Master Chief vs Commander Shepard vs Marcus Fenix

[Guest Jason Redfield]

What are you on about, Stranglehold? None of that made sense.

 

How is he not in the same league? The Cog has advanced tech.

Barely more advanced than modern tech. No FTL space travel, more or less conventional weapons, conventional vehicles... I can't readily think of a single piece of tech they have that we don't today.

 

Marcus is a good tactician and also he survived lots of things.

 

What? And Shepard isn't? In the War Hero background, he single-handedly defeated an enemy raid in the Blitz. The first two Mass Effect games are filled with instances of him/her being shown to be a natural leader and excellent tactician, accomplishing a huge amount of "impossible missions". And he's survived odds just as bad if not worse than Marcus has faced.

 

Shepard weapons are not combat type.(In my opinion)

Err... what? I don't understand that. Any weapon is designed for combat. That's kind of the definition of the word. Please explain to me what you mean.

 

Shepard's weapons are considerably more advanced, seeing as how ammo is practically a non-issue, they have extremely high muzzle velocities, varying specialized ammunition types... I could go on.

 

The only thing Shepard has on Marcus is futuristic armor.

Got that right, except for the "only thing" part. You must be forgetting Shepard's kinetic barrier, which would shrug off Lancer rounds rather easily. Then those rounds would have to penetrate the armor, then his reinforced skin, then if they run into the bones... good luck.

 

Shepard's also got a "healing factor" of sorts, advanced sensors, a quicker reaction time, greater physical strength, etc.

 

Marcus is good, but he just isn't in the same league.

[Skirmisher]

*sigh* Alright, my mistake. I was using SAPI plates as a generic term. Lots of correcting to do here.

 

Alright, example one: http://www.specialforceskit.co.uk/store/bu...late-p-563.html

 

Here's the one I should point out... "NATO 7.62 x 51 M61 AP ammunition - 6 shots stopped"

 

Hmm... that's a 7.62 NATO round with an armor-piercing core... and our plate stopped 6 of them. Hell, it's not even US-military issue. Add on to that the fact that it only offers Level III protection, not even Level IV...

 

Exhibit two: the ESAPI plate. Look it up.

 

 

Alright, Dragonskin. You should do your research. The thing was a complete and utter flop. It was heavier than the standard vest (more maneuverable my ass), its adhesive failed with hot temperatures or by exposure to sweat, etc. And your claim that it holds up better under multiple hits is also utter BS, seeing as how if one scale fails the entire system pretty much begins to fail.

Except that they are also rated by conventional Speeds, and Conventional terms of AP... The MA5A-C seems to achieve a much higher Velocity than current weapons with the 7.62 round, and do to having the ability to specially strengthened materials at the molecular level, their tungsten cores could actually be heavier or much harder to shatter with Ceramic inserts. Not only that, but the MA5C has a 32 round clip and most of the time it's Expected to need that whole clip to down a Spartan or Elite (Though mostly because of energy shields)

 

As for Dragon Skin. It wasn't an utter flop, it was just deemed by the military to be too expensive to field and as such disregarded before being targeted with misinformation. It was only a few lbs heavier than Standard Vests, except do to it's Scaled design allowed the wearer to Actually be able to Move around and Breath better. As the SAPI was one solid plate that allowed next to No movement.

 

Of course the Adhesive failed, that's what I said, but being a Much Better design than SAPI they should have used more resilient materials to hold the disks in place.

 

As for the fact that it fails after being shot, that would only be if the adhesive failed. If they used a better material to hold the disks in place then it could easily stand up to whatever was thrown at it.

 

Except I found this to be interesting...

 

Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was also tested the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center. These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 °F (77 °C), then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 minutes prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five rounds of each ammunition type fired against each armor system—one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet (3.0 m):

 

* 5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3,718 feet (1,133 m) per second average velocity.

* 5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3,054 feet (931 m) per second average velocity.

* 7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2,307 feet (703 m) per second average velocity.

* .30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2,736 feet (834 m) per second average velocity.

 

All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.

 

Which begs me to ask... what were the Extra Conditions left off the reports for the tests that the Military placed the Dragon Skin in prior to testing.

