Pirate vs Apache

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

I'm going to give detailed anaysis based on weapons and setting here.

 

Weapon match ups:

 

Long Range

 

Flintlock pistol

Blunderbuss

Musket

 

vs.

 

Six shooter.

 

Mid Range:

 

Grenado

 

vs.

 

Tomahawk

 

Short Range:

 

Cutlass

 

vs.

 

Knife

Bone club

Tomahawk

 

Long Range comparission:

 

The Pirate is packing a lot of heat, a musket, Blunderbuss and up to six flintlocks vs one six shooter. We saw the six shooter in Jesse James vs Al Capone, and while a misfire is possible the chance is less than with the Pirates weapons and it's also more accurate a shot. Of course the Blunderbuss has the spread but the chance of misfire makes me give the Apache the edge for the faster, more reliable weapon.

 

Long Range Edge: Apache

 

Mid Range comparrission:

 

The Grenado has the spread but lighting the fuse gives away position. However if the Apache is in the blast radius he's more than likely toast. That said the Apache carries several tomahawks which are less likely to give a way position and be used to stealth while the pirate isn't will allow him to stay undetected while finding his opponent. This one goes down to who gets their shot off first.

 

Mid Range Advantage: Tie

 

Short range:

 

The cutlass is a long sword that gives the pirate the reach advantage here. The Apache bone club is a non factor here while the knife is good for stealth attacks and the Tomahawk is more frontal. That said even in this setting following Deadliest Warrior formula if it gets to close range your opponent has survived long and Mid ranged assaults and knows where you are. That said a long sword like the cutlass will prove very effective.

 

Short Range Advantage: Pirate

 

Final assessment: This fight will most likely me long or mid range meaning the Apache would get more kills in a 1000 battle sim on Deadliest Warrior. Winner: Apache

 

Intresting analysis Nesh, however two discrepancies:

 

*ND didnt give the pirate a grenado in this situation.

 

*A cutlass is a short one-handed sword used for fighting in confined/cramped spaces(ex. pirate ship deck). Now its probably bigger than the tomahawk, but probably not keep at bay length(though being slashing it may still work).

[Nesh]

 

Intresting analysis Nesh, however two discrepancies:

 

*ND didnt give the pirate a grenado in this situation.

 

*A cutlass is a short one-handed sword used for fighting in confined/cramped spaces(ex. pirate ship deck). Now its probably bigger than the tomahawk, but probably not keep at bay length(though being slashing it may still work).

My bad, it doesn't change the over all outcome though.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

My bad, it doesn't change the over all outcome though.

 

fair enough

[ND7]

Sigh... since no one seems to be debating agsiant Kev I guess I might as well try.

 

Kev you think the lights flickering on and off will decide who lives or dies?

[Skirmisher]

Sigh... since no one seems to be debating agsiant Kev I guess I might as well try.

 

Kev you think the lights flickering on and off will decide who lives or dies?

Well, I can help out abit too... the Musket will have plenty enough accuracy for this situation. I can't place the link just yet, but I did see a video analysis of the musket and it had a fairly good range to it, far better than you'd expect actually. As well, IIRC the Musket was the most reliable black powder, muzzle loader of it's time. Another great thing about the Musket is that once used it is a very effective Club, as they had to build them sturdy, and heavy to make them as reliable as they were.

 

As well the most common type of Misfire with the old black powder muzzle loaders was a fizzle with nothing happening, or a (Not sure what you call it) hidden fuse, where it looks like it fizzles but it's still actually burning and when you don't expect it Bam! it fires... Only when there is a Ball already in the barrel would it explode and since you have to reload the things down the barrel then you'd know if there were a ball already down there... But you can also explode your gun by Double Balling, putting Two bullets with an increased charge, this would allow the gun to fire the two balls at the same time, but if the First ball got stuck then you'd probably explode your gun...

 

*Trying to find more material, and back up current claims.*

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Well, I can help out abit too... the Musket will have plenty enough accuracy for this situation. I can't place the link just yet, but I did see a video analysis of the musket and it had a fairly good range to it, far better than you'd expect actually. As well, IIRC the Musket was the most reliable black powder, muzzle loader of it's time. Another great thing about the Musket is that once used it is a very effective Club, as they had to build them sturdy, and heavy to make them as reliable as they were.

