Magneto vs The Enterprise

[Guest force_echo]

You do realize that many ICBMs use final stage thrusters to precision guide their targets? I'm sure the US Govt's physicists are extraordinary, but I'm also sure that they would put in some machanisms in place to direct the missile into tactical strikes, instead of letting it freefall completely into an area. Also, the fact is that those missiles were fired from the US, which is about 10,000 miles out of a long distance cruise missile's range.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. That doesn't change the fact that the missile's essential motion is ballistic. It flies in a high parabolic arc, not in a low, flat trajectory like a cruise missile.

 

What? No, that is completely wrong. The actual heat is what's dangerous, not thermal radiation.

 

The thermal radiation is one of the primary ways in which the heat is transferred. In space, where Magneto is fighting the Enterprise, it is the way the heat would be transmitted.

 

Yes, actually. Because if we debated science against the canon nothing at all would be reconciled. And it doesn't matter which yield you use, they all come out to the same effect.

 

I agree that pure science against the canon would show that most of their ideas don't work in the real world, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there has to be some sort of internal consistency in the pseudo-science or what we see on the screen makes no sense. If a ship's shields can take multiple hits from photon torpedoes that each have a yield of 64.4 megatons, then a 1000 megawatt energy beam would have about as much effect on them as a bb gun on tank armor, but the Enterprise's phasers do significant damage to ship's shields. The evidence, both visual and statements of characters, shows that ship's phasers are similar in power to photon torpedoes.

 

That gives us a choice. Either the information for the yield of the phasers (one of them) is right and the photon torpedoes are much less powerful, or the information on the torpedoes is right and the phasers are much more powerful.

 

The information for the photon torpedoes is consistent and based on real-world science. The information about the phasers is highly inconsistent and appears to be arbitrarily shosen numbers. It's simple to see which is the more reliable information.

 

Scans that he can absorb energy? It's a stated part of his powers. In the Handbook, under E/M spectrum manipulation it states "He can shoot and absorb bolts of electricity and other forms of electromagnetic radiation or energy, create enough intense heat as infrared radiation to level a city, and become invisible by deflecting visible light around his body."

 

I'm looking for scans showing he can absorb energy on the levels we're talking about. That Magneto can absorb EM energy is a given as you say. That this means he can absorb the level of energy a statship can put out is not. I have a sponge that can absorb water. It would be silly of me to assume it can absorb the Mississippi.

 

Yes, if their sensors are E/M based in nature, which I'm pretty sure they are.

 

You may be right. He was able to hide Asteroid M from earth based detection systems. Of course the Enterprise sensors are much more advanced. I can't find much more about how they work other than there are active and passive sensors. Passive would be hard to beat if he was using his powers. He'd have to have some way of hiding his magnetic field. Active projects some sort of "sensor beam" but I don't know what the nature of that. It's a possibility but a hard one to evaluate without more information. 

 

Iron Man's shielding was specifically designed by him to disrupt Magneto's energy, as in, it actively does something to Magneto, it's not an EMP shield, and you have nothing at all to prove that Star Trek deflector shields function in the same way.

 

No, but I have demonstrated several times that they protect against powerful EMPs.

 

No, I'm saying that Magneto does a whole lot of things that are completely scientifically implausible.

 

Fair enough, but you haven't demonstrated that this is one of them. It's your interpretation, which is inconsistent with real world magnetism. If you can present evidence that Marvel agrees with your interpretation, you win the point. If you can't, my interpretation, which is consistent with real world magnetism, is more reasonable.

 

You're right, it's a hunch based on the fact that space is large that they are fighting over a fairly vast distance. Then again, as the setup doesn't specify, you have no evidence to refute my claim either, we don't know if a proton torpedo going off close to the Enterprise, or the Engine overload, would affect Magneto or not.

 

Yeah, I'm assuming he would be in visual distance but that is an assumption.

 

It doesn't really matter, because you have no good arguments on your side. Star Trek phasers aren't at petawatt levels, unfortunately for you, Magneto can create magnetic fields inside of objects, and the Enterprise is screwed within a couple seconds.

 

LOL, when unable to produce good evidence, just declare yourself the winner. An audacious strategy.

What's more likely? That an ICBM has a different approach trajectory, or that a Cruise Missile got 10,000 miles tacked on to its range? That's obviously not a cruise missile.

 

Well the tonnage on the torpedos are given by real world science, not canon. And visually, a number of things happen. The Star Wars movies had their plasma bolts travel relatively slowly to prolong the effect. In canon, a part of the bolt is actually laser light, meaning that the entire cohesive bolt goes the speed of light. Stated canon goes over visual effect.

 

Yeah, pretty much every space sensor known to man relies on E/M radiation. And the fact that Star Trek Sensors can be disrupted by radiation and a planets ionosphere leans pretty heavily on some kind of E/M based scanning technology.

