The Marvel Zombies VS The Black Lanterns

[Guest Dark Ranger X]

EDIT: Whoops. Flash isn't a Black Lantern. They're out.

 

Whoops, check your facts again.

 

I didn't say 'The Flash' insinuating Wally or Barry. I said the Flashes. Professor Zoom (the Reverse Flash) is a Black Lantern, and was pretty much Wally's biggest threat, save an unrelated character named Zoom.

 

Also, you have Johnny Quick, another speedster. As all speedsters, he not only moved super quick but had all the quick thinking and movement that came along with it.

 

Unless you have another "whoops" to counter with, Marvel Man ?

[Marvel Man]

Whoops, check your facts again.

 

I didn't say 'The Flash' insinuating Wally or Barry.

I apologize. When people say Flash, I think of this guy:

 

 

My bad.

 

I said the Flashes. Professor Zoom (the Reverse Flash) is a Black Lantern, and was pretty much Wally's biggest threat, save an unrelated character named Zoom.

True & Noted. However, Prof Zoom's powers were perfect against Flash. By using time, he is/was able to achieve fast speeds without actually tapping into the speed force.

 

However, against the Phoenix (or a high cosmic), he's a low level time manipulator.

 

Also, you have Johnny Quick, another speedster. As all speedsters, he not only moved super quick but had all the quick thinking and movement that came along with it.

True, but how does he compare with the Flash? Is he even FTL?

 

Honestly, even if he was, how could he defeat people like Thanos, Firelord, or Phoenix?

[Guest boston_celtics]

What is speed and low-level time manipulation going to do against a being with complete control over reality?

[Guest Joecorp]

I still stand by the fact that The Spectre could definitely take on The Phoenix and win. Throw in Nekron and Black Hand, I'd say she's toast.

[Guest Dark Ranger X]

I apologize. When people say Flash, I think of this guy:

 

 

My bad.

 

 

True & Noted. However, Prof Zoom's powers were perfect against Flash. By using time, he is/was able to achieve fast speeds without actually tapping into the speed force.

 

However, against the Phoenix (or a high cosmic), he's a low level time manipulator.

 

 

True, but how does he compare with the Flash? Is he even FTL?

 

Honestly, even if he was, how could he defeat people like Thanos, Firelord, or Phoenix?

 

This is why I love this site. I get to match my love of DC against people who love Marvel, etc. I'm not being sarcastic either, so please don't think that I am

 

See, I suppose you could call me a DC fanboy, even though I try to come across as impartial. I only know of Firelord, Phoenix, Thanos, etc due to what I've read or seen on Electric Ferret, etc.

 

I also apologise if the following doesn't make sense. We had a send off for a workmate tonight who'd been at the Police Station for 4 1/2 years, and he's transferring, so I've kinda has a bit to drink.

 

To me, this fight in general is somewhat of a wild card. I know Phoenix is a godlike Psionic, but in all honesty all a Black Lantern has to do to turn any person/humanoid/alien being is to bite them (assuming said Zombie's skin can actually be penetrated). The BL "virus" (I use "" because I don't really know how else to classify it) infects a being (albeit slowly) once they're bitten. Once Nekron (who, if a being is undead or a variant thereof) can sense a being is at the stage of being able to be controlled, he will essentially throw them a Power Ring, and they retain the abilities they had when they were alive.

 

Take Kal-L for example. He was an alternate Superman. Now, he's (well, was, but he's on the roster so he counts) a Black Lantern. So, imagine Superman with a Power Ring. He can create all the constructs his undead willpower allows (and Kal-El has been known to resist some mega powerful psionics, so I imagine Kal L is the same), and then he also falls back on all his Superpowers as Superman. Also, if you didn't read DC One Million, Superman Prime had a Power Ring, and he was able to crush Solaris, a sentient star, with ease (Solaris was rated the 2nd most powerful weapon in in the 853rd century - can't remember what the first was, but the 3rd was Starman one million's rod; could generate hotter temps than the sun). I would think an undead Superman with a power ring was also this powerful.