 

See to the Military even if Dragon Skin worked they couldn't afford it for All of their troops. Because that would mean that not only did they waste their money on SAPI for the 200,000 troops in the middle east, they now have to by 200,000+ new body armours for them. Body Armour that is about two to three times more expensive than SPAI. I know you'd say that "They're the US Military, they have the money" but the thing is, that's a x4 increase in the budget for Infantry Armour, to them it wouldn't be worth it because that money could go to Ammo, or missiles or tanks, or fuel, or jets, or UAV's. So just by being more expensive the Dragon Skin was doomed to failure...

 

Not only that but the Military has a contract with the guys who make Interceptor, burning them now for this better armour would mean getting burned if they were to come out in the future with a better armour system.

[Guest ricrery]

You failed Math Class didn't you...

 

There is no serious math involved here at all.

 

Um... I did, it was in my post. I provided the links stating Exactly Everything. I proved what I claimed.

 

It tells me nothing about the velocity.

 

Because Energy is what you are trying to derive, Kinetic Energy as it's not Potential Energy. This means a Rather simple formula to find out How Much Kinetic Energy an object has.

 

 

Kinetic energy is used when you KNOW the velocity, but we don't here.

 

Kriss TDI Super V

 

 

Neither of these show head blowing levels of firepower, nor does the latter video even show any actual damage done.

 

No I'm saying that when using your method there are Too many variables to deal with.

 

You have to contend with the weight of the gun, the weight of the person firing, the stance that they take, the strength of the person firing, the ground that they're on, the skill of the user, the acceleration of the bullet AND THEN the mass of the bullet and it's muzzle velocity.

 

1)The weight of the gun is the same as the M4 I'm using as an example.

 

2) Shephard should obviously be heavy enough to prevent it from being a problem.

 

3) This stance is what we see in the game.

 

4) It varies.

 

5) Shephard is obviously very efficient with the weapons he uses.

 

6) The force is what causes the recoil of a gun. The force that goes out of the bullet has to also have affected the gun itself. Acceleration = force/mass. The acceleration of a gun with 3.536 Newtons and a mass of 10 milligrams is 353,600 m/s, as stated before.

[Guest ricrery]

 

and

 

 

 

You would see the first one and say, OMG that's got soooo~ much Recoil! It has to have OMGINSANE Joules!

 

The first one isn't the best to use for discovering the recoil of the gun, obviously. I mean, from the research I did, a single bullet from that gun is 19.44 grams traveling at 420.6 m/s. The recoil from that is over 8 Newtons, which is a lot and obviously the reason of why that occurred in the first video.

 

And then you'd see the Second one and say, Pesh, that's not as powerful as the first one. The First one had so much recoil that the gun flew back and hit her, and this guys duel wielding them firing multiple shots...

 

 

Except they're the same gun. The same bullets. The same energy.

 

That gun has more than twice the force of an M4. Is this supposed to prove that Shephard is weak or something? Of course he's going to be closer to the latter video than the former.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Except that they are also rated by conventional Speeds, and Conventional terms of AP... The MA5A-C seems to achieve a much higher Velocity than current weapons with the 7.62 round, and do to having the ability to specially strengthened materials at the molecular level, their tungsten cores could actually be heavier or much harder to shatter with Ceramic inserts. Not only that, but the MA5C has a 32 round clip and most of the time it's Expected to need that whole clip to down a Spartan or Elite (Though mostly because of energy shields)

All that says to me is more efficient propellant, not necessarily a heavier or drastically denser projectile.

 

*snip*

 

If it was as easy as "let's use better adhesive!", it would've been done. It had more problems than that. And only a "few pounds heavier?" Try more like 20 pounds. Ask any soldier if they want even a few extra pounds in their loadout and tell me what they say. And some added flexibility doesn't matter when it weighs that much. Wearing an Interceptor isn't like walking around in a tin can -- it's not a luxury robe, but let's not go overboard here.

 

As for that test you linked -- I'm well aware of that. OK, maybe Dragonskin isn't a total flop. It works well in one niche -- lab tests in climate-controlled areas when not being worn by a sweating individual. It offers pretty good protection in those circumstances (except when it catastrophically fails, which sometimes happens). Other than that, it is, as I said, a flop.