 

That's great. Too bad a) that doesn't show defense against a magnetic field in the first place (just an electric one) and even if it did, it doesn't matter, Iron Man's suit is hardened against EMPs as well, much stronger ones than the Enterprise.

 

You're right, it is easy. The arbitrarily chosen numbers. Because they're canon. End of story. Like I said, have a problem, take it up with whoever made Star Trek. By the way, 60 megatons is the maximum theoretical yield given by E=MC^2. In reality, a vast amount of energy from matter-antimatter reactions bleed off as positron and neutrino radiation.

 

I would assume he can absorb energy at the same rate he can expend it. The only solid absorption feat I remember personally was when he absorbed Storm's lightning fairly easily in Uncanny X-Men.

 

Also, Iron Man, whose repulsors are in the high petawatt range, directly stated he simply did not have a chance at getting past Magneto's force fields in AvX. He has bent, and molded Adamantium. You haven't even acknowledged these feats.

 

I've pointed out plenty of good evidence. You still haven't even responded to my assertion that Magneto can innately control metal and is obviously not using magnetic fields.

[Guest skadoosh]

It really should be confirmed whether Magneto can use one kind of electromagnetic energy as a conduit for another kind, because that seems like a very good, if very niche, winning strategy for him.

 

Also, how much of what the Enterprise has could Magneto actually tank? If they did go all out and fired everything, could he possibly survive the onslaught?

[Indolent]

Yes.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

What's more likely? That an ICBM has a different approach trajectory, or that a Cruise Missile got 10,000 miles tacked on to its range? That's obviously not a cruise missile.

 

You've said several times that it was launched from the US. I'm curious if this was actually shown in the comic or if that's just your interpretation. In the real world the missile would have been deployed from a bomber, a warship, or a submarine.

 

Assuming your statement reflects something that actually happened and not just your interpretation, your question is still pretty easy to answer. A tomahawk cruise missiles in our world has a range of 1550 miles. The idea of a cruise missile with a longer range in the Marvel Universe suggests that the Marvel Comics version of the US has better technology than the real world US. This is pretty much a given.

 

On the other hand, an ICBM that uses powered flight at low altitude is completely impossible because it fails to meet the definition of "ballistic missile." Here's the definition from Merriem Webster.com: 

bal·lis·tic mis·sile  

Noun

A missile with a high, arching trajectory that is initially powered and guided but falls under gravity onto its target.

 

 

Ad here is the definition for a cruise missile:

1. cruise mis·sile  
   Noun

   A low-flying missile that is guided to its target by an on-board computer.

 

The missile in your scan is low-flying. It is powered all the way up the point of detonation. It does not use a high, arching trajectory. It does not rely on gravity to fall onto its target. It doesn't meet any of the criteria to be called a ballistic missile.

 

I know that you want it to be an ICBM because that would allow it to carry a much larger warheady. Let's pretend for a minute that it is. You claim it was fired from North America, so it's a land=based missile. There is currently only one land-based ICBM used by the US military: the Minuteman. It's exact range is classified but the best estimate is 8100 miles. In other words it doesn't have the 10,000 range you said it needs.

 

It has carried several different warheads in its service life but, since 1996, has only carried the W-87 warhead. This is a thermonuclear device with a yield of 475 kilotons. In other words, two of these together would have a yield of less than 1 megaton. That's less than 2% of the yield that you provided for a single photon torpedo.

 

Well the tonnage on the torpedos are given by real world science, not canon. And visually, a number of things happen. The Star Wars movies had their plasma bolts travel relatively slowly to prolong the effect. In canon, a part of the bolt is actually laser light, meaning that the entire cohesive bolt goes the speed of light. Stated canon goes over visual effect.

 

I don't know where you get that rule from but it's silly. It's so rigid you'd have to accept all kinds of absurd things that are blatantly contradicted by the storytelling. But if that's the rule you want to use it, I'll play along.

 

The photon torpedo yield was arrived at by scientific means, and canon trumps science, so the 64.4 megaton yield is out. The Technical Manual says the main phaser banks yield 10,000 megawatts (it's absurdly low, but canon trumps what's reasonable.) The thing is, those 10,000 megawatt phasers are able to split an asteriod the size of earth's moon. Mr. Spock said so in the episode "The Paradise Syndrome." In the real world that would require about 32,000 petawatts to do that, but the Enterprise can do it with 10,000 kilowatts.

 

I'm sure you won't like this argument, but if you're really following the rule you keep citing, you have to accept it. It doesn't matter how absurd a statement is, if it's canon. And I've already demonstrated on this thread that the new movies are part of the the same canon as everything back to the original series. 

 

Thanks. I still don't like this illogical rule of yours, but I can see how useful it is for winning disputes.  