 

He's not the only powerhouse. There's a large number of BL's who, as BL's, are essentially Green Lanterns with their predominant powers to fall back on. Take Professor Zoom for example. He was arguably Wally West's biggest threat, because he was a Thawne*. So now, he's a Flash who not only has near light-speed powers (it's debatable if he was more powerful than Wally; Wally mostly held back because when he was the Flash early on [he learnt to control his powers awesomely later], Wally couldn't really couldn't accelerate into the Speed Force without something catastrophic happening), but can also create constucts with the Black Power Ring by thinking at near-light speeds. Then, throw in the fact that unless the Power Ring is completely and utterly seperated from the host (keep in mind it would have to be by pretty much a godlike power), it'll regen the host.

 

Then, keep in mind, with every heart a BL claim, the power of the Black Power Rings increases by by .01 (or something like that), which in turn makes Nekron stronger. Also, if one BL takes a heart, ALL the power rings get stronger. Nekron can be considered low power from the get go, yet he can already control the undead easily. Imagine what'll happen if the BL's start taking down the low level Marvel Zombies, and claiming their hearts. Nekron's power will increase by a bucketload; it's hard to fathom exactly what he can do when he's beyond low power. The reason Nekron plays a big role in this has recently been established; he's pretty much the reason the BL's exist. Whilst Blackhand is their "avatar", Nekron is their leader.

 

See, the thing about Black Hand (i think?) is he's still alive, and has the ability to control any power ring on the field. So, if he saw anyone as a threat, he'd be able to tell all the power rings to home in on said thread.

 

Please don't think of me as anything other than impartial. I'd like to think I was given the role of Admin because I can see posts objectively. So, Marvel Man, Boston Celtics, etc. If I offended you, I apologise. I'd just like to think that the Black Lantern's would be a bloody good match against the Marvel Zombies.

 

*The Thawne family proved to be a match for the Flashes all through time. Cobalt Blue (one of Wally's biggest enemies) started the trend; he was a Thawne who had a gem that essentially nullified the speed force and rendered the Flash powerless. Wally only beat him by going back through time and sacrificing himself into the speed force, before masquerading as Professor Zoom later on and coming back. Whilst he had access to the nullifying gem (because it was pased to him through time from other Cobalt Blues), Prof Zoom (Eobard Thawne) also somehow gained Flash-like powers, but chose to battle Wally somewhat equally.

 

PS: About Johnny Quick. You certainly wouldn't classify him as a Flash-level speedster. He was just a human who spoke a mantra that tapped into the Speed Force. If I remember correctly, it was: 3x2(9YZ)4a. The Flash fans might have to correct me, but it sounded something like that. Whenever he or his daughter Jesse (who joined the Teen Titans for a stint) spoke that equation, they tapped into the Speed Force (Wally had to speak this equation in the "Terminal Velocity" arc to save his missus from being zapped by a laser, and it caused him to merge with the Speed Force for the first time). Essentially, he was a human who by speaking a mathematical sum, gained Super Speed. I'm not sure if he still had to speak the mantra as a BL, but yeah, he's hardly Flash Level (he was as fast as Max Mecury though, who was like a Flash Zen Master). He'd probably get laid out by Quicksilver more than anyone else. I know Quicksilver used to only run at the Speed of Sound or something before gaining the Terragin mist? Johnny was able to run a )[email protected])* faster though. Still, to say he'd be a threat against the high level zombies is stupid and ignorant of me.

[Guest boston_celtics]

Look, white light defeats the Black Lanterns, does it not?

 

Thus, Phoenix + Cosmic Awareness = White Light.

 

Win.

[Guest Joecorp]

Look, white light defeats the Black Lanterns, does it not?

 

Thus, Phoenix + Cosmic Awareness = White Light.

 

Win.

Or Nekron just turns her into a Black Lantern.

[C.T.]

Or Nekron just turns her into a Black Lantern.

 

 

Or a bunch of mystics, Dr Strange, Dr. Doom, Dr. Druid, Baron Mordo, Brother Voodoo, Daimon Hellstrom, Wiccan, The Hood, Clea, Jennifer Kale etc. make a mystical shield, preventing the BL's from attacking them for a while, then Invisible Woman covers Phoenix with a force field, which the mystics and cosmics and techs(Reed Richards etc.) reinforce, making it hard to even touch her, and she goes out to fight them, while Namor, Reed, Black Bolt, Dr. Strange, Iron Man, and Beast(in place of Prof. X) gather with Thanos, who has The Infinity Gauntlet, and each one of them hands over one of the infinity gems, and then Thanos does his thing.

