Rumble 14503 Superman vs. Son Goku

[Bergy_Berg]

Thank goodness EF is back up, I've been wondering for days who would win in a fight between these two and I couldn't find anywhere else to get the answer.

[Callisto]

Learn More About

Superman

Read more about Superman at Wikipedia

Official Site: Detective Comics Links: Superman's Wiki Profile DC Database Project: Superman DC's Superman Site

 

Son Goku

Read more about Son Goku at Wikipedia

Official Site: FUNimation Links: Goku Wikipedia Entry DBZGT Legacy My Favorite Games

 

 

[DSkillz]

Soo... the hundreds of times this match-up's been posted here didn't provide enough of an answer for that?

[Guest tomisntblue]

It's sadly fitting that this fight gets put up once the site comes back... 

 

With that said....

 

Here

 

You seriously couldn't go anywhere else for this fight?

[Guest Mr.Wronkite123]

Overplayed fight is overplayed.

[Bergy_Berg]

Soo... the hundreds of times this match-up's been posted here didn't provide enough of an answer for that?

No. I always feel there's more left to debate. And I've never complained about seeing this fight for the thousandth time either, as the arguments on both sides are always refreshing and good-spirited.

[Guest Supes Rulez]

Superman wins. Death Battle.

 

I thought we were done with this fight 

[Bergy_Berg]

Superman wins. Death Battle.

 

I thought we were done with this fight 

3 things:

1. Death battle is certainly fact, anyone who thinks otherwise is certainly a moron. Certainly, Death Battle cannot have it wrong. With absolute certainty this is certain.

 

2. How can you be done with this fight? The only fights more interesting are anything involving batman with prep time. I really love those fights. I should do one where Batman has 20 minutes of prep and then takes on the multiverse, minus other versions of Batman of course.

 

3. It ALWAYS comes down to Superman vs Goku. This fight will haunt your nightmares for the rest of your life.

[Guest Shoggoth breeder]

[Guest sirmethos]

Superman wins easily.

 

Until someone provides an argument for the other side, I'll leave it at that.

[Guest Dinsdale Piranha]

Batman wins this one, easily!

[Venom 2009]

Batman wins this one, easily!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xnnrKpUmI

[Bergy_Berg]

Batman wins this one, easily!

If he had some prep time, like 5 minutes, then it's definitely Batman.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

I'll take the bait and reply

 

 

I saw the Battle of the Gods movie, well part of it and since that is canon, it should be noted that Goku can effectively use Instant Transmission in a battle.

 

This stems from all the comments stating that IT was only used for non battles like traveling. If you watch the movie, Bills is super fast compared to Goku and even he managed to sneak hits (Goku) in to Bill's face.

 

That is a major reason why Goku can escape most energy shots or physical attacks when it seems as he shouldn't.

 

With that I will add a few more things.

 

Superman is the stronger one for sure

Durability goes to Superman

Energy goes to Goku, now you might wonder "geez Superman's eye laser (heat Vision) is hotter than the Sun's core" and yadi yada, but face it guys, thats all he has as far as offensive energy attacks. Goku can use his energy as beams, balls, direct them(guided beams or balls lol), heal, absorb, make shields, mask his energy, use telepathy, telekinesis, self destruct, etc, and those energy shots go through sun's so it is hotter and more powerful than a sun (need proof, watch any movie that ends with a blast hitting the sun, it goes through it and out the other side everytime)

 

Goku's blast go to the sun in a panel or two, signifying that it travels super fast and not just as fast as they fly. In fact energy blasts are always faster than flight speed, it's just that some people are faster than the person shooting it or they teleport.

Now you all might say Superman wins in martial arts since he was trained by various people, but Goku is a street fighter and his fights have depicted him as being a tough sob. Goku might be dumb, but he knows one thing well, and thats fighting. it's almost uncanny as to how well he fights, as his energy and stamina respond to the opponent, so Superman fighting him will make Goku's best come out.