 

 

http://forums.spaceb...ad.php?t=172395

http://www.professio...ead.php?t=14523

http://op-for.com/20...ragon_sk_1.html

 

All of those are good sources.

 

As for the whole conspiracy with the Army, I used to buy into that, too. While it's maybe true that the Army would rather downplay a new vest for logistical and political reasons, that just isn't the case here. There's completly independent, third-party evidence which points at how bad the stuff is, not just Army research.

[Guest ricrery]

Yeah, a Mass of 0.00001kg to 0.0001kg seems accurate.

 

Except you don't know the speed... all you know is that it's Hyper velocity. That's it. That's all there is. There is nothing more than that.

 

Except we know they cause recoil.

 

We can guess based on appropriate levels of damage that they inflict. As such that headshot you showed Screams 3000 to 4000 joules since the PSG1 can achieve the Same Result, and it has That much energy behind it's bullets.

 

But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules, which gives it a force insufficient to throw back zombie Collectors or prevent the guns from being used like snipers due to recoil. Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.

 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

"Medium to heavy armor—and almost all turian and krogan armor—is classified as 'hardsuit' because it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body."

 

it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body

 

See something wrong with that? They never state to use ceramic plating on the entire suit excluding the areas you claimed to be "weak" and "less defended".

[Guest Jason Redfield]

But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules, which gives it a force insufficient to throw back zombie Collectors or prevent the guns from being used like snipers due to recoil. Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.

 

http://www.spike.com/video/sneak-peek-kill-shot/3378326

 

The second half of that vid has ballistics gel heads being utterly destroyed by what I think are shotgun slugs. I did a rough kinetic energy calc for those slugs, and came up with ~4.267 kilojoules, which is somewhat close to your range. In all likelihood, that's actually too much KE, as I was generous with the numbers. For the show, and judging by the recoil, those are probably lower-powered slugs.

 

Either way, I certainly think it's possible for a bullet with that much energy to violently explode a head. I've seen .308 rounds do similarly against ballistics gel heads, and they fit very nicely into your range.

[Stranglehold-prime]

What are you on about, Stranglehold? None of that made sense.

 

 

Barely more advanced than modern tech. No FTL space travel, more or less conventional weapons, conventional vehicles... I can't readily think of a single piece of tech they have that we don't today.

 

 

 

What? And Shepard isn't? In the War Hero background, he single-handedly defeated an enemy raid in the Blitz. The first two Mass Effect games are filled with instances of him/her being shown to be a natural leader and excellent tactician, accomplishing a huge amount of "impossible missions". And he's survived odds just as bad if not worse than Marcus has faced.

 

 

Err... what? I don't understand that. Any weapon is designed for combat. That's kind of the definition of the word. Please explain to me what you mean.

 

Shepard's weapons are considerably more advanced, seeing as how ammo is practically a non-issue, they have extremely high muzzle velocities, varying specialized ammunition types... I could go on.

 

 

Got that right, except for the "only thing" part. You must be forgetting Shepard's kinetic barrier, which would shrug off Lancer rounds rather easily. Then those rounds would have to penetrate the armor, then his reinforced skin, then if they run into the bones... good luck.

 

Shepard's also got a "healing factor" of sorts, advanced sensors, a quicker reaction time, greater physical strength, etc.

 

Marcus is good, but he just isn't in the same league.

 

What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

[Indolent]

What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

Shepard only dies too easily if the player's not so good with him. Its called cover.

 

And I recall upgrades for these weapons. I remember adding on two of the best version of the upgrade that greatly reduced the heat that it produced, making it barely non-existent, for the assault rifle.

[Skirmisher]

*Ship*

Yeah, basically what it boils down to is that the Both Sides put alot of effort and money into painting it black and white.

 

Pinnacle stated that it was superior, even through their suspension rig for the disks was horrible and the plates Denatured under sweat and diesel fuel. But that could EASILY be fixed with a proper rig and a coat of enamel.

 

But the Military was stung by the PR campaign that Pinnacle sprung on them and decided to utterly annihilate them, regardless of what benefits their armour system could provide.