[Guest Ivan]

This "Phoenix can rearrange the universe" argument has gone on long enough. How many people has she brought back from the dead and turned into ultrapowered versions of themselves? Fewer than six billion? Then she's no Nekron. Alexander Luthor can rearrange the universe (and has,) and given his history of using cosmic characters as little more than power supplies for his own machinations, I wouldn't be surprised to find the Phoenix force siphoned into some massive machine. Also the Dr. Light we're talking about could potentially take control of the Phoenix, since in that state she emits blinding light. You can make all the Aqualad jokes you want but Tempest, if nothing else, is a conduit through which Alexander Luthor could derive massive mystical power. Harbinger is a time/space/reality traveler whose power is a comprehensive knowledge of everything that's ever happened in whatever universe she shows up in, meaning she could very easily go back in time and shoot Jean Grey's mom in the back.

 

Oh, and if you're going to "cheat" to include every Marvel character ever simply because it's convenient, then the Black Lanterns get to claim every dead character ever, including the countless trillions of lives that were extinguished during the original Crisis of Infinite Earths, and folks like Imperiex, Morpheus, the original Despair, Extant... hell Hank Hall is already a Black Lantern so that one isn't even much of a stretch!

[Guest boston_celtics]

Alex Luthor? The guy that Joker killed? Yeah... His feat of rearranging the universe was conducted solely because of the tower he created, and it was powered not by him, but by the magic of Shazam.

 

We all know that feats alone do not distinguish a characters capabilities. And even if she hasn't brought anyone back from the dead, you are implying that she cannot, or she is not as powerful as all the links claim she is?

 

And if we're going to go use the time travel feat, then every zombie who ate Galactus, Phoenix, Thanos, hell, even Zombie Reed Richards, could go to the beginning of time and make themselves Gods, or something along those line.

[Guest Ivan]

Again, Logicfail. None of those character have been shown to travel time without some kind of maguffin. That's Harbinger's entire freakin power. If you wanted to claim, say, Trevor Fitzroy was a Zombie, then I might buy it. Problem is, you really need to stick to the versions of Marvel Zombies shown in the books. This is why the Black Lanterns have such an unfair advantage, because every Blackest Night issue has page after page of George Perez-esque crowd scenes of resurrected dead people. If you claim everyone in the Marvel 666 Universe who died off-panel, well then the very nature of the Black Lantern storyline means DC fanboys actually get to use that famous George Perez crisis centerfold as reference material. (There were no less than NINE different Justice Leagues from as many varying alternate realities, and all of them had a bevy of Superpeople who died in Crisis.)

 

Also the power of the Rock of Eternity was used to re-create the entire multiverse. This is not a feat Alexander Luthor could accomplish using his own power, but it would not have been possible for another genius level inventor (say Earth 1 Lex Luthor) to operate the device. It required Alex's powers to function. All I'm suggesting here is that Alex Luthor can manipulate the basic structure of matter and anti-matter, which he's been doing since he helped save the damned thing twenty years ago. Because he's Alexander freakin Luthor, he could very easily use his newfound Lantern powers to construct a complex machine to siphon the Phoenix's power (Hal and Kyle did this shit all the time and they weren't super science geniuses with experience tapping into vast extradimensional energies,) and Because He's Alexander Freakin Luthor he would have no trouble controlling the device and using the Phoenix to manipulate reality (surely you're not suggesting she's more powerful than the combined power of The Spectre, The Anti-Monitor, The Rock of Eternity, and all of the imprisoned heroes...)

 

Second, and probably most importantly, The MZ2 Jean Grey was killed by The Hulk. He didn't use any Galacto powers, he just popped her melon like a pimple. How strong is the Hulk? Did I mention Grundy, Bizzaro, Earth-2 Superman, Zor-El, Osiris, Martian Manhunter...

[Guest Joecorp]

Or a bunch of mystics, Dr Strange, Dr. Doom, Dr. Druid, Baron Mordo, Brother Voodoo, Daimon Hellstrom, Wiccan, The Hood, Clea, Jennifer Kale etc. make a mystical shield, preventing the BL's from attacking them for a while, then Invisible Woman covers Phoenix with a force field, which the mystics and cosmics and techs(Reed Richards etc.) reinforce, making it hard to even touch her, and she goes out to fight them, while Namor, Reed, Black Bolt, Dr. Strange, Iron Man, and Beast(in place of Prof. X) gather with Thanos, who has The Infinity Gauntlet, and each one of them hands over one of the infinity gems, and then Thanos does his thing.

