Magneto vs The Enterprise

[Indolent]

He can strip the energy shields, which consist of gravitons - he can manipulate gravitons. It's how he's produced anti-gravity relatively easily, etc. Even if he couldn't be able to manipulate it, there's literally nothing preventing him from sensing the source of the deflector shields via his vision and generate a local magnetic well to shred these- i.e. the emitters that form up the shields.

 

 

Actually since the Enterprise is apparently right above Magneto's base on Earth, Magneto can just effortlessly utilize the planet's electromagnetic fields to shred the ship's shields or even the ship itself apart... or even disable the ship's electronics. He's dropped a mountain on insurgents with his magnetism, which should speak for the sheer strength of the localize magnetic wells he can summon up on the ship utilizing the planet's electromagnetic fields, and disabled the entire planet's electronics before.

 

 

^ I cannot find the next page but the context is supposedly him disabling the planet's electronics.

 

Try imagining the fact they'd be caught off guard by such instance and would end up in the likes of a sun before realizing it? Well they wouldn't be able to realize it in time since... you know, they'd be crispy. Though this was just a suggestion, he doesn't need to do this as the prior paragraph is the more likely way to go about it.

 

Refer to first paragraph

 

I'm presuming the fact that he's leveled a city before with sheer infrared radiation / heat before could consist of being within nuclear ranges. But he doesn't need to hit it with nuclear level energy attacks since he's got better means of going about it.

 

The fact that he can use wormholes to transport himself to place isn't in question. The fact that he can use his electromagnetic vision to scan the innards of the Enterprise to configure a wormhole entrance of his picking isn't in question. He's demonstrated the capability to use wormholes for transport, he's demonstrated the capability of his electromagnetic vision. X-Rays are within the electromagnetic spectrum and he can see it in that manner.

 

Here's him effortlessly generating a wormhole and coming back with seemingly no strain:

 

[Indolent]

Also he can fly in space - he can contain himself within his forcefields - it's just the limited air supply he has to worry about but since this is taking place right next to Planet Earth, he doesn't need to go into space.

[Guest Hayesmeister5651]

Magneto is one of few over powered people that are interesting as a character.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

He can strip the energy shields, which consist of gravitons - he can manipulate gravitons. It's how he's produced anti-gravity relatively easily, etc.

 

Your scan doesn't show him manipulating gravitons. He's creating a powerful enough magnetic field to "effectively reverse gravity." In other words, he's countering gravity with magnetism, not affecting gravity himself.

If he could manipulate gravitons, his power to do so would be limited and the Enterprise's shields are comfortably above his demonstrated upper limits.

 

Even if he couldn't be able to manipulate it, there's literally nothing preventing him from sensing the source of the deflector shields via his vision and generate a local magnetic well to shred these- i.e. the emitters that form up the shields.

The emitters are protected by the shields. If he can't get through the shields he can't disable the emitters.

Actually since the Enterprise is apparently right above Magneto's base on Earth, Magneto can just effortlessly utilize the planet's electromagnetic fields to shred the ship's shields or even the ship itself apart... or even disable the ship's electronics. He's dropped a mountain on insurgents with his magnetism, which should speak for the sheer strength of the localize magnetic wells he can summon up on the ship utilizing the planet's electromagnetic fields, and disabled the entire planet's electronics before.

Effortlessly? In force Echo's scans we see that manipulating the earth's magnetic field was extremely difficult and painful. Please provide some evidence of how great a power boost this would give him, or that he can do it at all.

Dropping a mountain is not a big deal at the power levels we're talking about. He was able to lift Asteriod M into orbit, and that's something like 2 million tons. If he applied the same energy (114,000 terrajoules) at a much lower speed, say (25 meters/sec) he could raise about 1,140,000,000,000 tons. That's impressive, but 114,000 terrajoules isn't enough to break through the Enterprise's shields.

I don't know how to calculate the power of an EMP that would take out the world's electronics, but the feat isn't relevant here. 23rd century technology is much more resistant to such things. The EMP created by the nuclear weapon fired at the Enterprise in "Patterns of Force" had no effect at all, and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" states that magnetic storms were a hazard in the early days of space travel but, by the time of Kirk's Enterprise they  are no longer an issue.

 

It's impossible to say anything definitive without knowing how strong Magneto's pulse is and how good the hardening of Enterprises circuits are. My guess is that Magneto's pulse wouldn't have much effect on Enterprise. I understand if you disagree, but both our answers are mostly guesswork without more evidence.

 

The scan with the wormhole is interesting. Is this something he does regularly, or just this once? Do we know anything about his limits? There's a good chance that this idea could work but it would be nice to know more about it to be sure.

[kainboa]

He has previously done the wormhole thing fairly casually, moving from the X-mansion to New York, where he also demonstrated relatively casual Matter manipulation, in changing his uniform into civilian clothes.

 

I don't have a scan of it on hand, but I'll go through my comics and see if I can't find it.

[Indolent]

He doesn't need to go through the shields - you don't seem to understand that he can generate it on or within the emitters.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I understand the claim that both you and Force Echo have made. I also understand that neither of you has presented any evidence that this is anything more than an opinion. 