 

Speed goes to Superman, but lets keep it real, you will never see a comic where Superman just takes everyone out in a blur of speed, he usually tangles with people, makes it an epic fight and then wins somehow by with help or he sun dips. So Goku can keep his distance by:

 

IT out of the way, * remember he can go anywhere he has been or can sense, so Goku will not just teleport 5 feet away, he will be like 1000's of yards away and then he can move in.

Instant Kamehameha will be a nice touch.

 

Now as far as damage. Goku can def damage Superman, Superman will damage Goku as well. Goku's punches will send Supes flying like he does other people, but Supes won't die, he will fly back for more. So Goku just needs to hit him away a few times and then shoot him, IT around him and repeat. Goku WILL notices that he cannot hurt him permanantly so he will think of a plan.

 

Superman has gotten knocked out before from far less than solar system attacks so Goku can technically knock him out with his most devastating attack to the side of his head (temple) with a Dragon Punch.

 

All in all I see this as the end result.

 

Goku and Supes tangle, both landing hits, with Goku being slowly defeated, Goku goes all out for his combo attacks and Superman gets beaten back, he rises and then goes for his finishers. Goku fades away and startles Supes wuith a dragon punch to his head, Supes gets knocked down. Goku thinks hes won, but senses Supes still not defeated and then Supes takes him out.

 

simply saying that current Supes and Current Goku are more even then ever, as to before with Superman being overpowered to tow solar systems (I mean really how can you tow one?)

[Bergy_Berg]

No wait, no actual debating! That was never the intention!

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

lol it was more of a joke, I am over this fight just as much as the next man, but still like to step on toes.

[Guest bigballerju]

Death Battle actually explained very well why Superman would win. If people want Superman vs Goku they need to just go watch that now.

[Guest sirmethos]

I've been bored for a while, without any good debates, so I'll bite with Pymp's comment

 

"it should be noted that Goku can effectively use Instant Transmission in a battle."

 

I don't think it has ever been claimed that he couldn't.  What has been (correctly)claimed, is that it would be useless in a fight against Superman, due to the insane gap in speed.

 

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUkZqGMS20c

 

Shows it quite nicely(0:27 - 0:35).  Goku uses it to dodge one of Bills' attacks, and while Bills is trying to figure out where he went, Goku gets a surprise hit in on him. Then Goku uses IT to dodge the next attack again, and tries attacking again, this time Bills is not surprised, and easily dodges Goku's hit.

 

 

Now, to put that scenario over with Superman in the place of Bills.  Superman's enhanced senses, would mean that he would know where Goku is, the instant(no pun intended) Goku re-appears, so Goku wouldn't be able to get the surprise hit in.  And Superman's speed is superior enough, that he could easily dodge any attack from Goku.

 

 

"Goku can use his energy as beams, balls, direct them(guided beams or balls lol), heal, absorb, make shields, mask his energy, use telepathy, telekinesis, self destruct, etc,"

 

1. I don't suppose you have any examples of Goku using his energy to heal?  Or absorb energy?

 

2. When Goku masks his energy, he is suppressing it, and is effectively unable to use it in any other way, until he stops suppressing it.

 

3. Goku's use of Telepathy is effectively useless in battle.  Not to mention that Superman has some pretty good resistance against TP.

 

And finally 4. While it's true that Goku can use his Ki in a wide variety of ways, his energy attacks aren't fast enough to actually make contact with Superman, and doesn't have enough raw power to put him down.

 

 

"those energy shots go through sun's so it is hotter and more powerful than a sun"

 

That an energy shot goes through a sun, does not necessarily mean it is hotter, or more powerful, than a sun.

 

If you want to make the claim that Goku's attacks carries more raw destructive power than a sun, you'll need a better argument(and preferably proof) than that.

 

 

"Now you all might say Superman wins in martial arts since he was trained by various people, but Goku is a street fighter and his fights have depicted him as being a tough sob."

 

Actually, Superman tends to brawl, rather than use his training.  But considering the sheer physical difference between these two, he won't need his training.