First, why does Thanos have the gauntlet? Second, this is a different universe, why would they all have the gems? Especially Beast, why would he have it?

 

The Spectre stomps all of those mystics around and if you throw in Black Hand, Nekron, or even Doctor Fate for good measure, they should have no problem.

[Guest boston_celtics]

Just because they have not displayed that ability, it does not mean they cannot.

 

Silver Surfer could go back in time. Beings that are infinitely more powerful than him cannot? That is logicfail.

[Guest Joecorp]

Just because they have not displayed that ability, it does not mean they cannot.

 

Silver Surfer could go back in time. Beings that are infinitely more powerful than him cannot? That is logicfail.

But because they haven't displayed it, you can't be sure.

 

There are lot's of people who could beat Silver Surfer that can't time travel. That's like saying Thor should be able to shoot lasers out of his eyes because he's stronger then Cyclops.

[Guest boston_celtics]

Silver Surfer can time travel because of the Power Cosmic.

 

He has an infinitesimal part of Galactus power cosmic, which the zombies have, and which other cosmics exceed.

 

Thus, logic dictates that they too can time travel.

[Guest Joecorp]

Silver Surfer can time travel because of the Power Cosmic.

 

He has an infinitesimal part of Galactus power cosmic, which the zombies have, and which other cosmics exceed.

 

Thus, logic dictates that they too can time travel.

The Marvel Zombies are nowhere near as good at using the Power Cosmic as The Silver Surfer. Not to mention that his power is spread out between them, not concentrated into one person like the surfer.

[Guest boston_celtics]

The Marvel Zombies are nowhere near as good at using the Power Cosmic as The Silver Surfer. Not to mention that his power is spread out between them, not concentrated into one person like the surfer.

 

They have the power of Galactus, not Surfer. They are as powerful as him, together (the ones that ate Galactus, that is).

 

And what about the OTHER power cosmic users, like Firelord, or Thanos? They too are more powerful than Surfer (well, maybe not Firelord...)

[Guest Joecorp]

They have the power of Galactus, not Surfer. They are as powerful as him, together (the ones that ate Galactus, that is).

 

And what about the OTHER power cosmic users, like Firelord, or Thanos? They too are more powerful than Surfer (well, maybe not Firelord...)

Whoops, i meant to say Galactus.

 

But like is said, it still doesn't mean they can use it effectively like the surfer can.

 

....and really, how often does the surfer use time travel? As powerful as the surfer is, he isn't smartest guy around. This is the same guy who got arm barred by Black Panther.

 

Once, again, Thanos might be more powerful, but that doesn't mean he can time travel.

[Guest Ivan]

If you want to operate on the plane of what is theoretically possible for all characters involved, instead of using direct evidence, I'm fine with that. Don't call it logic, though. You're using your own bias to stretch the possibilities of various powers far beyond their canon definitions. I, on the other hand, was not. If you'd like me to play the game your way, I will. Here are my opening and closing arguments.

 

1. Nekron can control any dead character in the DCU.

 

2. Michael Demiurgos is a dead DCU character.

 

(Just because Michael has not been displayed as a Black Lantern yet, it does not mean he isn't one.)

 

Just because they have not displayed that ability, it does not mean they cannot.

 

Booyah.

[Landon]

Aunt May has never demonstrated Universe-Eating powers.

 

Aunt May eats the universe and defeats all DC and Marvel characters.

 

Gleek from the Superfriends has never demonstrated Aunt May-Immunity-and-Eating powers.

 

Gleek bursts out of Aunt May's stomach, defeats her, and becomes the sole surviving being in the universe. He then recreates all life by slipping on a cosmic banana peel, thus retconning everything to have never happened, which is exactly what happens at the end of every Marvel and DC crossover event.

 

And he can do all of this, because he's never displayed it before.

 

So DC wins, but only wins because of a character created in one of their cartoon series. Many DC fan cry because they hate Superfriends.

[Guest silversurfer092]

Aunt May has never demonstrated Universe-Eating powers.