[Indolent]

It's not an opinion but a fact that he's capable of generating wells wherever he pleases, especially if he's using the planet's fields to create these wells. That would mean it bypasses the shields and destroys them since they're being formed on site and not coming in from out. I believe we've already established that Magneto is capable of shredding the Enterprise's Hull. He's capable of doing so by bypassing the deflector shield via said manifestations of said wells at said sites.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

If it's a fact you should be able to offer some evidence to that effect.

[Indolent]

Wormholes - effectively a use of his electromagnetism where he wants to go.

 

The widespread EMP Pulse.

 

Channeling his magnetic power to lift and drop a mountain.

 

Plenty of instances you can find and read for yourself that indicates high end control of his power in terms of positioning where he wants it to happen and what effect to a degree. Hence my constant, incessant affirmation that it can be done.

 

Also I'm under the impression you're holding out that the shielding would render any medium of the attack I'm suggest impossible - is that the case or?

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

As I said, the wormholes have a good chance of working. I'd like to know more about them to be sure but this is probably Magneto's best strategy.

 

I've also said that, if Magneto can manipulate the magnetic fields aboard the Enterprise even though they're shielded, he could destroy the ship (though he and a good bit of the earth would be wiped out in the process.) I'm still waiting on any evidence that his powers work like this.

 

The EMP pulse is good against early 21st technology. I have demonstrated that the the 23rd technology of the Enterprise is resistant to powerful EMP (magnetic storms and nuclear detonation) you have not offered any evidence to show that Magneto's EMP can do anything to technology this advanced. If you have any such evidence, please present it.

 

I have estimated Magneto's mountain dropping power at 114,000 terajoules and documented the reasons I believe this. If you can provide any evidence that I've underestimated his power, please do so.

 

The Enterprise has shields that can withstand multiple hits from photon torpedoes. Each photon torpedo has a yield equal to 269,400 terajoules (that's 2.36 times as much energy as the strongest feat that Magneto's demonstrated.) 

 

It doesn't really matter whether Magneto is using his power to create a thermal attack, or to throw a mountain, or to trying to crush the ship with magnetic force, his best feats show that he can only generate about half the power needed to damage the shields as much as a single photon torpedo. If you have any evidence that contradicts this, please produce it.

Plenty of instances you can find and read for yourself that indicates high end control of his power in terms of positioning where he wants it to happen and what effect to a degree. Hence my constant, incessant affirmation that it can be done.

 

It sounds like you're saying that you can't be bothered to do your own research and would like me to do it for you. If so, I have to decline.

we have to say he cannot significantly greater power for Magneto, of  is not enough to break through shields that can withstand multiple hits from photon torpedoes which have a yield

[Guest sirmethos]

People seem to be completely ignoring, or forgetting, the obvious way for Magneto to relatively effortlessly use his powers inside the ship, even without the use of wormholes.

 

The ship is visible through the shields, thus the shields allow at least visible light to pass through. Visible light also falls under Magneto's powers.

 

Magneto's power is literally to "project or manipulate any form of energy within the electromagnetic spectrum".

 

He can simply manipulate EM energy aboard the ship, via the visible light that passes through the shields.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

That won't work. Look at some images of the ship firing phasers and you'll see why.

[Guest sirmethos]

Quite the contrary.

 

Here are 4 pictures of Enterprise firing its phasers, and one picture of the Enterprise firing on a Klingon ship:

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you may notice: In all of the pictures(just like I said in my last post), the ship is visible through the shields. I.e. the shields do not prevent visible light from passing through.

 

Magneto can use that visible light(which is EM energy) to get his power through the shields. I.e. control EM energy aboard the ship, via the visible light/EM energy, that the shields do nothing to stop.

[Guest skadoosh]

People seem to be completely ignoring, or forgetting, the obvious way for Magneto to relatively effortlessly use his powers inside the ship, even without the use of wormholes.

 

The ship is visible through the shields, thus the shields allow at least visible light to pass through. Visible light also falls under Magneto's powers.

 

Magneto's power is literally to "project or manipulate any form of energy within the electromagnetic spectrum".

 

He can simply manipulate EM energy aboard the ship, via the visible light that passes through the shields.

 

I have a few questions.

 

Firstly, just to clarify, you're suggesting that the visible light that seems to pass through the shields would act as a conduit for Magneto's other powers which he could then use aboard the ship despite not being aboard himself? Secondly, wouldn't Magneto find it difficult to control energy inside the ship, seeing as he can't see inside the ship? Lastly, do you have any evidence this would work? A scan of Magneto using one type of electromagnetic energy as a conduit for another would be ideal.

 

 

That won't work. Look at some images of the ship firing phasers and you'll see why.

 

Why don't you think it would work, just out of interest?

[Guest force_echo]

An ICBM could carry a payload that big, yes. Are you suggesting that the missiles in your scan are ICBM's? They are clearly cruise missiles.

 

You're partly right, the concussive force is not radiation but the heat is. Heat is thermal radiation.