 

As well the most common type of Misfire with the old black powder muzzle loaders was a fizzle with nothing happening, or a (Not sure what you call it) hidden fuse, where it looks like it fizzles but it's still actually burning and when you don't expect it Bam! it fires... Only when there is a Ball already in the barrel would it explode and since you have to reload the things down the barrel then you'd know if there were a ball already down there... But you can also explode your gun by Double Balling, putting Two bullets with an increased charge, this would allow the gun to fire the two balls at the same time, but if the First ball got stuck then you'd probably explode your gun...

 

*Trying to find more material, and back up current claims.*

 

Crap Im facing skirm . Well, Ill wait for info on the musket's accuracy, but if nothing else I guess the club argument could be worse . Though while ur there, mind checking on my claim on the apaches six shooter? I cant find a link to the episode(it was Wild West tech: shootout tech, I believe). If u got any other sources for cap & ball/black powder revolvers Im all ears...

 

We can go from there unless u want to switch the debating to melee range.

[Stranglehold-prime]

"Sigh" Pirate in a stomp.

 

Why didnt you take my idea and make Apache vs Ninje.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

"Sigh" Pirate in a stomp.

 

Why didnt you take my idea and make Apache vs Ninje.

 

Assuming you have read all the previous posts(which, no offense but, I dont think u did), why do u think the pirates win so easily despite arguments to the contrary?

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Sigh... since no one seems to be debating agsiant Kev I guess I might as well try.

 

Kev you think the lights flickering on and off will decide who lives or dies?

 

I think the worst it could do is:

 

A: Scare the crap out of/distract the pirate via flashes.

 

B:Give one of the combatants a case of itchy trigger finger and waste a round on something they think they saw.

[Stranglehold-prime]

Assuming you have read all the previous posts(which, no offense but, I dont think u did), why do u think the pirates win so easily despite arguments to the contrary?

Because Pirates are crazy. They show no mercy to how ever they are facing. They have more deadly weapons. The Apache is well skilled but the Pirate has more firepower.

 

The Grenado the early Grenade is overkill.

[Stranglehold-prime]

Plus the Apache is use to fighting on the plains,forest,etc.

 

He would not blind in with his surroundings while fighting in a subway.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Where to begin...:

 

*The pirate isnt armed w/ grenado's here.

 

*The pirates in trouble if(most likely) he gets into melee combat

 

*You call scalping people alive, mercy? Apaches were hardcore.

 

*The pirates guns are unreliable at best, and the apache has a gun himself(a cap n ball revolver), here.

 

*Its a dark subway so all the apache has to do to hide is not make noise and stay in the shadows(something he can do)

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

...do I win ?

[ND7]

Well I think if SP and Skirm respond then it will be decided the end of this match.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Well I think if SP and Skirm respond then it will be decided the end of this match.

 

...*hmph* shame. This couldve been intresting.

[Stranglehold-prime]

Where to begin...:

 

*The pirate isnt armed w/ grenado's here.

 

*The pirates in trouble if(most likely) he gets into melee combat

 

*You call scalping people alive, mercy? Apaches were hardcore.

 

*The pirates guns are unreliable at best, and the apache has a gun himself(a cap n ball revolver), here.

 

*Its a dark subway so all the apache has to do to hide is not make noise and stay in the shadows(something he can do)

 

 

You have gave me good facts. But the Apache is still use to nature.

[ND7]

Yep. But hopefully the next match will spark some intrest.

[Stranglehold-prime]

The Apache lost to the same weapons the Pirates had. Give a Pirate those weapons and you have trouble.

 

Close range a pirate can still win.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

You have gave me good facts. But the Apache is still use to nature.

 

Ok...a pirate is used to a ship. Lets talk weapon specs...

[Indolent]

PIRATES FTW !

[Skirmisher]

Not sure if this helps that much, I could barely hear them on my computer, even set at Max Volume... maybe it's just my crappy speakers though...

 

 

Anyway from what I could hear, they fired the Muskets at targets about 100 yards, and only had a spread of around a meter. Reloading shouldn't be a thing here, as even at fasted the Pirate wouldn't be able to get in a second shot from the same gun in this fight.

 

This would be plenty accurate for a subway where I doubt you'd find distances to be greater than 30 yards, meaning that the spread may well be only a couple inches off target. Seeing as how anyone with an "Inaccurate" weapon would probably try to aim for the center of the target to maximize their chances to hit, then it would be easy to say that the Muskets accuracy is not in question for this battle, now the Pirates would be on the other hand. But then again these guys were firing these things accurately off the moving decks of ships, so it shouldn't be that bad.