 

Yeah, pretty much every space sensor known to man relies on E/M radiation.

 

And since that's the case in the early 21st century, it logically follows that will also be the case in the late 23rd century.  

 

And the fact that Star Trek Sensors can be disrupted by radiation and a planets ionosphere leans pretty heavily on some kind of E/M based scanning technology.

 

Okay, 

That's great. Too bad a) that doesn't show defense against a magnetic field in the first place (just an electric one) and even if it did, it doesn't matter, Iron Man's suit is hardened against EMPs as well, much stronger ones than the Enterprise.

 

I'll concede there is a possibility that Magneto might be able to hide from the sensors. 

 

You're right, it is easy. The arbitrarily chosen numbers. Because they're canon. End of story. Like I said, have a problem, take it up with whoever made Star Trek. By the way, 60 megatons is the maximum theoretical yield given by E=MC^2. In reality, a vast amount of energy from matter-antimatter reactions bleed off as positron and neutrino radiation.

 

His name was Gene Roddenberry, just FYi.

 

I would assume he can absorb energy at the same rate he can expend it. The only solid absorption feat I remember personally was when he absorbed Storm's lightning fairly easily in Uncanny X-Men.

 

That sounds like a reasonable assumption. 

 

Also, Iron Man, whose repulsors are in the high petawatt range, directly stated he simply did not have a chance at getting past Magneto's force fields in AvX.

 

I'll take your word for it. Not that it matters. The "canon trumps everything" rule has shown that the Enterprise phasers (though only in the megawatt range) do damage as if they were in the exawatt range. Poor Magneto can't possible handle them. 

 

He has bent, and molded Adamantium. You haven't even acknowledged these feats.

 

I'm not denying it, but it yields no usable data. We don't have any hard numbers on the structural strength of Wolverine's adamantium so it's impossible to know what sort of power was required to do this.

 

I've pointed out plenty of good evidence. You still haven't even responded to my assertion that Magneto can innately control metal and is obviously not using magnetic fields.

 

You have a habit of using words like "obviously" to back up statements that are not supported by any evidence. This is speculation on your part and needs no rebuttal.

 

I'm out of town for a while so this will be my last post on this topic.

[Guest force_echo]

What's more likely? That an ICBM has a different approach trajectory, or that a Cruise Missile got 10,000 miles tacked on to its range? That's obviously not a cruise missile.

 

You've said several times that it was launched from the US. I'm curious if this was actually shown in the comic or if that's just your interpretation. In the real world the missile would have been deployed from a bomber, a warship, or a submarine.

 

Assuming your statement reflects something that actually happened and not just your interpretation, your question is still pretty easy to answer. A tomahawk cruise missiles in our world has a range of 1550 miles. The idea of a cruise missile with a longer range in the Marvel Universe suggests that the Marvel Comics version of the US has better technology than the real world US. This is pretty much a given.

 

On the other hand, an ICBM that uses powered flight at low altitude is completely impossible because it fails to meet the definition of "ballistic missile." Here's the definition from Merriem Webster.com: 

bal·lis·tic mis·sile  

Noun

A missile with a high, arching trajectory that is initially powered and guided but falls under gravity onto its target.

 

 

Ad here is the definition for a cruise missile:

1. cruise mis·sile  

   Noun

   A low-flying missile that is guided to its target by an on-board computer.

2.  

 

The missile in your scan is low-flying. It is powered all the way up the point of detonation. It does not use a high, arching trajectory. It does not rely on gravity to fall onto its target. It doesn't meet any of the criteria to be called a ballistic missile.

 

I know that you want it to be an ICBM because that would allow it to carry a much larger warheady. Let's pretend for a minute that it is. You claim it was fired from North America, so it's a land=based missile. There is currently only one land-based ICBM used by the US military: the Minuteman. It's exact range is classified but the best estimate is 8100 miles. In other words it doesn't have the 10,000 range you said it needs.

 

It has carried several different warheads in its service life but, since 1996, has only carried the W-87 warhead. This is a thermonuclear device with a yield of 475 kilotons. In other words, two of these together would have a yield of less than 1 megaton. That's less than 2% of the yield that you provided for a single photon torpedo.

 

Well the tonnage on the torpedos are given by real world science, not canon. And visually, a number of things happen. The Star Wars movies had their plasma bolts travel relatively slowly to prolong the effect. In canon, a part of the bolt is actually laser light, meaning that the entire cohesive bolt goes the speed of light. Stated canon goes over visual effect.

 

I don't know where you get that rule from but it's silly. It's so rigid you'd have to accept all kinds of absurd things that are blatantly contradicted by the storytelling. But if that's the rule you want to use it, I'll play along.

