Master Chief vs Commander Shepard vs Marcus Fenix

[Skirmisher]

Yes, and I actually did in this thread. It's up to you to counter my arguments.

No, you inserted your own numbers based on your opinion of what they should be... Watch I can do the Same thing for Halo.

 

See what Molecular Strengthening does to a metal actually Quadruples it's weight.

 

That means that they fire 44g bullets at 905m/s, with a Kinetic Energy of 18,018.55 joules per bullet. As well that would mean that the Sniper Rifle has a Kinetic Energy of 261,544.5 joules.

 

Not only that but Mass effect weapons seem to have Extremely low range. With the Pistol only being accurate out to a a couple dozen meters, the Assault rifle only out to point blank and the sniper rifle with the Longest range only shooting as far as a 100m...

 

 

Guess what? This is all bullshit, just like what you were doing.

 

 

Also, use Joules, not Newtons. Newtons by itself is useless in this analysis, Joules is far more efficient. Also...

 

 

The joule (pronounced /ˈdÊ’uËl/ or /ˈdÊ’aÊŠl/); symbol J), named after James Prescott Joule, is the derived unit of energy in the International System of Units. It is the energy expended in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre (1 newton·metre or N·m).

 

 

So your Math is wrong.

[Skirmisher]

A 10 milligram grain has to be fired at 353,600 m/s to match the recoil of an M4, with a KE of 612.5 kilojoules.

Wait... you're basically saying that an M4 which fires 5.56x45mm NATO round with ~1700 joules of energy ACTUALLY fires them off at 612.5 kilojoules of energy?

 

You Math is Wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your Blatant Mistakes every f***ing second.

[Guest ricrery]

No, you inserted your own numbers based on your opinion of what they should be... Watch I can do the Same thing for Halo.

 

See what Molecular Strengthening does to a metal actually Quadruples it's weight.

 

That means that they fire 44g bullets at 905m/s, with a Kinetic Energy of 18,018.55 joules per bullet. As well that would mean that the Sniper Rifle has a Kinetic Energy of 261,544.5 joules.

 

Hooray, it's still less than a common ME weapon!

 

Not only that but Mass effect weapons seem to have Extremely low range. With the Pistol only being accurate out to a a couple dozen meters, the Assault rifle only out to point blank and the sniper rifle with the Longest range only shooting as far as a 100m...

 

YES, and the fluff say that is because of RECOIL.

 

Guess what? This is all bullshit, just like what you were doing.

 

Uh huh.

 

Also, use Joules, not Newtons. Newtons by itself is useless in this analysis, Joules is far more efficient. Also...

 

AHA, no. 1,600 Joules isn't 1,600 Newtons. 1,600 Newtons is sufficient to throw an 80 kilogram person back at 20 meters per second, or a Spartan with a mass of 500 kilos back at 3 meters per second. You then must realize that Newtons are what gives guns their recoil and force, but surprisingly they don't cause their holder to fly back with more kinetic energy than a bullet from the gun itself.

 

The joule (pronounced /ˈdÊ’uËl/ or /ˈdÊ’aÊŠl/); symbol J), named after James Prescott Joule, is the derived unit of energy in the International System of Units. It is the energy expended in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre (1 newton·metre or N·m).

 

Energy is not force.

[Guest ricrery]

Wait... you're basically saying that an M4 which fires 5.56x45mm NATO round with ~1700 joules of energy ACTUALLY fires them off at 612.5 kilojoules of energy?

 

Nope, but it hits you with as much momentum.

 

You Math is Wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your Blatant Mistakes every f***ing second.

 

YOUR science is wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your blatant mistakes every *vulgarity*ing second.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

The math says yes.

 

A MA5 fires a 7.62x51 mm NATO round at 905 m/s. The KE here is 4 kilojoules. The sniper fires a 60 gram slug at 1,400 m/s. The KE here is 60 kilojoules.

 

A 10 milligram grain has to be fired at 353,600 m/s to match the recoil of an M4, with a KE of 612.5 kilojoules. A grain has to travel at 54,569 m/s to match the recoil, with a KE of 96.5 kilojoules. A gram needs to travel at 3,530 m/s, with a KE of 12.5 kilojoules. So you see, each possible mass gives us numbers far above the standard MA5. Oh, and the last one is not "possible" and the one before it is very unlikely.