 

Aunt May eats the universe and defeats all DC and Marvel characters.

 

Gleek from the Superfriends has never demonstrated Aunt May-Immunity-and-Eating powers.

 

Gleek bursts out of Aunt May's stomach, defeats her, and becomes the sole surviving being in the universe. He then recreates all life by slipping on a cosmic banana peel, thus retconning everything to have never happened, which is exactly what happens at the end of every Marvel and DC crossover event.

 

And he can do all of this, because he's never displayed it before.

 

So DC wins, but only wins because of a character created in one of their cartoon series. Many DC fan cry because they hate Superfriends.

 

 

I lol'd. Also, Silver Surfer is pretty intelligent. He was a scientist back on his home planet. It's just that, back on Zenn-La, there was no war, no hate, no reason to not trust someone. So he trusted most everyone on Earth, for example Black Panther and Loki.

[Marvel Man]

Where to begin...

 

*cracks knuckles*

 

Note: Can't quote enough, so I'll bold things instead.

 

1. I need to talk about this:

 

This is the same guy who got arm barred by Black Panther.

 

And This:

 

Second, and probably most importantly, The MZ2 Jean Grey was killed by The Hulk. He didn't use any Galacto powers, he just popped her melon like a pimple. How strong is the Hulk? Did I mention Grundy, Bizzaro, Earth-2 Superman, Zor-El, Osiris, Martian Manhunter...

 

What's the phrase I'm looking for... Starts with a "P". Ends with "-lot Induced Stupidity". It's on the tip of my tongue...

 

Darn it, I lost it. Oh well.

 

It probably has nothing to do with Silver Surfer being able to destroy planets.

 

I mean, Black Panther got married to Storm y'all!

 

2. If you claim everyone in the Marvel 666 Universe who died off-panel.

 

First of all, the first Marvel Zombies book ends with the entire Earth getting eaten. If just some people had been eaten, then I'd agree with you. However, when the Earth has been wiped out by zombies, that's when I can say that the heroes of Earth got wiped out by zombies.

 

Besides, Marvel Zombies has a whole bunch of tie-ins, crossovers (VS Army of Darkness?), etc. It's pretty obvious everybody got turned into a zombie.

 

3. Take Kal-L for example. He was an alternate Superman. Now, he's (well, was, but he's on the roster so he counts) a Black Lantern. So, imagine Superman with a Power Ring. He can create all the constructs his undead willpower allows (and Kal-El has been known to resist some mega powerful psionics, so I imagine Kal L is the same), and then he also falls back on all his Superpowers as Superman. Also, if you didn't read DC One Million, Superman Prime had a Power Ring, and he was able to crush Solaris, a sentient star, with ease (Solaris was rated the 2nd most powerful weapon in in the 853rd century - can't remember what the first was, but the 3rd was Starman one million's rod; could generate hotter temps than the sun). I would think an undead Superman with a power ring was also this powerful.

 

Hold up. First of all, Superman One Million is the Superman who took a sunbath for a million years. He was insanely powerful, even (by his DC Wiki) omnipotent. Comparing him to anyone in the actual DC Universe is insane. 

 

I'm not saying Kal-L isn't a threat. He's just not Superman One Million.

 

4. Please don't think of me as anything other than impartial. I'd like to think I was given the role of Admin because I can see posts objectively. So, Marvel Man, Boston Celtics, etc. If I offended you, I apologise. I'd just like to think that the Black Lantern's would be a bloody good match against the Marvel Zombies.

 

Bloody battle indeed. And I won't bother saying I'm not bias. I'd never convince anyone.

 

5. Or Nekron just turns her into a Black Lantern.

 

How is he going to control someone who's stronger than him?!

 

6. Oh, and if you're going to "cheat" to include every Marvel character ever simply because it's convenient, then the Black Lanterns get to claim every dead character ever, including the countless trillions of lives that were extinguished during the original Crisis of Infinite Earths, and folks like Imperiex, Morpheus, the original Despair, Extant... hell Hank Hall is already a Black Lantern so that one isn't even much of a stretch!

 

Cheat? Really?

 

The Black Lanterns have a set roster. We're including BLs that have ever been BLs. Marvel Zombies are the same.

 

Except that everyone in the Marvel Zombie Universe was turned into a zombie.

