did you just say Ali was the greatest boxer ever? I'm sorry, butI disagree.

Rocky Marciano and Sugar Ray Robinson come to mind.

[Guest bigballerju]

Heh to add to the Daredevil scans for fun. The first are 2 Daredevil vs Hulk scans and the second is Daredevil beating the shit out of Kingpin. The man was taking shots from Hulk and still fighting. I think there are more scans to that Daredevil vs Hulk fight. I'll see if I can find more.

 

 

[baneblade]

1. Ali would definitely destroy the shit out of his trainer because his trainer is simply not as good. Ali is stronger, faster, has more natural talent, and was quite simply the best boxer ever. Joe Martin wasn't. Even in his prime. He wasn't even that good. He was an amateur boxer, but he wasn't good. Ali would annihilate his trainer in the same way people can be smarter than their teacher in the classroom in the same way Phelps would dominate his coach at his coach's prime, etc. The same goes for Bruce Lee, and all of the other people I mentioned. The instance where a coach IS more unknown is few and far between.

 

2. I don't know what you're saying with this Bane thing. Maybe if you cut out all of the bros and actually tried using concise, clear english I would be able to understand your point.

 

Daredevil can interpret body language too. Lady Shiva has "fallen" to a lot of people. I mentioned a list before. Cassandra Cain, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, and Victor Sage. there might be more, but Shiva's not very frequently used. She most definitely did not teach Batman anywhere near his prime. She actually taught him at the lowest point of his entire history as a character. She taught Cassandra when she couldn't read body language, you know, the entire thing that makes her as good as she is. If Batman can beat "anyone of both universes" (a claim so ridiculous its funny, but that's for another time) it has nothing to do with Shiva at all. The bottom line is training people doesn't mean you're more skilled than them. Maybe it means Shiva could beat Batman at the point in time in which she trained Batman, but that's not saying much, as he was basically a shadow of himself as stated by Shiva herself. Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, someone who literally has an infinite amount of fighting skill.

 

And Daredevil (like I've said before) can anticipate moves also. Her smarts? What smarts? Being outsmarted and overestimating her opponent? That's the extent of her tactical ability I've seen thus far. Daredevil however, is a master tactician, and out-thinks his opponents constantly. Daredevil still wins, even if Lady Shiva can match him in skill.

1 - You took this whole thing in a completely different direction than what I was implying. I am not sure if following up on this will actually improve it. Mohd Ali's trainer and Ali were never existing in the same element. I never meant to imply that 'any' trainer can do this. I meant to imply a unique situation, such as the one in which folks like Anderson Silva and St. Piere are right now. If the student faces either man, I bet they will go down really hard. That is the type of similar circle/sphere I was talking about. If I didn't come across as such, I apologise. I hope I cleared something form my side there.

 

2. I don't know what you're saying with this Bane thing. Maybe if you cut out all of the bros and actually tried using concise, clear english I would be able to understand your point.

 

Sarcasm much? Its alright bro, I am used to it , and I have seen you use it before. Maybe you should read through the post again.

 

Daredevil can interpret body language too. Lady Shiva has "fallen" to a lot of people. I mentioned a list before. Cassandra Cain, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, and Victor Sage. there might be more, but Shiva's not very frequently used. She most definitely did not teach Batman anywhere near his prime. She actually taught him at the lowest point of his entire history as a character. She taught Cassandra when she couldn't read body language, you know, the entire thing that makes her as good as she is. If Batman can beat "anyone of both universes" (a claim so ridiculous its funny, but that's for another time) it has nothing to do with Shiva at all. The bottom line is training people doesn't mean you're more skilled than them. Maybe it means Shiva could beat Batman at the point in time in which she trained Batman, but that's not saying much, as he was basically a shadow of himself as stated by Shiva herself. Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, someone who literally has an infinite amount of fighting skill.

 

And Daredevil (like I've said before) can anticipate moves also. Her smarts? What smarts? Being outsmarted and overestimating her opponent? That's the extent of her tactical ability I've seen thus far. Daredevil however, is a master tactician, and out-thinks his opponents constantly. Daredevil still wins, even if Lady Shiva can match him in skill.