 

The set up says that Magneto detects the Enterprise first and they only notice him when he flies toward them. I don't know if Magneto can fly in space, but it's in the set up so I'm giving him that. There is nothing arbitrary about the fact that Magneto is generating a powerful energy field. He is using his powers to fly.

 

I appreciate the research you did on looking up the Enterprise phaser data. Unfortunately, the numbers from your sources are nonsense, as should be evident from the fact that they are wildly inconsistent with each other. All of them are flatly contradicted by the evidence from the shows and movies. I'll take them one at a time.

 

The 40 megawatt figure from Battle Lines is equal to 40 megajoules/sec. This means that a 1 second burst would have the same force as the explosion of slightly over 19 lbs. of TNT, roughly the power of a sidewinder missile.

 

The 1.02 gigawatt figure from the TNG Tech Manual would equal about 485 lbs of TNT, or about the power of one 18" cannon from a WW-2  era battleship. 

 

The 4.2 gigawatt figure is equal to a little under a ton of TNT. That's roughly 1/11 the power of the largest conventional bomb. 

 

The 400 gigawatt figure is a little more realistic, it has the power of neatly 100 tons of TNT. That's 9 times bigger than the biggest conventional bomb, but still much smaller than the yield of even a suitcase nuke.

 

The 790 Terawatt figure from the DS-9 Tech Manual is better, but still only yields 189 kilotons of energy, a little short of what you'd get from the warhead on a tomahawk cruise missile.

 

If any of these numbers made sense, I'd agree that Magneto would win pretty decisively. Unfortunately, they don't. I did some math with the 790 Terawatt output. If you put an engine with that capacity in a ship the size of Kirk's Enterprise, it would take more than 56 hours to accelerate to .9 sublight. Since we've seen the ship do this sort of thing in mere seconds, the number in the manual has to be much too low.

 

The other thing about the numbers that is an issue is visual evidence. Ship's Phasers and photon torpedoes visually do similar damage. Torpedo damage seems maybe slightly greater. That can't be if the torpedoes (whose explosive force can be accurately be determined based on real world physics) are many hunderds of times more powerful. The logical conclusion is that the phaser banks on Kirk's Enterprise have an out put in tho 200-250 petawatt range.

 

Magneto has the raw power to vaporize pieces of the ship's hull, I agree, but has he ever used his power in that way? I can't see how magnetism would be as useful in trying to vaporize something as a different form of energy, like heat.

 

If, as you suggest, Magneto can simply bypass the shields and directly affect the magnetic fields within the ship, he could win. For one thing, the antimatter in the ships engines is held within a magnetic field. Mess with that and the whole thing goes boom!

 

It depends on how Magneto's powers work. If he, or the magnetic field he generates, has to be in contact with another magnetic field in order to manipulate it, the deflectors will stop him. If he can psychically sieze controls of a remote magnetic field without such contact, he can win. We know from TNG that deflector shields do not block telepathy. If Magneto is using a similar psychic power to access the fields in the ship, the shields won't stop him. I would like to see some confirmation that this is how his powers work before I agree.

 

Magneto could destroy the photon torpedoes once they left protection of the shields. The fact that they use antimatter in a magnetic containment field would make that fairly simple. The two issues he'd have to deal with are range and speed. He wants to be far away from the torpedoes when they explode, but he also needs to be close enough to the ship to see (or sense) them fire. I can't find a listing for how fast the torpedoes are but I'm guessing high sublight (they are warp capable, but that shouldn't come into play in this fight.) He has good potential to defend against them, but it's dangerous, even for him. Phasers will be much more difficult for him to deal with.

 

Power to power, Magneto doesn't have a chance. If he can mess with the engine core, and do it so quickly that they don't get off even one phaser shot, he can win (though it's unlikely he will survive the explosion.)

 

If he could get on board, Magneto could easily take over the ship. In the battle as outlines, the best he can hope for is mutually assurred destruction.

Right, sure they are. That's why they were launched from the US into Genosha, because they weren't INTERCONTINENTAL ballistic missiles.

 

Actually, heat is the average kinetic energy of molecules. It is not radiation at all, it does radiate, because the electrons of the heated material go into higher energy states and back down releasing photons, otherwise known as black body radiation, but heat is definitely not radiation.

 

It honestly doesn't matter if it "makes sense". It's canon. Go send a letter to the people in charge of Star Trek yields. Also, you're talking about conventional acceleration. Star Trek ships, I think, use warp drives, which manipulate space time, to go relativistic speeds. Also, another thing I left out for some reason, he can absorb electromagnetic energy. First phaser shot, he gets supercharged, uses it to power his shields. Unstoppable. Even if they were in the Petawatt range, current Iron Man, whose repulsors go into the high petawatt range (Invincible Iron Man 25) directly stated that he had no way of getting past Magneto's shields (AvX Battles). He literally had to channel the entire magnetic field of Jupiter to defeat Magneto. Another thing, he was able to manipulate Adamantium, a material with tensile strength that has withstood planet-destroying blasts and the like. 

 

He can use lasers and stuff. Complete control of the E/M spectrum. Which would also let him bypass any electromagnetic scanning procedures the Enterprise has btw.