 

So you see, the ME side does have weapons stronger by orders of magnitudes by their equivalents and more.

 

The novels have heads blown up by shots, and I believe, people mangled.

 

Who says the recoil is equivalent to that of an M4? Are you going by visuals? If so, that is EXTREMELY subjective. And people can be mangled or have their heads exploded by modern rounds, as well. The fact is that in-game cut-scenes, which are on the same level if not higher canon than the novels don't have such damage levels.

 

Here are some pictures (warning, they're rather large):

 

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7269/gun1f.jpg

 

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/1889/gun2.jpg

 

 

That's straight from one of the graphic novels. Impressive penetration, but nothing there or in the other fluff suggests orders of magnitude greater power.

[Guest ricrery]

Who says the recoil is equivalent to that of an M4? Are you going by visuals? If so, that is EXTREMELY subjective.

 

No, it's an unofficial number given to their weapons due to them having enough recoil to prevent assault rifles from being used like sniper rifles. We could go with one Newton of force, and still get 50 kilojoules.

 

The fact is that in-game cut-scenes, which are on the same level if not higher canon than the novels don't have such damage levels.

 

Bullshit. Bioware themselves stated that cutscenes are actually one of the lowest canon depictions of Mass Effect. Oh hell, they stated that the codex automatically overrides anything the cutscenes show.

 

Here are some pictures (warning, they're rather large):

 

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7269/gun1f.jpg

 

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/1889/gun2.jpg

 

 

That's straight from one of the graphic novels. Impressive penetration, but nothing there or in the other fluff suggests orders of magnitude greater power.

 

Right, and these are ARMORED INDIVIDUALS.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

No, it's an unofficial number given to their weapons due to them having enough recoil to prevent assault rifles from being used like sniper rifles. We could go with one Newton of force, and still get 50 kilojoules.

Which surpasses modern 14.5mm rounds and approaches the power of a 20mm Vulcan round. And you're saying EACH round out of an assault rifle does that much damage? If that was the case, just about anything would be utterly reduced to pulped flesh upon receiving even a short burst from an assault rifle, yet this is not the case.

 

 

Bullshit. Bioware themselves stated that cutscenes are actually one of the lowest canon depictions of Mass Effect. Oh hell, they stated that the codex automatically overrides anything the cutscenes show.

Source? I knew they had said that at one point, but IIRC it was directed at the space battle at the Citadel with Sovereign simply because that entire sequence was filled with fail. I've NEVER about them saying the rest were to be discounted though.

 

 

 

Right, and these are ARMORED INDIVIDUALS.

I'm well aware of that. I'm referring to the tissue damage. Modern bullets can fly through armor too and still cause blood spatter like what we see there, maybe a bit less. I'm still not seeing any solid PROOF that they are orders of magnitude greater in power. Only extrapolation and conjecture.

[Guest ricrery]

Which surpasses modern 14.5mm rounds and approaches the power of a 20mm Vulcan round. And you're saying EACH round out of an assault rifle does that much damage? If that was the case, just about anything would be utterly reduced to pulped flesh upon receiving even a short burst from an assault rifle, yet this is not the case.

 

Possibly if they cause recoil similar to a modern day equivalent gun. It's possible that they don't cause this much recoil from one bullet but instead a burst, but I don't know.

 

Source? I knew they had said that at one point, but IIRC it was directed at the space battle at the Citadel with Sovereign simply because that entire sequence was filled with fail. I've NEVER about them saying the rest were to be discounted though.

 

That's exactly where I'm coming from. However, you will need proof that their canon policy goes cutscene > codex/novel as you made the claim.

 

I'm well aware of that. I'm referring to the tissue damage. Modern bullets can fly through armor too and still cause blood spatter like what we see there, maybe a bit less. I'm still not seeing any solid PROOF that they are orders of magnitude greater in power. Only extrapolation and conjecture.

 

Yeah, and they had to puncture the armor, and... they shatter upon hitting said armor... Plus, what makes you think that they can fit thousands of bullets that mass grams or even grains?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Possibly if they cause recoil similar to a modern day equivalent gun. It's possible that they don't cause this much recoil from one bullet but instead a burst, but I don't know.

It just doesn't make sense, tbh. Using your original calc of 96.5 kilojoules, a three round burst surpasses the energy of a 30mm armor-piercing round from the Avenger cannon on an A-10. A round, I might add, which is known for shredding main battle tanks.