 

 

"Speed goes to Superman, but lets keep it real, you will never see a comic where Superman just takes everyone out in a blur of speed, he usually tangles with people, makes it an epic fight and then wins somehow by with help or he sun dips."

 

Superman tends to keep his effective power level, at a point that fits his opponent.  I.e. holding back with his strength so he doesn't splatter them all over the surrounding area the first time he hits them.

 

Goku, as you keep arguing, is powerful and skilled enough, to get Superman to tap into some of that restrained power, and use a higher level than he usually would.

 

If you read Superman comics, you would notice that he does actually use his speed, but only against those enemies that are powerful enough to warrant it.  The opponents he doesn't use his speed against are, for the most part, those he doesn't need it against.

 

So, either he doesn't need it, in which case you're right about him not using it.  Or you're right about him needing it, in which case, he will use it.

 

 

Finally, the first time Superman uses his Heat Vision, the battle is over.  Unlike the DBZ energy attacks, Heat Vision actually moves at the speed of light.  Something Goku is not fast enough to react to, and dodge.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

Thanks for biting the bait Sirmethos, being that there is no real discussions on CBUB right now I wanted to stir the pot. 

 I am a fanboy, as I have previously held and kept my arguments like an old man trying to preach of what once was and once held in esteem. I grew up in a certain age with a certain mentality. I had my convictions as a pre-teenager and teenager about who would win vs various fictional characters. I was a nerd, but one that was not a typical one. In my heart no one could beat Magneto, just like no one could beat Hulk Hogan, and yet they have both lost. I felt sad and angry when Ultimate Warrior beat Hulk, it was like rooting for your hero that you felt was the best, but yet he/she lost. Hurts your very fibers. With that, Superman does win; for every reason you stated and the simple fact that Goku needs air to survive since he cannot live in space. The rest of what I am writing is jargon so read at your own discretion.

 

I do not think that Goku would lose in a one shot. Not that he A) can't lose in a one shot, but that Superman as a character wouldn't kill him like that, and C)if the writers did write this as canon, it would be a huge battle and then have Superman win, with Goku stating something about needing to train more to fight yet again some other day.

 

Lets get down to the grind though.

 

Instant Transmission

We agree that Goku can use it effectively in battle, good.

You state that Goku as shown in the video would use Instant Transmission, but it would be rendered useless as Superman's speed and senses are too great that 1 he would hear Goku "appear" again and 2 his speed to catch up to him is too fast that when Goku does re-appear, he would be hit? Is this correct?

You've mentioned this scenario before with Nightcrawler vs Quick Silver, saying the same thing.

 

If you watch the video again, you see Goku fighting a downhill battle, getting more damage than him giving damage back and when he does land a hit, it does not slow Bills down.

Goku uses IT and avoids a charging Bills appearing behind him instantly (notice the water drops staying still, this has to signify that they are moving at speeds that near light  as they do like 40 punches and kicks in that time(numbers aren't confirmed))

and managing to hit him, despite him having the greater speed, reflexes and in this case martial arts skills. Goku tries using IT again and we see Bills "knowing" his location and attacking back, making Goku step back and block/evade Bills attacks.

 

Your argument is that Superman's hearing is that good to be able to detect the ripples of displaced air when Goku appears, that he(superman) would already know where Goku would be and instantly punch him out. My counter is "when Goku is moving that fast, the noise of the air being displaced would take longer for Superman to hear it, (sound travels at 770mph) then it would for Goku to re-appear and move out of the way."

 

The reason Bills hits him on the second attempt of IT is not for hearing him, but for sensing his energy which is a lot more efficient than any other sense. Goku not being as powerful can still sense energy in real time over vast distances. That is some sort of spatial awareness in my opinion. He has a constant sense of all energy similar to Magneto being able to see things in the way Neo sees the matrix (sorry can't explain it ) That mixed with his telepathy and Goku has one more than one occasion been able to sense the actions of other people and know their predicaments, or scenarios they are in. (Tien vs Cell, Goku can sense the fight and "see" the battle, either he is using telepathy and has a first person view of the place, or he is using his energy to see the scene in an over-world view, or he is using his telepathy and combined with his energy sensing ability to paint a picture of what is going on, in which case he has a constant picture of the environment as bats do when using echo location. In this case ki location, but without the limitation of sound as the measure of which you can send and receive the information. Given that Goku can sense energy galaxies away and even inter-dimensions.