 

You need confirmation that he can manipulate metal at a source without sending a ray? That's just how his powers work, he can control metal (and matter in general to some extent) at a subatomic level. He controls metal where the metal is, there has been nothing to indicate otherwise. He was able to affect Iron Man's armor through his force field/ energy shielding until Iron Man activated his magnetic flux shielding in The Avengers. In fact, you go ahead and show proof that he's sending some kind of invisible magnetic ray to the target, instead of just manipulating it innately on sight (which is what it seems like on literally every single occasion he's manipulated metal), even though it's been mentioned multiple times that he has an innate subatomic link to metal.

 

Considering that he can affect things on the other side of the planet, I'm fairly confident he can manipulate the missiles, or the Enterprise itself at a distance to where he won't be injured by the effects.

[Guest force_echo]

I don't know how to calculate the power of an EMP that would take out the world's electronics, but the feat isn't relevant here. 23rd century technology is much more resistant to such things. The EMP created by the nuclear weapon fired at the Enterprise in "Patterns of Force" had no effect at all, and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" states that magnetic storms were a hazard in the early days of space travel but, by the time of Kirk's Enterprise they  are no longer an issue.

 

It's impossible to say anything definitive without knowing how strong Magneto's pulse is and how good the hardening of Enterprises circuits are. My guess is that Magneto's pulse wouldn't have much effect on Enterprise. I understand if you disagree, but both our answers are mostly guesswork without more evidence.

 

I know how you like visual evidence. Visually, The Enterprise's systems aren't hardened to any magnetic fielding at all, because every time we see the hull get hit, every console on the bridge lights up like a firework. Of course, this is probably done for dramatic effect, not canonical reasons, so it's probably not true. In either case, your examples are moot, because the magnetic field in those cases are probably being deflected by the deflector shield. Magneto can make an electric field inside the bridge.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Quite the contrary.

 

Here are 4 pictures of Enterprise firing its phasers, and one picture of the Enterprise firing on a Klingon ship:

 

<snip>

As you may notice: In all of the pictures(just like I said in my last post), the ship is visible through the shields. I.e. the shields do not prevent visible light from passing through.

 

Magneto can use that visible light(which is EM energy) to get his power through the shields. I.e. control EM energy aboard the ship, via the visible light/EM energy, that the shields do nothing to stop.

 

You've missed my point. Think about what the phasers look like. They vary from picture to picture from blue to green to yellow to red. Phasers are light-based weaponry; they use beams of light to transfer huge amounts of energy. What kind of light? Your scans shot that it can be blue light, green light, red light, yellow light, and probably several other shades on the visible part of the spectrum.

 

In other words, your images very clearly show the deflector shields stopping visible light. The shields are transparant when it comes to visible light at a level that would be harmless to the ship, but concentrate that light in a laser or a phaser and they will stop it.

 

Magneto can send visible light at the ship, just not with enough amplitude to do him any good.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Right, sure they are. That's why they were launched from the US into Genosha, because they weren't INTERCONTINENTAL ballistic missiles.

 

They're not ballistic missiles at all. An ICBM has a short engine burn time and then momentum and gravity get it to the target. After the initial burn it's effective a thrown object. That's why they're called "ballistic" from the Greek word balleo (to throw.) Ballistic missiles are incapable of approaching a target at low altitudes, they rise to near orbital altitudes and drop from there. Here's an image of a 

 

Cruise missiles operate on a different principal. They use a constant engine burn and wing-like protrusions to achieve powered flight. They are designed to approach a target at low altitude and very fast.

 

The missiles in your scan are clearly using powered flight to approach their target at a low altitude. They are cruise missiles. 

 

 

Actually, heat is the average kinetic energy of molecules. It is not radiation at all, it does radiate, because the electrons of the heated material go into higher energy states and back down releasing photons, otherwise known as black body radiation, but heat is definitely not radiation.

 

Got me on a technicality, of course what Magneto would need to control would technically not be heat either but thermal radiation. Unless that has been mis-named, Magneto's problem is containing radiation.

 

It honestly doesn't matter if it "makes sense". It's canon. Go send a letter to the people in charge of Star Trek yields.

 

So the canon is infallable and must be accepted literally and uncritically? This reminds me of debating Fundamentalists.  

 

Here's the thing, you quoted 5 (IIRC) canon sources and none of them agree. Of course, they're all canon so they all have to be considered equally valid and none of them can be questioned. What do you do then, arbitrarily pick one and ignore the others?

 

I think we're coming at this from two different perspectives. I don't care about winning a debate, I want to find a way for things to make sense. You seem to take the opposite approach.  

 

Also, you're talking about conventional acceleration. Star Trek ships, I think, use warp drives, which manipulate space time, to go relativistic speeds.

 

At sublight velocities (which I was talking about) they use "impulse engines" which are distinct from warp drive. They are conventional engines and do not manipulate spacetime.

 

Also, another thing I left out for some reason, he can absorb electromagnetic energy. First phaser shot, he gets supercharged, uses it to power his shields. Unstoppable. Even if they were in the Petawatt range, current Iron Man, whose repulsors go into the high petawatt range (Invincible Iron Man 25) directly stated that he had no way of getting past Magneto's shields (AvX Battles). He literally had to channel the entire magnetic field of Jupiter to defeat Magneto. Another thing, he was able to manipulate Adamantium, a material with tensile strength that has withstood planet-destroying blasts and the like. 