 

That's exactly where I'm coming from. However, you will need proof that their canon policy goes cutscene > codex/novel as you made the claim.

I thought the general idea was that the original source material was considered highest canon unless the creators directly say otherwise. It's a never-ending argument, because I could just ask for proof that the novels are higher canon.

 

Yeah, and they had to puncture the armor, and... they shatter upon hitting said armor... Plus, what makes you think that they can fit thousands of bullets that mass grams or even grains?

Those rounds don't seem to shatter, and the reason that they're leaving visible beams is beyond me. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the last part.

 

 

I personally recommend that we end this now. This is a massive thread derail. We both agree on the same fundamental principle of Shepard having a distinct advantage here. Nitpicking over how powerful his weapons are is just silly, and I apologize for starting this.

[Guest ricrery]

It just doesn't make sense, tbh. Using your original calc of 96.5 kilojoules, a three round burst surpasses the energy of a 30mm armor-piercing round from the Avenger cannon on an A-10. A round, I might add, which is known for shredding main battle tanks.

 

And are those designed with an metal denser, or at the very least, capable of puncturing a tanks armor? A 96.5 kilojoule bullet isn't going to shred a battle tank obviously. Also, an Abrams has a double digit mJ cannon for its main gun.

 

Those rounds don't seem to shatter, and the reason that they're leaving visible beams is beyond me. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the last part.

 

Their function is to shatter upon impact, as stated in the codex. If they weren't doing that, they would fly right through a target, causing it to receive a small amount of the KE of the bullet.

 

I personally recommend that we end this now. This is a massive thread derail. We both agree on the same fundamental principle of Shepard having a distinct advantage here. Nitpicking over how powerful his weapons are is just silly, and I apologize for starting this.

 

So is it agreed that Shephard wins?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

And are those designed with an metal denser, or at the very least, capable of puncturing a tanks armor? A 96.5 kilojoule bullet isn't going to shred a battle tank obviously. Also, an Abrams has a double digit mJ cannon for its main gun.

A 96.5 KJ bullet won't shred a tank, but a burst of them might. Especially the top armor.

 

 

 

Their function is to shatter upon impact, as stated in the codex. If they weren't doing that, they would fly right through a target, causing it to receive a small amount of the KE of the bullet.

Like I said earlier, this, in a way, defies the physics of hypervelocity impacts. IIRC, both objects tend to "explode". This would make sense, because otherwise the round would simply penetrate, as it lacks the diameter of modern bullets to make a big hole, regardless of how much KE it carries.

 

 

 

So is it agreed that Shephard wins?

When was it not? I was supporting Shepard from the beginning, and I've done it before in the thread I linked in my first post.

[Guest ricrery]

A 96.5 KJ bullet won't shred a tank, but a burst of them might. Especially the top armor.

 

And what if they aren't a dense enough material?

 

Like I said earlier, this, in a way, defies the physics of hypervelocity impacts. IIRC, both objects tend to "explode". This would make sense, because otherwise the round would simply penetrate, as it lacks the diameter of modern bullets to make a big hole, regardless of how much KE it carries.

 

Would "shatter" count as explode?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

And what if they aren't a dense enough material?

Tougher to say. I'm not an end-all expert on physics, but enough would have sufficient KE to "erode" the armor. Either way, you have a round with a tiny surface area and EXTREMELY high velocity. Those are recipes for massive penetration (except for the whole explosion factor). Adding in good sectional density just makes more fun. In any case, tungsten rounds are mentioned regularly. No idea what most Mass Effect rounds are made of.

 

Would "shatter" count as explode?

It's possible that the writers intended the same thing, but that's not how I interpreted it from the context. The way they make it sound, it's as if the rounds are purposefully designed so as to squash like a modern-day hollow-point bullet. I really don't think they'd have a choice for anything other than an explosion.

[Skirmisher]

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.

 

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing. And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.

 

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move, and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...

[Guest Jason Redfield]

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.

 

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing. And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.

 

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move, and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...

 

Err... I was showing those pictures to argue ricery's points. You're not saying anything new here. And SAPI/ESAPI plates laugh at even 7.62x51mm NATO armor-piercing rounds. In fact, they can take multiple hits from them.

[Guest ricrery]

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.

 

As I've already stated, I use the Newtons from an M4 and use it for the ME weapons, give it a mass, then I find the velocity.