 

7. If you want to operate on the plane of what is theoretically possible for all characters involved, instead of using direct evidence, I'm fine with that. Don't call it logic, though. You're using your own bias to stretch the possibilities of various powers far beyond their canon definitions. I, on the other hand, was not. If you'd like me to play the game your way, I will. Here are my opening and closing arguments.

 

Context? Context?!

 

...

 

Darn. We left it way back...

 

Look, I get what you're saying. However, I'm going to go into a "Ireadtoomanycomics" moment.

 

Boston Celtic is talking about the Power Cosmic. In the Marvel Universe it's basically a deus ex machina/plot device. It can do anything from shoot energy blasts to transmutate matter, etc. 

 

Now, if someone with 1% of Power Cosmic can time travel (Silver Surfer), it's not a stretch to say someone with 99% more (Galactus) can do the same. They're using the same power source.

 

It's like saying someone with twenty dollars can buy the same/more than someone with only one dollar. 

 

8. This "Phoenix can rearrange the universe" argument has gone on long enough. 

 

From a pretty good website:

 

But that’s not all. Jean decides to amputate the alternate universe, diverged from the 616 time line. She not only holds the universe in the palm of her hands, but can Telekinetically control it. 

 

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3779/21wj2.jpg

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6517/22wc2.jpg

 

And now I am done.

 

*rests*

[ND7]

I would only like to say two things.

 

1: MM you and DRX are both awsome debaters.

 

2: The BLs pretty much kicked the shit out of the other lanterns.

[C.T.]

Check out the debating in this thread.

 

Its more on the bottom of the 2nd page and the whole third page.

[Guest Ivan]

Marvel Man is NOT LISTENING. Heh.

 

You can't write off the end of a character as "plot induced stupidity" and then go on to make more arguments in favor of that character. Zombie Phoenix has a certain power level, she displayed it. You can't use every version of the Phoenix ever to support your argument. That's what I called cheating, and I was right.

 

My biggest problem is that you're still not paying attention. Not everyone in the MU is a Zombie. Most of them were eaten. Dead. Not Undead (since by your own earlier admission, the Marvel Zombies aren't undead, merely "evolved".) These characters are not available for this scenario as Marvel Zombies because they were killed.

 

It's pretty obvious THAT VERY FEW CHARACTERS got turned into a zombie. The rest were destroyed. (As a side note, for an Avengers-centric story, a lot of powerful Avengers like Wonder Man and Sersi have yet to show up in a Marvel Zombie book.) Also considering that Decimation never took place in the 666 Universe, there are millions of mutants. These characters are NOT Zombified. They are D-E-A-D Dead. Where is Shadowcat? Eaten by Namor and Quasar. Dead. Not a Zombie. What does this mean? It MEANS that as soon as the Black Lanterns enter the Zombie Universe these folks are all resurrected for the Black Lantern Corps. Yeah, that's right.

 

The other argument, the one that Phoenix is "stronger" than Nekron, is invalid. She died, even the galactozombie version. That right there means she's not on par with a God of Death. You heard me. Thanos just turned gay for this guy. By the way Phoenix was controlled by Mastermind, so even if the Phoenix were stronger than Nekron (she's not,) he could still very easily do it.

 

The time travel argument is moot, I used to to point out that folks like Harbinger and Pariah move about in the time stream. Time Travel is probably listed on someone's wikipedia page, but anyone familiar with the Surfer knows it is not something he uses, especially in the past twenty years. Hell when Grandmaster pulled him from the time stream, he didn't express the ability to return on his own.

 

In any case the Zombies don't have the ability to travel time or else they wouldn't need to search outside their own universe for food, they could just continually travel one day earlier into the past and feed again and again (know as the Gog reflex... heh.)

 

The "set" Black Lantern Roster literally grows in leaps and bounds every Wednesday. When this thread started, the fight was even. Now, not so much.

 

In any case, the Marvel fanboys argument rests solely and squarely on The Phoenix, which is their mistake. Like I pointed out before, the combination of Alexander Luthor and a ring that can instantly create whatever inventions he can imagine is possibly enough to end the threat of The Phoenix by itself. Your real argument should come in the form of a Crystal/Moondragon/Quasar/Hank Pym teamup.

 

Final caveat: Things that took place in the White Hot Room are not valid arguments for Phoenix's power level. Period.