 

That is an interesting argument. Do you have a scan or other evidence? If so, he could win.

 

He can use lasers and stuff. Complete control of the E/M spectrum. Which would also let him bypass any electromagnetic scanning procedures the Enterprise has btw.

 

I don't know what you're talking about here. Are you saying that he could make himself invisible to their sensors?

 

You need confirmation that he can manipulate metal at a source without sending a ray? That's just how his powers work, he can control metal (and matter in general to some extent) at a subatomic level.

 

By projecting a magnetic field, unless you're saying that he does this without magnetism.

 

He controls metal where the metal is, there has been nothing to indicate otherwise. He was able to affect Iron Man's armor through his force field/ energy shielding until Iron Man activated his magnetic flux shielding in The Avengers.

 

This is a good point. He can penetrate some types of force fields but not others. The question is whether the Enterprise shielding has the same qualities as Iron Man's magnetic flux shielding. The fact that the Enterprise can survive the EMP of a nearby thermonuclear weapon and natural "magnetic storms" without any apparent issues suggests that they do. For that matter, the EMP from a photon torpedo detonating would be huge and we never see the ship's systems going down because of this.

 

In fact, you go ahead and show proof that he's sending some kind of invisible magnetic ray to the target, instead of just manipulating it innately on sight (which is what it seems like on literally every single occasion he's manipulated metal), even though it's been mentioned multiple times that he has an innate subatomic link to metal.

 

That's how magnetism works. In nature it does one of two things, it either pulls an object or pushes it away, depending on polarity. A Magnet does this by generating a magnetic field that physically originates in the magnet and physically contacts the object. The connection between the magnet and the object is invisible to the naked eye, but it is very much a physical connection.

 

A good way to illustrate this would be to dangle a metal bolt from a string. If you hold a magnet near it, the bolt will move toward the magnet. If you put a barrier that acts as an insulator between the bolt, the attraction is broken because the physical contact is broken.

 

If Magneto is using magnetism to affect things around him, then the magnetic field he generates has to make physical contact with it. If an insulating barrier is placed between him and the object, he cannot affect it... at least not with magnetism.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that he's using some force other than magnetism--some force that doesn't behave like magnetism at all--to do these things. Is that so? If it is, you need to explain what that force is and give some idea of how it operates. But if he's using magnetism, I'm right.

 

Considering that he can affect things on the other side of the planet, I'm fairly confident he can manipulate the missiles, or the Enterprise itself at a distance to where he won't be injured by the effects.

 

Unfortunately, being confident is not the same thing as either evidence or a solid, logical argument.  

 

There have actually been two good arguments made on your side. The wormhole thing would let Magneto get on board, and then nothing could stop him. I'd still like to know a little more about this, like why it appears that he has only ever used it twice, but I'm leaning toward a Magneto victory because of this argument.

 

The other is the one you mentioned in this post. If Magneto can absorb an energy attack in the high petawatt range and use them to amplify his own powers, he has a real advantage. It isn't 100% decisive because the Enterprise has beaten seemingly unbeatable enemies before, but it is would be enough for a probable victory.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

I know how you like visual evidence. Visually, The Enterprise's systems aren't hardened to any magnetic fielding at all, because every time we see the hull get hit, every console on the bridge lights up like a firework. Of course, this is probably done for dramatic effect, not canonical reasons, so it's probably not true. In either case, your examples are moot, because the magnetic field in those cases are probably being deflected by the deflector shield. Magneto can make an electric field inside the bridge.

An EMP would not cause lights to flicker or flare brighter, it would cause them to go dark. Flickering or flaring is caused by some sort of interruption or surge in the power supply. A this is almost certainly caused by the strain on the ship's engines as they strain to maintain the shields under bombardment.

 

I'll ask again, where is there any evidence that Magneto can generate a remote field with no contact? In the movie "X-Men" is is locked in a cell where he has no contact with magnetic materials and is surrounded by glass (an insulator) to prevent him from affecting anything outside the cell. If his powers worked the way you claim they do, these precautions would have been useless.

[Guest sirmethos]

You've missed my point. Think about what the phasers look like. They vary from picture to picture from blue to green to yellow to red. Phasers are light-based weaponry; they use beams of light to transfer huge amounts of energy. What kind of light? Your scans shot that it can be blue light, green light, red light, yellow light, and probably several other shades on the visible part of the spectrum.

 

In other words, your images very clearly show the deflector shields stopping visible light. The shields are transparant when it comes to visible light at a level that would be harmless to the ship, but concentrate that light in a laser or a phaser and they will stop it.

 

Magneto can send visible light at the ship, just not with enough amplitude to do him any good.

You've missed my point.

Is the Enterprise visible when it has its shields up, or not?   If the answer is yes(and it is), then visible light clearly passes through the shields.  If it didn't, then the Enterprise would not be visible.

 

Visible light is just another kind of EM energy. I.e. something that Magneto could essentially use as a carrier wave, to influence the EM energy inside the shields.