 

As for Weight, the Dragon Skin is only 70% heavier than Current Interceptor body armour. However, the added weight is actually from the more coverage that it provides. That if Interceptor actually provided additional coverage it would weigh almost as much as Dragon Skin.

 

 

The only flop about Dragon Skin is the childishness around it that polarized the discussion and basically Destroyed the Idea.

 

Frankly if I were to have to go into combat, I would buy Dragon Skin, strip out the plates, paint them in a hard coat of enamel that's sweat resistant, then sew up a new vest to hold them in the same pattern as it came in... something that doesn't fall apart in hot or cold temperatures...

 

 

Except we know they cause recoil.

Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons. They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons. Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners, and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has.

 

Best to stick to the Effect of the Weapon and not the amount of Recoil it generates. As such, Exploding a head can be done with as little as several thousand joules of pure Kinetic Energy.

 

 

But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules... *snip (Game Mechanics are non-canon)* ...Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.

Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled.

 

A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill... An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim.

 

Also here

 

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/swat-vs-gsg-9/37917

 

Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles.

 

 

it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body

 

See something wrong with that? They never state to use ceramic plating on the entire suit excluding the areas you claimed to be "weak" and "less defended".

Yes... and the Abdomen is a Flexible Part of the Body... Thus it wouldn't have those Thick Ceramic Plates covering it. The Abdomen was where that man was hit with the Threw and Threw shot. This would mean that he was hit in a Weak and Less Defended part of the Armour.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Yeah, basically what it boils down to is that the Both Sides put alot of effort and money into painting it black and white.

 

Pinnacle stated that it was superior, even through their suspension rig for the disks was horrible and the plates Denatured under sweat and diesel fuel. But that could EASILY be fixed with a proper rig and a coat of enamel.

 

But the Military was stung by the PR campaign that Pinnacle sprung on them and decided to utterly annihilate them, regardless of what benefits their armour system could provide.

 

As for Weight, the Dragon Skin is only 70% heavier than Current Interceptor body armour. However, the added weight is actually from the more coverage that it provides. That if Interceptor actually provided additional coverage it would weigh almost as much as Dragon Skin.

 

 

The only flop about Dragon Skin is the childishness around it that polarized the discussion and basically Destroyed the Idea.

 

Frankly if I were to have to go into combat, I would buy Dragon Skin, strip out the plates, paint them in a hard coat of enamel that's sweat resistant, then sew up a new vest to hold them in the same pattern as it came in... something that doesn't fall apart in hot or cold temperatures...

 

As I said before, if it were that easy, it would have been fixed and you'd see Dragonskin vests all over the place. That's not the case. Indeed, the only organization that's purchased them thus far is the CIA. While that would seem to advocate its use, they did this before the results showing its problems came out. I can bet you those vests didn't see much use.

 

70% added weight is HUGE. No way in hell I'd wear something that heavy. And even if you just compare vest to vest, Dragonskin is still heavier. Modular deltoid and axillary protectors and such exist for the Interceptor, too, you know.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

You realize that's all game mechanics, right? Game mechanics don't factor into these discussions.

 

And Mass Effect is plenty shooter, not just RPG. And the weapons were only inaccurate at first. Later on in the game they were amazing, and heat production/recoil was minimal, bordering on non-existent in some cases. And Shepard really doesn't die that easily assuming you're not on an outrageous difficulty and you're playing smart.

[Skirmisher]

As I said before, if it were that easy, it would have been fixed and you'd see Dragonskin vests all over the place. That's not the case. Indeed, the only organization that's purchased them thus far is the CIA. While that would seem to advocate its use, they did this before the results showing its problems came out. I can bet you those vests didn't see much use.

 

70% added weight is HUGE. No way in hell I'd wear something that heavy. And even if you just compare vest to vest, Dragonskin is still heavier. Modular deltoid and axillary protectors and such exist for the Interceptor, too, you know.

The problem is with just fixing it, is as I said the Childish Nature that has surrounded it all. Pinnacle are a bunch of childish morons who want it to be Their Armour the way They Designed it... and even if they were to fix it like that the Military is still of the Childish Nature of not wanting them in their club house because they were yelled at and called names.

 

This whole thing is so steeped in RP Campaigns and Counter PR Campaigns from BOTH sides, that the simple truth has been lost.