 

All of the instances you mention, and the fighters, top notch talent. Prometheus' profile itself speaks for itself, Cheshire; first drugged shiva, Tim Drake was 'amped' by some drug, and where did Victor Sage defeat her? Even if he did, in another encounter, she both almost killed him, and helped him. David Cain, again in Bat's league. Who she really lost to, are top notch folks. I see the pattern you yourself are setting bro. I realise that you are stating DD's feats amassed over a number of years, and Shiva's can't be derived in as much number simply due to her being a fill-in/supporting character. As for the quality of 'smart' opponents DD faces and outsmarts, it is another debate altogether, as all of them are not 'smart' in fighting tactics, and he has had many many opponents. Shiva's opponents that you have listed yourself though, given her much more limited comic outings, are definitely the 'cream of the crop', if the fight was simply H2H, 1 on 1.

 

As for the opinion DD takes this or Shiva, that rests with us now, doesn't it?

[Guest force_echo]

Wow. Here are a couple scans topping/equaling those.

 

blackwhite2-batbulletblock.jpg

 

Blocks bullets with a CHAIN. Much more impressive than a baton that the Devil uses knightly.

 

batbulletblock.jpg

 

Blocks submachine gun fire with his arm.

 

004.jpg

 

Punches away a bullet.

 

Batman doesn't do things of that caliber?

 

He didn't block it with a chain, he blocked it with his arm with a chain wrapped around it. A baton is thinner than an arm, the baton feat is more impressive. Also, that doesn't prove bullet timing at all, the shooting and Batman's arm blocking it are in the same panel, he could have lifted it before the guy fired. The first scan I posted clearly shows the man firing and then Daredevil waiting, and then blocking it with a baton.  Same thing for the second scan. The third scan is pathetic, he didn't block that bullet, the guy missed and the bullet hit Batman's arm by accident. The space behind the arm is empty, which shows that Batman couldn't have blocked a body shot.

[Guest force_echo]

1 - You took this whole thing in a completely different direction than what I was implying. I am not sure if following up on this will actually improve it. Mohd Ali's trainer and Ali were never existing in the same element. I never meant to imply that 'any' trainer can do this. I meant to imply a unique situation, such as the one in which folks like Anderson Silva and St. Piere are right now. If the student faces either man, I bet they will go down really hard. That is the type of similar circle/sphere I was talking about. If I didn't come across as such, I apologise. I hope I cleared something form my side there.

 

2. I don't know what you're saying with this Bane thing. Maybe if you cut out all of the bros and actually tried using concise, clear english I would be able to understand your point.

 

Sarcasm much? Its alright bro, I am used to it , and I have seen you use it before. Maybe you should read through the post again.

 

Daredevil can interpret body language too. Lady Shiva has "fallen" to a lot of people. I mentioned a list before. Cassandra Cain, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, and Victor Sage. there might be more, but Shiva's not very frequently used. She most definitely did not teach Batman anywhere near his prime. She actually taught him at the lowest point of his entire history as a character. She taught Cassandra when she couldn't read body language, you know, the entire thing that makes her as good as she is. If Batman can beat "anyone of both universes" (a claim so ridiculous its funny, but that's for another time) it has nothing to do with Shiva at all. The bottom line is training people doesn't mean you're more skilled than them. Maybe it means Shiva could beat Batman at the point in time in which she trained Batman, but that's not saying much, as he was basically a shadow of himself as stated by Shiva herself. Daredevil has trained Iron Fist, someone who literally has an infinite amount of fighting skill.

 

And Daredevil (like I've said before) can anticipate moves also. Her smarts? What smarts? Being outsmarted and overestimating her opponent? That's the extent of her tactical ability I've seen thus far. Daredevil however, is a master tactician, and out-thinks his opponents constantly. Daredevil still wins, even if Lady Shiva can match him in skill.

 

All of the instances you mention, and the fighters, top notch talent. Prometheus' profile itself speaks for itself, Cheshire; first drugged shiva, Tim Drake was 'amped' by some drug, and where did Victor Sage defeat her? Even if he did, in another encounter, she both almost killed him, and helped him. David Cain, again in Bat's league. Who she really lost to, are top notch folks. I see the pattern you yourself are setting bro. I realise that you are stating DD's feats amassed over a number of years, and Shiva's can't be derived in as much number simply due to her being a fill-in/supporting character. As for the quality of 'smart' opponents DD faces and outsmarts, it is another debate altogether, as all of them are not 'smart' in fighting tactics, and he has had many many opponents. Shiva's opponents that you have listed yourself though, given her much more limited comic outings, are definitely the 'cream of the crop', if the fight was simply H2H, 1 on 1.