 

Summary: The shields do nothing to stop Magneto from ripping the crew apart.

 

If he were to try a direct brute force approach, then he would have to actually overpower the shields, but he doesn't have to do that.

 

I'll ask again, where is there any evidence that Magneto can generate a remote field with no contact? In the movie "X-Men" is is locked in a cell where he has no contact with magnetic materials and is surrounded by glass (an insulator) to prevent him from affecting anything outside the cell. If his powers worked the way you claim they do, these precautions would have been useless.

Movies =/= comics.

 

In the movie, Magneto is essentially powerless when he's trapped in the glass/rubber cell.  In the comics, Magneto has on multiple occasions, manipulated non-magnetic(and non-metallic) materials.

 

I.e. a useless argument.

[Guest force_echo]

I'll ask again, where is there any evidence that Magneto can generate a remote field with no contact? In the movie "X-Men" is is locked in a cell where he has no contact with magnetic materials and is surrounded by glass (an insulator) to prevent him from affecting anything outside the cell. If his powers worked the way you claim they do, these precautions would have been useless.

I'm actually glad you brought this up, because in AvX, he was placed in a completely insulating cell, and was able to take a metal key. Human skin and bone is insulating, yet he was able to rip Adamantium from Wolverine's bone and manipulate the iron in various people's blood. For that matter, the iron core in Avalon (another island Magneto lifted besides M), despite being surrounded by hundreds of meters of thick dirt, concrete, etc. Not only that, he can lift magnetic objects while standing right next to them or at a vector that doesn't coincide with magnetic field lines, he can change the velocity of a charged particle using magnetism, he can manipulate metal at a subatomic level innately (not possible with magnetic field lines), and more. He has an innate control with metal, as explicitly stated in the Marvel Universe Handbook, and can "manipulate and has comprehensive control over metal".

[Guest force_echo]

Right, sure they are. That's why they were launched from the US into Genosha, because they weren't INTERCONTINENTAL ballistic missiles.

 

They're not ballistic missiles at all. An ICBM has a short engine burn time and then momentum and gravity get it to the target. After the initial burn it's effective a thrown object. That's why they're called "ballistic" from the Greek word balleo (to throw.) Ballistic missiles are incapable of approaching a target at low altitudes, they rise to near orbital altitudes and drop from there. Here's an image of a 

 

Cruise missiles operate on a different principal. They use a constant engine burn and wing-like protrusions to achieve powered flight. They are designed to approach a target at low altitude and very fast.

 

The missiles in your scan are clearly using powered flight to approach their target at a low altitude. They are cruise missiles. 

 

 

Actually, heat is the average kinetic energy of molecules. It is not radiation at all, it does radiate, because the electrons of the heated material go into higher energy states and back down releasing photons, otherwise known as black body radiation, but heat is definitely not radiation.

 

Got me on a technicality, of course what Magneto would need to control would technically not be heat either but thermal radiation. Unless that has been mis-named, Magneto's problem is containing radiation.

 

It honestly doesn't matter if it "makes sense". It's canon. Go send a letter to the people in charge of Star Trek yields.

 

So the canon is infallable and must be accepted literally and uncritically? This reminds me of debating Fundamentalists.  

 

Here's the thing, you quoted 5 (IIRC) canon sources and none of them agree. Of course, they're all canon so they all have to be considered equally valid and none of them can be questioned. What do you do then, arbitrarily pick one and ignore the others?

 

I think we're coming at this from two different perspectives. I don't care about winning a debate, I want to find a way for things to make sense. You seem to take the opposite approach.  

 

Also, you're talking about conventional acceleration. Star Trek ships, I think, use warp drives, which manipulate space time, to go relativistic speeds.

 

At sublight velocities (which I was talking about) they use "impulse engines" which are distinct from warp drive. They are conventional engines and do not manipulate spacetime.

 

Also, another thing I left out for some reason, he can absorb electromagnetic energy. First phaser shot, he gets supercharged, uses it to power his shields. Unstoppable. Even if they were in the Petawatt range, current Iron Man, whose repulsors go into the high petawatt range (Invincible Iron Man 25) directly stated that he had no way of getting past Magneto's shields (AvX Battles). He literally had to channel the entire magnetic field of Jupiter to defeat Magneto. Another thing, he was able to manipulate Adamantium, a material with tensile strength that has withstood planet-destroying blasts and the like. 

 

That is an interesting argument. Do you have a scan or other evidence? If so, he could win.

 

He can use lasers and stuff. Complete control of the E/M spectrum. Which would also let him bypass any electromagnetic scanning procedures the Enterprise has btw.

 

I don't know what you're talking about here. Are you saying that he could make himself invisible to their sensors?

 

You need confirmation that he can manipulate metal at a source without sending a ray? That's just how his powers work, he can control metal (and matter in general to some extent) at a subatomic level.

 

By projecting a magnetic field, unless you're saying that he does this without magnetism.

 

He controls metal where the metal is, there has been nothing to indicate otherwise. He was able to affect Iron Man's armor through his force field/ energy shielding until Iron Man activated his magnetic flux shielding in The Avengers.