 

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing.

 

And just what proof do you have?

 

Interesting, the recoil of this rifle is pretty high, and several ME guns have high recoil too, so using this gun's recoil and giving the sniper pellet a mass of 100 milligrams, I get 374,978 Joules.

 

And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.

 

Heavier bullets? False. They use FMJ bullets, which are LESS THAN 10 GRAMS. You aren't looking at even 4 kilojoules, yet you think THIS is enough to violently blow up one's head.

 

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move,

 

But you can quantify that armor? You can't, so how would you know that it hitting in the gut suggests it isn't a great feat when you don't know the actual durability of that part?

 

and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...

 

Oh wow, kevlar! Apparently that is comparable to ME armor- No it isn't.

[Skirmisher]

Err... I was showing those pictures to argue ricery's points. You're not saying anything new here. And SAPI plates laugh at even 7.62x51mm NATO M993 tungsten-carbide armor-piercing rounds. In fact, they can take multiple hits from them.

Um... No... no it doesn't...

 

The Small Arms Protective Insert is a Ceramic Plate that is used to defeat Modern Armour Piercing Bullets... except that It doesn't work that good. One Plate can only take on Average Three Strikes from Standard 7.62x51mm NATO Ball Cartridges, and that's only if it strikes Different parts of the Plate. What happens with Ceramic Plates is that once the Bullet hits the plate Both shatter, the Plate is next to useless in the area around where the bullet strikes with only the periphery chunks of plate being large enough to stop further hits. The Fragments of the Bullet then fly through the shattered plate to be caught by the Thick layers of Kevlar underneath.

 

SAPI does not Laugh off Tungsten Carbide AP Rounds.

 

This was brought up with the Dragon Skin tests, the Dragon Skin armour was Substantially More effective in prolonged combat then standard Interceptor Body Armour that used SAPI's, due to the fact that instead of One Large Plate that would be shattered and rendered useless it had Dozens if not Hundreds of Smaller Plates, covering More of the body as well as giving the user More Maneuverability then Interceptor and it's SAPI. The Only problem with Dragon Skin was what they used to Hold the Plates in place, with it not standing up to corrosive environments and high heat the plates tended to fall out of place. On that point though, I don't see why they couldn't just use a more resilient material to hold the plates in place... it was a revolutionary body armour, that was scrapped.

[Skirmisher]

As I've already stated, I use the Newtons from an M4 and use it for the ME weapons, give it a mass, then I find the velocity.

Um... Physics doesn't work that way... Is this the same as that time you said the Castle Bravo nuclear test in 1954 used a Multi-Gigaton Nuke?

 

Because you can't use Newtons like that.

 

 

And just what proof do you have?

 

Interesting, the recoil of this rifle is pretty high, and several ME guns have high recoil too, so using this gun's recoil and giving the sniper pellet a mass of 100 milligrams, I get 374,978 Joules.

Except it doesn't have that...

 

The Heckler & Koch PSG1 uses 7.62x51mm NATO Rounds which as you can see have a Typical Kinetic Energy of ~3500 joules, not 374,978 joules.

 

Not only that but Recoil is a Horrible Way of deriving energy.

 

Take for instance the Thompson Sub Machinegun. It had a Kick like a mule with it's .45 ACP round, the Tremendous Recoil mad it next to useless at even medium range on Automatic Fire, and had to be shot in short bursts. This is why SMG's have stuck to lower powered rounds like the 9mm.

 

Until the TDI Vector came along. It used Newer, Better Recoil absorption technology to allow it the ability to fire the .45 ACP round just as good as other SMG's firing their smaller rounds.

 

 

Heavier bullets? False. They use FMJ bullets, which are LESS THAN 10 GRAMS. You aren't looking at even 4 kilojoules, yet you think THIS is enough to violently blow up one's head.

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

 

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

 

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.

 

 

But you can quantify that armor? You can't, so how would you know that it hitting in the gut suggests it isn't a great feat when you don't know the actual durability of that part?

And how can you know the Speed or Weight of a Bullet you know Nothing about, and have not even tried to quantify with estimates based on a probable field of data?

 

Using Recoil to figure it out... Really!

 

 

Oh wow, kevlar! Apparently that is comparable to ME armor- No it isn't.