 

If you watch the video further you see Goku hitting Bills again with a third IT attempt and making Bills angry. This shows that someone that is confirmed to have used only 70% of his power which in DBZ means only 70% of his speed, strength, energy, skills, was still hit numerous times to piss him off. That was due to his battle instincts and experience fighting people that are stronger and faster than him. :59 shows Goku sneaking up on him again.

 

by the way at this point I'm just doing this for fun and for the sake of keeping this world alive.

[Guest Shockwave]

Bergy_Berg as Kaiba asked Yugi during their duel:

 

ARE YOU TAKING THE PISS?

[Venom 2009]

Super Saiyan God Goku would win this.

[Guest sirmethos]

"when Goku is moving that fast, the noise of the air being displaced would take longer for Superman to hear it, (sound travels at 770mph) then it would for Goku to re-appear and move out of the way."

1. If Goku uses IT to a location close enough to use physical attacks, Goku will be pushing the air in front of him, including the vibrations in that air.  If Goku uses IT to a more distant location, then there is plenty of time for Superman to pick up his location through other means.

2. Superman has, on more than one occasion, showed that his senses defies the laws of physics.  For example, hearing a gunshot from the other side of the city, and still arriving in time to block the bullet before it hits the target.  Or heaving Lois scream as she starts to fall down, at the other side of the city, if not the other side of the country(or more), and still arriving in time to save her before she splatters all over the ground.  Or the always popular, being able to hear sound in space.



"The reason Bills hits him on the second attempt of IT is not for hearing him"

I never claimed it was.  I said "Goku uses IT to dodge the next attack again, and tries attacking again, this time Bills is not surprised, and easily dodges Goku's hit.".  Nothing about Bills using his hearing in that.


"Super Saiyan God Goku would win this."

He really wouldn't.

Just like lower levels of Goku's transformations, he doesn't have the speed, reaction time, or durability to win.


Or in other words, Superman is fast enough to hit Goku whenever he wants, and powerful enough(via either raw strength, or his Heat Vision) to take him out with a single full powered blow.

[Guest Dr. Pymp(mex)]

There have been times when the stronger and more powerful person still loses. Goku is not that weak to have Superman brush him off. You under estimate his durability. Remember that his ki allows him to be tough as a rock.(not just a rock, but you catch my drift)

Trunk then demonstrates this when using a sword and Goku blocks it with his finger.

Also again when Frieza's Death Beam bounces off him. Mind you that attack is meant to destroy planets as he uses it to easily disrupt the planet's core. He could have easily just used more energy to make that a planet busting attack.

 

If you answer this for me I will concede. (By the way I agree that Superman will win, given that he has any and every power imaginable lol hearing sound in space) And by concede I will clarify that I mean that I will return one day with this match up Muahahaa.

 

If Superman can hear that well and react that fast, and move that fast how is the following possible?

 

Batman launching him via judo throw

Anything on Earth hitting him, I mean he is 10010101 times faster than light, what is a missile, gun shot, punch, etc going to do, yet these things have all hit him and even more times when people catch him by surprise. I do not mean they tricked him, I mean they snuck up behind him and punched him or attacked him.

 

If you don't answer PIS or Plot Devices, or that it was another universe and still have a valid reason why he can be that powerful and be so vulnerable at the same time, I will concede. 

 

All I am saying is that Superman tangles with weak people and still struggles sometimes (except when he goes nuts on them) and yet Goku being skilled enough and powerful enough (in comparison to the weaker guys that fight Superman and contend) is not able to even so much as look at Superman?

 

I don't agree

[AVP vs The Terminator]

Dinsdale is like the only one who took this thread for what it was supposed to be, lol.

[Indolent]

BERGY WHAT THE HELL