 

 

Yes, and how heavy would interceptor be if you actually were to include those deltoid and axillary plates?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

The problem is with just fixing it, is as I said the Childish Nature that has surrounded it all. Pinnacle are a bunch of childish morons who want it to be Their Armour the way They Designed it... and even if they were to fix it like that the Military is still of the Childish Nature of not wanting them in their club house because they were yelled at and called names.

 

This whole thing is so steeped in RP Campaigns and Counter PR Campaigns from BOTH sides, that the simple truth has been lost.

 

 

Yes, and how heavy would interceptor be if you actually were to include those deltoid and axillary plates?

 

Welcome to the military-industrial complex, my friend.

 

Not too much heavier, considering that I haven't heard of any complaints regarding them, even from my (completely unbiased) acquaintance in Army spec ops. They're rather widely-issued now, in fact.

[Guest ricrery]

I'll get back to this once I start and finish reading Revelation.

[Skirmisher]

I'll get back to this once I start and finish reading Revelation.

Remember, when you quote provide a couple sentences before and after, or at least mention the Context. Then give the page number of where you found the quote.

[Guest ricrery]

Oh to hell with it, I might not get to reading it until it's halfway through November.

 

Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons. They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons. Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners, and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has.

 

1) "Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons"

 

This requires evidence. The standard way of finding the velocity is to divide the force by the mass.

 

2) "They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons."

 

Ditto.

 

3) "Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners"

 

 

Again, evidence is needed.

 

4) "and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has."

 

Ugh.

 

Best to stick to the Effect of the Weapon and not the amount of Recoil it generates. As such, Exploding a head can be done with as little as several thousand joules of pure Kinetic Energy.

 

In the same form that the comic showed?

 

Also, I like how you claimed that throwing back Husks was a GAME MECHANIC which is not canon, despite claiming before that Starcraft's nukes can only blow up a small base, putting them at low kilotons at best. Double standards, you know.

 

Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled.

 

A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill... An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim.

 

Also here

 

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/swat-vs-gsg-9/37917

 

Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles.

 

1) "Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled."

 

And you can't just claim that it doesn't work differently than a normal gun does without evidcence.

 

2) "A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill..."

 

Which it wouldn't generate if it has a pretty small amount of recoil in the first place, wouldn't you say?

 

3) "An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim."

 

Yeah, and one of them slowly goes up while firing in bursts despite Shephard's attempts to keep it down, and he CAN'T stop that.

 

4) "Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles."

 

Blowing up heads in several shots... Alright... But do you think that is comparable to the comic showing a Turian's head blown apart into a wave of blood?

[Guest Jason Redfield]

4) "Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles."

 

Blowing up heads in several shots... Alright... But do you think that is comparable to the comic showing a Turian's head blown apart into a wave of blood?

 

Did you watch the vid I linked with the shotgun slugs? And the whole heads blowing up thing is really subjective. I could see a .308 having a similar effect, particularly at close range or with a hollow-point bullet.

[Guest ricrery]

Did you watch the vid I linked with the shotgun slugs? And the whole heads blowing up thing is really subjective. I could see a .308 having a similar effect, particularly at close range or with a hollow-point bullet.

 

Yes I did, and only after several shots did it really start bleeding. In the comic, One shot turned a Turian's head into a wave of blood.

[Guest Jason Redfield]

Yes I did, and only after several shots did it really start bleeding. In the comic, One shot turned a Turian's head into a wave of blood.

 

A lot of the rounds seemed to be grazing hits. When the GSG-9 guy manages to actually get a good hit through the top of the dome, the head explodes.

 

And the head exploding may be "artistic license" -- odd that the round doesn't pass through the head but manages clean punch-throughs on armored soldiers...

 

Besides, a turian's head/skull may very well be different. Maybe the round was a high-explosive one. Too many variables IMO.

 

EDIT: googling around for ballistics gel evidence pics, I (unfortunately) happened upon a picture of an insurgent that took a .308 to the head. The pic is absolutely gruesome, and I won't post it. If you want to see it, I'll send it to you in a PM. Essentially, everything above the mouth looks as if it's been vaporized.

[Indolent]

CAN I SEE THIS PICTURE JASON?