 

The photon torpedo yield was arrived at by scientific means, and canon trumps science, so the 64.4 megaton yield is out. The Technical Manual says the main phaser banks yield 10,000 megawatts (it's absurdly low, but canon trumps what's reasonable.) The thing is, those 10,000 megawatt phasers are able to split an asteriod the size of earth's moon. Mr. Spock said so in the episode "The Paradise Syndrome." In the real world that would require about 32,000 petawatts to do that, but the Enterprise can do it with 10,000 kilowatts.

 

I'm sure you won't like this argument, but if you're really following the rule you keep citing, you have to accept it. It doesn't matter how absurd a statement is, if it's canon. And I've already demonstrated on this thread that the new movies are part of the the same canon as everything back to the original series. 

 

Thanks. I still don't like this illogical rule of yours, but I can see how useful it is for winning disputes.  

 

Yeah, pretty much every space sensor known to man relies on E/M radiation.

 

And since that's the case in the early 21st century, it logically follows that will also be the case in the late 23rd century.  

 

And the fact that Star Trek Sensors can be disrupted by radiation and a planets ionosphere leans pretty heavily on some kind of E/M based scanning technology.

 

Okay, 

That's great. Too bad a) that doesn't show defense against a magnetic field in the first place (just an electric one) and even if it did, it doesn't matter, Iron Man's suit is hardened against EMPs as well, much stronger ones than the Enterprise.

 

I'll concede there is a possibility that Magneto might be able to hide from the sensors. 

 

You're right, it is easy. The arbitrarily chosen numbers. Because they're canon. End of story. Like I said, have a problem, take it up with whoever made Star Trek. By the way, 60 megatons is the maximum theoretical yield given by E=MC^2. In reality, a vast amount of energy from matter-antimatter reactions bleed off as positron and neutrino radiation.

 

His name was Gene Roddenberry, just FYi.

 

I would assume he can absorb energy at the same rate he can expend it. The only solid absorption feat I remember personally was when he absorbed Storm's lightning fairly easily in Uncanny X-Men.

 

That sounds like a reasonable assumption. 

 

Also, Iron Man, whose repulsors are in the high petawatt range, directly stated he simply did not have a chance at getting past Magneto's force fields in AvX.

 

I'll take your word for it. Not that it matters. The "canon trumps everything" rule has shown that the Enterprise phasers (though only in the megawatt range) do damage as if they were in the exawatt range. Poor Magneto can't possible handle them. 

 

He has bent, and molded Adamantium. You haven't even acknowledged these feats.

 

I'm not denying it, but it yields no usable data. We don't have any hard numbers on the structural strength of Wolverine's adamantium so it's impossible to know what sort of power was required to do this.

 

I've pointed out plenty of good evidence. You still haven't even responded to my assertion that Magneto can innately control metal and is obviously not using magnetic fields.

 

You have a habit of using words like "obviously" to back up statements that are not supported by any evidence. This is speculation on your part and needs no rebuttal.

 

I'm out of town for a while so this will be my last post on this topic.

You just defeated your own point. In the Marvel Universe, they have more powerful cruise missiles capable of carrying more weight.

 

First of all, you don't know what the composition and structure of this asteroid is. And second, did Spock ever give any inclination of how much time it would take? Because a 10 gigawatt laser can definitely split such an asteroid given enough time. Especially since "split" is nowhere near "destroy".

 

Yes, he can. More than that, he can penetrate the deflector shield.Even if he has to use a magnetic field to manipulate the metal, the field itself doesn't expend any energy itself unless it does work on The Enterprise. He expends energy to create the field by magnetizing an object (presumably himself, it's unclear how his powers work). The field itself is a change in the properties of space. Deflector Shields haven't ever defended against something like this.

 

Except they can't.

 

Thanks for commenting on the least important part of my comment. The point is that even if we were to use "pure science" as you seem to suggest, the torpedoes are not going to have a yield of 60 megatons, reconciling the canon and what we see.

 

It's near indestructible in the Marvel Universe. 

 

"This is the attempt at recreation of Proto-Adamantium. This is the Adamantium present in Wolverine. It is nearly as strong/durable, but unlike Proto [Adamantium] Primary is possible to be reproduced. Only beings with Godlike powers (such as Rune King Thor) can manipulate Primary Adamantium. Otherwise, it is completely indestructible to all forms of attack."

 

The evidence you still haven't responded to, lol. 

[Guest sirmethos]

Manipulating Wolverine's adamantium is not really a 'feat' of raw power, as much as a 'feat' of control.  He did it by manipulating it on a molecular level, not brute force bending it.

[Guest force_echo]

Well, apparently he doesn't have an innate, molecular control over metal and uses conventional magnetic fields, although that would explain exactly zero of how his powers actually work. So yeah, he has as much raw power as Rune King Thor.