Luke Skywalker vs Mace Windu

[Bergy_Berg]

A bit optimistic, don't you think?

He could flounder around for a little bit.

[Dark Spider-man]

Well Mace actually pwned Darth Sidious.  If it wasn't for Anakin's a** showing up, there wouldn't have been no episode 4,5, and 6.  Mace stomps Luke, trust me I'm a big Luke fan myself but I know when he can't win.

[Guest skadoosh]

So, Luke destroying the Death Star and defeating Darth Vader have, what, absolutely no bearing on this fight whatsoever?

 

Of course they do. So why are they being ignored?

Also, Sidious didn't kill Mace because he used the scenario to finally turn Anakin over to the Dark Side by letting him do so, and personally i'm not a big fan of Luke, i just don't think the fight is that one-sided.

[Guest bigballerju]

Is this a fight to see who is a better pilot and can use the force to make a impossible shot? LOL NO

 

How does Luke destroying the Death Star help him in a fight against Mace Windu?

[AVP vs The Terminator]

I don't think it was ever stated that Sidious let Mace win. And seriously, stop bringing up the Death Star and Vader. Mace would've killed Vader and Luke took out the Death Star because he had friends and piloting skills.

[Dark Spider-man]

So, Luke destroying the Death Star and defeating Darth Vader have, what, absolutely no bearing on this fight whatsoever?

 

Of course they do. So why are they being ignored?

 

Also, Sidious didn't kill Mace because he used the scenario to finally turn Anakin over to the Dark Side by letting him do so, and personally i'm not a big fan of Luke, i just don't think the fight is that one-sided.

In the fight you can see, Sidious struggling with Mace.  Mace is like an aggressive version of Yoda.  He doesn't mind killing a mofo to save the galaxy.  The dude even killed Boba's father with no second thought.  That is why he won, he knows what it takes.

 

Luke blowing up the Death Star I do agree has some significance to this debate because he used The Force to blow it up and save the remaining pilots.  But Mace would do that 10x's better than Luke using the Force if he was in that same situation.  Also when Luke beat Vader he was being turned to the darkside by his anger until he stopped.  He wasn't nessessarity being a "Jedi" when he was whooping on Vader and cut off his hand.  That was Luke's "Sith" moment until he said he wouldn't do it. 

 

While Mace on the other hand is full out Jedi that basically says.  "I hate to kill but I will if I have to with no second thought on it."  Mace is second to Yoda on the council that alone says not to mess with the dude.

[Guest bigballerju]

I think the reason why people say Sidious let Mace win is because George Lucas said Anakin as the Chosen One was the only person who could defeat him. Also when Luke got the better of Vader in Episode 6 I always felt it was because Vader then was undecided on what to do so he didn't go full out against Luke. Vader finally realized he couldn't let Sidious kill his son and then accomplished his destiny of destroying the Sith by killing Sidious.

[Dark Spider-man]

I think the reason why people say Sidious let Mace win is because George Lucas said Anakin as the Chosen One was the only person who could defeat him. Also when Luke got the better of Vader in Episode 6 I always felt it was because Vader then was undecided on what to do so he didn't go full out against Luke. Vader finally realized he couldn't let Sidious kill his son and then accomplished his destiny of destroying the Sith by killing Sidious.

Right you are sir.

[Guest skadoosh]

Few things. Luke destroyed the Death Star using the Force as well as his piloting skills, and Vader was a far more dangerous and powerful opponent than people seem to think, so defeating him, the Chosen One himself, is a very impressive feat. Also, i believe Sidious let Anakin kill Mace because it makes sense. He wanted a way to fully turn Anakin, he almost beat Yoda, so he could definitely beat Mace, he effortlessly killed the other three Jedi Mace brought with him and he wasn't having much trouble with Mace himself, etc.

 

But my original question has been answered both in and out of the CBUB, so i'm done.

[C.T.]

Vader in the movie we are talking about wasn't that impressive. He was the Chosen One, and his potential was effectively cut just like his legs. Sidious actually tried to flee from Yoda and it was only by catching him off guard and using the Force to keep Yoda away from him is why he won. Mace had Sidious beat in the saber duel and he would have beaten Vader much easier. Hell, old Kenobi was able to hold his own with Vader until he gave up. Just saiyan.

[Guest bigballerju]

To be fair to Vader if you see how Vader truly is in the comics and novels connected to the films he is a f**king beast. Though like Nova says it still stands Kenobi in his old age still was able to fight Vader. I always thought Kenobi even in old age still kept some of his training up in some way or another which is why he was able to face Vader.

[Guest skadoosh]

I agree, Vader isn't too impressive in the film, but it doesn't mean he's any less powerful or skilled. Vader is an absolute beast in some of the comics, novels and video games, so Luke beating him is a very impressive feat for the Jedi, regardless of how unimpressive Vader may have seemed in the films, essentially due to a lack of money for special effects and/or interesting choreography.

 

Yoda ended up running away from Sidious. It's pretty evident that he would have been killed if he'd stayed. It was a relatively even fight, but the winner, in the end, was very clear.