 

This is a good point. He can penetrate some types of force fields but not others. The question is whether the Enterprise shielding has the same qualities as Iron Man's magnetic flux shielding. The fact that the Enterprise can survive the EMP of a nearby thermonuclear weapon and natural "magnetic storms" without any apparent issues suggests that they do. For that matter, the EMP from a photon torpedo detonating would be huge and we never see the ship's systems going down because of this.

 

In fact, you go ahead and show proof that he's sending some kind of invisible magnetic ray to the target, instead of just manipulating it innately on sight (which is what it seems like on literally every single occasion he's manipulated metal), even though it's been mentioned multiple times that he has an innate subatomic link to metal.

 

That's how magnetism works. In nature it does one of two things, it either pulls an object or pushes it away, depending on polarity. A Magnet does this by generating a magnetic field that physically originates in the magnet and physically contacts the object. The connection between the magnet and the object is invisible to the naked eye, but it is very much a physical connection.

 

A good way to illustrate this would be to dangle a metal bolt from a string. If you hold a magnet near it, the bolt will move toward the magnet. If you put a barrier that acts as an insulator between the bolt, the attraction is broken because the physical contact is broken.

 

If Magneto is using magnetism to affect things around him, then the magnetic field he generates has to make physical contact with it. If an insulating barrier is placed between him and the object, he cannot affect it... at least not with magnetism.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be saying that he's using some force other than magnetism--some force that doesn't behave like magnetism at all--to do these things. Is that so? If it is, you need to explain what that force is and give some idea of how it operates. But if he's using magnetism, I'm right.

 

Considering that he can affect things on the other side of the planet, I'm fairly confident he can manipulate the missiles, or the Enterprise itself at a distance to where he won't be injured by the effects.

 

Unfortunately, being confident is not the same thing as either evidence or a solid, logical argument.  

 

There have actually been two good arguments made on your side. The wormhole thing would let Magneto get on board, and then nothing could stop him. I'd still like to know a little more about this, like why it appears that he has only ever used it twice, but I'm leaning toward a Magneto victory because of this argument.

 

The other is the one you mentioned in this post. If Magneto can absorb an energy attack in the high petawatt range and use them to amplify his own powers, he has a real advantage. It isn't 100% decisive because the Enterprise has beaten seemingly unbeatable enemies before, but it is would be enough for a probable victory.

You do realize that many ICBMs use final stage thrusters to precision guide their targets? I'm sure the US Govt's physicists are extraordinary, but I'm also sure that they would put in some machanisms in place to direct the missile into tactical strikes, instead of letting it freefall completely into an area. Also, the fact is that those missiles were fired from the US, which is about 10,000 miles out of a long distance cruise missile's range.

 

What? No, that is completely wrong. The actual heat is what's dangerous, not thermal radiation.

 

Yes, actually. Because if we debated science against the canon nothing at all would be reconciled. And it doesn't matter which yield you use, they all come out to the same effect.

 

Scans that he can absorb energy? It's a stated part of his powers. In the Handbook, under E/M spectrum manipulation it states "He can shoot and absorb bolts of electricity and other forms of electromagnetic radiation or energy, create enough intense heat as infrared radiation to level a city, and become invisible by deflecting visible light around his body."

 

Yes, if their sensors are E/M based in nature, which I'm pretty sure they are.

 

See my other response.

 

Iron Man's shielding was specifically designed by him to disrupt Magneto's energy, as in, it actively does something to Magneto, it's not an EMP shield, and you have nothing at all to prove that Star Trek deflector shields function in the same way.

 

No, I'm saying that Magneto does a whole lot of things that are completely scientifically implausible.

 

You're right, it's a hunch based on the fact that space is large that they are fighting over a fairly vast distance. Then again, as the setup doesn't specify, you have no evidence to refute my claim either, we don't know if a proton torpedo going off close to the Enterprise, or the Engine overload, would affect Magneto or not.

 

It doesn't really matter, because you have no good arguments on your side. Star Trek phasers aren't at petawatt levels, unfortunately for you, Magneto can create magnetic fields inside of objects, and the Enterprise is screwed within a couple seconds.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

You've missed my point.

Is the Enterprise visible when it has its shields up, or not?   If the answer is yes(and it is), then visible light clearly passes through the shields.  If it didn't, then the Enterprise would not be visible.

 

I've already agreed that visible light passes through the shields.

 

Visible light is just another kind of EM energy. I.e. something that Magneto could essentially use as a carrier wave, to influence the EM energy inside the shields.

 

Summary: The shields do nothing to stop Magneto from ripping the crew apart.

 

Okay, I see what you're saying. I'm assuming that he can generate or manipulate light through magnetism and you're assuming that, as far as he's concerned, light is just another form of electromagnetisn that he could control directly. 

 

I can see how you might be right, though I'm not aware of any time when Magneto has used his powers in this way. If hasn't it's an interesting, but purely theoretical possiblity.

If he were to try a direct brute force approach, then he would have to actually overpower the shields, but he doesn't have to do that.

 

Movies =/= comics.