 

As for the opinion DD takes this or Shiva, that rests with us now, doesn't it?

 

1. The point still stands that you don't have to be a better boxer/martial artist to train someone else in boxing/martial arts, as I've shown. Bruce Lee/ Muhammed Ali/ Anderson Silva/George if they fought whoever trained them, both at their peaks, the student would win, just as Batman beat Shiva, just as Cain beat Shiva.

 

2. Nope, I don't know what you're talking about honestly. And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being 100% serious.

 

3. A bunch of Daredevil's foes are pretty damn smart, a lot smarter than Shiva, that's for sure. She's never shown tactical ability. Daredevil is also more physically capable, has more experience, range, weapons, etc. Even if they're even in raw skill there's literally no possible way Shiva can win this. And Victor Sage beat Shiva in a Brightest Day spinoff. Also, Shiva hasn't beaten the caliber of opponents Daredevil has. Daredevil who's beaten every top martial artist the MU has to offer and who regularly fights outside of his weight class, power wise.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

He didn't block it with a chain, he blocked it with his arm with a chain wrapped around it. A baton is thinner than an arm, the baton feat is more impressive. Also, that doesn't prove bullet timing at all, the shooting and Batman's arm blocking it are in the same panel, he could have lifted it before the guy fired. The first scan I posted clearly shows the man firing and then Daredevil waiting, and then blocking it with a baton.  Same thing for the second scan. The third scan is pathetic, he didn't block that bullet, the guy missed and the bullet hit Batman's arm by accident. The space behind the arm is empty, which shows that Batman couldn't have blocked a body shot.

 

Still in denial huh? The chain one, yes, but he was fast enough to line the bullet up with the chain and block. And all but the first scan are exactly the same for your Daredevil feats. Second scan, man shoots, Batman raises arm to block fire. Just cause the artist didn't want to illustrate the bullets whizzing through the air doesn't mean it's not bullet timing. And for the third scan, no punching a bullet out of the air is not pathetic. The guy did not miss. Batman wasn't holding his arm in the air. He blocked the bullet. I don't know why it makes you so pissy when I post proof of bullet timing. But here's some more.

 

batfreezesniper1.jpg

batfreezesniper2.jpg

 

You can clearly see Batman's position change. So he dodged the bullet coming at his back.

[Guest force_echo]

Still in denial huh? The chain one, yes, but he was fast enough to line the bullet up with the chain and block. And all but the first scan are exactly the same for your Daredevil feats. Second scan, man shoots, Batman raises arm to block fire. Just cause the artist didn't want to illustrate the bullets whizzing through the air doesn't mean it's not bullet timing. And for the third scan, no punching a bullet out of the air is not pathetic. The guy did not miss. Batman wasn't holding his arm in the air. He blocked the bullet. I don't know why it makes you so pissy when I post proof of bullet timing. But here's some more.

 

batfreezesniper1.jpg

batfreezesniper2.jpg

 

You can clearly see Batman's position change. So he dodged the bullet coming at his back.

 

No, the first daredevil scan I posted was clearly bullet timing because the guy fires, it goes back to Daredevil, who is still not moved, and THEN he blocks the bullet. It didn't happen in the same panel at all, like your scans. Also, the third guy definitely did miss unless he was trying to shoot the air behind Batman's hand. The hand is not in front of the body or head or anything, so unless the guy was aiming at empty space for no reason, he missed and it bounced off of Batman's body. Basic logic. Even if he did actually bullet time, it still isn't impressive as Daredevil batting away a bullet mid-flight and actually hitting the shooters gun with it. That requires far quicker reflexes than just letting the bullets bounce off of your arm.