[C.T.]

No, it isn't very impressive, and no that's incorrect. That is not why Yoda fled. Sidious had backup coming, plenty of it.

[Guest potterpuppetpals]

I agree, Vader isn't too impressive in the film, but it doesn't mean he's any less powerful or skilled. Vader is an absolute beast in some of the comics, novels and video games, so Luke beating him is a very impressive feat for the Jedi, regardless of how unimpressive Vader may have seemed in the films, essentially due to a lack of money for special effects and/or interesting choreography.

 

Yeah, but pretty much everyone's already said that Mace could do it better. This point is now irrelevent.

[Guest skadoosh]

Yeah, but pretty much everyone's already said that Mace could do it better. This point is now irrelevent.

 

Mace probably winning the fight doesn't make it irrelevant. My question wasn't just "who would win", but what people thought about it, as in, "why" they would win, and people took a while to acknowledge Luke's feats, however lesser than Mace's they may be. Nothing to do with either character is irrelevant.

[Guest bigballerju]

Luke got angry and started tapping into the Dark Side to battle Vader. Not because he was that highly good of a Jedi. That's why Sidious tried turning him. He sensed Luke was shifting until Luke said no and rejected the Dark Side. Luke did what his father couldn't do and rejected the Dark Side when Sidious tried influencing him. Notice how in that fight Vader didn't use the force like he did in Episode 5. Obviously some part of him was still holding back. Sidious tried to get Luke to kill Vader and take his place similar to how he got Anakin to kill Dooku to replace him.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woFkIziqbw4

[Guest Nihlium]

Luke at the end of episode six was in no way at the level of Mace. First of all Vader was a mere shadow of himself and probably would be curb-stomped by people like the emperor and Yoda at the end of episode three. Luke would have no way of defeating Windu in a sabre battle and he had very little knowledge or training in the force. When Sidious and Mace fought it wasn't his sabre skills or raw power that won the fight for the emperor (because of Windu's mastery of Vapaad) it was his immense knowledge of the force that allowed him to use shatterpoint against Windu. So seeing that Luke had neither the battle prowess nor the knowledge at the time I doubt he would last a few minutes.     

[Dark Spider-man]

I agree, Vader isn't too impressive in the film, but it doesn't mean he's any less powerful or skilled. Vader is an absolute beast in some of the comics, novels and video games, so Luke beating him is a very impressive feat for the Jedi, regardless of how unimpressive Vader may have seemed in the films, essentially due to a lack of money for special effects and/or interesting choreography.

 

Yoda ended up running away from Sidious. It's pretty evident that he would have been killed if he'd stayed. It was a relatively even fight, but the winner, in the end, was very clear.

Wrong sir.  Yoda would have won, if Yoda didn't injure himself (the fall) he would have defeated Sidious.  Sidious was actually the one running away(jumping from platform to platform and throwing them at Yoda) to buy himself some time for back up to arrive.  Also in Sidious's office he tried to get away from Yoda but Yoda flipped in front of him and pulled out his saber, I.E Sidious didn't want none of Yoda he was trying to break for it so he didn't have to fight Yoda.

 

Yoda would have eventually beaten Sidious.  But the prophecy says that Anakin has to.  Vader in the comics, novels, etc is a monster I agree but so is Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, etc.  Luke is the only one that I think surpassed Yoda.

 

As I said, Luke using the Forec to destroy the Death Star is significant in this debate.  Now to show you that Yoda is stronger is this....Windu needed to block the lightning attack with his lightsaber while Yoda used his hands to block it, the other Jedi's with Windu were Jedi Masters but none of them were on par with Windu, Yoda, and even Kenobi.  Windu and Yoda are like the top 2 jedi's during that time.

 

Also, Old Ben-Kenobi was stronger than Darth Vader.  People think(not saying that you do) that Vader killed Kenobi when he didn't.  Kenobi was going to finish Vader until he saw Luke and stopped fighting, closed his eyes and disappeared, basically he became one with The Force on shear will.  Kenobi would have pwned Vader after a hard fight. 

 

So let me explain this also that Kenobi, Windu, Yoda, and Kenobi again tried to stop Vader  and Sidious but why can't they stop them?  The Prophecy.  The Prophecy is making things happen to where Vader has to kill Sidious.

 

Sorry if I missed anything out, I was trying to reply to all your posts at once.   

[Bergy_Berg]

Wrong sir.  Yoda would have won, if Yoda didn't injure himself (the fall) he would have defeated Sidious.  Sidious was actually the one running away(jumping from platform to platform and throwing them at Yoda) to buy himself some time for back up to arrive.  Also in Sidious's office he tried to get away from Yoda but Yoda flipped in front of him and pulled out his saber, I.E Sidious didn't want none of Yoda he was trying to break for it so he didn't have to fight Yoda.

 

Yoda would have eventually beaten Sidious.  But the prophecy says that Anakin has to.  Vader in the comics, novels, etc is a monster I agree but so is Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, etc.  Luke is the only one that I think surpassed Yoda.