Ok then, what are they made out of? Hard Suits say Ceramics, but that's only for Medium and Heavy armours. Those suits were fairly hard to tell what they were but they looked like Light Armour, meaning Soft and Not Ceramic, and as such much easier to penetrate then Ceramic Armours.

[Guest ricrery]

Um... Physics doesn't work that way... Is this the same as that time you said the Castle Bravo nuclear test in 1954 used a Multi-Gigaton Nuke?

 

Because you can't use Newtons like that.

 

Far from that.

 

Newtons are a unit of force and the cause of recoil. Geez, how is this so hard to understand?

 

Except it doesn't have that...

 

The Heckler & Koch PSG1 uses 7.62x51mm NATO Rounds which as you can see have a Typical Kinetic Energy of ~3500 joules, not 374,978 joules.

 

And again I must tell you that kinetic energy doesn't cause the recoil.

 

Plus, you must prove it can do what you claimed.

 

Not only that but Recoil is a Horrible Way of deriving energy.

 

And HOW is it a horrible way of deriving energy? Finding a velocity that gives the bullet similar recoil to another weapon is a horrible way of deriving energy now?

 

Take for instance the Thompson Sub Machinegun. It had a Kick like a mule with it's .45 ACP round, the Tremendous Recoil mad it next to useless at even medium range on Automatic Fire, and had to be shot in short bursts. This is why SMG's have stuck to lower powered rounds like the 9mm.

 

Let's see. A 200 gram slug traveling at 280 m/s. The recoil here is 56 Newtons. No *vulgarity*ing shit it has tremendous recoil.

 

Until the TDI Vector came along. It used Newer, Better Recoil absorption technology to allow it the ability to fire the .45 ACP round just as good as other SMG's firing their smaller rounds.

 

Let me see the specs. Also, you want me to use momentum from now on instead of Newtons?

[Guest ricrery]

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

 

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

 

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.

 

Are you claiming that a gun with no a tenth of a Newton of recoil can throw back people or prevent sniping from occurring?

 

And how can you know the Speed or Weight of a Bullet you know Nothing about, and have not even tried to quantify with estimates based on a probable field of data?

 

YOU made the claim that they were the size of grains of sand, so I used an analysis that gave them a mass that made sense from that. Are you changing your mind so easily now when it doesn't benefit you?

 

Using Recoil to figure it out... Really!

 

Look, a 1 grain pellet traveling at 600 m/s is causing that gun to fly upwards despite being held downwards, OH MY GOD.

 

Ok then, what are they made out of? Hard Suits say Ceramics, but that's only for Medium and Heavy armours. Those suits were fairly hard to tell what they were but they looked like Light Armour, meaning Soft and Not Ceramic, and as such much easier to penetrate then Ceramic Armours.

 

Source, right now.

[Skirmisher]

Far from that.

 

Newtons are a unit of force and the cause of recoil. Geez, how is this so hard to understand?

 

You failed Math Class didn't you...

 

 

Plus, you must prove it can do what you claimed.

Um... I did, it was in my post. I provided the links stating Exactly Everything. I proved what I claimed.

 

 

And HOW is it a horrible way of deriving energy?

Because Energy is what you are trying to derive, Kinetic Energy as it's not Potential Energy. This means a Rather simple formula to find out How Much Kinetic Energy an object has.

 

 

 

Let me see the specs. Also, you want me to use momentum from now on instead of Newtons?

Kriss TDI Super V

 

 

 

Are you claiming that a gun with no a tenth of a Newton of recoil can throw back people or prevent sniping from occurring?

No I'm saying that when using your method there are Too many variables to deal with.

 

You have to contend with the weight of the gun, the weight of the person firing, the stance that they take, the strength of the person firing, the ground that they're on, the skill of the user, the acceleration of the bullet AND THEN the mass of the bullet and it's muzzle velocity.

 

All of these have an effect on the weapons Perceived Recoil.

 

 

It's the Difference between

 

 

and

 

 

 

You would see the first one and say, OMG that's got soooo~ much Recoil! It has to have OMGINSANE Joules!

 

And then you'd see the Second one and say, Pesh, that's not as powerful as the first one. The First one had so much recoil that the gun flew back and hit her, and this guys duel wielding them firing multiple shots...

 

 

Except they're the same gun. The same bullets. The same energy.

[Skirmisher]

YOU made the claim that they were the size of grains of sand, so I used an analysis that gave them a mass that made sense from that. Are you changing your mind so easily now when it doesn't benefit you?