 

Still, the most probable hits would be to Chest and Abdomen, which would either incapacitate or give a mortal wound, if not outright kill.

 

As for the chances of Misfire... you saw those guys fire 20+ rounds, I only saw one misfire and it was a fizzle that was immediately corrected within a few seconds. Also, I believe that these were actually rifled muskets they were testing, but with the method of Tap Loading which they were doing, it was supposed to reduce the Rifles accuracy and range to that of a Musket. So no harm no foul here.

 

The same could be said for the Pistols, except they would probably misfire far less often as they generally had bigger calibers than Muskets. The bigger the barrel the less likely there would be for a misfire from that side at least.

 

But with all Flint/Match locks, the real issue behind a Misfire could easily be in the striker mechanism. If you don't have enough powder or your powder falls out of that then the Flint/Match wouldn't have anything to light, and your gun wouldn't fire. But this is easily solved with more gun powder...

 

 

Here's another source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket#Europe

 

"The matchlock had several disadvantages – it was inaccurate at over 50m..."

 

Once again, withing 50m it was "Accurate" and I doubt that there would be a stretch of Subway greater than 50m that wasn't on the tracks.

 

 

 

Also as a suggestion, since we're getting into the one hit one kill weapons, why not give both sides a team of henchmen? 4 Pirates vs 4 Apache warriors, each armed with a discussed weapon(s). That would make it interesting.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Not sure if this helps that much, I could barely hear them on my computer, even set at Max Volume... maybe it's just my crappy speakers though...

 

 

Anyway from what I could hear, they fired the Muskets at targets about 100 yards, and only had a spread of around a meter. Reloading shouldn't be a thing here, as even at fasted the Pirate wouldn't be able to get in a second shot from the same gun in this fight.

 

This would be plenty accurate for a subway where I doubt you'd find distances to be greater than 30 yards, meaning that the spread may well be only a couple inches off target. Seeing as how anyone with an "Inaccurate" weapon would probably try to aim for the center of the target to maximize their chances to hit, then it would be easy to say that the Muskets accuracy is not in question for this battle, now the Pirates would be on the other hand. But then again these guys were firing these things accurately off the moving decks of ships, so it shouldn't be that bad.

 

Still, the most probable hits would be to Chest and Abdomen, which would either incapacitate or give a mortal wound, if not outright kill.

 

As for the chances of Misfire... you saw those guys fire 20+ rounds, I only saw one misfire and it was a fizzle that was immediately corrected within a few seconds. Also, I believe that these were actually rifled muskets they were testing, but with the method of Tap Loading which they were doing, it was supposed to reduce the Rifles accuracy and range to that of a Musket. So no harm no foul here.

 

The same could be said for the Pistols, except they would probably misfire far less often as they generally had bigger calibers than Muskets. The bigger the barrel the less likely there would be for a misfire from that side at least.

 

But with all Flint/Match locks, the real issue behind a Misfire could easily be in the striker mechanism. If you don't have enough powder or your powder falls out of that then the Flint/Match wouldn't have anything to light, and your gun wouldn't fire. But this is easily solved with more gun powder...

 

 

Here's another source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket#Europe

 

"The matchlock had several disadvantages – it was inaccurate at over 50m..."

 

Once again, withing 50m it was "Accurate" and I doubt that there would be a stretch of Subway greater than 50m that wasn't on the tracks.

 

 

 

Also as a suggestion, since we're getting into the one hit one kill weapons, why not give both sides a team of henchmen? 4 Pirates vs 4 Apache warriors, each armed with a discussed weapon(s). That would make it interesting.

 

Intresting:

 

Ill give u misfire, though accuracy, Im still not sure about. Also while Subway stations dont have alot of room, there is alot of subway to hide(ND said the whole place, trains included. Taking into account places to hide and duck out the apache aint gonna be the easiest target

 

*About adding more powder, in the middle of a firefight may not be smart. Also the guy is running around, powder can drop out of the pan if improperly secured. Squad battle is intresting

 

PS:Got any info on the revolvers?

[ND7]

Sorry for all those who had tried their hardest to defend the Pirate but to me the Apache seemed the most likely to win this fight.

[Guest KevinDWolf93]

Sorry for all those who had tried their hardest to defend the Pirate but to me the Apache seemed the most likely to win this fight.

 

Some good debating...only wish there was more of it.

 

So whats the next fight?

[ND7]

You will see... I'm in the process of posting it now..