Skirmisher Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Ha got it: The X-bow would not be able to be parried by the Samurai On another forum, I've been involved in an ongoing discussion about exactly this topic. Reverse curve bows, of the kind used by Mongols and medieval Chinese, Japanese, and Korean warriors had a pull of about 35-40 lbs, far below the force generated by a modern compound bow. Still, with practice and use, they produced accuracy at ranges to about 100 yards. Velocity would be about the range of a hard fastball, so deflecting it would not be impossible, or require superhuman skill or strength (keeping in mind that deflection would require the same amount of contact as hitting a foul ball - getting the 'home run' would not be necessary). Two members of that other forum set up a demo, and began practicing. At 25 yards distance, they found enough drop in the flight path of an arrow shot directly towards a defender to allow the defender to judge the speed and distance of the arrow. This allowed the defender, with minimal practice, to deflect arrows consistently. The team practiced with target arrows -painful but not fatal for missed shots - and were able to repeatedly deflect the arrows, with only one unfortunate (and humorous for those watching)exception. The participants in the demo were an experienced bow hunter and a practitioner of a Korean sword art. It's not a technique I'd recommend as a first line of defense against archers, but it is something that could be incorporated into battlefield tactics and techniques, if the emergency situation presented itself. Basically the Bolded parts are the Important parts. It requires that the Samurai is able to see and judge how far and fast the projectile is for him to be able to parry it. Bows have drop, sometimes significant drop, but not as much as a Crossbow. The Bolts would be much harder to track as they wouldn't allow the Samurai the ability to judge distance and speed. As well, although it's not quite drop, an Airsoft bullet would have a Curve to it's trajectory that would allow the Samurai the chance to gauge both speed and distance, and allow him the chance to deflect it. Once again the drop/curve of an X-bow is not that significant. Knights Crossbow will rake up alot of kills in this fight. I'd guess in the 200's to 300's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Their was a Samuari who did nothing but train with Kanabos and that is all he used. - Fun fact. The Halberg is not that great. Now your underestingmating the Samuari. The Naginata and Halberg would be dead even.I don't think so. The Naginata was little more than a Wakizashi on a pole, which greatly improved the reach and effectiveness of the smaller sword, but that was it. Even though there are thrusting techniques, they are more designed to slice along a target rather than penetrate any sort of armour, this is why the Naginata has a greater curve at it's tip. The Halberd on the other hand was the Swiss Army Knife of Polearms. You could spear, cut, cleave, pull, push, trip, entangle, etc. with it. It was a really good multi-weapon, and with the extra weight of the Axe head it would actually do significant damage to the Samurai, whereas the Naginata being a slashing weapon would be impotent against the Knights armour. Give these a look Notice that in the few thrust attacks, they either glance off the body in an effort to maximize Slashing or are brought in and then off to the side/up/down to slash their target. Also based on the previous videos and the vid that JP posted ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmNTKy8LJiY ) the Halberd actually has a much more advanced Martial Arts than the Naginata. Which given it's versatility and it's lethality in addition to it's superior tactics means that the Knight would floor the Samurai if it were Halberd vs Naginata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Also... apparently little has changed in Western Martial arts since the Renaissance ages. Jujitsu never really improved on what Knights and other fighters were already learning, and even today those same techniques are being used by the USMC with little difference. Sure Marines don't use swords like the knights did, but that's only one of the small differences. Also answering JP's question about Knights in full platemail being encumbered or slow... No, no they are not... Lastly the Long Sword is a Far better armour piercer than previous videos would have you think. Rather than Straight on thrusting, Knights used special techniques to pierce armoured foes with their swords. I would think that the Mordschlag would be particularly effective against the Samurai. And I would like to see a Katana do That! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indolent Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Also... apparently little has changed in Western Martial arts since the Renaissance ages. Jujitsu never really improved on what Knights and other fighters were already learning, and even today those same techniques are being used by the USMC with little difference. Sure Marines don't use swords like the knights did, but that's only one of the small differences. Also answering JP's question about Knights in full platemail being encumbered or slow... No, no they are not... Lastly the Long Sword is a Far better armour piercer than previous videos would have you think. Rather than Straight on thrusting, Knights used special techniques to pierce armoured foes with their swords. I would think that the Mordschlag would be particularly effective against the Samurai. And I would like to see a Katana do That!Mh, it was never expanded on as they used their Katanas much more than the arts so that would be expected... That guy in the platemail in the link you provided on how to kill em runs a bit slower despite being a west point cadet... Samurais are faster still and even so more if this is the ancient Knight where you claim that modern age humans are much better physically than these humans. And the Samurai can hit in these spots as well... and the Kanabo can do the same hitting the guy on the hit as the other end of the sword can do. a naginta is a wakashizi that's like a katana, only on a stick, correct? They can do the same stabbing... and much more penetrative at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treacherous Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 