 

In the movie, Magneto is essentially powerless when he's trapped in the glass/rubber cell.  In the comics, Magneto has on multiple occasions, manipulated non-magnetic(and non-metallic) materials.

 

I.e. a useless argument.

 

You make it sound as if it's either one extreme or the other. Either insulation/non-magnetic materials automatically stop Magneto from using his powers at all or Magneto has full use of his powers and insulation/non-magnetic materials make no difference whatsoever.

 

Actually, when you use a powerful enough field, even materials that are normally non-magnetic will behave as if they were under a really intense field. That's the principle illustrated by NASA's "anti-gravity" mouse experiments. They haven't actually affected gravity but have created a localized field so powerful that it can levitate mice. materialsIt's not so black and white. 

 

So, it's not that an insulative barrier is useless against Magneto, only that he's really strong. He's operating at greatly reduced efficiency when he's working with non-magnetic materials or through an insulative barrier, but he's so powerful that he still gets impressive results. It would take an immensely effective insulative barrier to block his powers.

 

Like a starship's deflector shields.   

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

You do realize that many ICBMs use final stage thrusters to precision guide their targets? I'm sure the US Govt's physicists are extraordinary, but I'm also sure that they would put in some machanisms in place to direct the missile into tactical strikes, instead of letting it freefall completely into an area. Also, the fact is that those missiles were fired from the US, which is about 10,000 miles out of a long distance cruise missile's range.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. That doesn't change the fact that the missile's essential motion is ballistic. It flies in a high parabolic arc, not in a low, flat trajectory like a cruise missile.

 

What? No, that is completely wrong. The actual heat is what's dangerous, not thermal radiation.

 

The thermal radiation is one of the primary ways in which the heat is transferred. In space, where Magneto is fighting the Enterprise, it is the way the heat would be transmitted.

 

Yes, actually. Because if we debated science against the canon nothing at all would be reconciled. And it doesn't matter which yield you use, they all come out to the same effect.

 

I agree that pure science against the canon would show that most of their ideas don't work in the real world, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there has to be some sort of internal consistency in the pseudo-science or what we see on the screen makes no sense. If a ship's shields can take multiple hits from photon torpedoes that each have a yield of 64.4 megatons, then a 1000 megawatt energy beam would have about as much effect on them as a bb gun on tank armor, but the Enterprise's phasers do significant damage to ship's shields. The evidence, both visual and statements of characters, shows that ship's phasers are similar in power to photon torpedoes.

 

That gives us a choice. Either the information for the yield of the phasers (one of them) is right and the photon torpedoes are much less powerful, or the information on the torpedoes is right and the phasers are much more powerful.

 

The information for the photon torpedoes is consistent and based on real-world science. The information about the phasers is highly inconsistent and appears to be arbitrarily shosen numbers. It's simple to see which is the more reliable information.

 

Scans that he can absorb energy? It's a stated part of his powers. In the Handbook, under E/M spectrum manipulation it states "He can shoot and absorb bolts of electricity and other forms of electromagnetic radiation or energy, create enough intense heat as infrared radiation to level a city, and become invisible by deflecting visible light around his body."

 

I'm looking for scans showing he can absorb energy on the levels we're talking about. That Magneto can absorb EM energy is a given as you say. That this means he can absorb the level of energy a statship can put out is not. I have a sponge that can absorb water. It would be silly of me to assume it can absorb the Mississippi.

 

Yes, if their sensors are E/M based in nature, which I'm pretty sure they are.

 

You may be right. He was able to hide Asteroid M from earth based detection systems. Of course the Enterprise sensors are much more advanced. I can't find much more about how they work other than there are active and passive sensors. Passive would be hard to beat if he was using his powers. He'd have to have some way of hiding his magnetic field. Active projects some sort of "sensor beam" but I don't know what the nature of that. It's a possibility but a hard one to evaluate without more information. 

 

Iron Man's shielding was specifically designed by him to disrupt Magneto's energy, as in, it actively does something to Magneto, it's not an EMP shield, and you have nothing at all to prove that Star Trek deflector shields function in the same way.

 

No, but I have demonstrated several times that they protect against powerful EMPs.

 

No, I'm saying that Magneto does a whole lot of things that are completely scientifically implausible.

 

Fair enough, but you haven't demonstrated that this is one of them. It's your interpretation, which is inconsistent with real world magnetism. If you can present evidence that Marvel agrees with your interpretation, you win the point. If you can't, my interpretation, which is consistent with real world magnetism, is more reasonable.

 

You're right, it's a hunch based on the fact that space is large that they are fighting over a fairly vast distance. Then again, as the setup doesn't specify, you have no evidence to refute my claim either, we don't know if a proton torpedo going off close to the Enterprise, or the Engine overload, would affect Magneto or not.

 

Yeah, I'm assuming he would be in visual distance but that is an assumption.

 

It doesn't really matter, because you have no good arguments on your side. Star Trek phasers aren't at petawatt levels, unfortunately for you, Magneto can create magnetic fields inside of objects, and the Enterprise is screwed within a couple seconds.

 

LOL, when unable to produce good evidence, just declare yourself the winner. An audacious strategy.