Yeah, a Mass of 0.00001kg to 0.0001kg seems accurate.

 

Except you don't know the speed... all you know is that it's Hyper velocity. That's it. That's all there is. There is nothing more than that.

 

We can guess based on appropriate levels of damage that they inflict. As such that headshot you showed Screams 3000 to 4000 joules since the PSG1 can achieve the Same Result, and it has That much energy behind it's bullets.

 

 

Source, right now.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

"Medium to heavy armor—and almost all turian and krogan armor—is classified as 'hardsuit' because it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body."

 

As for their Similarity to Light armour then

 

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/1889/gun2.jpg

 

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2010...-human-Onyx.png

 

 

 

My only problem with this is the fact that I have no context with what's going on, or who these people are, what's firing at them, or even if their Armour was actually mentioned in the story this panel was taken from.

 

It's next to useless.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Um... No... no it doesn't...

 

The Small Arms Protective Insert is a Ceramic Plate that is used to defeat Modern Armour Piercing Bullets... except that It doesn't work that good. One Plate can only take on Average Three Strikes from Standard 7.62x51mm NATO Ball Cartridges, and that's only if it strikes Different parts of the Plate. What happens with Ceramic Plates is that once the Bullet hits the plate Both shatter, the Plate is next to useless in the area around where the bullet strikes with only the periphery chunks of plate being large enough to stop further hits. The Fragments of the Bullet then fly through the shattered plate to be caught by the Thick layers of Kevlar underneath.

 

SAPI does not Laugh off Tungsten Carbide AP Rounds.

 

This was brought up with the Dragon Skin tests, the Dragon Skin armour was Substantially More effective in prolonged combat then standard Interceptor Body Armour that used SAPI's, due to the fact that instead of One Large Plate that would be shattered and rendered useless it had Dozens if not Hundreds of Smaller Plates, covering More of the body as well as giving the user More Maneuverability then Interceptor and it's SAPI. The Only problem with Dragon Skin was what they used to Hold the Plates in place, with it not standing up to corrosive environments and high heat the plates tended to fall out of place. On that point though, I don't see why they couldn't just use a more resilient material to hold the plates in place... it was a revolutionary body armour, that was scrapped.

 

*sigh* Alright, my mistake. I was using SAPI plates as a generic term. Lots of correcting to do here.

 

Alright, example one: http://www.specialfo...late-p-563.html

 

Here's the one I should point out... "NATO 7.62 x 51 M61 AP ammunition - 6 shots stopped"

 

Hmm... that's a 7.62 NATO round with an armor-piercing core... and the same plate stopped six of them. Hell, it's not even US-military issue. Add on to that the fact that it only offers Level III protection, not even the next step up to Level IV...

 

Exhibit two: the ESAPI plate. Look it up.

 

 

Alright, Dragonskin. You should do your research. The thing was a complete and utter flop. It was heavier than the standard vest (more maneuverable my ass), its adhesive failed with hot temperatures or by exposure to sweat, etc. And your claim that it holds up better under multiple hits is also utter BS, seeing as how if one scale fails the entire system pretty much begins to fail. Pinnacle made an armor system that was novel in some ways, but crappy in overall execution. When the Army called them out on it, they cried "CONSPIRACY!" to make themselves look like the victim and to paint the Army as the big bad villains.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

 

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

 

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.

 

*sigh*

 

Armor-piercing rounds are generally lighter in weight than FMJ rounds. Only a small part of the total projectile is the tungsten core. They use tungsten carbide for its sectional density, not its mass. Besides, you WANT that velocity for an AP round. I don't see any reason for the UNSC to drastically change this process, and you're just giving out more conjecture.

[Stranglehold-prime]

Marcus goes down in the beginning. He's not quite in the same league as the other two.

 

At that point it's Shepard vs. Chief... and I really don't feel like going through that again: http://www.electricferret.com/forum/index....0&hl=suites

 

How is he not in the same league? The Cog has advanced tech. I played ME and I don't see Shepard weapons as a all out combat fight.

 

Marcus is a good tactician and also he survived lots of things. Shepard weapons are not combat type.(In my opinion)

 

The only thing Shepard has on Marcus is futuristic armor.

 

What class is Shepard in this match?

 

Is he Solider,Vanguard,etc?

 

I see it like this.

 

Master Chief

 

Marcus

 

Shepard.