ND7, Apache vs. Pirate would be a good match up. Apache's used Bow and Arrows, Spears, Shields made from Buffalo hides and routinely carried rifles and guns stolen during raids. They would be very able to handle the Pirates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indolent Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 ND7, Apache vs. Pirate would be a good match up. Apache's used Bow and Arrows, Spears, Shields made from Buffalo hides and routinely carried rifles and guns stolen during raids. They would be very able to handle the Pirates.This Pirate has a form of a grenade... and a flintlock pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirmisher Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Mh, it was never expanded on as they used their Katanas much more than the arts so that would be expected... That guy in the platemail in the link you provided on how to kill em runs a bit slower despite being a west point cadet... Samurais are faster still and even so more if this is the ancient Knight where you claim that modern age humans are much better physically than these humans. And the Samurai can hit in these spots as well... and the Kanabo can do the same hitting the guy on the hit as the other end of the sword can do. a naginta is a wakashizi that's like a katana, only on a stick, correct? They can do the same stabbing... and much more penetrative at that.1) ??? 2) That guy wasn't in Platemail, he was in heavy chainmail. Chainmail is inefficieant as an armour, when deployed by itself as it then has to be thick enough to counter thrusts and such. Which is why Platemail was invented. Thinner plates would actually reduce the weight of the armour. "While it looks heavy, a full plate armour set could be as light as only 20 kg (45 pounds) if well made of tempered steel. This is less than the weight of modern combat gear of an infantry soldier (usually 25 to 35 kg), and the weight is more evenly distributed. The weight was so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. Modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armour, though it is difficult. It is possible for a fit and trained man in armour to run after and catch an unarmoured archer, as witnessed in re-enactment combat." Were as just a Chainmail shirt alone is roughly 10kg, a whole suit might put it well above 20kg to cover legs feet and head. 3a) The thing is thought that the Knight can use his sword more as a tool to get better penetration out of his sword, where a Samurai only has a straight thrust with his sword, something that could easily be deflected or rolled with, as well as only being able to do that kind of move at the swords maximum range. The Knight can effectively preform his armour piercing moves at a much shorter range. 3b) I never talked about the Kanabo because that would really be the Only weapon in the Samurais arsenal that could even stand a chance at killing the Knight effectively. But the weapon is unwieldy and a knight may able to deflect it's blows long enough for the Samurai to try something else. 4) Yes, but most Naginata were forged purposely to have a much greater curve at the end of their blade in order to make Slashing more easier. They were a slashing and chopping weapon, not a thrusting weapon, and the Knights armour is 100% resistant to slashing and (Though not as much) perfect against chopping weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indolent Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Ah, screw it, lets just say stalemate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treacherous Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 This Pirate has a form of a grenade... and a flintlock pistol. Flintlock Grenade is a very weak grenade. Apache carried rifles and a six shooter most times. Flintlock is also a weak pistol compared to the six shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indolent Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Flintlock Grenade is a very weak grenade. Apache carried rifles and a six shooter most times. Flintlock is also a weak pistol compared to the six shooter.It managed to knock over a knight in heavy armor... the armor saved him. But yeah. The Apache from Deadliest Warrior, did he use six shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheRandomBandit Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 The Priates had guns yes, but they were not like guns now a days. Sometimes they would backfire or not shoot at all. Apache vs Priate would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheRandomBandit Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 I agree, lets call this match a stalemate. It could go on and on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranglehold-prime Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 The Priates had guns yes, but they were not like guns now a days. Sometimes they would backfire or not shoot at all. Apache vs Priate would be great. Yeah with the Apache dieing in 15 seconds. Ninje vs Apache would be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ND7 Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Final Judgement: With what has been provided and with only one person defending the Samurai asgaint two others who provided very good facts(You did too Eth.) but I have made my mind up and the Knight wins this bout. Sorry to alll those who wanted the Sam to win.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheRandomBandit Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Yeah with the Apache dieing in 15 seconds. Ninje vs Apache would be good. The Apaches used stealth, were the greatest and still are the best knife fighters in the world, had long range weapons as well. How do you figure the Apache dying in 15 seconds? When as mentioned before some of those Priate guns would back fire and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheRandomBandit Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Final Judgement: With what has been provided and with only one person defending the Samurai asgaint two others who provided very good facts(You did too Eth.) but I have made my mind up and the Knight wins this bout. Sorry to alll those who wanted the Sam to win.. Its cool. Very understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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