 

Yes, because he anticipated it before time. Also, the shooter was aiming for Freeze, not Batman. You can even see that Batman is not fast enough to save Freeze from the bullet he even clearly states "there isn't enough time". Compare that to an injured Daredevil saving Spider-Man from a sniper bullet, and you'll see who has the better reflexes.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

No, the first daredevil scan I posted was clearly bullet timing because the guy fires, it goes back to Daredevil, who is still not moved, and THEN he blocks the bullet. It didn't happen in the same panel at all, like your scans. Also, the third guy definitely did miss unless he was trying to shoot the air behind Batman's hand. The hand is not in front of the body or head or anything, so unless the guy was aiming at empty space for no reason, he missed and it bounced off of Batman's body. Basic logic. Even if he did actually bullet time, it still isn't impressive as Daredevil batting away a bullet mid-flight and actually hitting the shooters gun with it. That requires far quicker reflexes than just letting the bullets bounce off of your arm.

 

Yes, because he anticipated it before time. Also, the shooter was aiming for Freeze, not Batman. You can even see that Batman is not fast enough to save Freeze from the bullet he even clearly states "there isn't enough time". Compare that to an injured Daredevil saving Spider-Man from a sniper bullet, and you'll see who has the better reflexes.

 

 I said all BUT the first scan. And an armored Mr. Freeze is  much harder to move than Spider-Man. And all it takes is a bit of depth perception to see that Batman dodged the bullet. It's that simple. There is nothing to suggest that he anticipated the bullet. I don't know why you say it is impossible when I constantly post proof. The scan earlier in the thread. Gunman shoots, Batman matrix-stlye ducks under the bullets. I have posted enough proof that puts him on Daredevil's level.

[baneblade]

No, the first daredevil scan I posted was clearly bullet timing because the guy fires, it goes back to Daredevil, who is still not moved, and THEN he blocks the bullet. It didn't happen in the same panel at all, like your scans. Also, the third guy definitely did miss unless he was trying to shoot the air behind Batman's hand. The hand is not in front of the body or head or anything, so unless the guy was aiming at empty space for no reason, he missed and it bounced off of Batman's body. Basic logic. Even if he did actually bullet time, it still isn't impressive as Daredevil batting away a bullet mid-flight and actually hitting the shooters gun with it. That requires far quicker reflexes than just letting the bullets bounce off of your arm.

 

Yes, because he anticipated it before time. Also, the shooter was aiming for Freeze, not Batman. You can even see that Batman is not fast enough to save Freeze from the bullet he even clearly states "there isn't enough time". Compare that to an injured Daredevil saving Spider-Man from a sniper bullet, and you'll see who has the better reflexes.

 

1. The point still stands that you don't have to be a better boxer/martial artist to train someone else in boxing/martial arts, as I've shown. Bruce Lee/ Muhammed Ali/ Anderson Silva/George if they fought whoever trained them, both at their peaks, the student would win, just as Batman beat Shiva, just as Cain beat Shiva.

 

2. Nope, I don't know what you're talking about honestly. And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being 100% serious.

 

3. A bunch of Daredevil's foes are pretty damn smart, a lot smarter than Shiva, that's for sure. She's never shown tactical ability. Daredevil is also more physically capable, has more experience, range, weapons, etc. Even if they're even in raw skill there's literally no possible way Shiva can win this. And Victor Sage beat Shiva in a Brightest Day spinoff. Also, Shiva hasn't beaten the caliber of opponents Daredevil has. Daredevil who's beaten every top martial artist the MU has to offer and who regularly fights outside of his weight class, power wise.

1. 1. The point still stands that you don't have to be a better boxer/martial artist to train someone else in boxing/martial arts, as I've shown. Bruce Lee/ Muhammed Ali/ Anderson Silva/George if they fought whoever trained them, both at their peaks, the student would win, just as Batman beat Shiva, just as Cain beat Shiva.                                                                                                                                                                                       You don't, and I never said it either. While you are trying to substantiate a point using any and all factors; you are missing some factors there as well. Factors like, there are varying degree of trainers. Those that just train. Others who are in the thick of it, and at their physical peak. Those are few, but they exist. You deliberate and I will say, rather incorrectly bro, that Bruce Lee or Ali, at their peaks, would lose to their students? You do know that the standards set by Ali and Lee while debated upon by haters, still stand to this day where professionals and amateurs alike regard their set standards as measuring rods? Even when I look at present day boxers, with regards to agility, aversion, footwork, stamina, and in ring manouvering; yes, they do not compare to Ali's style. Same goes for Lee; current martial artists, in several martial arts publications, acknowledge Lee’s martial arts prowess and how no one has really reached the standard, not even those who have followed in Lee’s self-styled/created art. With these exceptions, you could always argue, that a student training directly under Ali, when he was the greatest boxer, and lee when he was at his peak, WILL beat him; and you are entitled to your opinion. It however, isn’t logically sound. At their peaks, I give their students no chance. Yes, down the line, after an year, the ballgame is new, not the same.