 

As I said, Luke using the Forec to destroy the Death Star is significant in this debate.

 

Also, Old Ben-Kenobi was stronger than Darth Vader.  People think(not saying that you do) that Vader killed Kenobi when he didn't.  Kenobi was going to finish Vader until he saw Luke and stopped fighting, closed his eyes and disappeared, basically he became one with The Force on shear will.  Kenobi would have pwned Vader after a hard fight. 

I agree that minus the fall, Yoda probably would have won.

 

Luke really only used the force to help him target. He was a little in tune with the force, which allowed him to target better, but that's a feat that would probably be attainable by most Jedi.

 

I don't think Kenobi was stronger than Vader when they fought the second time. The two looked pretty even, and Vader saw a lot more action in the time between episodes III and IV. Also, I know he became one with the force, but if he was going to win there, why wouldn't he? So that Vader could find redemption?

[Guest Nihlium]

I don't think Kenobi was stronger than Vader when they fought the second time. The two looked pretty even, and Vader saw a lot more action in the time between episodes III and IV. Also, I know he became one with the force, but if he was going to win there, why wouldn't he? So that Vader could find redemption?

Because prophecy/plot trumps reason.

[Guest bigballerju]

Kenobi wasn't powerful enough to stop Vader. That's why he trained Luke and then had Yoda finish his training. Luke was there only hope of winning. Kenobi and Vader were even in lightsaber skills. However if Vader had used the force he would have won. We didn't see much from Vader in force abilities besides Episode 5 probably because back then special  effects weren't what they were now. That's probably the reason why we didn't also see that Vader isn't slow and he is a beast in combat. Seriously Vader with two or three swipes of his lightsaber could cut down dozens of men. He is a force to be reckoned with when he starts using his force abilities. Vader may have lost his chosen one abilities but he did become very powerful in the dark side.

[Dark Spider-man]

I agree that minus the fall, Yoda probably would have won.

 

Luke really only used the force to help him target. He was a little in tune with the force, which allowed him to target better, but that's a feat that would probably be attainable by most Jedi.

 

I don't think Kenobi was stronger than Vader when they fought the second time. The two looked pretty even, and Vader saw a lot more action in the time between episodes III and IV. Also, I know he became one with the force, but if he was going to win there, why wouldn't he? So that Vader could find redemption?

Like Niulium and I said before, Kenobi chose to stop fighting because he saw Luke.  Which means yes you're right, so that Vader can find redemption which then refers to The Prophecy.  The Prophecy and putting things in order to where no one can't kill Sidious except Vader.  No, Kenobi is stronger.  Vader has been through things but Kenobi took training again after Episode 3 when Yoda said "An old friend is waiting for you, blah blah blah" Qui Gon Jin returned.  Qui Gon knew how to reveal himself through the Force but couldn't disappear in to the Force after he died (He was burned at the end of Episode 1) so Kenobi had to go through years of intense training and meditation from Qui Gon in order to just disappear in to the Force which Qui Gon wasn't even able to do.  The only two that did that was Kenobi and Yoda (Not even Vader after he died).  Sure, Vader went through a lot of stuff before he fought Kenobi but Kenobi was training his butt off for years. 

[Dark Spider-man]

Like Nihlium and I said before, Kenobi chose to stop fighting because he saw Luke.  Which means yes you're right, so that Vader can find redemption which then refers to The Prophecy.  The Prophecy and putting things in order to where no one can't kill Sidious except Vader.  No, Kenobi is stronger.  Vader has been through things but Kenobi took training again after Episode 3 when Yoda said "An old friend is waiting for you, blah blah blah" Qui Gon Jin returned.  Qui Gon knew how to reveal himself through the Force but couldn't disappear in to the Force after he died (He was burned at the end of Episode 1) so Kenobi had to go through years of intense training and meditation from Qui Gon in order to just disappear in to the Force which Qui Gon wasn't even able to do.  The only two that did that was Kenobi and Yoda (Not even Vader after he died).  Sure, Vader went through a lot of stuff before he fought Kenobi but Kenobi was training his butt off for years. 

[Guest stargazer69]

Luke at this time is the only jedi around Obi-wan and Yoda taught him barely anything. Master Windu was a JEDI MASTER! Mace invented his own lightsaber form! Luke convinced Darth Vader to be overthrow the sidious. Luke has no chance in hell.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

You're guys logic is flawed

 

 

Luke is more powerful in the force than anyone at his peak, more so than Yoda, more so than Qui. Etc. he is just not the most powerful to begin with.

 

Let me put it this way. Luke starts his own Jedi council that allows a more fluid way to practice the force and not so much the old ways.

He thinks outside the box and explores the taboo portions that were considered "bad"

 

The emperor was on to something when he said that to become complete you must master both sides. Luke has the dark side and mastered the bad parts thus gaining more power than just being the light side. Like is the Lebron James of Jesus while mace is the Kobe Bryant. Training at this point is moot as his power is beyond maces. So it looks like power is above skill at this point.

Mace could not defeat palps aid they went all out by the way