 

2. Nope, I don't know what you're talking about honestly. And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being 100% serious.

 

 Alright bro. Judomaster: expert in Judo.  Bane : Judo skills nil., but excels farther in his own skill-set, which is essentially an amalgam of fighting styles. Bane > Judomaster. Even if Judo master knows Judo, him teaching Bane judo is redundant, as Bane is already above him in every other way. Same way, any ‘Master’ level or Sensei level individual will not seek to train from a novice, who may weild one skill the Master doesn’t. Because in fighting, the parts are always greater than the whole. Thereby, (in my take) any ‘Master†> novice, no matter what the novice wields as a skill.

 

3. A bunch of Daredevil's foes are pretty damn smart, a lot smarter than Shiva, that's for sure. She's never shown tactical ability. Daredevil is also more physically capable, has more experience, range, weapons, etc. Even if they're even in raw skill there's literally no possible way Shiva can win this. And Victor Sage beat Shiva in a Brightest Day spinoff. Also, Shiva hasn't beaten the caliber of opponents Daredevil has. Daredevil who's beaten every top martial artist the MU has to offer and who regularly fights outside of his weight class, power wise.

 

Bro, what you are repeatedly missing is the part where they face off in the dojo. No terrain/ledge/corner luxury, no wrecking ball, no surrounding advantage. You are getting that once Shiva figures out DD’s blind, and have extra senses after the first battle; he will have to contend with mostly what is silence. Not saying it is forgone, but I will deduce on it. There are things which she will accomplish in closed quarters of a plain surfaced silent dojo, that DD will have a hard time picking up. Also, DD’s opponents do not top Bats, or Cain, or Cassandra Cain. Now, of course, you will argue the opinion, and you have before on other matches involving either Bats or DD.  I know you have been commenting on set skills; reflexes, bullet timing, etc. No matter which way you throw it, there is no smarter opponent than Batman, and if Cassandra Cain can give him a run for his money, whether on panel or in words, then she is an opponent like none Daredevil has faced. If there is, go ahead and list em’. Ironfist or Bullseye, or Elektras are not it.

[Guest bigballerju]

Batman's speed is not on Daredevil's level. Daredevil's speed is near superhuman level. Batman's speed is not. Thanos stop trying to say it is because Batman's speed is not near superhuman level like Daredevil. Daredevil has been fast enough to keep up with Spiderman in battle and more.

 

 

[Guest Darxeth]

Daredevil is def. faster than Batman.

[Guest skadoosh]

Lol I was joking guy.

 

Seriously, I think DD wins the first one and Shiva wins the second one.

 

I knowwwww. You think Daredevil's equipment would play that large a role in the fight?

 

snip

 

I think you've shown more than enough proof of this:

 

Daredevil is def. faster than Batman.

[Guest bigballerju]

Daredevil is def. faster than Batman.

Heh exactly. 

 

I knowwwww. You think Daredevil's equipment would play that large a role in the fight?

 

 

I think you've shown more than enough proof of this:

I had to show more because of Thanos. I am done now.

[Guest skadoosh]

Yeah, the internet does not give up easily.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

No matter how much evidence i post, i will be called a fanboy. I posted Batman dodging a sniper shot. Oh well, Daredevil's faster (everyone on this site). If he is faster, it is by an imperceptible margin.

[Guest skadoosh]

I didn't call you a fanboy. Calling people names on the internet is pretty useless.

 

Batman is impossibly fast, for a human, but Daredevil has straight up superhuman senses and reflexes, and has shown a lot of the same feats as Batman, only more so. More often, involving more people, etc. They are both fast, but one of them is very fast.

[Guest thanosisawesome]

I didn't call you a fanboy. Calling people names on the internet is pretty useless.

 

Batman is impossibly fast, for a human, but Daredevil has straight up superhuman senses and reflexes, and has shown a lot of the same feats as Batman, only more so. More often, involving more people, etc. They are both fast, but one of them is very fast.

 

 

Both have speed of the same caliber, but Batman is also stronger, more durable, and has better equipment. And about equal technique.